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[Is it cold in here?]

The "sexpresso" movement".

Competitors with fully clothed personnel say they are losing business.

At least it's not Plan Omega.

(Is this the right subforum? It didn't seem serious enough for Discuss, not quite comic-related enough for General, but I'll accept correction graciously.)

(url fixed)

[KvP]

Your link is improperly formatted.

[BrittanyMarie]

Just delete an extra http and you're golden. Sex sells though; I mean I don't think I'd like to get my coffee from a lady just wearing pasties and a bikini, but it's legal. I mean, it's just like Hooters. I won't go there because I think it's pretty disgusting.

[mooface]

at first i was like "oh man that is kind of fucked up and bothersome to me"

but then when i read the part about how the girls get more than $100 in tips everyday the first thing that jumped to my mind was "fuck yeah i would take my clothes off to sell coffee for that money!"

i think this probably says bad things about me as a person ;(

[jhocking]

How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?

[tania]

i don't like it, but nobody's making those girls work there so i guess what they do for money is their own business. like brittany said it isn't any different from a place like hooters. all i can really do is not support it.

[Dimmukane]

How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?

Joe is saying this because he is willing to make an offer.

[mooface]

How much would someone need to pay you for you to have sex with them?

there is a difference between a stripper and a prostitute

[tania]

is there really that big a difference? both are occupations women get forced into. both are occupations that women also choose to get into because they can pay a lot of money. both are occupations that sell because lots of men like sex.

[Inlander]

What? Surely though there's a huge difference between being ogled and actually having to have sex with someone?

[Dazed]

And one of them requires little to no physical, let alone sexual, contact. Particularly if it's not actually stripping, and just making coffee whilst scantily clad.

This is a fairly major difference.

EDIT: Yeah, it would seem I was beaten to this point.

[BrittanyMarie]

The article makes it sound like the majority of the places are just girls wearing bikinis. I am way more down with that, which is something these girls probably normally wear a lot in the summer, than with the pasties.

[jhocking]

Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.

[RedLion]

Anyone seen Idiocracy?

Buttfuckers!

[jhocking]

No I was thinking more directly:
http://coolspotters.com/movies/idiocracy/and/brands/starbucks-coffee/media/24458#medium-24458

[tania]

i i agree there's a difference, i just don't think it's as black and white as "doing A is okay, but doing B is going WAY too far". sex sells and it's all just a matter of how far you're willing to go if you choose to take advantage of that. some women who work as prostitutes make a lot of money and are happy with their jobs. other women couldn't work even as strippers because they feel really dirty and horrible just being ogled. it's pretty subjective.
i don't really like either but again, i can't stop people from doing what they want to do so i don't support the stuff i don't like instead.

[RedLion]

No I was thinking more directly:
http://coolspotters.com/movies/idiocracy/and/brands/starbucks-coffee/media/24458#medium-24458

Forgot about that part.

I have to be honest, I don't see the huge deal here. It doesn't seem like this women are being "forced" into it. It also doesn't seem to carry any danger, unlike prostitution. And if a woman has a strong self-image and self-confidence, it doesn't necessarily have to be something demeaning.

[Alex C]

Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.

Thanks to that movie, my brother and I now use the term "tarded" on occasion, provided that we're around people who would get the reference or else to subtly mock those who really do call things retarded.

[Inlander]

i agree there's a difference, i just don't think it's as black and white as "doing A is okay, but doing B is going WAY too far". sex sells and it's all just a matter of how far you're willing to go if you choose to take advantage of that. some women who work as prostitutes make a lot of money and are happy with their jobs. other women couldn't work even as strippers because they feel really dirty and horrible just being ogled. it's pretty subjective.
i don't really like either but again, i can't stop people from doing what they want to do so i don't support the stuff i don't like instead.

Oh no, I'm not saying that this is okay and prostitution isn't, but it is, I think, preferable to prostitution - but it's relative. The 'flu is preferable to cancer.

Although unfortunately, it seems like the morality concerns expressed by people in the article are mainly third-party concerns along the lines of "Somebody just minding their own business shouldn't have to see scantily-clad women", rather than concerns about the welfare of the women in question, whether this is exploitative, whether it debases women, etc.

[jhocking]

You guys are taking my question more seriously than you probably should.

[tania]

yeah i am mainly talking about the actual, physical act of stripping for someone versus the actual, physical act of having sex with someone. i would feel extremely uncomfortable and humiliated doing either for money so for me it isn't such a simple matter of "well, of course i'd strip but i wouldn't have sex with someone, that's totally different". they both feel like sexual acts to me, one's just taking it further. however, i'm also talking about it outside of the social context where prostitution is (probably? i don't know a lot about strippers) the more dangerous profession because of the way a lot of women get into it and the risks associated with that, so it's probably a moot argument anyway.

