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Author Topic: Shit, meet fan  (Read 46176 times)

Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #100 on: 26 Feb 2008, 11:53 »

Oh, lol, at her meeting yesterday, my mum and everybody else at the embassy were told that we should think hard about what we would take if we had to evacuate and could only bring one suitcase.

tl;dr FUCK

EDIT: Bonus points? This comes three days after her telling me "Oh you'll never have to worry about anything, we're not in Kosovo, we're in ALBANIA" and I was like "lol, have fun convincing me of that."
« Last Edit: 26 Feb 2008, 12:17 by KimJongSick »
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jhocking

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #101 on: 26 Feb 2008, 12:12 »

As long as the whole mutually-assured-destruction thing is still around, I won't be too worried.
What a fascinating viewpoint. The possibility of the entire world being destroyed in minutes actually reassures you.

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #102 on: 26 Feb 2008, 12:36 »

uh, May I repeat the fact that most modern politicians while under pressure are dumber than teletubies on a mix of LSD, Extasy, and Goatse?
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #103 on: 26 Feb 2008, 13:12 »

I just had a hideous feeling of deja vu.  It felt for a second like I'd seen the exact post above me, word for word, something like 5 or 6 years ago, somewhere in a deep corner of the internet inhabited by 8th-graders who think they just found the guy who invented the sprite-based webcomic.

It was a weird feeling and it lingered a little bit.  I think it was just the combination of Teletubbies and goatse in the same noun phrase, it touched off bits of my internet memory that haven't been used since 2002.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #104 on: 26 Feb 2008, 20:58 »

As long as the whole mutually-assured-destruction thing is still around, I won't be too worried.
What a fascinating viewpoint. The possibility of the entire world being destroyed in minutes actually reassures you.
I would prefer it if nobody had said power, but if only one nation had it, they would be all-powerful. Think of it like a mexican standoff, either side shoots first, they die too. Politicians may be absolutely fine with sending other people's kids off to die, but they are less likely to go for it when they know that they will die too.

Like I said, it would be better if nobody had nukes, but while I am wishing for that, I wish for nobody to ever try to hurt someone, and for a magical pink pony that farts rainbows.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #105 on: 26 Feb 2008, 21:05 »

When I was in Turkey my sister witnessed the PKK staging a protest in Izmir.  It never made the news when we were there.  Now Kurds are "allowed" to speak their language in Turkey, but it was in the news this morning that Turkish forces are crossing into Iraq and killing off the Kurds there.

an interesting article from January

the npr article

at least some countries are recognizing what they are doing abroad.  We seem to be in denial about our activities.

1. Not what we're talking about

2. Wrong. They're not "killing off the Kurds." The PKK is a Kurdish terrorist group--labelled as terrorists by Turkey, America and the European Union. In the past few decades of attacks on Turkish civilians and military institutions everywhere from Diyarbakir to Ankara to Istanbul, they've killed more than 30,000 Turks. Turkey has launched a limited campaign, of a limited duration with a relatively small number of soldiers, to weaken the PKK, which has its main bases in the rugged mountains of Northern Iraq, or Iraqi Kurdistan, as the Kurds there like to call it.

3. You have no idea what you're talking about on this matter.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #106 on: 26 Feb 2008, 21:42 »

Emm, I don't want to be mean here, but it has been pointed out to you that you might be slightly erroneous on this point already. And just because someone is called a terrorist does not mean they are. See, for example, Republican Sinn Fein, who are a US State Department terrorist organisation despite being a legitimate political party in both Ireland and the UK (countries which have actually been affected by the Continuity IRA.)

Seeing as you seem to be rather passionate about the whole issue of the Turkish being entirely blameless in this matter, I think avoiding the whole issue would be for the best.
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doombilly

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #107 on: 27 Feb 2008, 05:33 »


I would prefer it if nobody had said power, but if only one nation had it, they would be all-powerful. Think of it like a mexican standoff, either side shoots first, they die too. Politicians may be absolutely fine with sending other people's kids off to die, but they are less likely to go for it when they know that they will die too.

