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Author Topic: Graphic Novels/Comic Books  (Read 50085 times)

lprkn

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #100 on: 30 Dec 2008, 13:21 »

The fact that you dislike Watchmen is not really what I'm taking issue with. When something is widely acclaimed, there will the minority who don't like it for whatever reason, valid or no.

It's your general approach to art/entertainment/whatever. I just don't think that making up your mind once about something and holding to that impression come hell or high water is a good approach. Times change, people change. I watched Apocalypse Now as a young teenager and I didn't like it. I saw it again, when I was older, and I had to change what I thought about the film. Art is not something that necessarily must be enjoyed, sometimes it takes a little intellectual legwork to appreciate what it's going for.

I'm not going to talk about the themes and artistic significance of Watchmen, because anybody who wants to can find them on the internet. Wikipedia has a decent write-up on its construction and themes.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #101 on: 30 Dec 2008, 13:40 »

You see, your problem is poor assumption.

I'm not an idiot. I know tastes change. When I was eleven, I thought the first Mortal Kombat movie was absolute genius. Upon watching it about ten years later, I realized I had really poor taste in movies as an eleven year old.

I read Watchmen for the first time when I was 22 and I'm 24 now. My tastes have not changed so significantly in a span of two years that I see any logical reason to go back and scan through something I wasn't all that keen on previously. That simply does not make an ounce of sense.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #102 on: 30 Dec 2008, 21:48 »

Have we discussed Pride of Baghdad? Or just Pride?  It's pretty amazing but a review on the back says it's just as good as Watchmen which made me cringe.

Also....if I want to get into Spiderman, what should I be getting (graphic novels or compilations...I can't get into issues). 
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #103 on: 30 Dec 2008, 23:52 »

Jon, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon, Watchmen is the greatest graphic novel ever written, and you seem to have missed a fair bit of it.

Personally the thing that does it for me with Watchmen is the incredible scope of it.  There is SO MUCH GOING ON in that book, and it is all integrated into a seamless whole.  I'm pretty sure I still haven't exhausted the levels on which the book can be understood, and I already think it's the most successfully complex and multifaceted graphic novel in history.  There are simply no chinks in the universe.  Any one of the stories in it (Rorschach's story, Dr. Manhattan's story, Ozymandias's story, The Comedian's story, Nite Owl's story, Silk Spectre's story, etc., etc., etc.) could be a successful stand-alone work, even the minor characters like the libertarian news editor or the lesbian couple or the psychologist are exceptionally developed, but Moore has managed to put them ALL into a single work without losing the power of any of them or sacrificing the story to the characters.  I don't think any of it could be taken out and I don't think anything could be added.

Anyway, I just read Warren Ellis's "Black Summer," and it's awesome.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #104 on: 31 Dec 2008, 06:16 »

Also....if I want to get into Spiderman, what should I be getting (graphic novels or compilations...I can't get into issues). 

Depends on whether or not you really give an honest rat's ass about reading the original. If not, I'd say just go right into Ultimate Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man is one of those start from scratch modernizations of a classic character in an alternate continuity specifically tailored for new readers. It's a bit decompressed, but it pretty much captures the essence of the character without seeming to hokey. It also has the benefit of having been handled by a single writer for its entire run thus far (129 issues) without having actively crossed over with anything, so you don'[t need any other books to get what's going on (Even guest appearances are always well handled and self contained).

Start here: Ultimate Spider-Man Ultimate Collection. If you dig it, keep on going, though if you do, note that that trade actually encompasses the first two volumes, so you'd want to continue on with volume 3.

If you're into main continuity stuff or eventually want something different, I'd personally recommend the following:

Death of the Stacys: This isn't actually two adjacent storylines, but two slightly intertwined stories from the seventies, the second of which is probably the most well known Spider-Man storyline in comics circles.

Kraven'[s Last Hunt: From the eighties, easily one of the best Spider-Man stories ever done.

Spider-Man: Reign: Literally not much more than a rip-off of Dark Knight Returns, except with Spider-Man. It's an enjoyable read, however, because the writer's making no illusions otherwise. It's clearly borrowing from DKR and doing it well.

