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[calenlass]

Oh man that is such a better song than mine.

[KvP]

I just find veganism to be silly. Vegetarianism, that's fine, since it's grounded in fairly simple utilitarian ethics.

This seems to be the wrong way round to me. I can understand veganism, because it is opposed to all forms of exploitation of animals. Vegetarianism, though, finds it perfectly acceptable to force animals to permanently lactate so we can drink their milk? That's pretty cruel. As for anti-cruelty-to-animals meat-eaters, isn't killing an animal cruelty just as much as hurting it is? Veganism seems like the only internally coherent attitude to me.

I still eat meat.

I never really liked utilitarian ethics, I've always been partial to the social contract, and as such the concept of "exploitation" of things that aren't part of a contract and never will be part of the contract seems ludicrous to me. I can understand the concept of an animal's right not to be unduly harmed, though I don't necessarily agree with it and have major problems with the calculus granting such a right would force us to use, but granting second order rights, like some sort of right to owning their byproducts, is dissonant.

Anyway, don't you worry, in a hundred years, if we're not all dead, we'll be eating steaks grown whole in labs.

[amok]

SO GO EAT MEAT
IT'S A TASTY TREAT
AND ONLY JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE US

RRRAAAAAAGHHGGDSDJADKSGAASAAGFDSGAFD

If those are cookie monster metal lyrics surely "AND ONLY THE GRIM AND INVERTED NORTHERN MOONLORD SATAN CAN SAVE US" would be more appropriate?

[Jackie Blue]

No, because metal lyrics contain depth and irony*!









*_{product may not actually contain depth or irony}

[Scandanavian War Machine]

may contain nuts

[amok]

No, because metal lyrics contain depth and irony*!









*_{product may not actually contain depth or irony}

My sword is all red becaus I have killed you

[bbqrocks]

There are actually some serious metal lyrics. For instance, take this manowar song!

Demon's blood and dragon fire, falling on my wings
Racing to the battle in the sky
Ancient gods are calling me I hear them when they sing
Of all the heores who wait for me to die

Beneath the cloak of magic, I'll meet them in the air
I am invisible, I move without a sound
They look but cannot find me, they think that I'm not there
With a spell I send them crashing to the ground

Wait for me dragon, we'll meet in the sky by fire and magic I am sworn
Hell is calling! We cannot be denied fly to the blackness of the storm
We must die to be reborn

I wear a sacred talisman, I make a secret sign
Now welcome me into this wicked wind
On the journey of a shaman a dragon I must ride
The gates of hell are open! Let me in!

Rule in hell or serve in heaven choose an altar or throne
All Commandments and the laws of man disown
Now eat the fruit of knowledge unto no one ye atone
Into the fire with your soul!

Wait for me dragon, we'll meet in the sky by fire and magic I am sworn
Hell is calling! We cannot be denied fly to the blackness of the storm
We must die to be reborn

Demon's blood and dragon fire, falling on my wings Racing to the battle in the sky
Ancient gods are calling me I hear them when they sing
Of all the heores who wait for me to die

Beneath the cloak of magic, I'll meet them in the air
I am invisible, I move without a sound
They look but cannot find me, they think that I'm not there
With a spell I send them crashing to the ground

Wait for me dragon, we'll meet in the sky by fire and magic I am sworn
Hell is calling! We cannot be denied fly to the blackness of the storm
We must die to be reborn

[Jackie Blue]

I had no idea Manowar were such big Harry Potter fans.

[bbqrocks]

I don't even dare post any rhapsody lyrics...Hehe, dragonophilia. People with this fetish must be rather depressed.

Anyways, there is some serious metal lyrics out there.The metal community has yet to find them, but there must be some.

[Nodaisho]

As for anti-cruelty-to-animals meat-eaters, isn't killing an animal cruelty just as much as hurting it is?

Well, if you are doing it right, the animal feels pain for only a couple seconds. Course, that doesn't work for trophy hunting (A shot to the brain somewhat ruins that buck head that you were going to mount to your wall), and an animal can run quite a ways before it dies if you don't hit the central nervous system. I have noticed that a lot of hunters are very careful about how they hunt, they don't take a shot if they don't think it will kill the animal, they would rather go home without any meat than do that.

[amok]

Anyways, there is some serious metal lyrics out there.The metal community has yet to find them, but there must be some.

NSBM has pretty serious lyrics if you're into that kinda thing

[bbqrocks]

As for anti-cruelty-to-animals meat-eaters, isn't killing an animal cruelty just as much as hurting it is?

