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[ThePQ4]

I attended "The Great Porn Debate" last night, featuring Ron Jeremy and Craig Gross. Here's an exert from my Campus Daily Life Newsletter about it:

"The Great Porn Debate" -a moderated debate about pornography and its effects on society such as: is it healthy, addictive, destructive, or a window to fantasy?  Featuring Ron Jeremy, the Guinness Book of World Records holder for "most appearances in Adult Film", starring in over 1,900 films and directing over 250 more, and Craig Gross, pastor from Southern California and founder of XXXChurch.com, the largest anti-porn website on the internet. The XXXChurch.com has been featured on Time, The Today Show, Good Morning America, CBS Evening New, and the New York Times.

It was a very interesting, spirited debate. As far as debates go, Gross obviously had very good points and was a very good speaker. Jeremy tended to go off on tangents, but it was very lively, and I left feeling a little more educated about the porn biz --both the good and the bad.

So, first: has one seen this debate? It was done at Yale and featured on an episode of Nightline on ABC, but they are also doing a tour (I think they are at Minnesota State tonight, for any forumites there). If you have, what were your thoughts.

For those who haven't, what are your thoughts on the "The Porn Debate", pros and cons.

[muteKi]

There was actually something similar going on here at W&M last night primarily related to the Sex Workers' Art Show, but I had a couple important assignments and so it slipped my mind.

The debate you're talking about I certainly have not seen and I don't know that it would even go this south.

In terms of having such a debate I'm glad to have it though I would wonder about how well Ron Jeremy could represent the industry. Certainly he's not notable for his charming and bubbly personality from things I've read in this subforum about him.

[ThePQ4]

Well, my roommate and I were first in line to meet him. He seemed rather bored, and not over-all pleased. The line to meet him was HUGE (we happened to have seats near his table, so it wasn't hard to get to the front). I got a couple of pics, and he was cordial, but it wasn't like he overly chatty.

Craig Gross on the other hand, had a much shorter line to meet him of course, but he was very nice, very chatty. He obviously likes what he does, and is proud of the work he's done. XXXChurch.com is actually very interesting and has a very interesting layout/format, I guess is how to say it.

My overall opinion of porn is that: if you want to watch it, watch it. If you don't, then that's fine too. I personally feed into more gay porn (my friend Lauryn and I had some VERY impure thoughts about how well the good Pastor would be in a gay film...) and the like, but I don't like anything overly hardcore, but I'm also not obsessive about it either. I don't need to watch it, I find it more amusing then erotic most of the time. So, while I think Pastor Gross had good ideas, I'm not going to stop watching porn.

I'll see if I can find a youtube link or something to a peice from the Nightline Debate... I'm sure it exists. It just aired as recently as last week, I think.

Edit:
Nightline Part 1
Nightline Part 2

[SeanBateman]

Yo this is totally an interesting thing deserving of its own thread.

[jhocking]

I'm not sure this event really merits the descriptor "great." I mean, a longtime porn star and an evangelical preacher disagree with each other's morals, STOP THE PRESSES

[karl gambolputty...]

Well, it's pretty great that they seem to have stayed civil through-out the whole thing.

[tania]

so are we supposed to debate porn, or talk about people who have debated porn?

[jhocking]

I'm not sure actually debating porn around here would be particularly effective. Unless you meant debating which porn sites are the best ones.

[tommydski]

I'm going to film some Debate Porn. The dialogue writes itself.

[jhocking]

Without googling it first or anything, I'd be willing to put money down that such porn already exists.

[tania]

i mean, i had some pretty cool stuff to say about porn but if the debate already happened i guess i'm... i guess that's cool.

[0bsessions]

I could link to a bevy of top notch free porn sites, myself. You see, I watch a lot of porn.

Also of note, I feel now would be a good time to cover a related debate:

Streaming versus downloads? Which do you prefer?

Me, I prefer streaming. If I want some porn, I want it right now. I don't want to wait half an hour to download a good porn torrent. Given, once in a great while, I'll download one that sounds good while I stream something else for the time being.

Given, the downside is that it's often difficult to find quality streams that are anything more than two or three minutes long, but a determined individual can find some excellent streams.

[jhocking]

i mean, i had some pretty cool stuff to say about porn but if the debate already happened i guess i'm... i guess that's cool.

I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the contrary position.

[pilsner]

I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the missionary position.

[Skibas_clavicle]

Man, Craig Gross is so dreamy. I wish he wasn't so into Jesus. Although I'm probably 60-40 on his side of the debate.

