Topic: New trend in Northwest espresso: embarrassingly dressed baristas (Read 23261 times)

Gilead · « **Reply #100 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 16:10 »

Also with the girls I know it would suddenly turn in to a great date spot.

Hat · « **Reply #101 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 20:30 »

Is the coffee actually any good?

Also if you think there isn't a difference between this and prostitution I suggest you go meet some prostitutes! Think of it as an exciting field trip.

BrittanyMarie · « **Reply #102 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 21:00 »

Who said there isn't a difference between prostitution and serving coffee in bikinis? I don't think I read anything like that in this thread. I mean, there have been talks regarding prostitution and stripping, but not saying anything like what you were saying. The closest is what Tania is saying on page one so I'm a little lost.

jhocking · « **Reply #103 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 21:03 »

I deleted my post where I was like "This is exactly the same thing as prostitution. I do not see any difference at all. Also, I'm pretty sure that's where Eliot Spitzer gets his coffee."

tania · « **Reply #104 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 21:04 »

man i never said there wasn't a difference, i just pointed out a few similarities and said i didn't think there was so massive a difference that they were two totally different things existing in two totally different realms. and that was prostitutes and strippers, not prostitutes and girls working in bikini coffee shops. also, talking rhetorically about just the act of stripping for money versus the act of having sex with someone for money, outside the social context where prostitution is obviously a thousand times worse because of stds and rape and pimps and abuse and all that stuff. so it was kind of a pointless tangent anyway.

tania · « **Reply #105 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 21:06 »

thanks for posting!

BrittanyMarie · « **Reply #106 on:** 12 Jan 2009, 21:14 »

Tania, to clarify I wasn't saying that you did. I am saying no one did. I don't think. I've been kind of paranoid over misreading things lately for some reason; I'm genuinely like "wait. what?"

RedLion · « **Reply #107 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 01:03 »

Again, why do people even care?

tania · « **Reply #108 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 01:21 »

sorry, this post will also seem like a bit of a tangent but i promise there's a point -

there are many different subtypes of feminism but two that are well known are liberal feminism and radical feminism. there is much more to both of them than the simple bits and pieces i am about to provide here but liberal feminism essentially focuses on eliminating institutionalized sexism through legal and political reform, operating under the assumption that women will seek and assert equality with men once they have the freedom to do so, whereas radical feminism says society and gender roles are all constructed in such a way that male supremacy and male interests are the norm and society basically needs to be reconstructed completely otherwise women are going to continue to be exploited because the patriarchal society they live in has socialized them to not even realize they are being exploited. so liberal feminism, essentially, says women have free will whereas radical feminism does not so much, due to the way it claims women are socialized.

so you can take that, and you can apply that to this situation and get really angry about it in all kinds of different ways depending on what perspective you take. do the girls working there have free will and the right to exercise it, or are they really being exploited and not realizing it because of the sexism that is just so inherent in every part of our society that we don't notice it anymore and think it's just the way things are? i am still not sure where i stand on this issue, i think i am maybe leaning more towards the liberal side but that maybe provides some explanation as to why some people may be upset by this even though the girls seem to be choosing to work there on their own, and also how you can still be a feminist and be okay with it but also be a feminist and not be okay with it. there are also many other subtypes besides those two.

Jace · « **Reply #109 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 01:34 »

I have one problem with many (but not all) of the feminists (or women preaching feminist ideals) I have met:
They want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them.

Now I know this isn't true of all women who believe in those ideals, I've met quite a few really cool feminist people. I've just had a problem with what I imagine is a small group of them, even though it feels more like a vast majority.

That said, I probably wouldn't go to a coffee shop with scantily clad girls. First of all, I think they'd feel like I was constantly hitting on them even if I was just trying to make regular conversation, probably because if they are attractive they would get hit on a lot. Hell, I get the feeling the girls that work in the coffee shop at the hotel I'm at feel that way too. (I really do not want to do anything other than be friends with them. I swear.) Also, I do not drink coffee, tea, or any of the stuff you can buy in a coffee shop.

supersheep · « **Reply #110 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 02:34 »

So some people are selfish and want to be treated better than others? I mean, that is all totally true, but I am really tired of people using that as a stick to beat feminists down with. There are plenty of men who want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them also, you know!

