THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

  • 29 Mar 2024, 07:40
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Regarding personal preferences  (Read 53979 times)

NiMRoD420

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #50 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:50 »

Logged

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #51 on: 30 Dec 2006, 03:12 »

How do you mean, metals other appeal?

By "other" I mean the fantastical qualities you described. I'm talking about your thesis that a significant chunk of metal's appeal comes from the fact that it outlines such dramatically different circumstances than the average person's experience, and that through that detailing of a contrasting experience to the ordinary it offers transcendence.

That Beowulf dream is fucking awesome.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #52 on: 30 Dec 2006, 07:45 »

Every single word Sargon the Terrible has written makes me want to torture kittens, but Fuck Me, that is a very appealing dream.
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #53 on: 30 Dec 2006, 08:03 »

I know, I generally think of him as a few degrees above 'bigoted fuckwit', but that editorial makes a reasonably good point, and that dream is just so cool.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #54 on: 30 Dec 2006, 08:16 »

Thus far there has been no response to my assertion that Khar's argument about metal's "other" appeal has remarkable parallels with hip-hop. I think we can all agree this thread would be better if people responded to things I said.

I'm being terribly elitist by posting as such I suppose, but Hip-Hop in its most mainstream form is based around the degredation of women and the constant need for violence for the sake of showing off. In addition, it further stereotypes the difference between white people and black people.

Metal, on the other hand, is a commentary on religion, mythology and history that fails to comment on the differences between genetically differing groups of human beings. Both genres prefer to have an agressive presentation, but there the similarities end.
Logged

Storm Rider

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,075
  • Twelve stories high, made of radiation
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #55 on: 30 Dec 2006, 08:29 »

Tommy, I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to call Khar's use of the term 'hipster' a stereotype for the soft-minded when you routinely dismiss metal, which in itself is as varied as indie, as being for fifteen-year-olds and people who live with their parents. In jest or not, it's condescending and going directly against what you're arguing here.
Logged
Quote
[22:06] Shane: We only had sex once
[22:06] Shane: and she was wicked just...lay there

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #56 on: 30 Dec 2006, 08:59 »

I know, I generally think of him as a few degrees above 'bigoted fuckwit', but that editorial makes a reasonably good point, and that dream is just so cool.

Is there any chance you could link to that whole article?
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #57 on: 30 Dec 2006, 13:40 »

I'm being terribly elitist by posting as such I suppose, but Hip-Hop in its most mainstream form is based around the degredation of women and the constant need for violence for the sake of showing off. In addition, it further stereotypes the difference between white people and black people.

Metal, on the other hand, is a commentary on religion, mythology and history that fails to comment on the differences between genetically differing groups of human beings. Both genres prefer to have an agressive presentation, but there the similarities end.

No, you're not being elitist, you're participating in a civil discussion, which is appreciated! However I do have to disagree with some of your points.

I would say that by comparing hip-hop in its most mainstream form to all of metal you're starting off a bit shakily. The mainstream is the tip of the cultural iceberg, really. The second thing is the assertion that degredation of women is constant and violence exists for the sake of showing off. If you look at a lot of hip-hop records an awful lot are actually celebrations of women, and at the very least are no more degrading than the average objectifying MOR rock song. Meanwhile the violence is a result of circumstance, something that a lot of metal can't claim. The rappers who talk about violence grew up in violence. Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?

Hip-hop isn't always about genetic differences either, though because of its roots in black America it often has to at least take those differences into account. You want to talk about the mainstream? How big of a hit was Kanye West's "Jesus Walks"?

(Oh, and as an interesting aside, hip-hop and metal both owe something to previous black music in America. While the MC tradition came partially from Jamaican tradition, the music of early hip-hop could be traced from funk to soul to rock'n'roll to jazz to blues to field hollers. Metal starts at rock and has to work its way back too, it just also has to switch threads so it can go back to romantic, baroque and other classical music.)

Hip-hop should create no more stereotypes to the culturally literate individual than metal does.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #58 on: 30 Dec 2006, 15:24 »

I would say that by comparing hip-hop in its most mainstream form to all of metal you're starting off a bit shakily. The mainstream is the tip of the cultural iceberg, really. The second thing is the assertion that degredation of women is constant and violence exists for the sake of showing off. If you look at a lot of hip-hop records an awful lot are actually celebrations of women, and at the very least are no more degrading than the average objectifying MOR rock song. Meanwhile the violence is a result of circumstance, something that a lot of metal can't claim. The rappers who talk about violence grew up in violence. Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?

Comparing it to all of mainstream metal is a bit low, to be sure, but even comparing it to the political commentaries of Metallica, the historical tellings of Iron Maiden and the religious questionings of Slayer the mainstream suggests that metal isn't quite as dumbheaded as people would like to think. I know there's different messages contained within less mainstream rap and I celebrate that by listening to it when it's presented to me, but the sad fact of the matter is that unless you dig for it, rap is fairly bankrupt of real meaning - arguably like most music.


(Oh, and as an interesting aside, hip-hop and metal both owe something to previous black music in America. While the MC tradition came partially from Jamaican tradition, the music of early hip-hop could be traced from funk to soul to rock'n'roll to jazz to blues to field hollers. Metal starts at rock and has to work its way back too, it just also has to switch threads so it can go back to romantic, baroque and other classical music.)

"Blues is the roots, the rest is just fruits" - some guy at my school.