Well, if you are doing it right, the animal feels pain for only a couple seconds. Course, that doesn't work for trophy hunting (A shot to the brain somewhat ruins that buck head that you were going to mount to your wall), and an animal can run quite a ways before it dies if you don't hit the central nervous system. I have noticed that a lot of hunters are very careful about how they hunt, they don't take a shot if they don't think it will kill the animal, they would rather go home without any meat than do that.

Straight through the neck works, I think? Anyways, if you hit the chest/back in the right place, won't it shock the animal so that the animals brain basically shuts down? I know it sometimes happens to humans.

Yes, NSBM artists are very serious-the point is, does anyone else take it seriously? 

[sandman263]

I guess this is funny if you ignore the fact that plants can't feel pain and aren't reasonably aware?

Plants can feel pain, apparently. Who would have thunk it?

[Scandanavian War Machine]

correct me if i'm wrong, but plants don't have nerves.

correct me if i'm wrong again, but doesn't not having nerves equal not feeling pain? (or anything else for that matter?)

[KvP]

Having a central nervous system is the minimum criterion, at least according to Peter Singer, who inherited the animal rights tradition from Mill. That pretty much rules out invertebrates and plants.

And yet, people still care about lobster.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

there you have it, you hippies.

[Nodaisho]

Wait... so when the lobsters attack, where am I supposed to aim? Or should I just hook up a fire hose to boiling water?

[Scandanavian War Machine]

aim for the eyes initially, then worry about actually killing the beast.

[a pack of wolves]

This seems to be the wrong way round to me. I can understand veganism, because it is opposed to all forms of exploitation of animals. Vegetarianism, though, finds it perfectly acceptable to force animals to permanently lactate so we can drink their milk? That's pretty cruel. As for anti-cruelty-to-animals meat-eaters, isn't killing an animal cruelty just as much as hurting it is? Veganism seems like the only internally coherent attitude to me.

I still eat meat.

Generally speaking, animals kept for dairy live in more unpleasant conditions than those kept for meat. However, almost nobody in an industrialised society lives a lifestyle where none of their consumption has a relation to some being suffering so vegetarianism isn't necessarily incoherent if done on an animal welfare/rights basis. As for killing being necessarily cruel, I'm not so sure about that. Derrick Jensen, the environmental activist and writer, is not a vegan but is very concerned with animal welfare. His writing is often concerned with relationships between humans and other animals, one of those relationships being killing and consumption. It's a fairly complex thing and one I've never been able to properly navigate myself, I simply don't have the necessary relationship with animals to put myself comfortably in part of a food chain with them.

[Jackie Blue]

I simply don't have the necessary relationship with animals to put myself comfortably in part of a food chain with them.

Is this a polite way of saying you're a furry?

Just playin', dogg.

Hehe.  "Dogg".

This cold medicine is making me loopy.

[a pack of wolves]

You know when they call people tree huggers? Let's just say I took that to a whole other level.

[jimbunny]

dendrophilia for thread win

celebratory Devin Townsend lyrics:

"Earth Day"

Eat your beets, recycle...recycle...
Don't eat your beets, recycle...recycle

The message is; 'THERE IS NO MESSAGE'

Babe, you better not ever think,
Staring into the drink...get out of my mind...
Cause I may not be the one to say,
is there no other way we could do this another day?

I saw God.

She said...'If you don't believe me, guaranteed you'll never leave me'
On your way, and out of my time
But I didn't even know if it was true or just a result of chemicals

Shut up and think of something more important to say...
'Sometimes I think that in every straight there's a gay!' Something or nothing a whole either way it's a way,
it's a way, it's a way, it's a way, it's a way
EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY
it's a way, it's a way, it's a way, it's a way
EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY, EARTH DAY

It's like your birthday, it's on Earth Day,
Like a child you're born again, little child you're bored again...
It's your worst fucking day, it's on Earth Day...
Little lies to cover up...please make your mind up

(Eat your beets, Recycle...recycle...)
(...Don't eat your beets, recycle...recycle)

Man Overboard (I'm so far away)
Man overboard (I'm so far...)
But fuck it! ...I really don't care
Fuck! Listen to me! Just shut the fuck up!

Peace, Love, Joy
Man overboard (I'm so far...)
Hate, hell, war
Hate, love, love, hate, love, hate...destruction!

So just shut your face and take a seat
Because after all, you're just talking meat...and music?
Well, it's just entertainment folks.