On the whole liberal versus radical feminism thing, I don't think that radical feminism denies free will. I think that the same argument about socially constructed domination can also be applied to the acceptance of, say, the exploitation inherent in wage-slavery or whatever. Men are socialised by the patriarchal system also, albeit in different ways. I think that if you are aware of the potential for exploitation and yet work in a job like this, whatever exploitative nature is inherently sexist about it is sort of cancelled out? I'm not sure about that. Basically I believe that we are all socialised into particular roles by patriarchal society but that does not negate our ability to freely choose activities.

Jace · « **Reply #111 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 02:50 »

I was going to type out a long post but then I realized it'd be stupid to do so.

I am summing up what I have said with this: I think the "feminists" I met were stupid because most of them were teenage girls that had a terrible sense of entitlement because they had rich families.
I don't mean to beat feminists down, but if there is going to be equality, there should be true equality. Not "well, its okay to do one thing, unless you do it to a woman, then it's more wrong"

J-cob9000 · « **Reply #112 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 03:35 »

Didn't read the whole thread.
Just wanted to say, what happens if you spill it on yourself?

Lunchbox · « **Reply #113 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 03:54 »

You shoulda read the whole thread.

Inlander · « **Reply #114 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 04:00 »

Because now we're not going to tell you.

Jace · « **Reply #115 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 04:38 »

Quote from: Midnight Umbreon on 13 Jan 2009, 03:35

Didn't read the whole thread.
Just wanted to say, what happens if you spill it on yourself?

Man, we're only on the third page. That's just over 100 posts. A lot of them aren't even that long. You can even skim some of them. Make the effort.

Oli · « **Reply #116 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 05:12 »

Quote from: PantsFTW on 13 Jan 2009, 01:34

I have one problem with many (but not all) of the feminists (or women preaching feminist ideals) I have met:
They want to be treated equally until it doesn't benefit them.

That is an annoying thing but it is not really a feminist thing. It is kind of like if I were to tell you that I am all for gay liberation provided that I don't see gay people in public because in that instance I would not really be all for gay liberation.

tania · « **Reply #117 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 07:07 »

yeah those are the people who do not really understand what feminism is. i still meet people who call themselves feminists because they hate men on account of something their ex-boyfriend did. and i guess i am a feminist, but it's the 21st century so lots of people in developed countries probably are in some way. however i do not even use the word anymore when i talk to people cos i feel like it will automatically label me as an uninformed man hater, so i just say something along the lines of "oh hay here is what i think about that" and hope that my point gets across better that way, without the word "feminist" in there making it seem angrier than it actually is. if sometime tells me they are a feminist, my first reaction is to cringe a little bit too even though everyone knows i am gaga about this stuff, because so often they end up being painfully uninformed about what it actually is. feminism is a bit of a dirty word now.

clockworkjames · « **Reply #118 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 07:34 »

I am sick and tired of making my family dinner every day of the week.

I find it sexist and demeaning.

Amidoinitrite?

redglasscurls · « **Reply #119 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 07:36 »

Spluff · « **Reply #120 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 07:37 »

nope

(edit- beat me to it. But I'm going to leave my post here anyway for emphasis)

De_El · « **Reply #121 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 09:47 »

I think at this point, the term "feminist" not only has become a bit of a dirty word but also by virtue of being a thing and a movement for a while now it has had time to be beaten to death and connected to so many different things that its meaning is distorted and almost needs to be redefined and clarified every time you use it in a sentence.. I think it'd be most useful if it were used to refer to someone who actually did things to further the fabled cause i.e. feminist social activists, and not just anyone who thinks "Yeah, women are pretty okay, they should be treated properly."

Orbert · « **Reply #122 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 10:58 »

So basically there are coffee shops with barristas in bikinis, but guys who are normally nice to females anyway don't want to go there because they don't want the barristas in bikinis to think they're hitting on them, or because they don't want to be seen there and have people think that that they're the type of guy who'd go to a coffee shop with barristas in bikinis? And it's embarrassing for the customer?

This is more fucked up than I thought. We've reached the point where servers in bikinis are okay, but guys are too afraid to go there because they don't want to be thought a pervert. Fuck that. I'd still go, because if the girls can't tell the difference between someone being polite and someone hitting on them, that's their problem not mine. And I don't care if someone sees me in there and thinks I'm the type of guy who'd go there, because I am there, so apparently I am that type of guy. Again, all other things being equal, I'll take the shop with the bikini girls over the boring one playing playing bad music. I'll be nice to them and try not to stare, I'll drink my coffee, then I'll leave. Life is too goddamned short to worry so much about what other people think.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #123 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 11:06 »

when, if ever, do you think banks are going pick up on this trend?

there are some serious babes at my bank.

