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[Rocketman]

So, if people are walking around telling other people that I'm an atheist, and I'm walking around telling people who will actually listen that I believe in all the Gods... it's going to make someone look like a liar. So why do we have to use the label at all?

The problem there is them using the wrong label. You're a polytheist.

And, if you don't mind me asking, how do you reconcile incompatible gods?

[RovingSoul]

Well, it's a difficult sell to be sure. Mostly I don't think that any one religion has the right to tell all of the other religions that they're full of crap. Especially if those other religions have been around for much longer. So, I go with the story that they're all up there, or around us, or whatever, only some of them (ahem, the Chrisitian/Muslim God) are greedy, and want all the worshipping for themselves. So they tell all their followers that they are the only God, and to make it stick, if you believe in any others, you're going to hell. So, if that's what you mean by imcompatible Gods, there you go. If you mean something else, enlighten me, and I'm sure I can think of some ridiculous answer.

(I also say that it's irrational to believe in any Gods (goes over well in classes with Christians, lol) and so people assume that I don't beleive in God(s), but I do. I just know that it's an irrational belief.)

[JonSnow]

Well, it's a difficult sell to be sure. Mostly I don't think that any one religion has the right to tell all of the other religions that they're full of crap. Especially if those other religions have been around for much longer. So, I go with the story that they're all up there, or around us, or whatever, only some of them (ahem, the Chrisitian/Muslim God) are greedy, and want all the worshipping for themselves. So they tell all their followers that they are the only God, and to make it stick, if you believe in any others, you're going to hell. So, if that's what you mean by imcompatible Gods, there you go. If you mean something else, enlighten me, and I'm sure I can think of some ridiculous answer.

(I also say that it's irrational to believe in any Gods (goes over well in classes with Christians, lol) and so people assume that I don't beleive in God(s), but I do. I just know that it's an irrational belief.)

Well excuse me but as Jews, Muslims and Christians all use the old testament, it's safe to assume that Allah, Jahwe and the Christian God are one and the same God. Don't tell the extremist believers of any of those religions but it is true. Even though a lot of Jews, muslims and christians dont want to accept it they all worship the same God, they just give him a different name. So believing in all 3 of those would mean you believe in 1 God after-all. Ofcourse if you believe in all the Gods, you also believe in Zeus, aphrodite, Hera,... (the greek gods) Jupiter, Venus, ... (the roman gods, aka the greek gods with other names), Ra, Isis, Seth, ... (the egyptian gods). Ganesh, Brahma, Vishnu (hindu gods), Thor, Balder, Loki, Odin, Frey,... (the norse gods) and all the african tribal religions, and somewhere you also believe in a man, you believe in Buddha. So do you believe in all these? Or are just somebody who doesnt really know what (or wants) to believe, but doesnt want to be labeled an atheïst?

[RovingSoul]

Well, it's a difficult sell to be sure. Mostly I don't think that any one religion has the right to tell all of the other religions that they're full of crap. Especially if those other religions have been around for much longer. So, I go with the story that they're all up there, or around us, or whatever, only some of them (ahem, the Chrisitian/Muslim God) are greedy, and want all the worshipping for themselves. So they tell all their followers that they are the only God, and to make it stick, if you believe in any others, you're going to hell. So, if that's what you mean by imcompatible Gods, there you go. If you mean something else, enlighten me, and I'm sure I can think of some ridiculous answer.

(I also say that it's irrational to believe in any Gods (goes over well in classes with Christians, lol) and so people assume that I don't beleive in God(s), but I do. I just know that it's an irrational belief.)

Well excuse me but as Jews, Muslims and Christians all use the old testament, it's safe to assume that Allah, Jahwe and the Christian God are one and the same God. Don't tell the extremist believers of any of those religions but it is true. Even though a lot of Jews, muslims and christians dont want to accept it they all worship the same God, they just give him a different name. So believing in all 3 of those would mean you believe in 1 God after-all. Ofcourse if you believe in all the Gods, you also believe in Zeus, aphrodite, Hera,... (the greek gods) Jupiter, Venus, ... (the roman gods, aka the greek gods with other names), Ra, Isis, Seth, ... (the egyptian gods). Ganesh, Brahma, Vishnu (hindu gods), Thor, Balder, Loki, Odin, Frey,... (the norse gods) and all the african tribal religions, and somewhere you also believe in a man, you believe in Buddha. So do you believe in all these? Or are just somebody who doesnt really know what (or wants) to believe, but doesnt want to be labeled an atheïst?

