Topic: Crooked smile, one eye raised (Read 42186 times)

jimbunny · « **Reply #50 on:** 09 Apr 2009, 16:54 »

Can I just head off all the Miyazaki worship with the fact that Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind was without a doubt the peak of his career?

Alex C · « **Reply #51 on:** 09 Apr 2009, 17:16 »

No, you can't, mostly because it wasn't. Miyazaki didn't peak in the '80s so much as he plateaued; trying to figure out whether My Neighbor Totoro or Kiki's Delivery Service is the better children's movie is little more than an exercise in inconclusive hairsplitting. Ghibli hit a high level and camped out there for quite a while and I don't really expect anything but excellence out of them.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #52 on:** 09 Apr 2009, 17:18 »

seconded!

jimbunny · « **Reply #53 on:** 09 Apr 2009, 17:36 »

While My Neighbor Totoro is probably his best children's movie (haven't seen KDS in too long to remember), Nausicaa manages, in my opinion, to just be a great movie, period. A rich story (more of a plot than any of his other movies), his fullest exploration of "nature vs. civilization" as a theme, a cast of well-developed characters. Most of Miyazaki's movies specialize in nostalgic reverie and imaginative settings - which are great, and what he manages to achieve is excellent - but Nausicaa builds on top of that to get at something with a much broader and deeper impact.

StaedlerMars · « **Reply #54 on:** 09 Apr 2009, 18:53 »

Miyazaki,

KharBevNor · « **Reply #55 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 01:12 »

Quote from: Siibillam-Law on 09 Apr 2009, 10:40

Their 2D films were just getting horrendous, save for Hercules and Basil of Baker Street (Great Mouse Detective?)

I'm not sure if you've just got your chronology wrong or something, but between producing Basil the Great Mouse Detective in 1986 and Hercules in 1997, Disneys output of 2D animation includes, among others, Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King, neither of which, with any amount of wrangling or taking of contrary positions, could honestly be described as 'horrendous'.

Why Disney films have got so bad I'm not sure. I personally think it relates to the softening of the villains. Ironically, Disney films worked much better when the villains were just satanically evil for no apparent reason, and hardly at all funny. If you're going to create a fairy tale world full of talking animals you can't just have the villain doing slapstick routines with his henchmen. There's no dramatic tension. You can't set up a clear hero/villain dynamic (possessed by most Disney films) and then have both of them be idiots. I don't know whether Disney think that having real villains would traumatise children (I don't remember shitting myself when I was six and saw Maleficent or Chernobog. It is only a fucking cartoon after all) or whether they're cleverly injecting believability and moral greyness into the stories. The actual way to do that would of course not to have any real villains (see Princess Mononoke). Even the better Disney villains of recent years, such as Scar, were buffoons. It's hard to even condemn a lot of the early Disney films as being particularly sugar-coated (and they almost all were when compared to the originals) when you look at what they're coming up with these days.

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #56 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 05:29 »

Oh bollocks. Somehow The Little Mermaid/Beauty and the Beast (I hesitate putting Lion King in there, merely out of personal opinion) completely skipped my mind. Forgot the Great Mouse Detective was done so damn early

Oh well, idiocy proved

Alex C · « **Reply #57 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 10:23 »

Quote from: jimbunny on 09 Apr 2009, 17:36

While My Neighbor Totoro is probably his best children's movie (haven't seen KDS in too long to remember), Nausicaa manages, in my opinion, to just be a great movie, period. A rich story (more of a plot than any of his other movies), his fullest exploration of "nature vs. civilization" as a theme, a cast of well-developed characters. Most of Miyazaki's movies specialize in nostalgic reverie and imaginative settings - which are great, and what he manages to achieve is excellent - but Nausicaa builds on top of that to get at something with a much broader and deeper impact.

Yeah, see, I guess I've never seen how environmental themes are supposed to have a broader and deeper impact than stories that focus more on relationships and a sense of wonder; I guess all those Captain Planet episodes didn't take, because I just don't give a shit. It's also one of the reasons I found Wall-E kind of boring; out of the whole movie, there were two semi-memorable characters; the rest were just fat identical caricatures used to hammer home the movie's platform. I can appreciate subtext and all, it just rarely moves me.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #58 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 12:26 »

Wait, what do you mean Nausicaa has more of a plot than any of his other movies?

I hate to be a one pipe organ here but PRINCESSMONONOKE

Alex C · « **Reply #59 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 13:22 »

Quote from: KharBevNor on 10 Apr 2009, 01:12

Ironically, Disney films worked much better when the villains were just satanically evil for no apparent reason, and hardly at all funny.

Yeah, it's entirely possible for a character to be entertaining but to rob the movie of overall power. For example, of all the Disney films, Pinnochio probably freaked my me and my siblings out the most when we were little due to the simple fact that Monstro the whale is never presented as anything but a raw force of nature that does its level best to destroy the characters at the end of the film. Hell, even Stromboli comes across mostly as creepy and manipulative rather than just outright buffoonish; maybe he's an unbelievable caricature, but he's so obviously unpleasant that he kinda made my skin crawl. Maybe Stromboli wasn't some kind of villainous mastermind, but he wasn't funny and he didn't make me laugh. The end result is a movie universe that feels like bad things could happen in it even if everything does end up turning out OK at the end. I can't say I ever felt the same way about a character like Hades.

Emaline · « **Reply #60 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 17:16 »

Quote from: Josefbugman on 09 Apr 2009, 06:53

Why the head desk dude?