I suppose both are guilty of celebrating race (i.e Viking Metal) and neither of them are guilty for real discrimination on that point.

The folly with this argument as a whole is that when you dig to the bottom of the pit, you'll find the same amount of emotional and intellectual depth in both genres. As far as what is being popularly broadcast, however, I maintain that rap is going to be more damaged in the long run due to the attitudes of today's mainstream artists narrowing the opening for good music within the genre - but to be fair, the nu-metal explosion seems to be doing the same thing for metal.
Logged

Storm Rider

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,075
  • Twelve stories high, made of radiation
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #59 on: 30 Dec 2006, 15:30 »

Nu-metal is pretty much done at this point, now the scene is just flooded with cookie-cutter metalcore bands. It's a bit better, but not much.
Logged
Quote
[22:06] Shane: We only had sex once
[22:06] Shane: and she was wicked just...lay there

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #60 on: 30 Dec 2006, 15:32 »

As far as I'm concerned, Nu-Metal isn't done until my friends stop pelting me with it or until those same friends are dead. : |
Logged

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #61 on: 30 Dec 2006, 20:50 »

Don't blame the rest of the world for your dumbass friends.
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #62 on: 30 Dec 2006, 21:20 »

Quote from: Johnny C
Who is a better candidate to discuss it, someone from urban Compton or someone from rural Finland?

I know it's not a real point, but it would only really be a valid one if metal and hip-hop addressed the same kinds of violence. As for the differences in how they talk about violence, it upholds what I said originally. Hip-hop talks about real, gritty violence, whilst Metal talks about historical conflicts of fantasised, epic combats. To some who'd experienced real violence, metal may seem cartoonish, naieve, whatever, whilst to others it might not. Back to the aesthetics then. Remember also that at least 90% of metal at least, despite the level of detail, is in fact anti-war. It's normally more about horrors than glory, and even when it is, such as, say Ancient Rite's 'Victory or Valhalla' or 'North Sea', it often prominently notes the cost of victory and doesn't seem glad about the deaths. Right now, the only pro-war metal songs I can think of that come off as actually serious are all by NSBM or borderline fascists.

I suppose both are guilty of celebrating race (i.e Viking Metal) and neither of them are guilty for real discrimination on that point.

Viking metal is more of a celebration of culture and religion than race, although that element is present. It's not quite so bare-faced though, and there always seems to be not any real exclusivity: I mean, I'm sure plenty, maybe even the majority, of Forefather fans live outside the UK, and they get thrills from their music despite the very specific lyrics of songs like 'When Our England Died' and 'Proud to be Proud'. Australian Bathory fans can hardly be called sons of the north. I suppose its the same with a lot of hip-hop however, with things like Lady Sovereign getting big in the states: there's no way her lyrics can really address her audiences concerns head-on, so there must be something else there. Vis a vis the whole issue of racial or cultural pride in music, I stand divided. On one hand, I'm opposed to the essentially false categorisation and divisions that the world creates, of which nations and, to a lesser extent, races, are examples. On the other hand, if music or any other art form genuinely manages to uplift someone and make them feel good to be themselves, without denigrating anyone else, then I'm not sure I really see the problem with it, except that is probably far too easily integrated in to the cultural landscape of people who genuinely are racist. I'm a huge fan of folk music, I can see the point, and appeal, in celebrating your heritage and roots. People argue that it doesn't make sense to be proud of something you have no control over, but then again, it is a part of you, it's your culture and upbringing, and at the end of the day I think if everyone was more sure about who they were, cultural exchange would be much easier, coming from a more mutual footing. In a way, like my limited support for the ideas of localism, it's a strike against globalisation and the ghastly prospect of a monoculture. In an ideal world, people should be able to co-operate and work together without being the same, and maybe cultural pride is a part of that? I certainly note, and yes, this sounds like one of those two-faced conservative things to say, but the only people you see being denigrated for being proud for who they are in the western world is white people. Yes, there is a political climate in which 'white pride' is inextricably linked to the most utterly mindless form of racism going, but if so, shouldn't there be an alternative way for people to express their roots, without needing to hate and fear others? I think its the lack of something like that that fuels white supremacy in a way. I mean, look how comparatively fewer true black supremacists (a group anyone should find equally contemptible) there are compared to white supremacists, despite the fact that black supremacism has in fact crept far more in to the musical mainstream than white supremacism (Kill whitey!). Or has it? To be fair, I'm not really qualified to talk about race issues, I'm a white middle class boy from one of the last racially diverse areas of the UK (as a half-filipino friend once said, "I'll never get why my mum travelled three thousand miles to come here"). I get most of my understanding of it in the US from occasionally browsing through the Anti-Defamation League, the Southern Poverty Law Center and other such organisations websites. I still prefer to think of it as to do with culture rather than skin colour by the way, because I'm convinced thats what it is.
« Last Edit: 30 Dec 2006, 21:26 by KharBevNor »
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #63 on: 30 Dec 2006, 23:02 »

That, ladies and germs, is a good post.