Cam · « **Reply #124 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 11:13 »

I have to agree that feminist has gained a lot of distorted and, mostly ,negative connotations. I tend to refer to things in terms of Women's Rights for that very reason.

tania · « **Reply #125 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 11:18 »

sometimes i substitute "egalitarianism" but then people get just as angry at me and call me pretentious for using a word with eight syllables. now i mostly just tell people i have some opinions.

benji · « **Reply #126 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 11:36 »

Quote from: Orbert on 13 Jan 2009, 10:58

So basically there are coffee shops with barristas in bikinis, but guys who are normally nice to females anyway don't want to go there because they don't want the barristas in bikinis to think they're hitting on them, or because they don't want to be seen there and have people think that that they're the type of guy who'd go to a coffee shop with barristas in bikinis? And it's embarrassing for the customer?

This is more fucked up than I thought. We've reached the point where servers in bikinis are okay, but guys are too afraid to go there because they don't want to be thought a pervert. Fuck that. I'd still go, because if the girls can't tell the difference between someone being polite and someone hitting on them, that's their problem not mine. And I don't care if someone sees me in there and thinks I'm the type of guy who'd go there, because I am there, so apparently I am that type of guy. Again, all other things being equal, I'll take the shop with the bikini girls over the boring one playing playing bad music. I'll be nice to them and try not to stare, I'll drink my coffee, then I'll leave. Life is too goddamned short to worry so much about what other people think.

The social implications of having my coffee served to me by women in their underwear is not something I enjoy. It smacks of female subservience and implies that I'm primarily motivated to interact with women because of sex. Perhaps I think too well of myself, but I tend to think that I enjoy interacting with women because they're human beings and I can have a personal connection with them. The underwear, in this case, reduces the quality of the interaction, or has the potential to. I'm already in a dominant role as a customer. Adding to this that I'm fully dressed, while they're mostly naked, and mostly naked ostensibly for my pleasure creates an atmosphere that I dislike because it places emphasis on the disparity between my power in the interaction and her's.

It also implies that I'm there for something besides coffee. It objectifies us, as customers, as much as it does the women involved. We become nothing more than our sex drives and basic instincts, ready to throw our money at the sexiest girl. I don't like that implication. I prefer to be treated as a grownup customer, capable of enjoying my coffee without sex being brought up. Put another way, when I buy coffee, I am doing it because I like coffee. Sex, or the implied promise of possible sex, is not required to enhance my enjoyment of the experience of buying coffee and I resent the implication that it is. I like coffee. I like quiet little coffee bars with friendly baristas who make the coffee well and leave a newspaper out for me to read. These are elements of atmosphere that I like and that are a part of going out for coffee. Adding sex to that atmosphere isn't something I have a use for. It doesn't add anything I want added. We are bombarded with sexualized images of women in much of our daily lives, and there are times when I enjoy such images. Coffee simply is not one of those times for me.

Dazed · « **Reply #127 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 12:11 »

Feminism is great, and it's done some very good things for society as a whole. Unfortunately, it's become very extreme and perverted on the fringes, and, like so many other social movements, gets judged by its extremes.

You know, stuff like this.

Alex C · « **Reply #128 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 12:13 »

Yeah, I've felt like that too Benji. I believe I brought it up once in the blog thread; one night while watching Futurama on comedy central I saw a TON of Girls Gone Wild ads get played. Seriously, I think it was like two or three per commercial break. I found it a bit worrying that my demographic is assumed to enjoy getting a bunch of young women drunk and encourage them to flash cameras, particularly since the GGW company was once found guilty of failing to properly verify the age of the girls in the videos. When you put together negligence plus the fact that alcohol is clearly involved in their videos, it definitely raises some questions about consent. It makes me feel sort of guilty by association.

jhocking · « **Reply #129 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 15:41 »

Quote from: tania on 13 Jan 2009, 11:18

now i mostly just tell people i have some opinions.

