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Author Topic: Shit, meet fan  (Read 45573 times)

Patrick

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Shit, meet fan
« on: 17 Feb 2008, 14:29 »

The shit? Generations-long ethnic tensions between Kosovar Albanians and Serbs. The fan? Kosovo just declared independence from Serbia. The splatter? Serbia, backed by a few select other countries, refuses to recognize Kosovo's sovereignty.

I'll be taking bets on who fires the first shot. Collections will occur after it happens and I've gotten the FUCK out of Albania.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #1 on: 17 Feb 2008, 14:52 »

Might open the floodgates of ethnic minorities staking out enclaves. Apparently some ethnic Hungarian ministers in Romania have started making noise. Who knows, the Kurds could even get in on the self-determination action. It's a problematic precedent.

But a number of big players (notably Russia) are against the independence. We'll have to see how it plays out. But if there is bloodshed, and there undoubtedly will be in some capacity, it probably won't be official civil war ala Milosevic so much as local score-settling and blood feuding. That shit spreads in refugee situations like an ear infection in a daycare center.
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2008, 14:56 by Kid van Pervert »
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Ozymandias

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #2 on: 17 Feb 2008, 14:55 »

Goddamnit, Balkans.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #3 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:03 »

Because we're human.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #4 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:09 »

Someone tell me why Serbia wants Kosovo so badly. Because, reading the Wikipedia article, I can't fathom why. It'd be like if Texas left the union. Just let them go, man.
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Alex C

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #5 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:10 »

Religion and nationalism.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #6 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:16 »

Those are pretty much the two worst reasons to do anything ever.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #7 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:24 »

No argument there.

But yeah, it really is the same shit as always. Kosovo historically has been one of Serbia's richest cultural centers but is currently filled with ethnic Albanians and Muslims while Belgrade is some ridiculous percentage (90%?) Orthodox Christian. I won't pretend to understand why that's a good enough reason to go to war, but there it is.
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Laterala

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #8 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:25 »

Someone tell me why Serbia wants Kosovo so badly. Because, reading the Wikipedia article, I can't fathom why. It'd be like if Texas left the union. Just let them go, man.

Ok, that's a very hard question, because, you see - I'm from Croatia (ex Yugoslavia...) and even I don't understand why the Serbs didn't want to let us, or Slovenia, or FYRO Macedonia to form our own independent republics '91.
 It's probably because Serbia always wanted to be ''magna serbia'' or The BIG Serbia.

I just hope that everything will go without war, cause the people here are still stressed by the war in Croatia & Bosna and Hercegovina, even though it has been 12 years since the war officially ended.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #9 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:29 »

Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is with the whole nationalism thing, but historically promises of greatness and stability has almost always trumped tolerance and equal representation.
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #10 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:31 »

I just hope that everything will go without war

Considering the history barely 10 years ago, and considering the fact that protesters in Belgrade have grenaded UN and EU buildings (fortunately it's midnight here in the Balkans as I type this, but that won't stop some people tomorrow morning), I am none too optimistic about that.

And a friend of mine and I came to the conclusion that nationalism has never gotten anybody anything but a broken heart.
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bbqrocks

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #11 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:32 »

This is only going to end in tears.

And as to the person who mentioned kurds before, I think they should get their own country, because I met a kurdish guy once and he was the nicest guy ever. He taught me some folk songs, I think they were from iraq...

Where abouts are you now kingjongsick? Still in balkans?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #12 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:47 »

...I am none too optimistic about that.

Well, neither am I... I'm just saying that we really don't need yet another war caused by appetite for territory, and Serbia is well-known for having that tendencies. Kosovo's separation seems to be yet another defeat for Serbia. After the separation of Croatia,Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Montenegro from Yugoslavia in two bloody wars, Serbia has lost its links with yet another Serb-populated area. if you're in the Balkans you've probably heard that famous quote ''Srbija do Tokija'' - translation :''Serbia to Tokyo'' .


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Liz

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #13 on: 17 Feb 2008, 15:56 »

Albania, I believe.