(although "kill whitey" is almost definitely a black panthers thing rather than a hip-hop thing)
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #64 on: 30 Dec 2006, 23:15 »

I've never sat through a whole album of hip-hop, so my information can only really come from what I read, which, I freely admit, may be a load of horseshit, because, hey, a lot of the things written on the internet are. However, this and the sources it reference seem enough for me to judge that black artists have got away with saying things that, if said by a white person, would have relegated their musical career straight to the Resistance Records back catalogue and a nasty article by the ADL. I'm doing some further research now to see what real substance there is of this: I'm not going to accuse these artists of racism, just say they seem to have been involved with black supremacist organisations. No way I can really call that as inherently bad, given the histories of some of my favourite artists, but it does seem these people are more mainstream. May just be misinterpretation or someone picking up some backhanded republican rhetoric though. Can anyone suggest some tracks they might be referring to or something?
« Last Edit: 30 Dec 2006, 23:19 by KharBevNor »
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #65 on: 30 Dec 2006, 23:57 »

The sources are fairly bogus. They're some guy's Netscape account that is accusing Rage Against The Machine, who appear to have at least one white guy in their ranks, of promoting anti-white violence. It also has this Ice-T quote and analysis:

Quote
He finishes his speech by relieving blacks of some or all fundamental responsibility and passing it off onto whites. He issues his ultimatums as follows: "or possibly am I intelligent enough to only hold the conditions of the ghetto itself to blame; not; who creates the conditions; who stops affirmative action and welfare; who loves the three-strikes law; didn't see them at the Million Man March. . . . Armageddon is near; I am the fourth rider of the apocalypse. . . . I hate you; you hate me. . . . we're gonna have nothing if we don't make a change soon. . . . racism is the number one enemy of earth; there's only one race, the human race; and if we don't get it together soon, this song is true: we are living in the last days." In the long quote above, Ice-T doubts the sincerity of whites because not many whites showed up at the Million Man March, and he tops off the sincerity test, which is steeped in his violent racism, by not denouncing Louis Farrakhan anywhere on his album.

If this guy was in my AP English class I would have laughed him out of the room. What about the bit where he says "racism is the number one enemy of earth / there's only one race, the human race / and if we don't get it together soon, this song is true / we are living in the last days"? Dude doesn't even address it. Really you can't just pick and choose lines and base wild accusations of violence-inciting racism off of them. The entire song is important.

The other article sourced includes this gem:

Quote
A ?rapper? is typically a talentless black who wants people to subsidize him, so that he doesn?t have to get a j-o-b. Rap aka Hip-Hop (r/h) has refuted the racist stereotype, according to which blacks have ?natural rhythm,? and revealed that the average black cannot sing, dance, compose music or write lyrics any better than the average white. Rappers? rants often consist of nothing but narcissistic self-promotion, where the performer brags about himself in the third person. When r/h recordings do include something recognizable as music, it is invariably through plagiarizing someone else?s earlier recording, which is known in r/h by the euphemism ?sampling.?

Why anyone would pay for r/h? When Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald were the world?s greatest singers, there was no question why fans would buy their records, rather than those cut by any random drunk warbling from a barstool. But with r/h, the hierarchy of talent, from tone-deaf amateur to virtuoso, collapsed. But worse even than in an aesthetic democracy, in r/h, the tone-deaf pretend-artist is king, the virtuoso an outcast.

The great singers of the Big Band Era and the Great American Songbook loved America, and in spite (or because) of having had to work like dogs before becoming rich, tended to have an attitude of gratitude for the blessings that had been bestowed upon them. Rappers, by contrast, are strangers to hard work and talent, and tend to revel in racism, violence, misogyny and anti-Americanism.

So much of r/h sounds like a parody of illiterate street blacks. But this, er, stuff is scribbled by people who haven?t an ironic bone in their bodies.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #66 on: 31 Dec 2006, 00:27 »

Hmn, fair enough. I didn't read that page very closely, just the quotes one, which, I must say, seemed fairly transparent.

"Deal with the devil with my motherfucking steel [handgun]. . . . white man is something I tried to study, but I got my hands bloody, yeah. . . . I met Farrakhan and had dinner";
"When Will They Shoot"; Ice Cube, The Predator, 1992, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

"I love black women and I hate fucking crackers. . . . I destroyed a whole city like Sodom and Gomorrah or Babylon. . . . devils choke from the gunsmoke. . . . I'm swelling devils' melons. . . . send your asses to Kings County; solo pro-morgue supplier";
"Graveyard Chamber"; Gravediggaz, 6 Feet Deep, 1997 reissue of a 1994 album, Gee Street Records, BMG Distribution, BMG Entertainment, Bertelsmann AG, Germany.


And so forth. Fair enough, this guy is cherry picking, he's got an agenda, and he's actually only quoting from five or six artists, but some of these are pretty popular and high charting. 6 Feet Deep, the Gravediggaz album that quotes from, got to number 36 in the overall billboard charts. And I mean, you really can't interprate around 'I hate fucking crackers'. I'm not even sure if this is a point I want to make, or where I'm going from it. I'm just sayin'. I know you can tear apart metal as all sorts of prejudiced, but this is pretty blatant.


EDIT: I found this, seems quite interesting and scholarly, not entirely related to what we're discussing, but its giving me some sort of insight.
« Last Edit: 31 Dec 2006, 00:32 by KharBevNor »
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #67 on: 31 Dec 2006, 00:56 »

The link isn't loading for me, Khar.