[tommydski]

[muteKi]

I will debate you. I wish to hear your opinions on porn. Don't worry, no matter what you say I am prepared to take the missionary position.

Well played.

[RobbieOC]

This thread has gone this long without a "master debater" joke? Seriously?

[blanktom]

Without googling it first or anything, I'd be willing to put money down that such porn already exists.

Rule 34 states that if it didnt, it does now.

[Luke C]

I watch porn, but wouldnt watch it so much if I was getting laid taking a sabbatical from women.

[tania]

oh come on, everyone knows missionary is the most boring sex position.

i'll probably write a longer post later if people actually care enough to debate about porn (i won't be offended if no one does), but a very short summary would be that i don't watch porn because i find about 90% of it really terrifyingly degrading to women. when it comes to porn in general, it's a huge turn on to see people in pornographic film who are really comfortable with their sexuality and with what they're doing. i don't think there's even a point in anybody denying that sex exists, ever, so the whole "it's just perverse!" argument is one i'm not even going to bother with. sex happens, some people like to be watched and some people like to watch other people. that's cool with me.

[RobbieOC]

My biggest problem with porn is that I feel like 99% of it is just some girl who needed to make some quick cash, and then ends up deeper in than she expected. I don't know how often that happens, but I saw some TV special about one girl that that happened to, and it kind of ruined things for me (which I am okay with). Basically, it's so surface and shallow, that it really isn't a turn on to me anymore like it was when I was 15.

[ruyi]

I agree with what Tania says about porn that's mass-produced and the easiest to access. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with its existence if it weren't for the fact that for a lot of younger people, their first formative encounter with sex is through this shit, and then they have to go through the trouble of unlearning a lot of things.

[Dimmukane]

My biggest problem with porn is that I feel like 99% of it is just some girl who needed to make some quick cash, and then ends up deeper in than she expected. I don't know how often that happens, but I saw some TV special about one girl that that happened to, and it kind of ruined things for me (which I am okay with). Basically, it's so surface and shallow, that it really isn't a turn on to me anymore like it was when I was 15.

Yeah, there are quite a few sad stories out there about this.  Quite a few suicides and overdoses, plenty of addicts, etc., there's not a whole lot of positive stories out there.  Asia Carrera is in MENSA.  That's about it.  Everything else is pretty much an 'I needed money/am a nympho/fetishist'.  One of the more popular stars is leaving the business to work in real estate (Eve Lawrence).  I imagine most of them don't stick around for very long due to lack of any kind of pension.

[RedLion]

I don't have a problem with the idea of porn. It's natural. Erotic art and presentation has been around since art itself was first created (though modern porn certainly isn't an art form). The way it's carried out nowadays really bugs me though. It's almost sickeningly exploitative, and violent, extreme porn has been gaining traction, particularly on the internet. I suppose it's better for people who have a rape fetish to get their fill of it by staged porn rather than indulging in their desires, but at the same time, it degrades sex, which should be the most wonderful thing in life.

The notion that sex should wait until you've found your "soul-mate" and gotten married is both unrealistic, unhealthy, and against out biological and mental instincts and basic drives. Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.

[tania]

the reason i can't stand the whole "porn is gross because sex is gross, etc" argument is because in my experience (and i realize anecdotal evidence isn't the best evidence but it's all i have unfortunately), i know far more people who have been damaged by the fact that their parents excessively sheltered them and tried to bring them up in a world where sex didn't exist than from being exposed to sex. it just isn't a healthy attitude! i don't understand how parents can think this is a good idea.

i like to think i'm a pretty stable, grounded person. i also love talking about sex. i get really weirded out when people shun me or make me feel like a pervert when i discuss my sex life. while i can agree that there's a time and a place for everything, i've never understood how often people can take the attitude where they just absolutely never think sex is an appropriate topic for discussion at any time. sex is the most natural thing in the world! people shouldn't be ashamed by it, they should be as comfortable with their sexuality as possible. people should be able to explore what feels good for them without feeling judged or embarassed. again, some people really enjoy being filmed and other people really enjoy watching pornography to learn more about themselves sexually. i completely approve of this.

however, like mentioned previously, i don't watch porn and my main reason for not watching porn is that it seems 90% of it is kind of terrifyingly degrading to women. also, i'm not arguing that porn is degrading to women simply for the sake of arguing that it's degrading to women - there's a lot of evidence that suggests that a lot of guys are really influenced by what they watch and this is what bothers me more. while correlation does not imply causation, there is still a very strong correlation in males between being sexually violent towards women and watching pornography. this doesn't mean that if you're a rapist you watch porn or vice versa. it could also be the case that maybe if there is a causal relationship it goes the other way, and people who are already kind of degrading and violent and stuff are drawn to porn because they can relate to it. these are just trends, not solid cause-and-effect relationships. obviously millions of people watch porn and are not criminals so i'm not going to tell anyone what to do, but i'm also not going to watch porn because i don't like it.