Like I said, it would be better if nobody had nukes, but while I am wishing for that, I wish for nobody to ever try to hurt someone, and for a magical pink pony that farts rainbows.
Yeah, sort of détente. But now we live in a world where some of the people with powerful weapons are not really worried about all their chit going ka-bl00ie. Whether they are Xtian evangelicals or islamic fundies, they think it's ok. It will all work out for them in the afterlife. Where's my magic pony?
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #108 on: 27 Feb 2008, 07:36 »

"Whether a long range weapon, or suicide bomb, a wicked mind is a weapon of mass destruction."
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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #109 on: 27 Feb 2008, 09:18 »

Emm, I don't want to be mean here, but it has been pointed out to you that you might be slightly erroneous on this point already. And just because someone is called a terrorist does not mean they are. See, for example, Republican Sinn Fein, who are a US State Department terrorist organisation despite being a legitimate political party in both Ireland and the UK (countries which have actually been affected by the Continuity IRA.)

Seeing as you seem to be rather passionate about the whole issue of the Turkish being entirely blameless in this matter, I think avoiding the whole issue would be for the best.

It's not as if I have some kind of vested interest in the issue--I don't have a drop of Turkish blood in my body.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #110 on: 27 Feb 2008, 09:24 »

This entire thread I assumed you were Turkish.

Instead you're just aggressively arguing something that has no personal value to you on the internet.
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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #111 on: 27 Feb 2008, 09:46 »

God forbid that I should try to correct someone on something that they're factually inaccurate about.

There's not many things that I claim to be an "expert" on. The issue of Turkey's relations to the Kurds, Armenians and Americans is one of those few things that I do make that claim to. I've spent the last two years researching these subjects for an extended course that I'm taking at a nearby college, extensively, almost on a daily basis. Beyond reading through mounds of historical accounts and analyses and books that take all points of view and myriad unbiased sources, I've also been able to get ahold of facsimiles of official documents of the Turkish, Armenian, American and Azeri governments discussing most of the relevent topics, except where such information is top-level security (the specifics of the intel-sharing between the American and Turkish armies, for instance) as well as copies of the PKK's official propoganda, which calls for "...death to any who oppose the glory of the Kurdish people."

Further, I've gone on a class-sponsored trip to Washington D.C. and met personally with numerous officials who have spent their lives dealing with these topics, including top Defense and State officials, and SIGs that represent both the Kurdish and Turkish stances, as well as the Turkish ambassador to America, and the American ambassadors to Turkey and Armenia.

The general consensus is the same: the PKK has slaughtered tens of thousands of Turks throughout the years, and while in the past the Turkish army has heavily supressed the Kurdish people in south-eastern Anatolia, they have never engaged in whole-sale murder or ethnic cleansing, which is what the PKK blatantly advocates and has been carrying out, on a limited basis, for over thirty years.

The point can often be made that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Not in this case. The Peshmerga are 'freedom fighters' that have fought to defend the Kurds for many years--the PKK, on the other hand, murders civilians on a regular basis. Once an organization ceases to launch resistance against military targets and begins massacring innocents, they lose any claim to legitimacy or the right to be called anything other than base defilers of humanity.

If I sound forceful on this issue, it's because I am. It's ridiculously frustrating to have people who have just glanced at a handful of news articles going about blathering like they have any idea of the history of the situation, which is too complex to unless you've devoted a significant amount of time to learning the histories of the Ottoman Empire and Turkish Republic.

On most things, I'm fine with just stepping back and letting most things fall into the realm of opinion, but on this--no. There's not much room for moral wiggling on this--just like there's not much room for moral wiggling on the Ottoman's capaign of ethnic cleansing against the Armenians during the 1st World War.
« Last Edit: 27 Feb 2008, 09:50 by RedLion »
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #112 on: 27 Feb 2008, 13:18 »

tl;dr no u
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #113 on: 27 Feb 2008, 13:33 »

"Whether a long range weapon, or suicide bomb, a wicked mind is a weapon of mass destruction."
Who said that?