Avoid any collection with the words 'Venom,' 'Carnage' or 'Clone' in the title.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #105 on: 31 Dec 2008, 07:23 »

I just read the GN adaptation of Gaiman's Neverwhere.  It was... okay.  I'm ambivalent about it and will probably have to reread both it and the novel to fully flesh out my impression.  It's an incredibly quick read, or maybe I just read it to fast and that's the problem I had with it.  I understand that the adaptationist had to cut a lot and change a few things, but the story just advanced far too quickly.  By putting it all into a visual medium like that, it cut out the majority of the strangeness because it no longer had to be filtered through our own perceptions and preconceptions.  And by making it so short, there was pretty much no time to see Dick's reaction to anything.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #106 on: 31 Dec 2008, 07:28 »

Honestly, you shouldn't have even bothered. Novel/movie/TV adaptations into comic book format are pretty much universally terrible. I don't think I've ever read a single good one.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #107 on: 31 Dec 2008, 07:34 »

Well, Buffy the Vampire Slayer has made a successful transition, though not adaptation, to the GN format.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #108 on: 31 Dec 2008, 07:41 »

Yeah, pretty different, though. The Transformers comic is allegedly pretty good and even Gargoyles had a brief, but successful, run as a comic. Direct adaptations pretty much invariably fall flat, though.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #109 on: 31 Dec 2008, 10:31 »

It's definitely a step up form [email protected] in that aspect, though. Jesus Christ, what an atrocious mess that is.

Oh god, I didn't know what I was going into.  I read through the first TPB and thought it was pretty good, then I downloaded the rest and started to freak out.  Why did it turn into some sort of cosmic fuckfest to save the universe?

Oh, one thing with the symbiotes from Spider-man:  anything with Venom or Carnage is terrible, but I found that I enjoyed the recent Toxin TPB and wish they would do more with him, though I doubt anything will thanks to OMD.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #110 on: 01 Jan 2009, 12:29 »

Pride of Bhagdad is good, but it is nowhere near Watchmen, and doesn't really explore themes that haven't been beaten to death already.


Pride of Bhagdad is about the lions right? if that is the case, i would have to disagree completely. I found Pride of Baghdad much more engaging and relevant. I had a lot of trouble relating to any of the characters in the watchmen.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #111 on: 01 Jan 2009, 13:27 »

See also:

Serenity: Those Left Behind

Man, what a terrible comic.

Oh god yes, I read part of this during a break at my old job (barnes and noble lolol), and it was a fucking trainwreck. However, I did really like the art for the Neverwhere GN. The storytelling was a little bit rushed, but I thought the art was excellent.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #112 on: 01 Jan 2009, 13:37 »

Definitely.  Couldn't complain about the art.  I think the GN would have been good if it were about twice as long.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #113 on: 01 Jan 2009, 19:21 »

For one reason or another I couldn't get through the first TPB for Rex Mundi.

Any way, something else that you should definitely pick up is the Immortal Iron Fist.  I don't know if you know the character, but he was some kung fu based super hero Marvel decided to make back when kung fu was all the rage.  Well the decided to make him as awesome as he should be with a new series, which has two TPB's out right now I think.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #114 on: 01 Jan 2009, 19:38 »

Is Gerard Way's comic, The Umbrella Academy worth my time?
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #115 on: 01 Jan 2009, 22:24 »

i saw that in the shelf the other day as well the other day, it looked intriguing. It is the one with the cello lady on the front, am i correct?

how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #116 on: 01 Jan 2009, 22:43 »

It might have already been discussed, but how about Kingdom Come? I remember reading it as a kid, but I didn't really "get it" back then. I found it buried in my closet yesterday and whipped through it again...I really love the art in it, and the plot is pretty good if overdramatic.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #117 on: 01 Jan 2009, 23:37 »

how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?