[RobbieOC]

The notion that sex should wait until you've found your "soul-mate" and gotten married is both unrealistic, unhealthy, and against out biological and mental instincts and basic drives. Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.

Actually, this is what I'm doing, for a variety of reasons. A lot of it, probably, is because I've been taught growing up that it's the "right" thing to do. I don't blame my parents or anyone else for this view because I don't feel like I've really missed out on anything. I have nothing against sex at all, and I find it to be an extremely interesting topic when discussed with the right person, but it's not something I'm all that interested in until I've found someone I trust. I tend to get really attached to people really quick, so most of the reason I've held off has been for my own mental health. I don't want to have sex with someone, get attached to them, then get left behind. The easiest way to solve this is to wait until I'm married. I just genuinely feel it's in my best interest to wait.

Though there are a lot of people out there who do have an unhealthy idea that sex is bad, especially before they're married. A lot of it is because of religion, I guess, but a lot of it is also fear of what their parents might think if they found out or the consequences for unsafe sex, etc. Sex is a really important part of life, and there are a lot of people (kids especially) that are uneducated about it, so they have irrational fears/unrealistic expectations.

[a pack of wolves]

Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.

I don't really understand this, I can't see what sleeping with a number of different people has to do with violence against women.

I agree with what people have said about the depressingly degrading nature of the majority of the porn out there. There's nothing wrong with fetishising domination and submission or just having a little fun with power relations. After all, Foucault loved a bit of BDSM and nobody knew more about the dangers of certain kinds of power relations in a society. But so much of the material out there just leaves a bad taste in the mouth, you can tell there's an unpleasant level of misogyny present and it really can't foster good attitudes towards sex and sexuality.

The other thing I find really depressing though is a lot of the comments you see on anti-porn websites like that xxxchurch place. So many of the men on there seem to be watching porn that allows them to experience aspects of the sexuality they otherwise wouldn't be able to since they've been conditioned to think of them as perverse, sinful and wrong. What they're battling against isn't porn addiction, it's the fact that they'd really like to sleep with men, or transvestites, or somebody who's into bondage, all of which is perfectly normal and fine. Sadly, instead of someone telling them to get off the porn sites and onto a gay dating website, or ebay to buy a dress and some handcuffs they get told they're sinful and they need to become clean.

[est]

I haven't heard anything about the specific debate in question and I'm at work at the moment so I can't check into it more.  My take on the general porn debate though is that if I am of a legal age to physically engage in sexual acts then what is wrong with me being able to looking at pictures of said acts?

That said, I also agree with Tania somewhat.  A lot of porn on the intertubes seems horrible.  I think I go on about this every time we start talking about porn.  Sites like Bangbus, Chicktrainer et al are pretty awful and make me wonder what kind of effect they are having on young teenage dudes circumventing age restriction checks by getting passes from someplace.  The fact that Girls Gone Wild is pretty much a household name makes me shake my head and kind of maybe want to burn things to the ground a little.

I am not even sure if what makes me so outraged about these sites is the same as what Tania's talking about, or if it's something entirely different.  I'll try to explain my viewpoint and just kind of assume that you guys know enough about the sites in question that this'll make sense, because I've started typing up descriptions a couple of times now & can't really get them out without sounding like some overzealous twat.  One of the main objections is that they generally treat the girls like shit.  The girls are never an equal partner in the sexual process.  They are simply pretty things that the male actor puts his cock into and which are then discarded wholesale in some derogatory fashion at the end of the act.  On occasion I have tried to watch one of the movies when there's a particularly attractive girl involved or whatever, but the way they are treated always turns me off.