And depending where you are, various odd weapons are considered WMDs, due to the language used in laws not being updated when nukes became WMDs.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #114 on: 27 Feb 2008, 13:39 »

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #115 on: 27 Feb 2008, 15:42 »

you're just aggressively arguing something that has no personal value to you on the internet.

What? How is this a bad thing? I don't think he insulted anyone anywhere, at which point I would argue that he left the grounds of civil debate, but shit, I do this all the damn time. I actually invest quite a lot of time and effort into playing devil's advocate in debates. It's why I am so damn good at writing school papers. I utterly fail to see why this could possibly be bad.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #116 on: 27 Feb 2008, 16:24 »

I'm not sure I made a qualifier there as to my actual opinion on him doing as such. I just find passionate arguments stemming from cultural interests more interesting, if generally uninformed, than scholarly ones.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #117 on: 27 Feb 2008, 17:12 »

How abouyt we get back on track before WW3? Why not start a site to bet money on who will shoot first in WW3? 5 C$ on the Serbs! Again!
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Lines

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #118 on: 27 Feb 2008, 18:23 »

Because betting on people killing each other is always fun!
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frullic

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #119 on: 27 Feb 2008, 18:55 »

Exactly! 10 CAD$ on who Dick Cheney will shoot next: He will probably invite Hillary Clinton on a hunting trip...
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bujiatang

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #120 on: 27 Feb 2008, 20:28 »

I didn't bring up Turkey first, I noticed it being mentioned, and added my anecdote and some articles that tied it to some more current events. 

While you may have little opinion of my year in Izmir, my point was that Turkey has been particularly open about what their intentions in Iraq are.

If you cool your jets and re read my post you'll notice I was keeping it brief while weighing in.  The protest (read guns firing) my sister witnessed horrified her, and it was an Orwellian nightmare when it was not mentioned in the news.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #121 on: 27 Feb 2008, 21:35 »

Except, it was in the news. The protest took place in Diyarbakir, in Southeastern Turkey. The protesters threw molotov cocktails at the security and the army--prompting what was extremely harsh and unwarranted measures against the protesters on the part of the latter. Both sides are at fault.

Anyway. This debate has hijacked this topic enough. I'm done.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #122 on: 28 Feb 2008, 06:33 »

Frullic, I think the difference now is that back then, although there were bombings which destroyed cities and, in the case of France, countries and made a whole lot of mess, there was little chance of destroying the entire planet and rendering it inhabitable for the majority of the population for hundreds of years (I'm being sarcastic; there was no chance).

Although I agree that in wars, the people in power can make some bad decisions, I have to say I'm not convinced anyone who is smart enough to put on their own shoes would not realise how stupid it would be to cause a nuclear war.

That said, if you follow that argument through to the logical conclusion the weapons would never have been created in the first place, so what do I know?

My knowledge of history and geography is severly limited to what they deemed suitable to teach me at school (basically: Hitler, the Holocaust, the crop rotation system in Medieval Britain, the capitals of all the major European cities and the fact that earthquakes are comparable to sex [I failed Geography quite spectacularly]) but nevertheless I think I've got my facts fairly straight.
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bujiatang

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #123 on: 28 Feb 2008, 07:17 »

'cept the one I am talking about was in the spring of 1993.  I don't know where you where then.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #124 on: 28 Feb 2008, 07:21 »

I was meaning the second world war, I think I may have skipped a few conversation strands.

Edit for sudden, how-stupid-am-I type realisation: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I realise, were both part of WWII and both clearly disprove my statement that there were no nuclear weapons then, but in fact I think they did help people to realise that nuclear warfare is not, and never will be, the way forwards.