But this would piss people off because after you say that they would wait a beat and then be like "AAAAAND those opinions are?"

you can't win

Spike · « **Reply #130 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 15:56 »

Quote from: Dazed on 13 Jan 2009, 12:11

Feminism is great, and it's done some very good things for society as a whole. Unfortunately, it's become very extreme and perverted on the fringes, and, like so many other social movements, gets judged by its extremes.

You know, stuff like this.

This may be a little off topic but after reading that, and some of the responses to peoples comments, that person inspires nothing but rage.

Nodaisho · « **Reply #131 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 15:59 »

Quote from: tania on 13 Jan 2009, 11:18

sometimes i substitute "egalitarianism" but then people get just as angry at me and call me pretentious for using a word with eight syllables.

Do it anyway, as often as you can. See if you can make their head go scanners. Why the hell should you dumb down your language simply because some people are afraid of words they can't spell without moving their lips?

Orbert, I wouldn't go because it would make me uncomfortable, and because it seems like they would be trying to bribe me with pretty girls, something I don't appreciate. If you are going to bribe me, bribe me with good coffee, low prices, or comfortable chairs (obviously the last one won't happen in a drive-through joint).

jhocking · « **Reply #132 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 16:06 »

This morning while walking to the train I saw an empty McCafe cup lying on the ground next to the sidewalk. It was depressing on several levels.

MrBlu · « **Reply #133 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 16:15 »

Quote from: jhocking on 11 Jan 2009, 15:40

Anyone seen Idiocracy? This is the next step toward that future.

Man that movie was hilariously depressing, if possible.

Quote

Still, the competition is cutthroat

I never thought I'd hear that concerning the Barista industry... Oh those twisted baristas.

Hat · « **Reply #134 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 16:20 »

Quote from: benji on 13 Jan 2009, 11:36

The social implications of having my coffee served to me by women in their underwear is not something I enjoy. It smacks of female subservience and implies that I'm primarily motivated to interact with women because of sex.

That's your hangup, not the hangup of the women working there or the people who buy coffee there. I've been to bars where shirtless muscle men make cocktails, and I don't particularly like that idea anymore than I like having a set of tits thrust at me early in the morning when I am just trying to get a cup of coffee, but these women choose to work there and make a fuckload of money exploiting the male sex drive. In fact I think this is less demeaning than the average strip club because its unlikely most of these girls are strung out on meth and pills just to come into work in the morning.

jhocking · « **Reply #135 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 16:51 »

Quote from: Spike on 13 Jan 2009, 15:56

This may be a little off topic but after reading that, and some of the responses to peoples comments, that person inspires nothing but rage.

Her best line from the comments:

Quote

I don't hate your sex, I hate your gender. If you don't understand what I mean by that then go and do your feminist homework before attempting to take up space on my blog.

Someone please explain to me what this means. I'm very curious!

Spluff · « **Reply #136 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 17:01 »

That is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure what she is referring to is that technically your 'sex' is only related to whether you produce sperm or ova, and the specific body parts that do that, whereas 'gender' includes all the rest of the connotations that go with being a male or female.

To actually differentiate between the two (in a non scientific environment) is probably one of the most anal things I have ever seen.

benji · « **Reply #137 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 17:39 »

Quote from: Hat on 13 Jan 2009, 16:20

That's your hangup, not the hangup of the women working there or the people who buy coffee there. I've been to bars where shirtless muscle men make cocktails, and I don't particularly like that idea anymore than I like having a set of tits thrust at me early in the morning when I am just trying to get a cup of coffee, but these women choose to work there and make a fuckload of money exploiting the male sex drive. In fact I think this is less demeaning than the average strip club because its unlikely most of these girls are strung out on meth and pills just to come into work in the morning.