You're serious, right?
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #118 on: 02 Jan 2009, 00:57 »

I am! Literally every single Marvel comic I have seen has been about some ridiculous looking dude in a suit. The exception is the punisher, but I never really warmed to him... frank castle is a cold hearted sonofabitch. i know dc has their own line of superhero silliness, but the dc/vertigo stuff tends to be pretty good.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #119 on: 02 Jan 2009, 01:52 »

Ed Brubaker's Criminal is supposed to be quite good, as far as separation from superheroes.  I haven't read it, but I've loved Brubaker's work on other comics, so I imagine it has much potential.  Marvel also does a whole line of literary adaptations, such as Stephen King's The Stand and Dark Tower, Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game, and The Wizard of Oz.
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lprkn

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #120 on: 02 Jan 2009, 10:58 »

If you're not willing to read about a "ridiculous dude in a suit" then you're missing out on some good stuff. A lot of bad stuff, but some good stuff, too. The aforementioned Immortal Iron Fist is one of the good ones.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #121 on: 02 Jan 2009, 12:41 »

Hm. it's not so much the suits, more the fact that these series run forever. I like stories with a definite ending and preferably with one artist and writer, I'm not so hot on Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, Daredevil and the likes. does immortal iron fist have an ending?

Oh by the way I also recently read Wanted by mark millar, which was pretty decent. has anyone else read it?
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #122 on: 02 Jan 2009, 16:55 »

how do you people feel about marvel/dc in general? it always seemed to me like marvel held a slightly sillier, more spandex-oriented line than dc, which always looked more, well, artistically motivated. i never really liked the general everlasting superhero idea, has marvel got any non-spandex comics worth checking out?

First, I'll cover the misconception:

DC actually pretty much invented super hero comics. I've read both off and on and DC is actually MUCH sillier in terms of overall characters, storylines and themes overall.

In terms of non-spandex Marvel, though, Punisher's about it right now. The non-spandex stuff overall just doesn't sell, so not much is produced. Even the Vertigo line is barely clinging at this point.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #123 on: 02 Jan 2009, 22:35 »

I haven't been reading comics for a long time so what's hot right now doesn't really matter that much. i've just seen the difference between shelves at the store, the marvel line tends to carry stuff like runaways (i agree with jeans on this comic) whereas dc is more along preacher, transmetropolitan, sandman and the likes. i know dc has their share of spandex as well, but i haven't seen any marvel of preacher quality yet - i haven't really been looking though.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #124 on: 02 Jan 2009, 22:56 »

Lets not overly confuse DC and Vertigo.  Sure they are the same entity, but they aren't, know what I'm sayin'
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #125 on: 02 Jan 2009, 23:16 »

Is Gerard Way's comic, The Umbrella Academy worth my time?

I found that Umbrella Academy: Apocalypse Suite was actually pretty good.  A lot of weird, kind of Silver Age, random shit going on, but some how Gerard Way makes it work.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #126 on: 03 Jan 2009, 10:29 »

Gerard Way?


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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #127 on: 03 Jan 2009, 11:12 »

Same guy.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #128 on: 03 Jan 2009, 12:22 »

I haven't been reading comics for a long time so what's hot right now doesn't really matter that much. i've just seen the difference between shelves at the store, the marvel line tends to carry stuff like runaways (i agree with jeans on this comic) whereas dc is more along preacher, transmetropolitan, sandman and the likes. i know dc has their share of spandex as well, but i haven't seen any marvel of preacher quality yet - i haven't really been looking though.

Those are technically Vertigo (an imprint of DC) titles. They mostly have nothing to do with mainstream DC continuity. DC is actually more along the lines of JLA, Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #129 on: 03 Jan 2009, 13:35 »

Lets not overly confuse DC and Vertigo.  Sure they are the same entity, but they aren't, know what I'm sayin'

This. DC and Vertigo have about as much to do with each other as DC has to do with Animaniacs. Sure, they're all owned by the same folks, but that's about where the similarities stop. There was some very vague crossover back when the line started, but the two have been completely different entities for close to twenty years now.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #130 on: 03 Jan 2009, 13:49 »

So you do, "know what I'm sayin'"
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #131 on: 11 Jan 2009, 12:17 »

For anybody who's interested, CBR is doing a thing called "Re-Reading Watchmen" in which they take retrospective critical look at the series. So far, they're up to Issue #4 (an English professor joins them for that one). Good stuff.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #132 on: 12 Jan 2009, 11:56 »

so i just bought V for Vendetta. i haven't started reading it yet because i want to finish what i'm reading right now first.

opinions to follow upon completion.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #133 on: 14 Jan 2009, 12:40 »

Re: Watchmen, Alan Moore in gerneral.

