Topic: World of Warcraft (Read 694283 times)

Leinad · « **on:** 03 Aug 2008, 19:54 »

<moderator comment>The original of this post was deleted by the author on 21 Dec 2010, which was the last day he accessed the forum. This is all that survives of that post, taken from a quote in the thread:</moderator comment>

... when I was leveling my first toon to 70 my friends and I would ALWAYS without fail gank any horde we came across as often as we could, and camp their corpse til they rezzed at the graveyard and hearthed. We were vicious. ...

<moderator comment>The original post was replaced by the following, at the time that it was decided that the QC discussion forum, in particular, needed more moderation:</moderator comment>

The mods here are really stupid and pretentiously arrogant. Confirm/deny?

Alex C · « **Reply #1 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 20:47 »

I did the WoW thing pretty heavily pre-bc, and my behavior was pretty schizophrenic-- most days I would mind my own business and even save the odd lowbie who looked like they were in over their heads, while other days I'd be sneaking on board zeppelins murdering people (I played a rogue and a priest). For the most part though, I think world pvp is one of the weakest aspects of the game and the only fond memory I really have of it was the friendly rivalry I ended up in with a pair of Horde rogues. See, their raiding guild happened to have the roughly same MC schedule as my raiding guild, so we had plenty of opportunity to gank eachother. The progression was kind of funny-- it went from mildly amusing, then to kind of annoying and disruptiv, but then just became outright hilarious after they took to sneaking into the middle of the AH and ganking me. Nobody else, mind you-- they'd just waltz in, drop a cheapshot and an ambush then run around in circles jumping around like idiots as everyone killed them with the occaional KEK thrown in for good measure.

Leinad · « **Reply #2 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 20:57 »

Haha, that is ridiculous. I got like that with another warrior on the warrior side. While lvling through STV we pretty regularly ganked each other around lunch time and then again at dinner time. When we met up again in the OL I was a tank and he was a dps warrior, so I just bounced him around while mage frends ate him alive.

clockworkjames · « **Reply #3 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 22:56 »

This is why I like Age of Conan, you can PK ANYONE and so I do! As for WoW never really got past lv 33 in a pvp server but I was horde and flagged all the way, before that I got to 62 on a carebear server with some people I knew.

pvp EU server Battlescar for AoC

Leinad · « **Reply #4 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 23:09 »

PK... hmmm, play alot of runescape?

Also, from my second post in this thread... another warrior on the HORDE side it should have read.

est · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 23:54 »

Quote from: Leinad on 03 Aug 2008, 19:54

... when I was leveling my first toon to 70 my friends and I would ALWAYS without fail gank any horde we came across as often as we could, and camp their corpse til they rezzed at the graveyard and hearthed. We were vicious. ...

You weren't "vicious", you were assholes.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #6 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 00:01 »

Man. Ruining other people's game is pretty awesome. Fuck those dudes for trying to have fun.

Covetous · « **Reply #7 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 05:08 »

Ganking and corps camping are just being a bully. The chicken system is what makes Warhammer onlien really interesting. That and that I finnally can be that cool tzeentch mage!

(ganking = killing people a lot lower then you).

est · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 06:21 »

I have played on a PvP server before. Corpse-camping is fucking lame.

Yakob · « **Reply #9 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 06:29 »

Yeah, camping is as low as you can get. Alright, you proved a point that you can kill me, now move along. It makes it significantly worse if the target is way lower than you. I'm all for a one-time friendly competiton, but don't be an asshole and camp.

Nótt on Warsong(US)

imagist42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 09:10 »

Yeah, I used to play on a PvP server (pre-BC). Ganking is pretty retarded, and this is coming from someone who would wander around with friends at 60 that were interested in very little else. Don't kid yourself saying you're "vicious," or that you have to "understand the culture," you're an asshole through and through if that's the way you spend your time.

Pick on someone your own level.

Lines · « **Reply #11 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 09:46 »

This is why I don't play on a PvP server and am never flagged unless I am helping capture a zone or whatever. Trying to turn in quests and have someone come up behind you and kill you before you realize what's happened isn't funny, it's annoying as hell. That's also why I stopped doing battlegrounds, because the group of people waiting around in the graveyard to kill you when you rezzed was also annoying as hell.