Sometimes I think that I really have something moreto say...
'Sometimes I think that in every straight there's a gay!' ...forgive me for saying it blows either way, it's a
way,
it's a way, it's a way, it's a way, it's a way...

It's your birthday, it's on Earth Day,
Like a child you're born again, little child you're cold again...
It's your worst fucking day, it's on Earth Day
Little child your time is up...please turn the heat up

You need your beets, you recycle...
...Don't eat your beets...recycle...

Man overboard...I'm so far away...

[supersheep]

Well, if you are doing it right, the animal feels pain for only a couple seconds.

Well, you are taking away its potential future life experiences, which is arguably cruel. Or causing pain, or something.

I don't really have much of a hold on this subject either - basically my vegan housemate last year brought up the point of killing being cruel and I had no logical answer to it that would allow me to oppose animal cruelty and still continue to eat meat. Generally I just ignore it, or think that cruelty-free animals are better tasting/better for the environment. Mainly, choosing to oppose animal cruelty and still eat meat seems like a way of making myself feel better than anything else. I'm sure there is a far better answer to it than this though.

<jangly guitars, flowing synths, a small kooky singer with a unusual voice>
I like bunnies
I like cows
Cut up in to tiny pieces
And put into my tummy

Meat is tasty
Cruelty is bad
Let's eat nice meat
And not be sad

Lalalalala
Lalalalala
Lalalalala
Lalalalala

[ALoveSupreme]

I feel like we have a similar outlook.

Essentially what I was saying before is that if we are such intelligent creatures, shouldn't we be able to come up with better alternatives than killing?  From most responses, I've gathered a resounding "no," or that most people aren't willing or interested in finding such alternatives. I'm still confident that people will start to figure it out and progress a little, until then I'll do my best to cut such things out of my diet and lifestyle and fully support those who already have.

[Johnny C]

[Jackie Blue]

Essentially what I was saying before is that if we are such intelligent creatures, shouldn't we be able to come up with better alternatives than killing?

Your flaw here is in the assertion that humanity as a whole is all that intelligent.  Have you been to a shopping mall lately?

[KvP]

Well, you are taking away its potential future life experiences, which is arguably cruel.

Hmmm, not sure if you're being serious here, but if you are, you're going to have to twist yourself up something fierce to justify a pro-choice outlook, which I assume you have, because it's the right outlook.

[Johnny C]

Ethics: some tough shit!

[Inlander]

I don't mind people being vegan or vegetarian because, hey, freedom of choice, right? But for me, eating meat is a moral act. I'm absolutely serious. Humanity has managed to fuck up the environment spectacularly, and I genuinely think that a very significant part of the reason for that is because we've managed to divorce ourselves from the natural world. I think people need to embrace the fact that we're just another animal with our place in the ecosystem just like all the others. If we can get into that mindset we might actually start giving a shit about the world again. For me, part of that mindset is the realisation that we're omnivores: we've got teeth for grinding and chewing vegetable matter, and teeth for ripping and tearing meat. To me, saying "Humans shouldn't eat meat" is akin to saying "Dogs shouldn't eat meat" or "Crows shouldn't eat meat". Only the loopiest outer fringe would accuse the dog or the crow of cruelty when it decides to tuck into some meat - so why should the act of humans eating meat be any different? I don't think it should: for me, as soon as you start to differentiate between consumption of meat by humans, and consumption of meat by other animals, you're starting to put humans in a separate box from other animals, and for me that's wrong for the reasons outlined above.

The problem, of course, comes from the conditions the animal was kept in before it was killed. Living in the middle of a large city makes it pretty much impossible for me to kill my own food (something I'd be more than willing to learn how do if I lived in the country - I studied biology, I'm not squeamish). Instead I come at the problem from two directions: 1, I try to get biodynamic or organic or especially free-range meat whenever I can; and 2, I don't eat a lot of meat, especially in summer. Most people who eat meat eat vastly more than they actually need to: a little bit of meat goes a very long way. In winter I eat a relatively large amount because when it's cold you need that much more energy coming into your body to keep yourself warm, but in summer I tend to be mainly vegetarian, not often having meat more than once or twice a week.

edited to get rid of embarassing plural apostrophe

[Jackie Blue]

Plus 10 for Inlander.  Jolly good points.

I actually have known people who have kept "vegetarian dogs".  Now THAT is cruelty to animals.