I'm not sure about that "fucking crackers" line. In the context it appears it could be either "I hate whites" or "I hate having sex with white women." And you don't exactly hear about Gravediggaz very often. Besides, keep in mind that these lyrics were written during gangsta rap's heyday - ever since backpackers have started gaining credence there's been a significant shift towards attitudes of "let's change these conditions" rather than "let's place blame for them." Certainly there has been less support for the Nation of Islam and a general reduction in anti-white sentiment over the last few years, if only because whites make up a significant chunk of rap's audience. Why attack your listeners when you can appeal to them?

Really I think you ought to give at least one rap or hip-hop record a full listen. Pick something like Kanye West, Rhymefest, K-Os, Jurassic 5 or Common and go from there. Or pick something like Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Public Enemy or Grandmaster Flash. Hip-hop is a really diverse and fascinating genre.
« Last Edit: 31 Dec 2006, 00:58 by Johnny C »
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #68 on: 31 Dec 2006, 01:17 »

I've heard all but two of those artists. I really have given rap a listen. I just don't like it, and I've outlined reasons why I probably don't earlier. It doesn't push any musical buttons for me, I find it hard to respect its artistry at least half the time, it rarely talks about things I care about, it doesn't even fit in very well with how I like to dance. I just don't like rap. I might like one song here and there for one reason or another (I think Goldie Lookin' Chain are funny every now and then). But, in general, it just isn't for me.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Storm Rider

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,075
  • Twelve stories high, made of radiation
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #69 on: 31 Dec 2006, 01:46 »

Tommy, I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to call Khar's use of the term 'hipster' a stereotype for the soft-minded when you routinely dismiss metal, which in itself is as varied as indie, as being for fifteen-year-olds and people who live with their parents. In jest or not, it's condescending and going directly against what you're arguing here.

Are you sure? Can you find me examples of this? There might be but I don't think so. Look through my posts and read the comments in the context they were made.
I think you are wrong about this. I really do.

There are avenues of communication in this community beyond actual posting. The remarks in question were made in Gabbly, and numerous times, I might add.

Not that I would do anything stupid like hold a grudge because of that.
Logged
Quote
[22:06] Shane: We only had sex once
[22:06] Shane: and she was wicked just...lay there

jcknbl

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #70 on: 31 Dec 2006, 03:29 »


Hipsters (and yes, I know that is a generalised term as hipsters do not self-define, and it covers a good range of people, but it is a category I will have to employ to say anything useful, to be honest) seem to enjoy the cultural trappings of the thing, rather than the thing itself. The hipster finds it impossible to seperate metal from the context in which he understands it: Maiden shirts with the sleeves torn off, denim and leather, pabst blue ribbon, bad hair, etc. etc. and in the musical sense the cheesyness, bad lyrics, etc. There always seems to be a certain level of 'I LOVE THE 80's' to the stereotypical Hispter's (lets call him SH from now on) appreciation of metal. There isn't any sort of emotional connection with the music, which is why our SH will probably hate guitar heroics, because he can't ever see past them as 'masturbation'.

I'm still pretty skeptical of you contention that "the Hipster" is at all useful as a representation of real people. I sort of would like you to name some people on this forum who you consider hipsters- and I'm not saying that to call you out or something I just think it might help to clarify what you mean. Naming people could obviously lead to some flames and silly posts so I understand if you don't. Still 80% of this forum is hipsters? I don't think 80% of this forum is out of high school- that certainly contradicts my conception of hipsters.

But I'll accept the term for a moment to further the discussion on your other points-So the Hipster either refuses to enjoy metal qua metal and only enjoys it only as an ironic spectacle OR the Hipster does enjoys a metal act sincerely (say Agalloch) in which case they're actually divorcing the music from their conception of metal? If o the caricature you've created can't appreciate metal BY DEFINITION which makes any further discussion using your archetype impossible. I think its more likely that 1. bands like Agalloch and Opeth allow those who aren't metal fans reconceptualize metal and appreciate it outside of any "ironic context" in which they previously understood metal and 2. that the so-called "ironic appreciation" is a little more nuanced than you make it out to be. That is I sort of see where your coming from. However, I think what really happens is that people genuinely enjoy some metal but can't help viewing it with some kind of cultural-historical context. The result isn't a mocking disposition torward metal but rather a "wow this music is a little outside my reality and these people seem to take it rather seriously". The response isn't so much laughter as it is a blush. And I'm not sure this doesn't exist to an extent among metal fans. Do you really not chortle at "to that place where cunning lingers"? Even that Sargon the Terrible guy pointed out that the Beowulf dream was pretty stupid (despite also being really awesome).


I refer you to the phenomenon of top 50 album lists containing 48 all-white rock and electronic artists and exactly one Public Enemy and one Miles Davis album.

Thats sort of my point. The Hipster doesn't really seem to think hip-hop is all that cool either (unless I'm misinterpreting your strawman).

Post-modernism is a hard thing to define indeed, but I think I'd probably sum it up as a cultural attitude built on immersion in a fragmented popular culture. Post-modernism is about intertextual reference, appropriation and the idea that it is hard to stratify the worth of cultural artifacts. In practice it expresses itself as an obsession with cultural ephemera. That's not such a good description, but to be fair most people would have trouble with it, it's a nebulous concept. The important thing to note, however, is that it sets up another set of oppositions between the two world-views we're talking about. The modern world is, in fact, really the post-modern world, in the way general culture, art, music etc. operate. Metal, on the other hand, is firmly stuck back in the cultural past, in a romantic tradition that still clings to the mythical archetypes and meta-narratives that post-modernism has dissected. You could also argue that metal derives from folk culture and appropriated high culture, whilst our nebulous definition of indie or whatnot is pop culture.