In short, don't be a dick.

Boro_Bandito · « **Reply #12 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 10:52 »

Gah, I don't know why, but I'm playing this game again. Why am I playing this game again?

Harifel on Twisting Nether

Ozymandias · « **Reply #13 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 11:05 »

Quote from: Anyways on 04 Aug 2008, 03:32

est/Ozy, have you actually played on a PvP realm in an MMORPG before? I don't think understanding the ganking culture is even possible if you haven't experienced both ends of it first hand.

Yeah, it's mind-numbingly stupid. I avoid PvP realms just so I don't have to deal with both playing a game and avoiding people who I guess don't want me to play a game because they're level 70 and I'm 33, so clearly I am doing something wrong.

Leinad · « **Reply #14 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 11:41 »

No no no, guys, i believe you misunderstand me. I wouldn't go around ganking people lower than me, I would just hunt those people who were leveling in the same area as me, meaning they were obviously in my level range. And once you get to outland everyone is in a guild with at least a few 70's online at a time anyways, so PvPing in outland is no holds barred cause it will end up being fair one way or another. What is even more fun is ganking people higher level than you, cause you got more honor for it. I don't understand anyone who would corpse camp someone lower level than them, but corpse camping someone HIGHER lvl? That shows skill, buddy. I think the most fun I ever had was randomly organizing a raid to take halaa, and it ending up with 40 people in our raid group, and I don't know how many horde. It was pretty awesome.

Don't all spazz out, guys, I really didn't go around ganking people lower than me. Except that one time that my arena 5v5 teamed up with another 5v5 and we went into Ragefire Chasm and started ganking everyone. But it eventually turned into a all 70s battle and it got pretty epic.

Leinad · « **Reply #15 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 11:43 »

Quote from: Linds on 04 Aug 2008, 09:46

That's also why I stopped doing battlegrounds, because the group of people waiting around in the graveyard to kill you when you rezzed was also annoying as hell.

In short, don't be a dick.

In short, don't suck so bad that you get GY camped... I mean, come on, if you guys are losing that bad then you have to have at least 3-10 AFKers(depending on the BG), and if oyu don't, /wrist.

Lines · « **Reply #16 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 11:52 »

Still don't like it, even if the person is my level. I don't like it when someone walks up behind me, stuns me, and then proceeds to kill my character when I am not expecting it and don't want them to. I don't mind PvP, but I think it can detract from the rest of the game when people you don't know come up and kill you for no reason. Ganking in general is just not appealing to me, at all.

Heroics are more fun than PvP anyways.

Also, seriously, whether I'm on the winning side of a BG or not, I always have shitheads camping the graveyard. I don't care if I lose, but I actually want to play, not be suddenly attacked by 3-4 people over and over because my character is more powerful than theirs one on one. If people start going AFK in a BG I'm in, I usually don't bother sticking around because it's not worth it.

Edit: I have a love/hate relationship with this game. I think it's a fun game, but there are so many things that annoy me that I will take breaks lasting up to a few months or more. There are people who like PvP, but I'm just not one of them.

Trollstormur · « **Reply #17 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 12:12 »

i used to play my girlfriend's character some times to level the poor guy up and if he got ganked I figured "yeah that's just how it goes" but if they killed him twice in a row or camped, I'd hop on my 70 vengeful gladiator shadow priest and knock their dick in the dirt until they logged. Rez at the graveyard? yeah i'm comin' to get ya.

Leinad · « **Reply #18 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 16:11 »

Quote from: Anyways on 04 Aug 2008, 12:33

Evil, heartless motherfucker with no remorse or compassion? I'd say that's the definition of a ganker.

Yay me! I like that.

And yeah, I was ganked like, 80 billion times when leveling up, but the most fun that really happens is pvping while leveling up your first toon, imho. I mean, getting your first ever world PvP kill** is the most awesome thing ever.