Just for the record, you don't have to try and prove how smart you are, cause I could list so many more. Religion is my life. Rather the study of religion. And as I said before, I believe that they are all there, and that people shouldn't be penalized because they pick one over the other. And an athiest wouldn't believe in any of them. An agnostic wouldn't know what to believe.

[JonSnow]

I find hard to believe that you can believe and have faith in all of them. The Gods are there to seek guidance (especially if religion is your life), and well you would get 20 different opinions by going to all of them. You'd be sacrificing a rough dozen of sheep, to get your answers and Jahwe will tell you your mistake is believing in Zeus, while Zeus will tell you your mistake lies in not bringing the right sacrifice. Or maybe you believe but do not practice the religions. like all those christians who dont go to church, but are labeled christians cause they live in a christian country. I doubt you uphold the traditions of all these religions, and some of these religions are all about tradition (and not upholding them is the same as not believing)

[jtheory]

I think RovingSoul's point was more about why the labels are often counter-productive.
I say I'm an "atheist", but I often then have to follow that with a list of atheist stereotypes that don't apply to me.

If you say you believe in various gods, then everything gets tangled up in what you mean by "believe".  Plus, you can believe in a god's existence at some level without at all needing to obey it in any way.

You could say that any deity "exists" in a sense (and deserves this level of belief) as long as there are people who follow/worship it... so it may be worthwhile to pay it at least enough attention to figure out what ideals/morals/etc. are wrapped up in its concept.

If you actually believe in the supernatural but don't arbitrarily choose one (by birth or otherwise), it's tough to reconcile them.  Jon, there are enormous inconsistencies even between the messages from the "one" God as recorded by various prophets (from Moses to Jesus to Mohammad to Joseph Smith to others...).  It's just as possible to conclude that:
* the prophets were all terribly unreliable and/or their sacred texts were very poorly copied over time even by the faithful
* these were actually multiple different deities who each claimed to be the only one (and was deluded or lying), or
* it was one deity who simply changed its mind about a huge number of things over time.

Either way, there's not much of a requirement to obey these unreliable second-hand instructions from possibly just as unreliable deities.  They can't even get their stories straight internally.  But you can *believe* in them if you find it interesting.

[Rocketman]

So, if that's what you mean by imcompatible Gods, there you go. If you mean something else, enlighten me, and I'm sure I can think of some ridiculous answer.

Well, to jump to the nitty-gritty: Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God, while Muslims believe He was just one of God's prophets. How do you reconcile this?

[pwhodges]

Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God

And. more to the point, God (as part of the Trinity).

[JonSnow]

So, if that's what you mean by imcompatible Gods, there you go. If you mean something else, enlighten me, and I'm sure I can think of some ridiculous answer.

Well, to jump to the nitty-gritty: Christians believe Jesus was the Son of God, while Muslims believe He was just one of God's prophets. How do you reconcile this?

The fact that they both believe in the same god just have a different opinion on who was the messiah or a prophet, doesnt change that it's one and the same god

[RovingSoul]

I believe that they all exist. That doesn't mean that I worship or agree with them all. Like, most American's would agree that Communism, Socialism, etc. exist, but we don't necessarily agree with their values or what they teach. However, just because we disagree with them doesn't mean that we disregard their existence.

[sevti]

As an atheist, I will never tell someone that their god(s) do(es) not exist.  I will tell them I don't believe in a god's influence on my life or death, but what does it matter so long as you are content with what you believe?  If they want to "save" me I have to stop/leave/change discussion.  Every religion is a door to the same end, and we each have a key.  My key fits the door with no scripture, no face, an absence of something to touch and realize.  Others have keys to doors with the Torah, or the Bible, or the Koran, or Buddah, or anything else.  That doesn't make their key any less real.  So if I was asked, "do you believe all gods exist?" and I could only answer yes or no, I would have to answer yes.  But if the question was "do you have faith in one or all gods?" the answer would be no.  I hope this helps settle the "that's not atheism" response.