Right, I mean I'm a likely phil major and was a high school debater-  I just wasn't sure how you were using it. I'm just not convinced this "Hipster" is the personification of post-modernism you make her out to be- but then were come back to the point that this archetype is yours and you can make it mean whatever you want it to. To begin with cultural stobbiness isn't usually associated with an objection to a cultural hierarchy. I'm also not convinced that post-modernism precludes us from taking up a romantic, modernist perspective at least temporarily. Post-modernism constitutes a rejection of the cannon as an idea not neccesarily a rejection of works that are part of the cannon.  Even if we're a little too self-aware I think someone can sincerely enjoy metal and still have a post-modern understand of music.

I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.

"And I mean, you really can't interprate around 'I hate fucking crackers'. I'm not even sure if this is a point I want to make, or where I'm going from it. I'm just sayin'. I know you can tear apart metal as all sorts of prejudiced, but this is pretty blatant.

I'm not so sure. There is a lot of posturing in hip-hop. This strikes me as something said to offend and build the rappers on-mic personality- not a sincere political statement.

That said wasn't Wu Tang all part of some religion that believed ever black person was a demi-god... or something. I'm sure I'm butchering it but I seem to recall something vaguely black-supremicist about that.

I have trouble being all that offended by black-supremicists since they're isn't a systematic oppression of white people. Since I'm not oppressed or particularly threatened by racism its hard to get upset. Plus every historically oppressed people have developed some sort of supremacy belief system (think "Gods chosen people"). Its actually remarkable black supremacy talk isn't more common.

Edit: God there are some smart people on this site.
Logged

NiMRoD420

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #71 on: 31 Dec 2006, 03:51 »

I think it's super intriguing that you think khar's on the losing side...
Logged

Ernest

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,471
  • Buy my book!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #72 on: 31 Dec 2006, 04:25 »

Well, I think he's wrong in assuming that hipsters hate the cultural trappings of metal.  Hipsters pride themselves in liking things others are repulsed by, such as dressing like a cowboy (I hate this, and people who do it) and wearing those stupid ear-stretching earrings.  I don't think that hipsters hate metal by default, I just think that there is a rift on this forum between those who predominately listen to indie and those who predominately listen to metal.  And something you must remember is that, while some hipster styles have creeped into the indie mainstream (man ain't that a heavy word pairing), you're probably not a hipster unless you live in New York.
Logged
Where I come from, we usually just shorten that to "yee-haw!"

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #73 on: 31 Dec 2006, 04:43 »

That said wasn't Wu Tang all part of some religion that believed ever black person was a demi-god...

Well, man, Wu-Tang Gods ain't nothin' to fuck with.

Flaming Ostrich, I found that post kind of disappointing, just because of this line:

Quote
I just think that there is a rift on this forum between those who predominately listen to indie and those who predominately listen to metal.

If you will read this thread again and look through other, similar threads you will discover that folk like Kai, Jeph, and myself are trying to bridge that rift as well as they can. It is when people are closed-minded about either genre that the rift develops. Rest assured though that the effort to reduce any discord between these two is quite sincere.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #74 on: 31 Dec 2006, 04:58 »

Well, I'm overweight.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

NiMRoD420

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #75 on: 31 Dec 2006, 05:17 »

Fatass...
Logged

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #76 on: 31 Dec 2006, 05:35 »

See the idea is that hipsters are normally skinny.

This thread is no longer about my body shape.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #77 on: 31 Dec 2006, 05:44 »

Quote
Thats sort of my point. The Hipster doesn't really seem to think hip-hop is all that cool either (unless I'm misinterpreting your strawman).

The Hipster, who I'm using by the way to define people who listen to indie and are involved in the culture surrounding such music, ie, 80% or so of the people on this site, because I thought it would be less perjorative than 'indie kid' (There goes my attempt to try and not be offensive), isn't the only person adopting our reality centric post-modern worldview: as I said in my first post, this is the aesthetic of the mainstream. Indie is just a more obscure, more refined, more elitist branch of it. It's also the aesthetic embraced by hip-hop, and most mainstream...electronica? Christ on a trike, I don't know the words for these genres. The 'indie person', let us call him, is a definite category of person, linked by their overlapping cultural tastes, attitudes, aesthetics, value judgements etc. People who watch the same films, but music by the same bands from the same record labels, discuss things on the same internet forums, read the sames websites and zines, go to the same shows, and so on and so forth. There is, like it or not, a definite subculture. Obviously, the group could not possibly be defined by one single archetype, my 'straw man' as you term it (I wouldn't consider it a straw man, because up until now I had not been aware that we had a two-sided argument going, nor was I aware that this archetypal figure was central to my arguments, nor was I aware that I was using this archetype to misrepresent the position of my opponents in this argument. I thought this was a discussion. I agree its a nice strong word to throw around to decredit what I'm saying, but please.) However, the archetype, this 'hipster' represents what I, as an external observer, percieve to be perhaps the middle of the road of this group. Maybe it is the lowest common denominator, and if so I apologise. However, at the end of the day, the figure was just an examplar to explain how my main thesis of differing aesthetic world views, which you have said you agree with, or at least respect, applies to the real world, and how it can affect peoples appreciation of things. Please remember that I am writing all this on the fly on an internet forum. I don't have notes.  Still, I believe I am making my best attempt to present my ideas cohesively and discuss them with others who may hold differing opinions.