[sandman263]

correct me if i'm wrong, but plants don't have nerves.

correct me if i'm wrong again, but doesn't not having nerves equal not feeling pain? (or anything else for that matter?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdish_Chandra_Bose

"Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose was a Bengali polymath: a physicist, biologist, botanist, archaeologist, and science fiction writer. He pioneered the investigation of radio and microwave optics, made extremely significant contributions to plant science, and laid the foundations of experimental science in the Indian subcontinent. He is considered the father of radio science, and is also considered the father of Bengali science fiction. He was the first from the Indian subcontinent to get a US patent, in 1904."

"In his research in plant stimuli, he showed with the help of his newly invented crescograph that plants responded to various stimuli as if they had nervous systems like that of animals. He therefore found a parallelism between animal and plant tissues. His experiments showed that plants grow faster in pleasant music and its growth retards in noise or harsh sound. This was experimentally verified later on."

[KvP]

There was a fairly excellent book written on those very points, Inlander, though I'm blanking on the title and author (I'm just a wellspring of knowledge!) Relatively speaking for his era, Mill was on an extreme fringe, but as time went on the rural way of life dissipated, and things like husbandry became the arena of wealthy enthusiasts, and the only connection the vast majority of people had with animals were with their house pets. Given that, it's easy to see how a few generations of young people could not fucking believe that you have to kill things to stay fed and healthy and came around to the idea that it had to be stopped.

[ViolentDove]

Growing meat in vitro is the way of the future!

Well, not really. While it's probably going to be commercially feasible in the next five (!) years or so to grow meat in labs, I reckon it'll run up against the same problems as GM food currently faces with regard to public opinion.

Would you eat a steak that'd been grown in a vat?

Also, Inlander... do you eat any kangaroo? In my opinion, eschewing or limiting cow/sheep consumption is the way to go if you're approaching meat-eating from an ecological perspective in Aus. It's still not very popular here, however.

[Hat]

To be fair, it tastes terrible. Emu isn't too bad though, and I'd like to have a crack at snake or croc meat.

[Inlander]

Are you crazy? Kangaroo meat's great! Sadly you don't see it in shops or butchers very often.

[KvP]

Moose is great. Soft and succulent.

[Hat]

Are you crazy? Kangaroo meat's great! Sadly you don't see it in shops or butchers very often.

I'm sorry that I hate things that are dick nasty

Honestly, I had a kangaroo pie and I couldn't finish it. When something is too gross to be eaten in a pie, you know you're onto something nasty.

[Inlander]

Maybe the pie was made by imbeciles. Get some raw roo meat and cook it yourself.

[Eris]

Are you crazy? Kangaroo meat's great! Sadly you don't see it in shops or butchers very often.

What? They have it at Woolworths here all the time! Sausages, steak, marinated kangaroo roasts, the lot!

[ViolentDove]

But... but how could they go wrong? All they needed to do was float some lumps of gristle in scalding hot plasma!

Mmm. Pies.

Kangaroo does tend to go fuck-off tough when overcooked. Possible the problem with putting it in a pie. If you do it kinda rare/medium-rare like you'd cook a steak, it's very good.

[Inlander]

What? They have it at Woolworths here all the time! Sausages, steak, marinated kangaroo roasts, the lot!

Interesting. My local supermarket's an I.G.A., and I've never noticed much kangaroo meat there.

Anyway, I almost never buy meat from supermarkets. Even if they do have good-quality meat (which more and more do these days), it's always sold in pretty large quantities, certainly way one person, especially someone such as myself who doesn't eat much meat to begin with. Far easier to go to my friendly local butcher and get exactly the amount I want.

[Nodaisho]

Well, if you are doing it right, the animal feels pain for only a couple seconds.

Well, you are taking away its potential future life experiences, which is arguably cruel. Or causing pain, or something.

The animal is dead. Last time I checked, the nervous system shuts down when that happens. Unless time dilates or something, so you live an eternity in an instant, or something. Isn't that what Dio believes? I thought I read that in an interview with him.

I don't really see ending a life as cruel to the thing you kill, but to the things that care about it, the thing you killed is either in a better place or isn't going to be complaining. Yes, there is the issue of whatever animals may have loved it, but I am still working that through, do animals love? Do just the ones that mate for life love? Would they care if one that they hadn't seen for a few months was never seen again? Not knowing how animal's minds work makes it very difficult to define cruelty.

Oh, Johnny? Sigg'd.