**Kill: Killing a player so that it yields HONOR. I never kill anyone that does not yield honor. Also, this is a mildly moot point, because I deleted all my characters.

Emaline · « **Reply #19 on:** 05 Aug 2008, 20:09 »

Man, Troll's post is soo much better if you read it in his avatar's voice.

McTaggart · « **Reply #20 on:** 06 Aug 2008, 14:22 »

Quote from: Leinad on 04 Aug 2008, 11:41

No no no, guys, i believe you misunderstand me. I wouldn't go around ganking people lower than me,

Sorry to single out this one thing, but I find it funny how everyone always reverts to this. It's not really an important distinction. Either way you're disrupting someone else's whatever-they're-doing.

Full disclosure: I play eve, a game where loss hurts as badly as you let it, and I'll hunt down anything I think I can kill. Half the time it's dirty unfair ganks, the other half of the time I fall for some trap or bite off more than I can chew and it's unfair the other way. Why? Sometimes I can make a profit off it, sometimes it's vengeance, sometimes it's because my corpmates will give me shit for not as ruthless as I can be and sometimes it's simply skulls for the skull throne (or rather corpses for the corpse hangar). Do I feel bad about it after the fact? Sometimes.

In eve at least you can minimise the risk of people ganking and scamming and cheating you. I'm sure this is possible in wow as well; if you don't want to be disrupted in your playing to be disrupted by griefers and gankers, take the steps you can to avoid them. You consent to pvp by playing the game.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #21 on:** 06 Aug 2008, 15:03 »

See, here's the thing though:

In WoW, there is no tangible loss to being ganked, nor is there tangible gain to doing so. The person killed doesn't lose XP or gold or even item durability. The person killing doesn't get XP or honor or gold. There is no outcome of someone sitting at a graveyard and killing people 40 levels below them when they rez except that they are doing it just to fuck with a dude. It's just being an asshole, no other reason.

I agree that you consent to PvP when you play on a PvP server, if it were limited to in-range PvP. If you are doing thing sin contested territory and someone a couple of levels above comes and kills you, well you should've been prepared, but you also could've put up enough of a fight to escape or even turn the tables and kill him. If a group of them comes and kill you, well that's the breaks, but you can still, in theory, escape with most classes if you see them coming. In either instance, there is some tangible benefit to them having attacked you (in the form of an honorable world PvP kill and the fact that you're doing quests in the same place they are and possibly even very similar ones) and it's just a hazard of the PvP environment. Honorable world PvP is excellent. I have enjoyed it on many occasions.

Furthermore, in Eve, it's actually entirely possible to succeed without entering low security zones and avoid PvP. It's low risk, low reward, but it's an option. This is not the case in WoW. After the first 20 levels, moving to PvP zones is required to simply progress through the game. There is no PvE option unless you just play a straight up PvE realm.

Honestly, there should've been a penalty for killing underleveled characters in contested areas in WoW. It just would've made sense. If dudes want to have an epic lvl 70 PvP brawl, that's what city raids are for.

est · « **Reply #22 on:** 06 Aug 2008, 19:11 »

Ozy's just laid out my thoughts on the matter pretty well, especially in the first paragraph.

Also though, back in Everquest PvP you lost XP, gold and on some servers one item per death. Corpse-camping was a pretty big deal and you could be banned for it if reported & caught. There was a tangible gain for killing other players though, in the form of the gold and item you looted from them. Some items were marked as NOLOOT if I recall right, but they were only high-level special items.

The gain was there, but there was also a fear of retaliation/official reprimand keeping most people from being pricks to one another. In WoW that doesn't exist, so people are free to be cocks to one another with impunity.

Leinad · « **Reply #23 on:** 07 Aug 2008, 18:45 »

Quote from: McTaggart on 06 Aug 2008, 14:22

Sorry to single out this one thing, but I find it funny how everyone always reverts to this. It's not really an important distinction. Either way you're disrupting someone else's whatever-they're-doing.

Which is kind of the point... if you are on a PvP realm or flagged for PvP then there is really nothing wrong with it, in fact, you are INVITING it... not just allowing it. I think that is kind of like, umm, correct me if I am wrong... the whole like... point? Of PvP? Maybe?