Quote
The response isn't so much laughter as it is a blush. And I'm not sure this doesn't exist to an extent among metal fans. Do you really not chortle at "to that place where cunning lingers"? Even that Sargon the Terrible guy pointed out that the Beowulf dream was pretty stupid (despite also being really awesome).

Again, I only can go on my observations. My observations are not of blushes, but rather people, who I believe to belong to a grouping associated with indie music, observing that my musical tastes are immature, that the artists I listen to are worthless, that there is no artistry in the metal scene, that it is for white trash/white supremacists, and that 'one day I'll grow up and listen to real music'. I could find some examples just from this forum, but I can't be bothered because I don't want to engage in muck-raking.

Actually, I don't chortle at 'That place where cunning lingers' I woop, if anything. It's a great line that perfectly concludes the song, which is fusing sexual imagery with pagan imagery to represent Martins view of paganism as a liberating force that can easily overcame the staid 'virtues' of christianity, whilst having fun at the same time ('Cunning' (originally from a Middle english word meaning 'to know', 'connen', which is why subs have conning towers) or 'The Craft of the Wise' are euphemisms for pagan lore). It's a fucking good song. As for finding metal silly...I can't say that I really do. Maybe it's a form of doublethink. I suppose on one level I know that, say, 'Supersatan', by Cryptic Wintermoon, is pretty silly, but on a much more conscious level I'm also aware that's it's fucking awesome. To be honest, what we think is 'silly' may define this aesthetic quite well. Sargon thinks his dream is silly, but that's, I suspect, at least partly in his own defence, and he pretty much says that, if that's silly, and geeky, then he wants to be a silly geek. I, on the other hand, consider, for example, The Postal Service to be pretty fucking silly. I mean, come on, that vid, with the kitchen appliances, and eating gop out of jars? That's ridiculous. The Decemberists? The Fiery Furnaces? Deerhoof? To me it all seems very silly, and rather pointless. But then I'll go out and see some insane Coil video which basically just consists of disjointed beats and fragments of Wagner and someone whispering about the death of love and naked men with laurel leave headgear oiling themselves in a thunderstorm or something and think it's the best thing ever. Different aesthetics. Different tastes.

Quote
To begin with cultural stobbiness isn't usually associated with an objection to a cultural hierarchy. I'm also not convinced that post-modernism precludes us from taking up a romantic, modernist perspective at least temporarily. Post-modernism constitutes a rejection of the cannon as an idea not neccesarily a rejection of works that are part of the cannon.

Stobbiness? You mean snobbiness, right?  For the first point, I don't think I ever said that. I was defining post-modernism in an academic sense, meaning to refer to the current ideas in art and music or whatever where people are quite ready to appreciate, and pay lots of money for, art by people like David Shrigley and Tracy Emmin, people who produce works of art that show no greatly developed skill, and do not directly address great questions or issues, and deliberately cast against any standards of finesse or 'high culture', can still be highly valued because they possess some quality of cultural insight, they have the zeitgeist, as it were. However, this doesn't necessary reject an artistic heirarchy, just an established one, and it doesn't even really do that. David Shrigley would be working in an office cubicle if he hadn't gone to Glasgow School of Fine Art.

Quote
Even if we're a little too self-aware I think someone can sincerely enjoy metal and still have a post-modern understand of music.

No doubt. I wouldn't claim to not engage with post-modernist thought. It would be rather hard having been born and educated in the post-modern age.

Quote
I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.

Pardonnez-mois?

Quote
I'm not so sure. There is a lot of posturing in hip-hop. This strikes me as something said to offend and build the rappers on-mic personality- not a sincere political statement.

Oh, what, so, if I were to start a black metal band, it would be totally cool for me to write a song about how much I would have enjoyed stoking the fires at Buchenwald, just to make myself appear more extreme, maybe court the Polish skinhead demographic? It's racism any way you cut it.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

CutMan

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • "Reality is almost always wrong."
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #78 on: 31 Dec 2006, 06:02 »

Well, here's something to think about, maybe.

No musical genre is inheritantly bad. Even if a genre was started by a racist, sexist twit... As it continued, people who weren't would probably get involved and make the same music. And there are so many differrent people making music of all kinds, just because there's hip-hop that promotes racism doesn't mean there isn't hip-hop that promotes peace. Though I wouldn't know if it's in the minority or in the majority, but that still wouldnt prove a genre was bad.

I mean, what if horror movies or comedies were first done by a sexist? Would that mean comedies for all eternities were bad? No, there are comedies with racist and sexist jokes, and there are ones without them. I mean, there are bands of every genre that are racist and sexist, whether prevelent or not, they're there. Because it's music. All sorts of people like it. All sorts of people will make it. Things will shift, sometimes the crap comes out on top. Sometimes the good does. Sometimes it's even. But nothing is inherently bad, so we shouldnt really be trying to discredit a genre, should we?