Another major problem I have with these sites is that they are patently misleading.  I know that any moron should be able to realise that the girls are actresses and being paid for the scenes, etc.  But then again I have known people to send me obvious celebrity fakes and argue with me until they are blue in the face that they person in question was "definitely a slut" and that the fake in question was in keeping with their image.  (The celebrity was Gillian Anderson, by the way.  It was an obvious fake, pixels and everything, and the guy was definitely too stupid to be trolling me).  Parts of voyeur and party sites Girls Gone Wild offer up an entirely different yet completely awful scenario.  They pay porn actresses to go to parties and pretend to be normal girls who get naked and such.  This further blurs the lines for the viewer, and in some cases you'll get other girls going along with the actresses either too stupid or too drunk to know what's up.

So yes, when quizzed on this kind of thing most people would say "oh yeah, I know it's totally fake" but that probably doesn't stop Bob Q. Shitpants from silently inferring that all girls are sluts waiting for the right amount of money to be dangled in front of their noses and that dirtytalk consists entirely of calling the girl a whore and asking her if she wants your come on her face.

[jhocking]

kind of terrifyingly degrading to women

As a counterpoint, I present this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6tAQUuhloM&feature=related


(don't worry, it's sfw, just amusing)

[20 jazz funk greats]

The girls are never an equal partner in the sexual process. 

not all girls want to be "equal" in the sexual process.
some want to be in control, others actually enjoy getting smacked around and having their hair pulled and whatnot.

gosh.

[ruyi]

I feel weird, because you seem like you're being sarcastic, except what you're saying is partially true, and it still isn't a valid rebuttal of what he was saying, and hlugfhkjgh ambiguity on the internet

I am going to bring up a point your post brought up. On the topic of girls who like being dominated sexually - when they're being submissive, aren't they still in control?

[20 jazz funk greats]

i am not being sarcastic for once, just trying to bring up a point that is often forgotten in these kinds of debates, but too tired to write a proper rebuttal.
no interweb ambiguity here.

don't get me started on submission.

[BrittanyMarie]

I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control. I mean, it'd be pretty ridiculous to assume that there are no ladies who are into S/D, S/M, whatever, right?

[RobbieOC]

Yeah, most porn isn't a submissive thing. It's a "I'm being paid to let a guy dick me so thousands of other guys can watch" thing. There's a considerable difference.

[20 jazz funk greats]

I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.

well, in a sense they ARE, seeing as how they made the choice to star in porn (yes, it's a choice, there are always other career options available), and i don't think they're too sheltered and clueless to know what they're getting into.

[Fenriswolf]

Sexual promiscuity has gotten a bit out of hand in some ways, though, and it's been reflected in the degree to which porn has become outright violent towards women.

How do you link sexual promiscuity and violence towards women?

Genuinely intrigued.

Obviously I can't answer for them but it's a connection lots of people make. Personally, I think it's the other way around - the more taboo sex is in general, the more the lines between acceptable and not are blurred. I think the "sex is dirty" idea is closely linked to stereotypical gender roles which tend to reinforce the idea that women don't like sex except as a way to express love, so men are always wanting more, and hence to the idea that men have to "trick" sex out of women which in turn blurs the whole concept of consent.

I find the idea that women-like-x and men-like-x totally laughable. I think mainstream ideas about sex are so penile-centric that sex becomes something entirely defined by penetration (obviously in the biological sense this follows) and hence really not that great for a lot of women. But I've met men and women of hugely varying libidos and sexual tastes, and frankly my partner and I are polar opposites to the gender stereotypes - he's naturally very monogamous, primarily enjoys sex as a loving act, I pretty much cannot have sex as an act of love and while I don't think that's healthy I don't think my difficulty with monogamy is unusual. I just can't see that monogamy is natural for either sex.

As to porn, I like the idea, but frankly I just can't watch it any more. I can't watch it without seeing how bored both people are, how rote their actions are, how completely the women is an object in a product aimed at men. Even worse, you can't look for straight porn without being barraged with descriptions of "bitches" being "tricked into sex" (sorry sweatheart but if that's true it's called rape; hate to burst your bubble). I like hardcore, and I like S&M. I do not like sexual passiveness in women and borderline abusiveness being sold as the norm to people learning about their sexuality.

[öde]

Good post!

I only look at indie porn.

[Fenriswolf]

I just can't see that monogamy is natural for either sex.

I would put forward that this is because you are a sensible, thoughtful human being.

That's just me though.

Or perhaps a cynical, overly analytical person? Yours sounds better

[blanktom]

man it is finally good to see a newbie with decent shit to say.

as for the porn debate, i haven't really been reading so this is just me batting my thoughts out, but it seems there is a slowly growing number of female directors who are managing to make tasteful pornography where the woman isn't some slut from the street and the whole thing isnt just 'I'M GOING TO BANG THIS HOT CHICK NAO HAGAHAGH'

and i have to say, its a lot closer to realism. i know i prefer that over most of the other crap this short-sighted industry pumps out nowadays.