I think I might sound slightly flippant; I'm not. I don't want to get all sentimental but I love this planet, and I can't think of anything worse than being alive when certain members of my species decide to destroy it.
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2008, 07:25 by Barmymoo »
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

doombilly

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #125 on: 28 Feb 2008, 07:30 »

How does this thread not tread on the no-no of discussing religion and/or politics?
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #126 on: 28 Feb 2008, 13:36 »

Don't derail just 'cause you feel like being a whistleblower. It's not like anybody is forcing it on you. A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.

That snarky comment aside, arguing whether bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki was right or wrong is kindof lame. Nothing you can DO about it, but there's a lot to be learned from it.

The reason Russia has the balls to threaten nuclear attack and all-out war (and why I suspect they might actually do it) is that nobody wants an all-out nuclear war. And even if Russia -does- attack anybody with nuclear weapons, who is seriously going to retaliate and cause an epic shitstorm?

The mutually-assured destruction argument may not be entirely relevant anymore, because when you KNOW retaliation makes the complete annihilation of the planet a serious consideration, you're not going to want to do something like that, now are you? It's just a matter of who makes the first and only strike, and President Bush has got enough of a shit reputation as it is. He doesn't need a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia or her allies under his belt.
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jhocking

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #127 on: 28 Feb 2008, 13:45 »

A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.
And this here is a good example of why we have this rule. Patronizing flames are for no.

People who say "if you don't like this thread then go somewhere else" are just not getting it. The problem isn't that some people are too scared for serious political talk, it's that such threads turn into nasty arguments and the participants start acting more angry in general.

Moreover the logic of the suggestion is quite backwards. It's not that people who dislike political debate should leave the thread, it's that people who seek political debate should find a different forum where that isn't against the rules.


EDIT: Is that word a little clearer?
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2008, 14:35 by jhocking »
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #128 on: 28 Feb 2008, 13:51 »

If someone launches a nuclear missile, then you can be damn sure that sometime soon someone will retaliate. And anyways, nuclear war is more of a terrifying proposition to me than to america or russia...You could easily cover britain in bombs.

I just realized I am going on about nothing. Anyways, am I the only person who sees nuclear annihilation as an inevability? As long as they exist, they are eventually going to fall into the wrong hands.
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #129 on: 28 Feb 2008, 14:16 »

The problem isn't that some people are too sensitive for serious political talk, it's that such threads turn into nasty arguments and the participants start acting more angry in general.

S.S. Contradiction, ahoy! It's BECAUSE serious political talk is a sensitive topic that things get nasty easily.

That's beside my point though. My point is that it's not against the rules, it's just said that you should tread upon things REALLY FREAKING LIGHTLY unless you want it to get locked and possibly have a temp-b& or permab& set on you.
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öde

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #130 on: 28 Feb 2008, 14:28 »

Huh, I always thought religious and political discussions were against the rules.
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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #131 on: 28 Feb 2008, 14:59 »

I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but it's too bad, because most of the people here seem to be fairly rational, intelligent and level-headed.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #132 on: 28 Feb 2008, 16:47 »

for once that something intelligent is happening on internet...
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #133 on: 29 Feb 2008, 08:25 »

Don't derail just 'cause you feel like being a whistleblower. It's not like anybody is forcing it on you. A non-political discussion may be found in the hair thread if you feel like this one is too *srs bizniss* for you.
Actually I was just curious being a noob here. I have no interest in deciding what is said or limiting discourse. I am actually very interested in Politics, History etc...
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #134 on: 29 Feb 2008, 16:33 »

Let's get back to it then. Sorry for being out of line.

If someone launches a nuclear missile, then you can be damn sure that sometime soon someone will retaliate. And anyways, nuclear war is more of a terrifying proposition to me than to america or russia...You could easily cover britain in bombs.

While I agree with the fact that bombs could more easily annihilate Britain than the U.S. or Russia, Russia couldn't really give two shits about Britain. The tensions between Russia and the U.S. are exponentially greater than those between Russia and Britain.