[a pack of wolves]

I don't mind people being vegan or vegetarian because, hey, freedom of choice, right? But for me, eating meat is a moral act. I'm absolutely serious. Humanity has managed to fuck up the environment spectacularly, and I genuinely think that a very significant part of the reason for that is because we've managed to divorce ourselves from the natural world. I think people need to embrace the fact that we're just another animal with our place in the ecosystem just like all the others. If we can get into that mindset we might actually start giving a shit about the world again. For me, part of that mindset is the realisation that we're omnivores: we've got teeth for grinding and chewing vegetable matter, and teeth for ripping and tearing meat. To me, saying "Humans shouldn't eat meat" is akin to saying "Dogs shouldn't eat meat" or "Crows shouldn't eat meat". Only the loopiest outer fringe would accuse the dog or the crow of cruelty when it decides to tuck into some meat - so why should the act of humans eating meat be any different? I don't think it should: for me, as soon as you start to differentiate between consumption of meat by humans, and consumption of meat by other animals, you're starting to put humans in a separate box from other animals, and for me that's wrong for the reasons outlined above.

The problem, of course, comes from the conditions the animal was kept in before it was killed. Living in the middle of a large city makes it pretty much impossible for me to kill my own food (something I'd be more than willing to learn how do if I lived in the country - I studied biology, I'm not squeamish). Instead I come at the problem from two directions: 1, I try to get biodynamic or organic or especially free-range meat whenever I can; and 2, I don't eat a lot of meat, especially in summer. Most people who eat meat eat vastly more than they actually need to: a little bit of meat goes a very long way. In winter I eat a relatively large amount because when it's cold you need that much more energy coming into your body to keep yourself warm, but in summer I tend to be mainly vegetarian, not often having meat more than once or twice a week.

edited to get rid of embarassing plural apostrophe

This is some really interesting stuff. It actually does remind me of some of what Derick Jensen talks about in A Language Older Than Words (although obviously without the bits about being able to talk to animals). The disassociation humans have between their actions and how this effects the ecosystem we're all a part of is truly huge and quite terrifying to me, and we really do need to gain a greater understanding of ourselves as simply one facet of a very complex instead of this idea that we're superior and not effected by everything else in it.

Unlike you though, I don't think I'd gain a greater understanding of my position as just another animal just by eating meat. I grew up and have always lived in the city, divorced from where my food comes from. The only food I've ever eaten where I've been able to see and really understand on a personal level its production has been fruit and vegetables grown in allotments and gardens. Given the urban environment I live in I feel I'd have to leave it and live somewhere else in order to become comfortable with consuming meat and dairy, somewhere where not only could I control the ways in which I obtained these things but also that they were more necessary to my survival. A friend of mine basically does this. When he's here he eats a basically vegan diet, but he does a lot of work in rain forests as a researcher. When in places like that he changes to an omnivorous diet since this becomes an appropriate one for his surroundings. I'd do the same thing. Well, maybe. I really don't fancy the bit where your body gets sick from the change in diet, apparently he puked a hell of a lot when he ate meat for the first time in years.

Another thing about the vegan diet is that it doesn't always have anything to do with animal welfare at all. Sometimes it's all about the amount of resources used in something. A diet heavy in meat and dairy uses a massive amount of land compared to one which has little or none of these things, so for me one of the reasons I steer clear is the same as the reason I haven't been on a plane for over ten years and don't own a car. It's not that these are in some way inherently immoral acts but that they're things I don't need to do and can easily work around. Since personally I think we as a species need to be consuming far less resources than we do as a collective now, I'd feel hypocritical if I argued that this was the case but didn't try and limit my own personal consumption habits. That's more about levels of animal product consumption than strictly cutting them out altogether though as my vegan diet does.

[Nodaisho]

Now, this is twice I have seen someone say that they can't control where the meat they eat comes from when they live in the city. Why is that? You can still go hunting, are you just saying that you can't raise an animal for meat in the city?

[a pack of wolves]

Technically I could, but for me this would still be a disassociated relationship with my food. I don't fully understand or have a good enough relationship with that animal and its environment for me to be comfortable killing and eating it. What I'm talking about isn't what's physically possible but what seems to me to be appropriate patterns of consumption to my environment and my personal relationship with food.

[Nodaisho]

Ah, okay. I guess I would have an easier time killing something if I didn't know it, that is what the militaries of the world rely on, after all, but to each their own. As I have said, I doubt I could intentionally kill an animal while hunting anyway, at least not without getting horribly depressed.