I never said it was damaging, I just said I don't think I would shop there. I don't have a problem with the women who work at this coffee shop, nor do I have a problem with it's patrons. I also don't have a problem with Hooters, or with strip clubs for that matter. I just don't particularly want to go there, and I reject the Orbert's assertion that me stating a preference for not going to the sexy coffee shop is somehow irrational. I'm making a fully rational choice. I know what I want with my coffee, and half naked women aren't on that list. These women can choose to work there, and Orbert can choose to buy coffee there. I will choose to buy mine elsewhere.

tania · « **Reply #138 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 17:48 »

sex refers to biological characteristics while gender refers to the socialization a person undergoes depending on their sex. gender roles, pretty much.
an example is a person transitioning from male to female. their (original) sex is male but their gender is female because they identify as one.

tania · « **Reply #139 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 17:56 »

also brett i am sorry but arguing that something is okay because there are worse things is kind of a bullshit argument imo. drug-addicted strippers might be worse than scantily-clad baristas but that's irrelevant because we're not talking about drug-addicted strippers, we're talking about scantily-clad baristas. for every thing you can always find a worse thing and if that's how everyone made their points nothing would ever be accomplished.

jhocking · « **Reply #140 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 17:58 »

Sweet! As I suspected, her making that distinction was completely irrelevant; either way, she was saying "I hate you."

RedLion · « **Reply #141 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 19:42 »

Still, no one has clearly explained why this is "bad" or somehow repugnant.

jhocking · « **Reply #142 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 20:15 »

Quote from: Ptommydski on 13 Jan 2009, 20:09

Does anyone think that? I don't think anyone has said that, so I guess nobody here thinks that.

Oh come on, by just the third post of this thread brittanymarie described the concept as disgusting.

Although I can see why you'd want to brush off red lion's question. Given that the question blatantly ignores the previous three pages of people explaining their various points of view, it certainly seems like just straight-up trolling.

tania · « **Reply #143 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 21:41 »

benji gave an excellent answer to that question and has been awesome at this thread in general so if you don't want to go through 3.5 pages of text, read his posts at least.

BrittanyMarie · « **Reply #144 on:** 13 Jan 2009, 22:08 »

Apparently I'm not very good at explaining my own views. When I said "I find it disgusting" it is in the way that like when you go into a restaurant and the vinyl seats are all ripped up so that yellow foam stuff is sticking out and it's kind of disgusting. Though I did indeed kind of change my mind, the picture I had in my mind was like the Coffee on Legs video that I think ViolentDove posted, not just girls in bikinis.

In fact, if you read the other posts I'd made I'm actually not that sure apparently where I stand on the issue. I was being serious when I said I'd find it less creepy if it was just called burlesque. Nothing would change, just my own mental image of what's going on.

Hat · « **Reply #145 on:** 14 Jan 2009, 01:11 »

Quote from: tania on 13 Jan 2009, 17:56

also brett i am sorry but arguing that something is okay because there are worse things is kind of a bullshit argument imo. drug-addicted strippers might be worse than scantily-clad baristas but that's irrelevant because we're not talking about drug-addicted strippers, we're talking about scantily-clad baristas. for every thing you can always find a worse thing and if that's how everyone made their points nothing would ever be accomplished.

Thats not my argument at all! That is a completely false representation of my argument. I am saying these women made a choice and are exploiting the men who go there to buy coffee, offering a similar example where women can be doing something akin to this but they have been coerced into it by pretty shady means. There are ways women can get their kit off that are exploitative and those that aren't! I suppose you could argue that the money driven capitalist phallocentric society we live in coerces these women to serve coffee in bikinis, but that basically means we are all whores and is pretty meritless in the context of this conversation

redglasscurls · « **Reply #146 on:** 14 Jan 2009, 03:48 »

I've decided I might actually go to one of these places once, but only to laugh my ass off if one of the girls burned herself. It's her choice to work there, but I have every right to think she's a bit skanky and not respect her choice of employment whatsoever.

Spluff · « **Reply #147 on:** 14 Jan 2009, 04:04 »

I go to mines to laugh at the miners when the roof collapses.

redglasscurls · « **Reply #148 on:** 14 Jan 2009, 05:16 »

I honestly do not care why she took the job. Saying 'ohhh she might be really down on her luck and helping her little baby cousin through school and studying to be a pro bono lawyer!" is like excusing all morbidly obese people because they might have a gland problem. Yeah it's possible, but not likely.
I know I'm going to come off bitchy here, but seriously if you take a job where you fling your tits around burning hot steam and liquids, I don't think you're too intelligent.

october1983 · « **Reply #149 on:** 14 Jan 2009, 05:21 »

Even so, there's a difference between not feeling much sympathy for someone when they get injured when they knew the risks, and the kind of schadenfreude you seem to be (I presume hypothetically) anticipating.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: New trend in Northwest espresso: embarrassingly dressed baristas (Read 23261 times)

Gilead