Thaaaat said, pretty sure religion is one of those taboo things, although the strip did beg for it a bit.  I'll admit I haven't perused all 6 pages, but I am sure anything I could possibly say that is on-topic (Penelope's particular brand of atheism) would be wholly redundant.

[Demarken]

That's a nice semantic trick, saying that assuming something doesn't exist isn't the same as believing it doesn't.

Whether you like it or not, some atheists do say "There definitely is no God, period."  If you think you're not one of them, that's between you and... well, the Tooth Fairy, I suppose.   

Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?

[jtheory]

I believe that they all exist. That doesn't mean that I worship or agree with them all. Like, most American's would agree that Communism, Socialism, etc. exist, but we don't necessarily agree with their values or what they teach. However, just because we disagree with them doesn't mean that we disregard their existence.

But deities aren't normally defined as abstract sets of ideas developed by people, like Communism, Socialism and so on.  They're defined at a minimum as supernatural, sentient entities with varying superhuman powers.  What do you mean by their "existing"?  Related: would you say the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists?

If you "believe that they all exist" but you just mean "these concepts of deities exist", that's going to muddle up a lot of people; you wouldn't say "I believe that hobgoblins exist" when you actually mean that yes, there are plenty of people who have very clear ideas of what hobgoblins are like and believe they exist... so that CONCEPT definitely exists.

I'm not sure that's what you're saying; do you think all of these gods exist in the sense that they have ever actually influenced physical reality separate from the secondary influence of believers?

[...] but what does it matter so long as you are content with what you believe?  If they want to "save" me I have to stop/leave/change discussion.

I think most atheists would agree that people have the right to believe what they want to, though that right needs to stop when it infringes on *others'* rights.  Unfortunately, many major religions don't include caveats that "the other folks are just as likely to be correct as you are, if not more so".  As a result, religious beliefs very quickly start to influence laws, political choices, education, etc. etc., all of which are things you can't just walk away from.

There's more on this earlier in the thread, I think.

Every religion is a door to the same end, and we each have a key.  My key fits the door with no scripture, no face, an absence of something to touch and realize.  Others have keys to doors with the Torah, or the Bible, or the Koran, or Buddah, or anything else.  That doesn't make their key any less real.

We're all born into this world knowing nothing; then we are bombarded with varying (and sometimes conflicting) explanations and models for the functioning of the world from all sides.  They aren't all equally valid or even useful based on what we can actually know about the world -- you have to discard many, many bits along the way as you decide what works and what doesn't.

I don't like the metaphor of a door & key, because religion is far more complex than that -- and you can, in fact, pick and choose the useful bits from the non-useful bits in any religion's enormous and multilayered array of beliefs.  AND each bit will modify the way you think and interact with the world -- it's not true that any set of beliefs will lead you to the same result.  The important thing is to actively evaluate as much as possible.

[Jackie Blue]

Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?

Well, yes.  I wasn't talking about painting all atheists with one broad stroke, I was saying that people who claim that there are not a significant number of atheists who believe there definitely is no God are being factually inaccurate, just as it would be inaccurate to claim there aren't any Christians who believe everyone except their particular branch of that religion is going to a literal fiery burny place when they die.

[Demarken]

Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?

Well, yes.  I wasn't talking about painting all atheists with one broad stroke, I was saying that people who claim that there are not a significant number of atheists who believe there definitely is no God are being factually inaccurate, just as it would be inaccurate to claim there aren't any Christians who believe everyone except their particular branch of that religion is going to a literal fiery burny place when they die.

Well, correct me if I'm interpreting you wrongly, but it sounds like you're saying that your partial characterization is more accurate?