Oh, and one more thing, I've also encountered a lot of people who claim metal is immature and I should try out real music. Now, I'd normally dismiss this as the usual "other people with differrent tastes that want to change mine" thing, where they argue what I like is crap because of this and this... But it's oddly diferrent. There seems to be some sort of deep prejudice against metal, a need to discredit it because it's "wrong". It's sort of amusing.
« Last Edit: 31 Dec 2006, 06:12 by CutMan »
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #79 on: 31 Dec 2006, 06:09 »

I'm not. I don't relish this argument, it's just Johnny said that the 'Kill Whitey' New Black Panthers attitude wasn't really present in hip-hop, which did not jive with what I knew, so I corrected him, and voi-la. I'm in no way trying to suggest that all of hip-hop is racist, sexist or homophobic, but I am maybe saying that it does manage to evade criticism on its political correctness a lot more than some other music.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

CutMan

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • "Reality is almost always wrong."
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #80 on: 31 Dec 2006, 06:17 »

Yeah, I didn't think you were, really. And I completely agree, it's rather strange. This may sound racist it's self, but I think black people get away with racism a lot more in general. But that's a discussion on how society has shaped it's self and mistakes of the past and how they affect us with guilt and such, not really the point.

And then there's the fact that metal in general seems to be treated as bad, you'd think that attitude would have died out by now.
Logged

NiMRoD420

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #81 on: 31 Dec 2006, 07:01 »

It's dying out, but we still need to plunge the fiery sword of zeus into its heart. The attitude's heart, I mean.
Logged

CutMan

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • "Reality is almost always wrong."
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #82 on: 31 Dec 2006, 07:02 »

It's dying out, but we still need to plunge the fiery sword of zeus into its heart. The attitude's heart, I mean.

I want you to know that that's, like, being saved by me. That's one of the coolest quotes ever.
Logged

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #83 on: 31 Dec 2006, 08:31 »

I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.

It's very interesting that you place it this way. Surely, being able to understand the metaphors associated with today's life in mythology and whatnot shows some degree of intelligence?
Logged

NiMRoD420

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #84 on: 31 Dec 2006, 08:43 »

LOL and I'm willing to sell it to you man. All yours, only 49.95.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,456
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #85 on: 31 Dec 2006, 08:56 »

It's very interesting that you place it this way. Surely, being able to understand the metaphors associated with today's life in mythology and whatnot shows some degree of intelligence?

To be honest I think I naturally show some degree of intelligence but I'm keeping out of this for a bit because I'm DRUNK
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #86 on: 31 Dec 2006, 08:57 »

Onoes, but all of your most witty and incisive commentary comes when you're fucked off your nuts!
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

BrittanyMarie

  • Duck attack survivor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #87 on: 31 Dec 2006, 09:35 »

I assumed Khar's "Hipster" was the same sort of deal as "Jock" or "Goth" or any other completely arbitrary label people put on others. It was just to prove a point, which I think he successfully did.

I guess a lot of people would consider me a hipster, by the music I listen to, the books I read and the movies I watch. I've never seen metal as silly though... mostly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of it is musicianship. Good metal bands (from what I've seen) really can play their instruments well. It's necessary. In indie pop/rock/whatevz it is not always that necessary.

(I think I took down the intellectual quality of this thread four points. Sorry guys!)
Logged
What about orgasmic chemistry.

I can expand the definition of that if anyone wants to roll around to my Fortress of Love.

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #88 on: 31 Dec 2006, 09:53 »

It should be interesting to point out that technically, metal bears a huge resemblence to classical music in composition and skill requirement. This, at least, showcases the mental capabilities of those who play and practise such a style.
Logged

Ernest

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,471
  • Buy my book!
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #89 on: 31 Dec 2006, 09:54 »

you're probably not a hipster unless you live in New York.

@Tommy- That's probably the only important phrase in my post.
Logged
Where I come from, we usually just shorten that to "yee-haw!"

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #90 on: 31 Dec 2006, 10:44 »

I'm not. I don't relish this argument, it's just Johnny said that the 'Kill Whitey' New Black Panthers attitude wasn't really present in hip-hop, which did not jive with what I knew, so I corrected him, and voi-la.

Actually all I said was that the attitude didn't originate with hip-hop. Like any genre of music, hip-hop has its ugly side; however, I hesitate to characterize any genre by what it's like at its worst.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Storm Rider

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,075
  • Twelve stories high, made of radiation
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #91 on: 31 Dec 2006, 11:46 »

I've never seen metal as silly though... mostly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of it is musicianship. Good metal bands (from what I've seen) really can play their instruments well. It's necessary. In indie pop/rock/whatevz it is not always that necessary.

(I think I took down the intellectual quality of this thread four points. Sorry guys!)

On the contrary, I think you've elevated the civility of the discussion very handily.
Logged
Quote
[22:06] Shane: We only had sex once
[22:06] Shane: and she was wicked just...lay there

jcknbl

  • Guest
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #92 on: 31 Dec 2006, 13:34 »

Me:
Quote
I also think its super intriguing that you've positioned yourself on the losing side of an intellectual battle.