This is indeed correct.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #14 on: 17 Feb 2008, 16:02 »

And we have a burning desire to fuck each other over?

I don't, at least.

Some of us do, yes.  But I'm on your side, to be totally honest.  I wish everyone could get along.  However, I have very little faith in humanity.  We're good at killing one another, and at coming up with new ways to kill one another while inadvertently killing our planet.

Or should that be simultaneously?  I don't know.

We're also very good at killing our planet.
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bbqrocks

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #15 on: 17 Feb 2008, 16:18 »

Albania, I believe.

I misread his first post to say 'I have gotten the FUCK out of albania', seperately. Sorry for that.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #16 on: 17 Feb 2008, 17:48 »

Patrick, Run damnit, RUN!

SOmebody "explained" the whole situation in Serbia to me once, and I still don't truly understand it.  As far as I can tell, the whole area has been somewhat of a mess for the last few centuries.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #17 on: 17 Feb 2008, 17:55 »

I've decided to actually video shit hitting a fan. That should show you what serbia is like, nowadays.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #18 on: 17 Feb 2008, 18:21 »

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Alex C

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #19 on: 17 Feb 2008, 18:28 »

The fulfilling genetic imperatives line has always been one of my faves.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #20 on: 17 Feb 2008, 18:50 »

I'm glad Kosovo is independent.

That said, I'm concerned that Russia is going to follow through on what it's promised to do in retaliation: support the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, which is one of the few (relative) success stories of the former USSR, and could be now torn apart if that Russian support translates to arms shipments and diplomatic recognition of their independence.

Of course, that reeks of a double standard for the Russians: why are the Ossetian and Abhkaz claims for independence from Georgia tenable, but those of Chechnya and Ingushetia--Russia's own separatist enclaves--not?

And as to the person who mentioned kurds before, I think they should get their own country, because I met a kurdish guy once and he was the nicest guy ever. He taught me some folk songs, I think they were from iraq...

...Yeah, because that's a great reason to randomly make another country. They already have a de-facto state in northern Iraq. That's all they need. I'm sympathetic towards the Turks on this issue: Turkey's territorial integrity should not be questioned. They've had 30,000 of their soldiers and civlians killed in the last 30 years by Kurdish Separatist Groups.

We can't just have an independent country for every ethnic group. It's unrealistic. Kosovo deserves independence because Serbia has proven that it cannot be trusted to rule the land after its pogrom and ethnic cleansing in 1999. But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2008, 19:11 by RedLion »
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KvP

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #21 on: 18 Feb 2008, 00:59 »

Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is with the whole nationalism thing, but historically promises of greatness and stability has almost always trumped tolerance and equal representation.
Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.

Not to be too off-topic, but
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then? Or a Kurdish state within Iraq? Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2008, 01:05 by Kid van Pervert »
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KharBevNor

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #22 on: 18 Feb 2008, 02:24 »

Because the Turks have shown the Kurds nothing but sweetness and light, oh the ungrateful swines.

The Balkans is one of those awkward places, like Ireland, Palestine and portions of Africa, where otherwise forgotten wars, and shitty decisions by long-dead cigar smoking assholes have created an almost unsolvable political clusterfuck. There are ethnic groups who really shouldn't be there, and borders where there shouldn't be. Unfortunately by now this post-imperial fallout has been allowed to fester to the point where just re-drawing the borders or re-locating certain groups is both impossible and unethical. Really the best solution would probably be a federal Yugoslavia in which each state had a degree of devolved n regional autonomy, with ethnic power-sharing built  into the constitution. However, by this point, everyone pretty much hates everyone else way too much for that to be feasible, plus those ethnic power-sharing dealies never really work out (it was tried in either yugoslavia or serbia before I think. The Lebanon also has a similiar set-up, and look at the problems they have).  Of course, what would really probably be the best thing for the region is if the EU and Russia could both just leave them the fuck alone, though that's hardly likely to happen.