If so, I'd have to strongly disagree with you.  When I first saw your initial post, I was at first really confused by your underplaying of literal-interpretationists.  See, I'm from central Iowa, and we have one of those conservative, evangelical megachurches in my hometown.  When you talk about literal-interpretationists as rare or a myth, it's striking a complete dischord with everything in my personal experience.  There are lots of people I know who do, very firmly, believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God, and that everything in it is a perfect transcript of history.  A few of my closer friends do strongly believe that my other-denominational Christian friends are going to hell.  They definitely are NOT the majority, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean they aren't a sizeable chunk of the population.  By denomination, they're a plurality here, about 1 in every 4 Christians.  And it's actually lower here, in our fairly liberal college town; accross the U.S., a 2001 poll showed that 41% of Christians see the Bible as the literal and perfect word of God.  (Based on their last poll before that, I'd say that it's most likely about 33% today, but do not have current data)

So, I don't mean to say "ALL XIANS ARE FANATIC YOUNG-EARTHERS OMG," but it's just as inaccurate as downplaying the militant atheists.  Either is understandable, really, because we never hear from the others.  Absolutely none of the majority of Christians I know, the more laid-back type, have ever really discussed religion with me.  Only the hard-core evangelicals touch it.  So even though I know they aren't the majority view, their arguments are the ones that come to mind when I think about religion.  And I'm sure the same holds for the other side.  I can only think of one or two really militant positive-affirmation atheists I know, but they're the ones who talk about it the most.

[Dotes]

Wow, this thread is still going? I thought it would have (should have) died by now.

Anyway, here's a small contribution, and a great reason to hate living in the U.S. (as I sometimes do).

A ridiculous number of Americans doubt the fact of evolution.

Maybe not relevant to all of you, but that bothers me a lot more than any misunderstandings about belief systems.

[Surgoshan]

That link actually gives me cause for hope.

In the last 25 years, one thing has changed; more americans are willing to self-identify as atheists.

[jtheory]

That link actually gives me cause for hope.

In the last 25 years, one thing has changed; more americans are willing to self-identify as atheists.

In that poll, or another one elsewhere on the site?  This one didn't mention the word "atheist" at all... though I checked, after your comment; that would be nice.  I see that it's taken a quarter of a century for Americans who say "God had no part in man's development" to go from 9% to 14%, but I think many of those people wouldn't self-identify as "atheists".

Otherwise, yeah, more of the same sad news of widespread ignorance, and no real change happening.
Even in the wording of the poll, they equate the theory of evolution with the "theory" of creationism?  I suppose they don't want to skew the poll data by seeming to favor one over the other in any way, but it's painful to see the word "theory" abused like that.

Wow, this thread is still going? I thought it would have (should have) died by now.

It's more of a discuss thread than anything to do with the comic by now... but yeah, it dies and then gets revived now and then by new folks who want to comment.  It's something a lot of people want to talk about....

Maybe not relevant to all of you, but that bothers me a lot more than any misunderstandings about belief systems.

Ah, but they're deeply intertwined.  What other scientific theory is challenged as much as evolution?  It's one of the theories with the MOST evidence, but it's directly in conflict with certain religious teachings, so the battle is joined.  Plate tectonics is a scientific theory that still has more kinks to be worked out and plenty of areas that are little understood -- but do you see demands to "teach the controversy" in schools?  Quantum physics is bizarre and counter-intuitive; string theory is just loopy -- but do you see people demonstrating against them?

Of course, if the American educational system were better and people weren't so friggin' ignorant, the creationists and so on would be just laughed at... but education is shitty, people never learn the important stuff, and that leaves them easily manipulated.  And then you have Fox News and so on doing their part.

A diversity of belief systems is great if they're all subject to reason, open to discussion, and none of them claim access to any absolute truth.  If only.

Blah.

[Mr. Skawronska]

You'd be sacrificing a rough dozen of sheep, to get your answers and Jahwe will tell you your mistake is believing in Zeus, while Zeus will tell you your mistake lies in not bringing the right sacrifice.

And honestly, if you've got that many gods talking to you about such things, perhaps you need your medication adjusted.

S

[wargrafix]

it might die, but like Jason Voorhees all it will take is one silly person *cough* wil *cough* to start it all over.

[RovingSoul]

You'd be sacrificing a rough dozen of sheep, to get your answers and Jahwe will tell you your mistake is believing in Zeus, while Zeus will tell you your mistake lies in not bringing the right sacrifice.

And honestly, if you've got that many gods talking to you about such things, perhaps you need your medication adjusted.

S

1. I've never had any Gods talk to me.
2. I probably wouldn't listen if they did.
3. I'm not on medication.

[JonSnow]

You'd be sacrificing a rough dozen of sheep, to get your answers and Jahwe will tell you your mistake is believing in Zeus, while Zeus will tell you your mistake lies in not bringing the right sacrifice.