While I don't particulairly have a problem with Watchmen, I do think the years have been overly kind to it, much in the same way they have been to Dark Knight.  Moore's a smart man, an inventive man.  I do think he crammed a ton of info and inventiveness into the story.  I do think he expanded upon the method of constructing narrative within the form, but do I think the story is any great shakes? Not particularly.  I think he transplanted the tropes, ideas, themes and methodology of one or more forms of litererature and moved them into another.  The fact that he was the first to do so in comics makes him a smart man.  I think Watchmen kind of falls prey to Moore reminding everyone how damned smart that structure and his writing itself is constantly, which is a problem I have with a lot of his work, save for the dreck he wrote for Image in the nineties.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #134 on: 14 Jan 2009, 13:50 »

i just realized that the three graphic novels i've bought since i started this thread have all been Alan Moore (Watchmen, The Killing Joke, V for Vendetta). i didn't even realize i was doing it, but i guess it says something about the guy that everything by him came the most highly recommended and appealed the most to me.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #135 on: 14 Jan 2009, 23:22 »

Re: Watchmen, Alan Moore in gerneral.

While I don't particulairly have a problem with Watchmen, I do think the years have been overly kind to it, much in the same way they have been to Dark Knight.  Moore's a smart man, an inventive man.  I do think he crammed a ton of info and inventiveness into the story.  I do think he expanded upon the method of constructing narrative within the form, but do I think the story is any great shakes? Not particularly.  I think he transplanted the tropes, ideas, themes and methodology of one or more forms of litererature and moved them into another.  The fact that he was the first to do so in comics makes him a smart man.  I think Watchmen kind of falls prey to Moore reminding everyone how damned smart that structure and his writing itself is constantly, which is a problem I have with a lot of his work, save for the dreck he wrote for Image in the nineties.

Spoilers--

Other than the alien thing that sort of comes out of left field, what's not "great" about the plot?
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #136 on: 15 Jan 2009, 03:28 »

I don't have a problem with the plot, per se.  What I do have a problem with is the idea of it being as engrossing as everyone tends to believe it is.  The structure, the mechanics of the book itself are so rigid that I find it very cold and lifeless.  I know that this is by far a minority opinion.  I think the innovation in terms of said story structure and mechanics kind of shunted the plot and its potential impact.  I admire it for being what it was at the time time, and being one of the first of its kind, but I also believe, despite what many critics and Moore himself have said, that other authors, artists and series have surpassed by leaps and bounds.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #137 on: 15 Jan 2009, 04:43 »

Examples please?

I mean, I don't think it's the best comic ever written, but I can't think of many things which beat it by leaps and bounds.  And if we're going to stay in the super-hero genre, I don't think I can come up with anything.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #138 on: 15 Jan 2009, 06:10 »

Examples?  As far as the impact being lessened?  I'm not sure I can do that, as it's more a personal feeling, and as I stated, I realize I'm in the minority in my opinion on feelings for the book.  As far as other books that take and spin the superhero genre into decidedly different and more inventive directions that open more doors and more possibilities; that personally hit me harder than Watchmen did?  Shade, The Changing Man, for one.  I realize it's an ongoing series, yes.  And you do have to stick with it for a while to get your bearings, but it explodes the idea of superheroes severeal times over in its 70 issue run, and nothing is ever constant.  I hold up issues 17 through 50 as some of the best, most inventive, heartbreaking, horrifying and touching comics ever written.  I also know that Shade probably wouldn't have come about without there having been a Watchmen, so credit where credit is due.