[ViolentDove]

I heard about this a few years ago, something similar was started up in Chile. I think it might have even orginated there? Anyhow, here's a mini-doco by the ABC's Foreign Correspondant show that presents some interesting views on the Chilean cafes. Apparently some of the girls use the work to find customers for prostitution. Also of interest is that a version of the cafe staffed by men was started up aimed at female customers, but it went out of business because not many women were into the idea of being served coffee by scantily clad men.

[jhocking]

Y'know that brings up an interesting idea. I bet a coffee shop staffed by scantily clad young men would be pretty popular in my neighborhood.

[ViolentDove]

They said despite the lack of women customers, it was pretty popular with gay men. I guess not popular enough to stay in business, however.

Edit: I'm curious if any of the female forumites would go into a male-staffed one? I myself probably wouldn't go into a female-staffed one... not that I really dislike or like the premise, it's just not something I think I would enjoy. 

[Dimmukane]

I don't like coffee enough to consider going there.  The only times I go to any coffee shop anywhere are if I have a gift card from someone who didn't know me at all (Mom, I've been living with you for the past 21 years of my life and have had maybe 3 cups of coffee in that span of time, only one of which was here) or if I am really hungry/thirsty and there is nowhere else to eat (this only happened once, we missed the bus back from a football game and walked around Baltimore trying to find UB, my mom worked there and had a car, after 3 hours we needed to eat some dinner and my options were a Donna's and Taco Bell)

[clockworkjames]

Nobody else thinking coffee is HOT and so is foamy milk so all that steam and little clothing for protection...

Little bit dangerous :/

I have had hot water on my skin and hot watter on an article of clothing, the pain and burn is worse on skin.

[Spluff]

That was in the article, if only a short reference.

I see no problems with it - if you're comfortable doing it, then go right ahead. Pasties seems a little bit too far, but just plain old bikinis I have absolutely no problem with.

[clockworkjames]

Yeah the "Nipplz & third degree burns" bit but aprons would still be safer tbh, I like looking at pretty girls and I like coffee.

I would still go to the place with the better coffee though.

[Cernunnos]

They can do whatever, but I sure wouldn't get a beverage there. I'd just feel awkward.

[Josefbugman]

If I ever happen upon one of these places I am tempted to buy all the girls jumpers, they might need them.

[Emaline]

Man, I can't wait until women everywhere are only valued if they are scantily clad! Oh man, that'll be the day. I mean, when these women decided that they needed to step out of the kitchen and start getting jobs, did they really think we'd ever vaule them for more than their bodies? Ha! I love when women go college, its just so gosh darn cute. I mean, what do they think they are going to do with those degrees? Get jobs like men? Hahahahaha  gosh, those women. They should spend their money on better things, like breast implants. I am pretty sure bigger boobs will get them way more money than any useless degree.


Also, I am bitter, and find this disgusting. I mean, what next? Hiring black people to pick cotton?

[negative creep]

Dang, for the equivalent of $100 in tips I'd do that every time i work, not only on special occasions and for fun as I do it now.

[Alex C]

Man, this thread.


Okay, first off, going in and handing out jumpers or any of that kind of thing is at least as demeaning as going in and ogling the women. Second, women are going to be valued for their bodies. Men are going to be valued for their bodies. There's not really any getting around that, since our bodies are a big part of who we are; hell, they're the only thing tangible about us. Also, what's wrong with hiring a black person to pick cotton? What if they need a job? Are we going to let historical precedent rule the rest of our lives? I mean, really, the problem with this is that women are marginalized due to their sexual identity. Now, we can try and pretend that men won't respond to women sexually, or we can work on stopping people from marginalizing women based on their gender. I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to work on the latter problem since there's actually a chance we can fix that one eventually.

[Skibas_clavicle]

Man, if the coffee doesn't wake you up in the morning, the tits surely will.

[Alex C]

Man, I need some coffee. I don't know why, but it's like I've been cranky as hell since around 7. Fuck.

[Emaline]

Stuff

I think you missed my point.

Wouldn't it be nice if people were going to these coffee shops, not because women had their tits hanging out, but because the coffee was good? Wouldn't it be fucking fantastic it we started treating each other as humans, and not like slabs of meat?


I too am grouchy, and have been craving caffeine. But I think I will get it from my hairy, slightly chubby, male friend's family's coffee shop.

[Alex C]

No, I get it. A lot of them aren't going for the coffee. It happens. And humans ARE in part, slabs of meat. It's going to affect our judgement.

[Emaline]

Humans are slabs of meat, who think, and have feelings, and are more than just a warm hole.

The point I am getting at is, isn't it nice to treat people as PEOPLE and not as sex toys?