And honestly, if you've got that many gods talking to you about such things, perhaps you need your medication adjusted.

S

1. I've never had any Gods talk to me.
2. I probably wouldn't listen if they did.
3. I'm not on medication.

Actually hearing a voice in your head is more common then we would think, most people who hear this voice think it's their own thoughts but sometimes it really is a something else then your thoughts, last I read in a medical journal it was 6% of all humans have this form of Schizofrenia, and it only becomes a problem for less then a quarter of these people.

[lolwut]

Actually hearing a voice in your head is more common then we would think, most people who hear this voice think it's their own thoughts but sometimes it really is a something else then your thoughts, last I read in a medical journal it was 6% of all humans have this form of Schizofrenia, and it only becomes a problem for less then a quarter of these people.

what

[jtheory]

I think he means that it's not just your normal stream of conscious thoughts that you will recognize as your own "voice".

Unless he means something like this.
(Yes, that odd voice in your head that no one else can hear MIGHT be actively beamed there by the FBI...).

[lolwut]

I think he means that it's not just your normal stream of conscious thoughts that you will recognize as your own "voice".

oh okay i can diggit

Unless he means something like this.
(Yes, that odd voice in your head that no one else can hear MIGHT be actively beamed there by the FBI...).

holy shit, do wantdowantdowantdowant

also fuck the ontological argument, if nobody's addressed this (or the rest) already. it's just a huge non sequiter. fuck the first cause argument, it's also a huge non sequiter. fuck personal experience, it's just the chemicals in your brain. fuck the small but non-zero chance that everything i've ever experienced isn't real: while it's impossible to prove incorrect due to the nature of the thing, it's also completely irrelevant to everything but semantics.

in conclusion, inasmuch as i can possibly know something, i am absolutely certain that there is no god. i am also absolutely certain that the sun will rise tomorrow. there's also a small but non-zero chance that both certainties are completely fucking wrong. that doesn't mean that i'm not absolutely certain, it just means that i intellectually acknowledge that i could be wrong. should new arguments arise, and/or should new evidence appear, i would happily look at said items and perhaps revise my position.

anyway, to make the thread potentially on topic again, dora's logic in the page that led to the op is kinda shitty. dora's basically telling penelope that she should try and change herself drastically (assuming that the anti-mystical thing is completely fundamental to her, this will either be explored in the future or not) to try and make the relationship with wil work, and that just doesn't sit right with me. does anyone else see this, or am i overreacting?

[snowdove]

I think that very few people are actually atheist.  Most people tend towards agnosticism, which is less absolute.  I feel like atheism DOES imply a very strong belief that there is NO God, NOTHING spiritual.

[Surgoshan]

I think that very few people are actually atheist.  Most people tend towards agnosticism, which is less absolute.  I feel like atheism DOES imply a very strong belief that there is NO God, NOTHING spiritual.

... imply?

[JReynolds]

.... I feel like atheism DOES imply a very strong belief that there is NO God, NOTHING spiritual.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating:
1) Atheists do not believe in a divine being or beings
2) Believers in a divine being or beings are atheists in all forms of belief other than their own.

[Mr. Skawronska]

1. I've never had any Gods talk to me.
2. I probably wouldn't listen if they did.
3. I'm not on medication.

1.  Good to know.
2.  Free will, eh?  Refreshing!
3.  I am strangely comfortable with that.

Please feel free to carry on or not carry on at your whim.

"Any documented occasion when some yahoo claims God has spoken to them, they're speaking to me. Or they're talking to themselves. "
-- The Metatron, Dogma, 1999

S

[lolwut]

I think that very few people are actually atheist.  Most people tend towards agnosticism, which is less absolute.  I feel like atheism DOES imply a very strong belief that there is NO God, NOTHING spiritual.

to borrow from dawkins, i'm agnostic about god to the same extent that i'm agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden.

but atheism doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't a dualist, just that you don't believe in a god.

[KeepACoolin]

Why's Jeph raggin' so hard on crazy atheist Penelope? As an atheist myself it kinda bothers me, especially since the whole "fundamentalist atheist" thing is a big farce. Atheism is about skepticism, not absolutism. I understand that they're just characters and dialogue, but it all comes from somewhere, and I don't like the way some of her views are being treated in the comic.