Quote from: Ozymandias on 06 Aug 2008, 15:03

See, here's the thing though:

In WoW, there is no tangible loss to being ganked, you don't gain honor

Yes you do. You do gain honor in world PvP if they are close to your level.

And as for a penalty for killing lower levels than you, I can kind of understand that, but there are just times when it is totally fine. I mean, going out and hunting a lowbie for no reason= bad. Killing one that is messing up players on your side already, fine. And as for massive brawls, go pvp anywhere in the Outlands and you will have a couple 70's there pretty fast, and it will just build up from there. In fact you can really start full on raid groups from just a minor little fight.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #24 on:** 07 Aug 2008, 19:57 »

Did you read the rest of what I wrote? I was clearly referring to out-of-level PvP.

Leinad · « **Reply #25 on:** 07 Aug 2008, 20:06 »

Yes, I did, I didn't gather that you were reffering to out of level pvping, unless that is the only way you use the word "gank" I guess.

est · « **Reply #26 on:** 07 Aug 2008, 23:35 »

Ganking is killing someone with a bunch of dudes, killing someone a lot lower level than you, or killing someone using shitty means.

clockworkjames · « **Reply #27 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 05:58 »

Wow, My rule of thumb is if you play on a PvP server, toughen the fuck up or go roll carebear. You choose a pvp server for the ability to kill anyone, that is how it is if you don't like it re-roll on PvE and stop fucking complaining, it's your own fault.

People are dicks about it, but the biggest dicks are the ones who play on a PvP server and moan about getting PK'd, PvP is IN THE NAME OF THE FUCKING SERVER SO GET OVER IT.

Also I played runescape for 2 weeks, never payed a penny so never got to try pvp.

Eris · « **Reply #28 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 07:28 »

This is est on Han's account.

"PvP" is on the server name, yes. "Being an utter fucking cockstain" is not.

There is PvP, then there is being a fucking jerk. I have played on PvP servers for a pretty long time. I know the fucking drill. I have had very fun experiences stemming from being ambushed by enemy players. Even when they are massively above my level and they kill me, laugh then move on that is totally cool! When there is a bunch of them and they kill me and laugh, then go about their business that is cool too! When they camp my corpse for no reason other than to piss me off I get a little miffed. As I said earlier, when it happened in previous games such as EQ it was a bannable offence. There was an unwritten agreement of loot & scoot. You let the defeated guy loot his stuff & leave the area, because by beating him you've won the right to the area. That's not quite as applicable any more either due to there being less in the way of camps as such, but surely there's some way of doing a similar thing.

I know it's probably expecting too much for anonymous dickshits to not be absolute cunts, but hey. I live in hope.

michaelicious · « **Reply #29 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 07:53 »

Quote from: Trollstormur on 04 Aug 2008, 12:12

i used to play my girlfriend's character some times to level the poor guy up and if he got ganked I figured "yeah that's just how it goes" but if they killed him twice in a row or camped, I'd hop on my 70 vengeful gladiator shadow priest and knock their dick in the dirt until they logged. Rez at the graveyard? yeah i'm comin' to get ya.

What is your priest's name? Getting Vengeful Gladiator as a shadow priest is pretty friggin' impressive.

My 70 is a shadow priest too, but I don't really play anymore.

Leinad · « **Reply #30 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 10:01 »

I only camp for a little bit, especially if I took the guy off-guard. I like to give him a chance to get revenge on me so I will hang around for at least one kill. And if after that he is not running away when he rezzes but attacking me I will keep fighting him til we get bored. It's actually really fun sometimes.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #31 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 11:16 »

I don't understand why I have to choose between PvE or bullshit assholes. Why can't I play on a server where the threat of PvP is there, but I'm not going to be harassed by dicks while trying to level? Why can't I level up in an area where it's possible to cross paths with someone of similar skill of the other faction and have a scuffle without it also being possible to just keep dying over and over in the graveyard because some dick is going kekekekekekekeke on my corpse?