[Alex C]

See, and I hold there's a difference between treating someone as a sex toy and buying coffee from a woman in a bikini. Here's the thing: I primarily value free will. As far as I can tell, the big problem with the way women were marginalized in the past is that like you say, they were not allowed to do their own thing and were simply treated as second class citizens valued only for their bodies. Now, women have a measure of choice. I'm not going to go criticizing what they do with that choice unless it harms me directly. I personally have misgivings about this whole thing, but I'm not going to go around being bitter about it or assuming that this is the end of civilization as we know it.

[Josefbugman]

I was only handing out the jumpers to be nice, I thought they may get chilly on the walk home. I am not forcing them to wear them, I just thought it would be nice to show them that not everyone cares how they look.

Yes, I do mean this sincerly.

It's just that, well from my point of view as someone who find sex a bit... personal I wouldn't really want to be served by someone wearing just their pants, no matter how shapely or well filled those pants are. Also it would be odd if I say got a job at a coffee place and ended up with a single item of clothing as "uniform" it would just be rather strange and off putting.

[ViolentDove]

Um, people doing these kind of jobs don't wear the bikinis/g-strings on their way home. Just so you know.

I have friends who are lingerie waitresses and dancers (the pole kind). If I told them I thought they were being exploited, marginalised, or anything else, they'd laugh in my face. Not that I'd tell them anything of the type, mind you. 

[Inlander]

So, here's an interesting dilemma. I find the idea of these kinds of places really tacky and seedy and I'd never set foot in one - but on the other hand, where I live there are easily a dozen cafes within a ten-minute walk from my house, and in deciding which one to patronise on any given day I have in the past based my decision upon which cafe has the prettier waitresses, simply because it adds to my enjoyment of the experience. So, what's the difference? Why do I feel comfortable in one situation but appalled by the other? Is it because the semi-nudity of the "sexpresso" places makes it all so overt? Is it more acceptable for me to go where the pretty faces are, than it would be if I went chasing the boobs? I'm interested to hear what people think because I can't quite get my head around it and I'm wondering if it's a double-standard.

[ViolentDove]

I don't think it's a double-standard. The degree of nudity people are comfortable with is subjective, and varies from person to person, and culture to culture. People in Australia definitely find nudity more confronting than a pretty face, or even other things, like violence. 

Would it make a difference to you if you knew that the cafe with the pretty waitresses only hired pretty waitresses because of their looks?

Would you work in a cafe that catered to customers that were beard-fetishists?

[Alex C]

Would it make a difference to you if you knew that the cafe with the pretty waitresses only hired pretty waitresses because of their looks?

To me, that's really the only big, worrying issue with this kind of thing. The rest of it just hits me as "Oh noez, not boobies!"

[vegkitkat]

I feel like my biggest concern may be the possibility of burns. That's a lot of exposed skin ; somebody's going to spill sometime soon. And then can they fire you because you've horribly disfigured yourself (i'm assuming you are making a lot of coffee)?

[RedLion]

People need to calm the hell down and stop reading so much into this. There really isn't some kind of deep meaning to this. The only meaning is what we've always known: sex sells. As long as the women aren't being exploited--and they're not--it's not a big deal. I would probably not go to this kind of place, but only because it's a strange, incongruous combination.

[tania]

as much as that article disgusts and frustrates me, and as hard as it is for me to write the rest of this post, i do agree with alex that the women working there still have free will and the right to choose to do whatever they want for money. telling a woman to work in this kind of occupation is just as offensive as telling her she can't. in both scenarios, you're still undermining their intelligence and their ability to make their own decisions as to what they want to do with their lives.

i don't, however, like the fact that these coffee shops are putting other coffee shops out of business or forcing them to convert to the same business model. it doesn't leave a lot of alternatives for those people who don't want to support them.

[jhocking]

What I found interesting to reflect on his how my feelings about appropriate attire are so context sensitive. Like, when I went to the article I barely paid any attention to the picture next to it because it looks so normal.  Or rather, it looks just like hundreds of snack shops I've seen on the beach, and then it occurred to me that the picture isn't a snack shop on the beach.  I mean, it's pretty routine for girls wearing bikini tops to be staffing a beach snack shop, and so in that context you wouldn't give it a second thought (actually, probably not even a first thought.)  But a coffee-shop located somewhere inland, in the midst of a bitter winter (I'm assuming the article is talking about right now,) well that's pretty odd.

This sort of compartmentalizing of what's appropriate in different situations is perfectly normal and sensible, but it is still interesting to reflect on when you are made consciously aware of it.

[Mr. Skawronska]

Kinda reminds me of the theme of Idiocracy.

S

[Professor Snuggles]

This is awesome