I know I shouldn't complain and just be happy that Jeph makes such a great comic, but I can't help but be bothered by the latest few Penelope strips. I'm not making a big deal about it though, I just want to see what a few other people think. Are you bothered by it? Or does it seems like a fair portrayal of atheists that you met? Or am I just a crazy person who gets offended by nothing?

Discuss.

A.) I'm fairly sure that Jeph is also an atheist.
B.) The "fundamentalist atheist" thing may be exaggerated, but it is sometimes true (people I know).
C.) I'm a conservative Protestant, and I'm pretty sure that this comic is out to get me a little bit more than it's out to get you, but I still read and enjoy it.

[Zephyrus]

Well excuse me but as Jews, Muslims and Christians all use the old testament, it's safe to assume that Allah, Jahwe and the Christian God are one and the same God. Don't tell the extremist believers of any of those religions but it is true. Even though a lot of Jews, muslims and christians dont want to accept it they all worship the same God, they just give him a different name. So believing in all 3 of those would mean you believe in 1 God after-all. Ofcourse if you believe in all the Gods, you also believe in Zeus, aphrodite, Hera,... (the greek gods) Jupiter, Venus, ... (the roman gods, aka the greek gods with other names), Ra, Isis, Seth, ... (the egyptian gods). Ganesh, Brahma, Vishnu (hindu gods), Thor, Balder, Loki, Odin, Frey,... (the norse gods) and all the african tribal religions, and somewhere you also believe in a man, you believe in Buddha. So do you believe in all these? Or are just somebody who doesnt really know what (or wants) to believe, but doesnt want to be labeled an atheïst?

Yeah, Jews Muslims and Christians don't all use the old testament. Their religious texts are actually very different which makes their religions different so I wouldn't necessarily say that they all worship the same god since what you worship is predicated by what you believe. The use of the old testament in each of the religions varies to which parts they accept and their importance in relation to the other religious texts they use as I'm sure you know.

Actually hearing a voice in your head is more common then we would think, most people who hear this voice think it's their own thoughts but sometimes it really is a something else then your thoughts, last I read in a medical journal it was 6% of all humans have this form of Schizofrenia, and it only becomes a problem for less then a quarter of these people.

Only 1-2% of people have schizophrenia. Most estimates puts it just over 1% and by just I mean no higher than 1.4%. Give me your sources for what you say, I have never heard the rates being said to be that high. Ever.

[KeepACoolin]

Many Muslims have a problem with Christians claiming that they worship the same God, as they consider the doctrine of the Trinity to deny the unity of God, which is a central concept of Islam.  They say that it either means Christians worship three gods or that they mean that God is in some way divided.

[Surgoshan]

The wikipedia page on schizophrenia states that schizophrenia only afflicts 0.4-0.6% of the population.  Their sources for that are articles specifically regarding the prevalence of schizophrenia, the first in the medical journal of the Public Library of Science, the second from the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry.  Eachis a review of the literature to glean what others have gleaned and report on the consensus view (making it a secondary work).  The first found the prevalence of schizophrenia to be 4 per mille, the second found that the amount varied greatly depending on the study from 3.3 per mille to 5.5 per mille up to 11.1 per mille.

Per mille is a lot like per cent, except it means "per 1000" instead of "per 100".

[Zephyrus]

Only 1-2% of people have schizophrenia. Most estimates puts it just over 1% and by just I mean no higher than 1.4%. Give me your sources for what you say, I have never heard the rates being said to be that high. Ever.

It is pretty funny that you don't provide sources either.

Uh sure. I got that little bit of knowledge from my abnormal psyc book but since I don't feel like digging through several boxes to find it lets use a website. According to NIMH the prevalence of schizophrenia is 1.1%.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schizophrenia/index.shtml

I also don't provide sources when I tell people that staring into the sun can cause blindness.

[Surgoshan]

STARING INTO THE SUN DOESN'T CAUSE BLINDNESS
SIR ISAAC NEWTON DID IT AND HE WAS FINE

After several days...

... in a dark room...

... with a damp cloth over his eyes.