Let me just clarify what I meant by this since like 4 people have commented on it. I was really unclear. I don't mean that you specifically are losing any kind of argument. But the way you've framed things metal sort of gets labeled outdated and culturally irrelevant. Its fashionable in a lot of circles to explain how your beliefs are consistent with or adapt to post-modernism. The unabashed placing of metal in modern/romantic tradition is interesting in that post-modernism seems to be winning all the intellectual battles of the past few decades. I'll maybe get to the rest of your response tomorrow Khar. Or not, you all respond way to fast to these things for me to keep up.
Logged

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #93 on: 31 Dec 2006, 14:09 »

That's what I was commenting on - those romantic ideas might be culturally irrelevant without context, but few metalheads and fewer artists will listen to/write a song about slaying dragons for the sake of it. The messages contained within metal are rarely clear, cryptic at best. Within the mind of someone who is prepared to analyse their meaning, however, the romantic content quickly becomes far more relevant as the lister explains and reconciles it with the social elements around them.
Logged

Storm Rider

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,075
  • Twelve stories high, made of radiation
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #94 on: 31 Dec 2006, 14:20 »

And I don't mean to beat a dead horse or anything, but metal is a big genre. As an example, I am going to quote Nevermore's song Godmoney:

Quote from: Warrell Dane
Hey, just what have you become
With a cash vindication
Do you think that buys salvation's end?
Do you see through me?
I'm the plastic face on your screen
Mind control

They say that we're in the final days
Religion is power
Because most of us feel like rats in a maze
Do you worship me?
I'm a bastard saint, I'm a sycophant
A parasite that lives for just one goal
Mind control

Send your money to Jesus Christ
Mail order your eternal life
Bend your mind, make you turn around
Don't believe it when they tell you
That even God needs money
God needs money from you

Shame can't even make them learn
They feed off the weak
And if there's a hell they're gonna burn
On your screen they worship me
I'm a bastard saint, I'm a sycophant
A parasite that lives for just one goal
Mind control

Hey, just what have you become
With a cash vindication
Do you think thy buys salvation's end?
Do you see, worship me
I'm a bastard saint of the color green

Is there anything about slaying dragons in there? Because if so, I don't see any. And the message of this song doesn't seem particularly outdated or culturally irrelevant, either.
Logged
Quote
[22:06] Shane: We only had sex once
[22:06] Shane: and she was wicked just...lay there

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #95 on: 31 Dec 2006, 14:24 »

Well, if you wanted to do the intelligent thing and look at metal as a whole genre, then the discussion is quickly useless and irrelevent. I suppose here we're looking at the more typically stereotyped Power Metal and Black Metal subgenres than metal as a whole.
Logged

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #96 on: 31 Dec 2006, 21:37 »

What was his point then? As far as I can tell the point is "my taste in music is better than everyone else's". Over and over ad nauseam. I guess I'm missing the point. Maybe someone can bullet-point it for me. Can I assume the mantle of a muderous paedophile to "prove a point"? Can I label 80% of this forum as fuckwits to "prove a point"? Would this point be worth hearing? Is this a Fatster conspiracy?!

Give it a break. Khar didn't say that 80% of the forum was lesser or stupid - he said that 80% of the forums had hugely different tastes and a different take on music than he did. That's all.

Now, what you are doing, Tommy, is looking down upon one of the most intelligent posters on the forum and discrediting his opinion off-handedly at once. As someone who shares his opinions I can't help but be taken aback by your abruptness and lack of willingness to look from a different perspective.

To top it off, your labelling of Khar as a "murderous paedophile" does nothing but to tell of your lack of understanding for not only his argument, but generally of the Heavy Metal genre, its fans and practitioners as a whole.

Quite frankly I thought you'd argue a point less based on the debasing of others.

Bryan, those are some shitty lyrics man. I know there are good lyrics out there you could have used but those are not they. If someone brought those lyrics to band practice I would reconsider being in that band. I'm worried that you might post some more and the credibilty of the other, stronger arguments is going to be lost. Just a thought.

Right, two things wrong here.
He brought them up to show that metal lyrics had depth beyond sword-slinging.
Secondly, judging lyrics without a song to place them is exactly what we're trying to avoid in this thread.
Logged

Kai

  • ASDFSFAALYG8A@*& ^$%O
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,847
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #97 on: 31 Dec 2006, 21:39 »

You don't really need music to determine that lyrics are shit. You just kind of read them and think, "these are really cliche/cheesy/fucking godawful."
Logged
but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #98 on: 31 Dec 2006, 22:34 »

To top it off, your labelling of Khar as a "murderous paedophile" does nothing but to tell of your lack of understanding for not only his argument, but generally of the Heavy Metal genre, its fans and practitioners as a whole.

Right, two things wrong here.
He brought them up to show that metal lyrics had depth beyond sword-slinging.
Secondly, judging lyrics without a song to place them is exactly what we're trying to avoid in this thread.

For your first point, he didn't say Khar was one, and when reading that post I didn't think it was implied. To the best of my knowledge neither poster frequents 4chan so it is likely to assume that Tommy is not talking about anyone on this forum but rather a fictional character which he was utilizing to prove a point.

As far as the lyrics go, your first point is correct, but your second point is bogus. There are lyrics I have written which are such shit that I have actually destroyed them without writing music for them or setting them to existing music. Some bands lack my restraint.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

MadassAlex

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,050
  • "Tasteful"?
Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #99 on: 31 Dec 2006, 22:41 »

For your first point, he didn't say Khar was one, and when reading that post I didn't think it was implied. To the best of my knowledge neither poster frequents 4chan so it is likely to assume that Tommy is not talking about anyone on this forum but rather a fictional character which he was utilizing to prove a point.

The principle is the same - Tommy was using a depiction of what presumably he thought of (satricly, but still insultingly) as a metalhead to make a point that added absolutely nothing and could only be seen as flamebaiting.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up