Oh, and apologies for all the grammer gaffs in my previous post.  It was early and my mind is mush.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #139 on: 15 Jan 2009, 06:50 »

Everyone remember a couple pages back where I went on a tirade about how Grant Morrison is actually a pretty shit writer?

Well, I read Final Crisis #6 last night. This just in: Grant Morrison is still a pretty shit writer.


So, aside from the fact it was almost impenetrably poorly paced and jumpy, the scripting was terrible and it was little more than a "hey remember this golden age forgotten subplot/character/bad idea that was best left forgotten" wankfest. The ending sucked and came out of nowhere on top of everything. Batman just suddenly shows up with a "god-killing bullet" that was used to kill a superhero earlier in the series and for some reason he was allowed to just kind of hold onto while kept prisoner. So Batman shoots a god, gets killed and then Superman shows up, again out of nowhere having been off the table the entire series, and starts blowing shit up because he's pissed about Batman being dead, not that it's explained where he was or how the fuck he knew Batman was dead.


I swear. This fucking hack probably plots shit like the manatees in that episode of South Park where they tell us how Family Guy makes such shitty plots. He just kind of throws things out there in the hopes that at least some of his wacky bullshit sticks.
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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #140 on: 15 Jan 2009, 07:05 »

I jumped in this thread because I thought I had a few comics to recommend... (Walking Dead, Watchmen, V4V).  Boy am I behind things...  You guys have given me a bunch of new fodder for my own reading time...  Thanks guys... You've just cost me a bunch of money...

 :-D
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vegkitkat

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #141 on: 16 Jan 2009, 11:01 »

So guys, I'm taking a class on graphic novels, and for our final project we have to pick and analyze a graphic novel. However, it cannot be Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come or Maus, as we're studying all those in class. What would you reccomend for a 20 year old girl? I'd rather do something more based upon superheroes, possible alternate realities, but I don't have the best knowledge of what would be most appealing.
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Dazed

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #142 on: 16 Jan 2009, 12:14 »

World's End from the Sandman series in my opinion. It's part of the series, but it can stand alone fairly well I think.
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Tom

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #143 on: 16 Jan 2009, 13:57 »

Vegikitkat, if you're after superheroes then try Top 10 by Alan Moore, possibly a collection of Brian Michael Bendis' Powers, Alex Ross' Earth X, an alternate future for the Marvel universe or Kingdom Come which is also by Ross and, unsurprisingly is thematically similar to Earth X but about only a third the length of it with lost of apocalyptic/judeo-christian imagery. They all deal with power and responsibility in societies were almost everyone has powers and have seemingly forgotten Ben Parker's maxim. Powers and Top 10 also combine aspects of crime fiction genres.
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2009, 14:00 by Tom »
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Blue Kitty

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #144 on: 16 Jan 2009, 16:59 »

She can't do Kingdom Come man.

I would say the Walking Dead would be great to do a paper on. 
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dancarter

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #145 on: 17 Jan 2009, 01:45 »

A fwe more to choose from, Vegikitkat:
Enigma by Peter Milligan and Duncan Fegredo
The Fountain by Kent Williams (Yeah, it is based on the movie, but it is not the same.  It's adapted from a shooting script taken from the scrapped original).
The Mystery Play by Grant Morrison and Jon J Muth
Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman and Chris Bachalo
Channel Zero by Brian Wood
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vegkitkat

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #146 on: 18 Jan 2009, 15:17 »

The issue is, I'm not sure if I'm doing a paper or some other type of project on the novel that I choose. I was considering possibly doing Marvels; am I choosing something completely awful? Because I tend to prefer Marvel to DC.
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Blue Kitty

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #147 on: 18 Jan 2009, 15:33 »

Oh no, Marvels is awesome.  Heck, I recommended it on the first page.
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carrotosaurus

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #148 on: 18 Jan 2009, 15:40 »

Seconded, Marvels is a quality read.
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vegkitkat

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Re: Graphic Novels/Comic Books
« Reply #149 on: 18 Jan 2009, 16:05 »

Excellent, I have just ordered it and am seriously looking forward to reading it.
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