[Shaztastic]

People should indeed start evolving moral senses again, because due to multiple reasons (I'm not goin to point them out or explain them here as it is another discussion) people are generally becoming assholes, and this in all group of society no matter what age, sex or colour you are. People no longer have old folks have their seat on the bus. The old folks hit you with their purses for waiting in line and accidentally being ahead of them. The 10y old girls want to dress up like Britney Spears and hope to have had sex by the time they're 12 and the 10y old boys are never learning what's good or bad anymore. This decay in morals, this every man for himself kind of trend well it's a very sad thing.

The bible holds a certain set of morals, by far not a bad one if you're living in a society. eg: love your neighbour, put others ahead of yourself and care for them like you would want to be take care off,...  No matter how you interpret the bible those morals will always become obvious. and those morals are what make the bible an important book

This is more to do with the decline in close knit communities then religion. people are too busy with work their own lifes. parents get home at 6-8 o'clock in the evening get dinner ready and that's about all they're fit to do. I think you'll find that a strong healthy adult influence and boundries and discipline works more effectively then the bible on it own. for example if you live in a close knit community you're more likely to know x since you were a kid or went to school with y and are less likely to be rude to them hurt them etc.
and also television has a part to play with that they seem to think good role models don't make good television

i hate how it's assumed that religious people have the high ground on morals. I hate how it's assumed that if you believe in an all seeing guy in the sky that it'll make you behave. It's more important to hold high standards of yourself and not rely on anyone else if you're proud of how you've lived and know you haven't hurt anyone else and you've done your best that's all you can ask.

i can see how a believe in god might be good for children who aren't mature enough to make moral decisions. i.e. if you steal that god will be mad it helps them grow a conscience. but i believe good parenting can take care of that too

[lolwut]

i can see how a believe in god might be good for children who aren't mature enough to make moral decisions. i.e. if you steal that god will be mad it helps them grow a conscience

i don't feel that restraining from vice X because you're being watched is "good" morally but okay

[JReynolds]

This thread has drifted a LONG way from strip 1295. However, I saw something that brings this thread right back to its roots: From Penn and Teller's show Bullshit, a quote:

Penn Jillette: Sure, we're smug, self-righteous, pompous and self-important assholes, but damn it, we're right!

[lolwut]

This thread has drifted a LONG way from strip 1295. However, I saw something that brings this thread right back to its roots: From Penn and Teller's show Bullshit, a quote:

Penn Jillette: Sure, we're smug, self-righteous, pompous and self-important assholes, but damn it, we're right!

if you're right i think it is okay to be a douchebag about it as long as you're not also a dick

[jtheory]

This thread has drifted a LONG way from strip 1295. However, I saw something that brings this thread right back to its roots: From Penn and Teller's show Bullshit, a quote:

Penn Jillette: Sure, we're smug, self-righteous, pompous and self-important assholes, but damn it, we're right!

if you're right i think it is okay to be a douchebag about it as long as you're not also a dick

Wait, when is douchebaggery ever a good thing?  Are you using the standard definition?

I guess I'd say your attitude all depends on how you want to influence the people you interact with.  If they just say "ah: dick" and don't even bother to think about what you're saying, you aren't making the world any smarter -- you're just annoying it (and maybe making it not want to be associated with you and your ilk).

Of course, knowing how to actually get people to rearrange their worldview isn't so simple.  I can't say I really know; I just have a long list of things NOT to do.

[Mr. Doctor]

Or am I just a crazy person who gets offended by nothing?

No offense man... But I aim for that one. It was kind of a mild way to critice Penelope if you ask me. Nothing too harsh.
In my humble opinion... Fanatics that bother you knocking on the door and atheists that love to throw shit at people who believe in god are just in the same level. Penelope wasn't that extremist though. But I fail to see any reasons to why she get pissed on Will's thoughts about God.

I'm an agnostic. I discuss with Atheists in the same level when I discuss with religious people. Because we, humans... didn't have, don't have and never will have enough technologic and winsdom to declare if God exist or not. We just THINK there's a God or not. We don't know.

[danman]

I will throw in my analysis of this since i can relate to this question , and i think i understand very much the reactions of the characters - Jeph was not forcing a personal opinion there IMHO, but actually letting the characters behave as they really would.