I think the real clincher here will be what happens to the Serbian minority within Kosovo. The moment tensions flare and they start getting picked on or victimised in any way then bad, bad things will probably happen. Unfortunately, the trigger for this will probably be a minority of Serbian assholes resorting to political violence.

Le sigh.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2008, 04:34 by KharBevNor »
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Alex C

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #23 on: 18 Feb 2008, 09:38 »

Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.

Well, I meant the excesses of nationalism, really; the stuff that is borderline fascist (which is definitely something the Serbs could be accused of, with their expansionist leanings and Radical party). For example, how Napolean managed to convince his military and the French peasantry that making him emperor would be a great idea even if they had ostensibly been fighting for a republic because Napolean promised that he'd take France farther than it'd ever been. That kind of thing. I'm still just not really a big fan of nationalism; it's replaces one restrictive category that excludes people with another, slightly more inclusive category that excludes people. Conflict comes up regardless though, so I suppose all things considered it's been a net benefit, but sometimes it's hard to see that in the midst of some of the silly bullshit people end up killing eachother over.
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2008, 09:40 by Whipstitch »
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #24 on: 18 Feb 2008, 09:48 »

Interesting how every nation with a concern over their own separatist issues does not support an independent Kosovo. China and Russia are both against it. That does not bode well for Kosovo.

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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #25 on: 18 Feb 2008, 09:53 »

Because the Turks have shown the Kurds nothing but sweetness and light, oh the ungrateful swines.

Because we all know Wikipedia is the place to go for unbiased documentation of human-rights abuses.

Not to be too off-topic, but
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then? Or a Kurdish state within Iraq? Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

..wait, what? I'm unsure as to what you're asking.

Anyway, back on topic--what other countries are backing Serbia on this besides China and Russia? And do we really think Russia is doing so out of 'Slavic Unity,' as its foreign minister put it a few months back, or just to spite the West?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #26 on: 18 Feb 2008, 10:01 »

Russia is backing Serbia because they have their own issues with every little cultural subset taking off and becoming their own state Chechnya, anyone?. Spain has concerns over the ETA and Basque lands. Also does not support an independent Kosovo. Taiwan does, China doesn't. See a pattern here?
Quote
The situation in Kosovo is being watched closely by people elsewhere around the world who have been seeking their own states, including the Kurds in northern Iraq and the Basques in Spain. A number of such conflicts directly involve Russia, including in Chechnya, Transdniestr, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10259794
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #27 on: 18 Feb 2008, 12:06 »

Hey Patrick, are you dead yet?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #28 on: 18 Feb 2008, 12:13 »

Boy, won't you feel awful if he actually is dead.

Nodaisho

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #29 on: 18 Feb 2008, 12:52 »

how would we find out?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #30 on: 18 Feb 2008, 12:53 »

Well, he's changed his AIM status since last night, so he was at least alive not long ago.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #31 on: 18 Feb 2008, 13:00 »

Nope, it's currently "Sup."

If he doesn't log in within the next couple days I will get worried.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #32 on: 18 Feb 2008, 13:21 »

KimJongSick has joined

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bbqrocks

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #33 on: 18 Feb 2008, 13:43 »

guiz stop teh ded jokes  :-(

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #34 on: 18 Feb 2008, 15:16 »

Alright, I'll walk through this one.
But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
So you would support an Armenian state, then?
Turkey has slaughtered and repressed the Armenians in the past. You're saying that the reason Kosovo has a right to independence is because they've been oppressed by the Serbians, and the reason the Kurds don't is because they haven't been oppressed by the Turks. Thus, that huge swath of land called "Armenia" must have a legitimate claim to break away from Turkey.

Or a Kurdish state within Iraq?
The Kurds as a minority have been oppressed by Saddam for decades in Iraq. Indeed, the best chance the Kurds have for a state is in the northern regions of Iraq (the tri-partition plan had this in mind) the problem with this is that Turkey will get all up in its shit if it goes forward, because either all their ethnic Kurds will migrate next door, or more than likely, they won't move, but will begin a push to have the Eastern regions of Turkey assimilated into the new Kurdistan.

Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
In your earlier post you stated that Turkey doesn't deserve to be broken apart because they've been beset by separatists. Israel is in the same position.

The point is that if you really believe what you're saying you'll either stay consistent or present clear differences between these examples that allow you to come to different conclusions.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #35 on: 18 Feb 2008, 18:57 »

Armenia can't "break away" from Turkey--Armenia is already an independent nation. It's a moot point.

Israel is in no way comparable to Turkey. It's not like the Turks moved somewhere else for 2,000 years, then came back and told the Kurds "Ok, we're taking all this land back now. You no longer exist as an entity." The Palestinians were on that land for thousands of years, with little to no Jewish presence. The Turks have been living in Anatolia for centuries. They're not "occupying" Kurdish land.

Let's try to get back on topic now, shall we?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #36 on: 18 Feb 2008, 19:22 »

I'm You didn't address the Kurd situation. And like the Kurd situation, that there's an Armenian state doesn't mean that Armenians in Turkey automatically wouldn't have a legitimate claim to the annexation of land.

As for Israel, the point was (besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?) that Israel has been here, it's here now, and it's obviously not going to just up and leave for the Palestinians. If Turkey doesn't deserve to be partitioned because of some nebulous claim to "territorial integrity" despite oppressed minorities, Israel doesn't either.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #37 on: 19 Feb 2008, 02:06 »

(besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #38 on: 19 Feb 2008, 03:08 »

Hey Patrick, are you dead yet?

You know what, Katie? Fuck you. I'm sure this may come as a surprise to you, but red-hot steel slamming into your body faster than the speed of sound is a surprisingly uncomfortable experience. I would know, I'm fucking dead.
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #39 on: 19 Feb 2008, 03:48 »

OH MAN WHERE DID THAT COME FROM
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #40 on: 19 Feb 2008, 04:32 »

Technically if Patrick retained complete self-awareness and rationality in his undead state he would be a revenant, not a zombie.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #41 on: 19 Feb 2008, 04:40 »

You know what Khar fuck you. You are my first victim. *INFECT*
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #42 on: 19 Feb 2008, 04:41 »

FUCK NOW IT'S GOING TO SPREAD TO THE ENTIRE MUSIC FORUM
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KharBevNor

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #43 on: 19 Feb 2008, 04:51 »

I am already one of the undead, fool.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #44 on: 19 Feb 2008, 05:08 »

OH SHI-

Okay zombie Pat, you want the forums, uh... six boards up.

Yeah. I hear they have some absolutely great brains up there.
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Zombie Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #45 on: 19 Feb 2008, 05:46 »

...hm, this is the General Discussion board, are you -quite sure- I'm in the right pla-- HEY FUCK YOU DON'T DRIVE AWAY
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jhocking

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #46 on: 19 Feb 2008, 08:32 »

I hear they have some absolutely great brains up there.
He may be a zombie, but he's not that stupid.

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #47 on: 19 Feb 2008, 12:34 »

(besides the fact that Turkey only existed for, what, half a century prior to the enstatement of Israel?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
Shit, somebody better tell the Balkans that the Ottoman Empire was never dismantled but instead changed their name.
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2008, 13:03 by Kid van Pervert »
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KharBevNor

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #48 on: 19 Feb 2008, 14:26 »

Quote
a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state. The state was known as the Turkish Empire or Turkey by its contemporaries; see the other names of the Ottoman State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Quote
# Medieval Latin: Turcia
# Medieval Latin: Imperium Turcicum
# English: Turkey (derived from Medieval Latin). Current use of Turkey refers to Republic of Turkey which succeeded the Ottoman Empire in 1923.
# English: Turkish Empire

You're argument is equivalent to saying there were no Germans a hundred years ago, or something.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #49 on: 19 Feb 2008, 14:42 »

You're argument



YOUR MOM IS ARGUMENT
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2008, 14:44 by calenlass »
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