[Fenriswolf]

Thank you? Fortunately, sex is something I can pretty much argue about all day.

I can't exactly say I have extensive experience with modern, er I dunno, classy porn? But anyway I was getting some iPod update thingies that was meant to be more realistic sex but they kept cutting back and forth between talking and feeling each other and f*ing and looking all orgasmic and it just wasn't doing it for me. Too touchy-feely, too... something.

I guess it's personal taste too. I like me some good bondage, some realistic lesbian softcore (maybe that's because I've never seen realistic hardcore... can you even have hardcore lesbian porn? I suppose so), but more often I like stories. They can take you so many places and so much more completely than a couple of people who look nothing like you or your personal taste and with no time to build up sexual tension.

[Hat]

Fenriswolf, you made a really good post but i am going to have to be totally anal here (HURRRRRRR) and point out that something can be penis-centric or penile but it doesn't really any sense for it to be penile-centric.

I'm sorry! I just dig on morphology so bad that was jamming into my skull like a fork.

[Fenriswolf]

Fenriswolf, you made a really good post but i am going to have to be totally anal here (HURRRRRRR) and point out that something can be penis-centric or penile but it doesn't really any sense for it to be penile-centric.

I'm sorry! I just dig on morphology so bad that was jamming into my skull like a fork.

lol It's truuuue! I'm finding that my sentence structure has been really f*ed up recently so you'll have to forgive me. It drives me nuts, because usually what I love about the internet is the ability to say exactly what I think. When I'm garbling my thoughts the way I did above it kind of ruins my joy in posting. Hmph

[Tom]

Hat forgot a word in that first sentence, try and find it.

[Fenriswolf]

Haha! See what a wonderful person I am, I have attuned myself to block out other people's inconsistancies! OK, that is a lie. The missing word is make

[Tom]

Points to you.

Why Fenriswolf, Fenris was a wolf or have you just translated the latter half of Fenrisulfr. It all seems rather tautological.

[Fenriswolf]

Well well, I just can't think of a clever reply to that. My how I wish I were clever with words - but rather I get on extremely well with people who are and they make the mistake of thinking I am. The horror

My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróðvitnir

[jhocking]

I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.

hm, but what of all the porn companies run by women? Do you think those are okay then?

[tania]

the unfortunate thing about pornography is that it's also an area where it's really hard to draw the line between what's degrading and what isn't. an amateur video featuring a girl being gang banged and clearly not enjoying it isn't hard to identify, but what about girls who really legitimately enjoy being in videos and being submissive and make a very decent living off of it? mostly i am trying to play the devil's advocate  here but really what a lot of people seem to miss is that telling a women she can't be in pornography because it's degrading is really just as sexist as telling her she's nothing but an object for guys to put their dicks in, because both scenarios still ignore the fact that women are actually smart enough to make their own decisions. kind of like what brittany said i guess, is something really degrading if you understand what's going on and are comfortable and in control of the situation? probably not.

[RedLion]

I wasn't arguing that sexual promiscuity in itself breeds violence towards women. In fact, I'm all in favor of being open, realistic and not uptight about sexuality. Oftentimes, it's the people who are raised in households and go to schools that refuse to tell kids the truth who grow up to be the most "deviant" in terms of sexual habits. I firmly believe that to stifle the sexual desires of a person and label them as bad, wrong or evil is one of the most mentally damaging things that a parent can do. It often wounds the very core of a person for the entirety of their life, unless they get therapy for it.

It's more the idea that "anything goes" in terms of sexual practices. I mean, if a person has a kink or a fetish, they should indulge it in, safely and with people who share it or at least are willing to tolerate it in their parter. But to a significant number of younger people, "normal" sex in porn isn't enough anymore, they view it as bordering on boring. There's this constant push towards the outer fringes of sexual habits, towards the ever-more-extreme, and I think that's why we're seeing such a massive growth in gagging/choking/torture/rape porn.

So, generally speaking, there needs to be some kind of moderation. To try to shun or condemn sexuality isn't just futile, it's not ethical. But to go on the completely opposite end and say that, sexually, anyone can do anything they want without consequence--and that a significant number of women would enjoy being forced to gag until they puke--isn't, either.