Leinad · « **Reply #32 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 12:03 »

If that ever happens to me I do one of two things: Call in some guildies, or just log out and play a different toon for a little while. If someone wants to screw around with you like that it is simply going to happen. Honestly, I respect Blizzard for not following the route of many other games and softening the PvP aspect of the game in that regard. And if worst comes to worst, just corpse crawl back to your nearest faction base and let the guards terminate him for you.

Covetous · « **Reply #33 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 14:47 »

PvP is for Player vs Player, not "player will get as raped" (sorry for the french). But then again I cant relate to killing people that dont have chans. It simply is'nt any fun. Btw, I dont like killing insects just cus there in the way either. And its about the same situation. So, fighting people that's fair fight, go on. Hang around and kill them again and again is okey. But if you feel that killing lowbies is your only chans to win, go cuddle with you carebear. Hiting on lower levels are just trying to show of you MMORPG-e-penis, and honestly, that wont give you any respect in the universe.

So long live the (chaos) chicken system in war. If your in a place were you shouldnt be you will be transformed in to a chicken.

Trollstormur · « **Reply #34 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 15:27 »

Quote from: michaelicious on 08 Aug 2008, 07:53

Quote from: Trollstormur on 04 Aug 2008, 12:12
i used to play my girlfriend's character some times to level the poor guy up and if he got ganked I figured "yeah that's just how it goes" but if they killed him twice in a row or camped, I'd hop on my 70 vengeful gladiator shadow priest and knock their dick in the dirt until they logged. Rez at the graveyard? yeah i'm comin' to get ya.

What is your priest's name? Getting Vengeful Gladiator as a shadow priest is pretty friggin' impressive.

My 70 is a shadow priest too, but I don't really play anymore.

oh, i probably shoulda explained better: my shadow priest is in full vengeful gladiator, I wasn't on the #1 team for my server on the 3rd season of arena. I mostly was disc for all the arenaing anyway. (s'why i was able to get 2 sets of vengeful >.>)

SirHardHead · « **Reply #35 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 00:56 »

From reading this thread i have seen that:

People enjoy the ability to kill others within honor range.
People don't to get killed over and over by players much higher than they are.
People enjoy the fact that you can kill anyone in any pvp area.

Possibly they could grade areas like runescapes(old?) wilderness.(I hear they removed PvP?)
As you go to higher level areas in WoW you would be able to pvp against higher/lower level players.
This might prevent a high level player coming and senselessly killing lower level players.

This is just a thought and i am not saying this is how it should be.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #36 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 01:27 »

^ Which actually brings up a good point about why WoW's PvP is fucked.

The areas are sectioned off according to level, but they've actually done the opposite of that. It is actually easier for higher level characters to kill lower level characters in the areas that the lower level characters are supposed to be in. Leinad suggests going back to your nearest faction base, but faction base guards have levels according to the level of the area. So a level 70 character will actually have an easier time killing someone in a level 30 zone, because the guards are at most level 55 or so.

How does that make sense? If the faction guards are intended to create a safe zone, why scale them at all? A safe zone of level 70+ guards is safer than 55, and they'll kill someone of the other faction whose level is appropriate for the area just as quick.

McTaggart · « **Reply #37 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 02:00 »

Quote from: SirHardHead on 09 Aug 2008, 00:56

Possibly they could grade areas like runescapes(old?) wilderness.(I hear they removed PvP?)

I heard about this and I found it amazing the lengths they went to to remove all player interaction from thier mmo.

clockworkjames · « **Reply #38 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 03:20 »

I can see what you mean about wanting to be able to pvp but not constantly be ganked, it's like wanting your cake and still having cake to eat later.

It comes with the territory but the bottom line stands, if you can't take it on the chin when a lv67 comes over and sticks you, laughs then proceeeds to stab you in the face when you are lv 43 then you just obviously aren't cut out for PvP, roll PvE and then do battlegrounds.

I only get pissy about the bunch of people who complain and try to define PvP, It isn't always kill on site for everyone, but alot of the time it is and the point I stress is if you cannot deal with this then roll PvE because PvP is what it is not just what you want it to be.