The problem is that both Penny, and Dora are unreligious, or so it seems, but they come from different base.
Dora seems to have been raised without too much fuss about religion ,so for her (and people like her) God does not exist in the same way Ded Moroz, Baba Jaga, or unicorns do not exist. Therefore it is no big deal for her, she can go along with people of other opinions better, and cannot understand the fuss raised about it.
Penny on the other hand (like myself only with some differences) came from a religious background, was indoctrinated about this from an early age, and rejected such teachings because of her own intellectual effort (ie. is an apostate). Therefore, she tries to enlighten everyone else, since she has a feeling that all of religion is horrible nonsense (that is why she switched). Also , she probably knows the logical arguments against it, so that makes it doubly compelling.

I had similar experiences myself, with others who were atheists from birth (in my country they are not so rare as we were a socialist republic in the past) could not understand how it is so important for me that god does not exist , since to them the idea of somebody actually believing in such stuff was incomprehensible. I on the other hand feel compelled to discuss with anyone who asserts a different opinion.

[benji]

I don't see how anyone can doubt the existence of God in the face of the miraculous resurrection of this thread.

[MrMonk]

Penny on the other hand (like myself only with some differences) came from a religious background, was indoctrinated about this from an early age, and rejected such teachings because of her own intellectual effort (ie. is an apostate). Therefore, she tries to enlighten everyone else, since she has a feeling that all of religion is horrible nonsense (that is why she switched). Also , she probably knows the logical arguments against it, so that makes it doubly compelling.

Or her atheism could be the result of an emotional reaction to having religion pushed on her. 

[chronoplasm]

I'm an agnostic. I discuss with Atheists in the same level when I discuss with religious people. Because we, humans... didn't have, don't have and never will have enough technologic and winsdom to declare if God exist or not. We just THINK there's a God or not. We don't know.

True, but we do have enough technology and wisdom to figure out which possibility is more or less likely based on the evidence we have available to us.

For example, a study published in the American Heart Journal shows that intercessory prayers don't seem to have any helpful effect.  
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/amhj/abstract.00000406-200604000-00041.htm;jsessionid=KcTWHbQ1BpjGTXLhw8Vn8FLq1bXQCzyLGNcb2F83pJyZZZp2ZjM2!-1466262180!181195629!8091!-1
This study, and many others like it, seems to make the possibility of benevolent, personal gods that answer prayers less likely.

Then of course there's evolution, which has a lot more evidence going for it than creationsim. There is always room for doubt, mind you, but we should be aware that the scales of evidence tip starkly in favor of natural selection.

[danman]

I do not know, but you really do not seem to get such reactions with children - they do not realise such pushing and are likely to believe anything their parents tell them (a biological trait of learning). Then , when that stops being an effect, (old enough age) it forms a part of  the person's beliefs, so simple emotional reaction would not make one lose the belief entirely - at most something with the outer 'demonstrations' of it.
Statistics say most people with religious bringing who become atheists, become atheists in around 14-16 y/o.
Also most people i know that became atheists (i was an sharp discussionist on internet forums about atheism ) had about the same general history - some day they realised that god does not exist.

[danman]

Actually you are a bit off - we will truly never have enough technology and science to prove nonexistence of god - you can at most debunk his supposed manifestations. To disprove any idea (ex. god) pure logic is both necessary and sufficient.
It is enough to say that a) the contents of most religions esp. their teachings about their gods are self contradictory and flawed
b) for other ideas (pantheism) Ockham's razor applies - adding an entity which has no manifestation in this world is futile.

[Is it cold in here?]

Penny on the other hand (like myself only with some differences) came from a religious background, was indoctrinated about this from an early age, and rejected such teachings because of her own intellectual effort (ie. is an apostate). Therefore, she tries to enlighten everyone else, since she has a feeling that all of religion is horrible nonsense (that is why she switched).

But Pen-Pen usually doesn't go around trying to convert people to atheism. Dora had to draw her out before she discussed religion, and she didn't try to persuade Dora, she just vented instead. With Wil she expressed incredulity but didn't try to change his mind.

Pennelope in general seems to keep her opinions to herself unless she's provoked, which admittedly happens easily.

[danman]

Fair point, although it seems hat up to now, there was no one to persuade. (all the other characters seem unreligious to me)