[Inlander]

Now, this is twice I have seen someone say that they can't control where the meat they eat comes from when they live in the city. Why is that? You can still go hunting, are you just saying that you can't raise an animal for meat in the city?

I live in the middle of a city with close to four million inhabitants. Australian cities in particular are characterised by a very high urban sprawl: the area of Melbourne is almost 9000 square kilometres. Once you get outside the city, you encounter a large amount of privately-owned land used for farming or just as rural residences. What this means in practical terms is that for someone like myself, who doesn't have a car and relies on public transport to get everywhere not in bicycling distance, is that it would take me a very long time to get out of the city in order to go hunting, and then anything I managed to kill would have to be carried back on the train - and I expect Connex might have something to say about that! So with my current living circumstances, hunting is effectively impossible. As for raising animals at home, I live in a rented single-story semi-detached terrace house with a miniscule backyard which is largely concrete. So that's not really gonna work, either.

Unless I want to eat pigeons and rats all the time, which I don't particularly!

[Inlander]

Unlike you though, I don't think I'd gain a greater understanding of my position as just another animal just by eating meat.

Well, there are a lot of behavioural things besides diet that I draw on to recognise the fact of my own existence as an animal. The more you observe animals, the more you notice parallels of behaviour between "them" and "us", often in ways that you wouldn't expect. Pets are particularly good for this because we're around them so much. For instance, I once observed my cat picking at his scabs. This surprised me as it we're taught to believe that animal behaviour is purely instinctive, and picking at scabs had always seemed to me to be peculiarly human in its counter-productiveness. It's also instructive to compare young non-human animals, and young children: there are so many parallels there it's quite staggering. I could probably come up with a few when it's not one in the morning! Meanwhile, it seems that the more scientists learn about animals, the more our pre-conceptions about human uniqueness fall by the wayside: we used to believe that our ability to make and use tools separated us from all the other creatures on the planet, but now we know that there are masses of animals out there that use tools - and not all of them closely related to us.

Another thing about the vegan diet is that it doesn't always have anything to do with animal welfare at all. Sometimes it's all about the amount of resources used in something. A diet heavy in meat and dairy uses a massive amount of land compared to one which has little or none of these things

Oh I know, and that's another reason why I try to restrict my meat consumption strictly to what's necessary to keep me going. (I'm not keen on taking vitamin supplements and pills and things like that, I'd rather get everything I need through my food.)

[ALoveSupreme]

Essentially what I was saying before is that if we are such intelligent creatures, shouldn't we be able to come up with better alternatives than killing?

Your flaw here is in the assertion that humanity as a whole is all that intelligent.  Have you been to a shopping mall lately?

Unfortunately I guess I may have to agree with you.

I actually have known people who have kept "vegetarian dogs".  Now THAT is cruelty to animals.

I've actually known a few people to do it, and the dogs are fine. Run an google search on "vegetarian dog" and see how many results come up casting it in a negative light.  I even found a small survey that checked into it (though, granted, I think the survey was casted by PETA so I didn't really take it seriously).  Cats cannot be, but from what I've heard and seen, dogs can.

[supersheep]

Hmmm, not sure if you're being serious here, but if you are, you're going to have to twist yourself up something fierce to justify a pro-choice outlook, which I assume you have, because it's the right outlook.

Definitely not being serious - although it'd be easy enough to get around. Animals have been already born, after all.

I am pretty much the exact opposite of Harry's position. I think that there is a significant distinction between us and animals. We are conscious in an entirely different way from other animals - self-reflective consciousness, maybe? I'm not sure of the right word. Basically a consciousness that allows us to deal with complex abstract thoughts. Given this, I think that we are separate from other animals. I don't see eating meat as being a moral choice, therefore. We're smart enough to have transcended the instinctual need to put meat in our bellies if we don't want to. Saying humans shouldn't eat meat is wrong in my book, but not for the same reason saying dogs or lions shouldn't, but because its an infringement on freedom.

I think we have a duty to use the resources of the planet in a way that maximises the good of humankind in its entirety, rather than the good of nature. Of course, this doesn't mean going around and doing what we do now, or accelerating the process. But it also doesn't mean fetishising the environment at the expense of people. We should have game parks to keep all the beautiful animals of the world safe, but that shouldn't be at the expense of a million kids going hungry tonight. Maintaining a personal connection to your food is only possible for everyone if we get rid of loads of people and give up on modern technology and whatnot. Primos can fuck right off.