With the current administration I wouldn't put retaliation past them, but maybe with the next administration, cooler heads will prevail and it'll be a conventional war instead of a global extinction of everything but the roaches.
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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #135 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:24 »

But what about the whole Litvinenko-Lugovoi-Berezovsky debacle? Russia and Britain have been engaging in petty tit-for-tat since Alexandre Litvinenko was murdered late in 2006, allegedly by Adrei Lugovoi. Britain asked Russia to extradite Lugovoi to Britian, but the Russians were having none of it, as Berezovsky, a former oligarch turned critic of Putin and the Kremlin, has sought asylum in Britain against corruption and embezzlement charges he faces in Russia, and of course the Britons refuse to extradite him to Russia. So they've been expelling the other's diplomatic staff every once in awhile for the last year or so..I actually think things are worse between between Russia and Britain than they are between America and the former.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #136 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:32 »

You could probably kill everyone in the UK with 20 20 megaton bombs, I reckon. Russia has around 6000 strategic nukes.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #137 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:40 »

Thing is, though, in a nuclear war there is basically no-one who wouldn't get hit. For example, Ireland is not a member of NATO, has a military consisting of about seven guys with sticks and a paper aeroplane, and is nominally neutral. Still, we get a couple of nukes where it hurts, because Shannon airport is a convenient location for US flights and also has runways you can fly a B-52 off. Britain has US nukes there (and probably bombers too).
Of course, no-one is going to push the button over something like this. Even if the Cold War had gone hot, it wouldn't have gone nuclear immediately - the Soviets didn't need nukes to roll over Germany, to be honest, and NATO wasn't going to start lobbing them around until it got bad (especially seeing as the first nukes would have been going off on German soil). Nowadays, there's no real ground theatre where the Russian, Chinese, or Americans can end up in combat (at least at the moment), and I don't think anyone is crazy enough to push the button just like that.
The whole Litvinenko thing is just one of those diplomatic spats that happen every so often - America is much more of a geopolitical threat to Russia and vice versa. 20 20-megaton bombs is probably a bit too few, although there wouldn't be much left to be honest.
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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #138 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:50 »

With Russia flat-out saying "We will probably nuke you" to Ukraine (moar liek NUKE RAIN amirite) not even 2 months ago, my spirits have been lowered considerably.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #139 on: 29 Feb 2008, 18:29 »

Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.
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RedLion

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #140 on: 29 Feb 2008, 18:40 »

They didn't really say "we'll nuke Ukraine." Putin was at a public forum and said "Unfortunately, we're may to have to aim missiles at the Ukraine as a precautionary measure. Can you imagine?"
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negative creep

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #141 on: 29 Feb 2008, 19:08 »

« Last Edit: 29 Feb 2008, 19:11 by negative creep »
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Tom

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #142 on: 29 Feb 2008, 19:09 »

Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.
some kinds of bacteria/fungus will survive
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Jimmy the Squid

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #143 on: 29 Feb 2008, 21:18 »

Fun fact: Even roaches won't survive. There are some bugs that will, but roaches die from radiation exposure. Forget what would survive, besides the spider that bit spider-man.

Actually I'm pretty sure the spider that bit Peter Parker died shortly afterwards.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #144 on: 29 Feb 2008, 22:01 »

Of course it did, it was a spider, spiders have a short lifespan. Or did the radiation kill it?
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #145 on: 01 Mar 2008, 01:56 »

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Tom

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #146 on: 01 Mar 2008, 02:16 »

IF YOU'RE A RABBIT!
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #147 on: 01 Mar 2008, 11:47 »

OHHHHHHHH SHIT I TOTALLY DID NOT SEE THAT ONE COMING

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
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Dimmukane

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #148 on: 01 Mar 2008, 12:27 »

HEYO!
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Patrick

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Re: Shit, meet fan
« Reply #149 on: 01 Mar 2008, 12:52 »

In related news, Serbian police have decided, "Okay fuck you Kosovo, we're going home to Serbia."

That seems like a sort of offhand way of saying "Okay we recognize your independence" to me, but who am I to say.
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