I'm at i34 in a aircraft hangar sized hall with 2000 other gamers, loads are doing arena in WoW and a few are on AoC PvP servers killing people and grouping with others.

Call it dickery if you want but I feel the real dickery is people who complain.

Leinad · « **Reply #39 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 09:35 »

EH, I still don't have much of a problem with corpse-camping. It has happened to me, and I do it to others, and if it gets really frustrating I remember, it is just a game. So it doesn't really bother me.

Alex C · « **Reply #40 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 10:59 »

I'd be more sympathetic with the "well, it's what you signed up for" mindset if I hadn't seen things like players wandering around and slowly kicking lowbies to death (I mean that quite literally, by the way-- Let me tell you though, it takes forever to kill someone when all you're using is a spell interrupt that also happens to deal nominal damage) or hadn't seen my own guildies once get bored, head off to the Stonetalon Mountains and just repeatedly mindcontrol some poor slob and make him dive off cliffs. Of course, the nasty part about the Stonetalon Mountains is that there's really more moehills there than cliffs, so again, it takes a while to kill a guy that way. In fact, diminishing returns nearly makes it impossible-- unless, of course, you have a rogue nearby sapping the guy occasionally so you can wait out the 15 second timer.

Ã¶de · « **Reply #41 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 12:17 »

Quote from: McTaggart on 09 Aug 2008, 02:00

Quote from: SirHardHead on 09 Aug 2008, 00:56
Possibly they could grade areas like runescapes(old?) wilderness.(I hear they removed PvP?)

I heard about this and I found it amazing the lengths they went to to remove all player interaction from thier mmo.

You'd understand if you played it when it first started getting popular. You'll probably understand if you try to play now. It's a shame, because once you get past the 'ooh, a whole world to explore' bit the only decent thing about the game was the other players.

bryanthelion · « **Reply #42 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 09:08 »

There was once this HUGE ass battle on the twisted Nether server. I dont remember exactly where it was. (it was in a level 30 zone, which had both alliance and horde cities, and it was REALLY green) There was atleast 70 characters duking it out, the lag was incredible.

Trollstormur · « **Reply #43 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 10:09 »

I keep reading and talking about WoW online. I don't really wanna restart, but i keep finding myself in WoW communities for a while just talking about the game.

Trollstormur · « **Reply #44 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 10:24 »

I have a free alternative right now, so I'm lucky in that regard. when I quit, I hit the end-game crossroads. either a. quit or start making more alts or b. get a 60 hour a week job as a raider for some purples

first i chose b but then a. the fancy ass purples i do got are nifty as hell though.

Leinad · « **Reply #45 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 11:26 »

Quote from: Trollstormur on 10 Aug 2008, 10:09

I keep reading and talking about WoW online. I don't really wanna restart, but i keep finding myself in WoW communities for a while just talking about the game.

That is exactly the same thing with me, brother. If I had a job I would be playing again, but I cannot afford it ATM.

imagist42 · « **Reply #46 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 14:32 »

I would be playing it if I had no other ambitions in life, but after getting to 70 I just could not put in enough time to find the game at all rewarding. That said I will probably play again sometime after WotLK comes out, just to level to 80, but unless they seriously revamp the endgame I won't last much past that point.

est · « **Reply #47 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 17:03 »

I got back into this a little while ago and got a Warrior to 50ish pretty quickly. Then my main machine died on me and I was playing it on my laptop for a bit, which was ok I guess but felt less fun. Then I dunno, I reinstalled stuff on my main machine but started playing other games and haven't really played it all that much for a couple months. I should play again, because I was having a lot of fun with it, but the task to re-installing and patching all over again up doesn't sound like fun right now.

Yakob · « **Reply #48 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 17:29 »

I think i have some form of WoW ADD. I have a 62 rogue, two hunters in the high 40's, a preist in the low 40's and I'd say about 10 characters in the 20-40 range. I just get bored.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #49 on:** 10 Aug 2008, 17:34 »

Reinstalling WoW basically takes 4 hours.

It is hell.

I do it every three months.

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Author Topic: World of Warcraft (Read 694283 times)

SirHardHead