Personally, I think that the Iron Giant is a great movie, certainly a damn sight better than a good few of disneys early "classics" (I'm looking at you 101 dalmations)

What. Your opinion is so wrong. 101 Dalmations will forever be one of my favorite movies ever. There are only two children's movies I will ever own for myself. One is 101 Dalmations, the other is Milo and Otis.

jimbunny · « **Reply #61 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 23:12 »

Quote from: Alex C on 10 Apr 2009, 10:23

Yeah, see, I guess I've never seen how environmental themes are supposed to have a broader and deeper impact than stories that focus more on relationships and a sense of wonder; I guess all those Captain Planet episodes didn't take, because I just don't give a shit. It's also one of the reasons I found Wall-E kind of boring; out of the whole movie, there were two semi-memorable characters; the rest were just fat identical caricatures used to hammer home the movie's platform. I can appreciate subtext and all, it just rarely moves me.

All I'm saying is that it's a theme that consistently shows up in his movies, and I think that one movie uses it more effectively than the others. Actually, that's not all I'm saying; there was more there too, don'tcha know.

Princess Mononoke was probably more plot-driven than, say, Spirited Away - but I'd say that Nausicaa was more complex. PM moved faster, while Nausicaa filled itself out better.

öde · « **Reply #62 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 04:25 »

Has anyone seen Fantasia?

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #63 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 04:29 »

Hell yeah
That had the devil in it and everything.

Now that's a badass villain

JD · « **Reply #64 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 07:20 »

Disney did right with Fantasia. The sequel is excellent too.

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #65 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 09:11 »

Considering Disney's catalogue of sequels, I was very surprised and happy at 2000

Lines · « **Reply #66 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 09:17 »

Here is a list of Disney movies. Striked out are the ones I didn't see. Bold are the ones I really liked.

1. Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs
2. Pinocchio
3. Fantasia
4. Dumbo
5. Bambi
6. Saludos Amigos
7. The Three Caballeros
8. Make Mine Music
9. Fun And Fancy Free
10. Melody Time
11. The Adventures Of Ichabod And Mr. Toad
12. Cinderella
13. Alice In Wonderland
14. Peter Pan
15. Lady And The Tramp
16. Sleeping Beauty
17. 101 Dalmatians
18. The Sword In The Stone
19. The Jungle Book
20. The Aristocats
21. Robin Hood
22. The Many Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh
23. The Rescuers
24. The Fox And The Hound
~~25. The Black Cauldron~~
26. The Great Mouse Detective
27. Oliver & Company
28. The Little Mermaid
29. The Rescuers Down Under
30. Beauty And The Beast
31. Aladdin
32. The Lion King
33. Pocahontas
34. The Hunchback Of Notre Dame
35. Hercules
36. Mulan
37. Tarzan
38. Fantasia/2000
39. The Emperor's New Groove
40. Atlantis: The Lost Empire
41. Lilo And Stitch
42. Treasure Planet
43. Brother Bear
~~44. Home On The Range~~

That is my opinion of Disney movies. The ones that are not bold - I either don't like them or don't really remember them enough. I can easily say my favorites are Sword in the Stone, Lion King, Aladdin, Little Mermaid, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, and Fantasia. I mean, I really like a lot of Disney movies. But some are really bad.

But when it comes to Pixar vs. Dreamworks, Dreamworks doesn't hold a candle to Pixar when it comes to animation. And most of my favorites of those have come from Dreamworks.

Don Bluth made some damn good films and so did Miyazaki. I know people have mentioned them, but they are worth mentioning again.

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #67 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 09:25 »

Damn, did you just write that whole list out? In order?

Lines · « **Reply #68 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 09:40 »

I copied and pasted in order!

Avec · « **Reply #69 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 12:47 »

Hercules and Lilo & Stitch aren't bolded, I think you're missing out on a lot.

Joseph · « **Reply #70 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 12:50 »

Oh man Lilo and Stitch was bad.

And that tv show they made after. Even worse.

My little sister was really into it for a while.

Alex C · « **Reply #71 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 13:13 »

Lilo and Stitch has some really annoying parts and a few "comedic" characters it could have done without, but the struggling family stuff is surprisingly heavy for a Disney movie and overall I'd recommend it over a lot of the slop that gets crapped out for kids.

Avec · « **Reply #72 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 13:24 »

Give me a break, I was nine when I saw it.

Blue Kitty · « **Reply #73 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 13:28 »

Quote from: Dark Flame on 13 Apr 2009, 12:50

Oh man Lilo and Stitch was bad.

And that tv show they made after. Even worse.

My little sister was really into it for a while.

I loved Lilo and Stitch, so much so I even bought it on DVD. But yeah, the show was freaking terrible. Japan got a hold of it and made this.

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #74 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 14:15 »

Those 60 seconds were great. Better than the film

JD · « **Reply #75 on:** 13 Apr 2009, 14:57 »

They messed Lilo up though.

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #76 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 04:22 »

I can't believe people here don't like Hercules especially since this is a music-laden forum.

David_Dovey · « **Reply #77 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 05:05 »

I'm not seeing a connection. You realise we don't like all music ever made, right?

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #78 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 05:31 »

Yeah, sure, okay, but this is good music. Now, I realise that that is a very personal conviction but I figured there'd be more like-minded people here ...

Chesire Cat · « **Reply #79 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 05:58 »

Theres also the fact that many people seemingly denounced these movies because they were musicals.

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #80 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 08:43 »

Hades didn't have a song. What was that about

MadassAlex · « **Reply #81 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 08:58 »

Goddamn I remember loving the fuck out of Hercules.

It's kind of depressing having that as an introduction to an awesome myth and then finding out that Herc was a bit of a dick, really.

Blue Kitty · « **Reply #82 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 10:00 »

I remember loving Hercules, but hating the fuck out of the song Go the Distance. I would hear that fucking song every where I went.

SirJuggles · « **Reply #83 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 12:45 »

Man I thought Hercules was great, even if they decided to re-write mythology. Whatever it's Disney and they did a surprisingly good job of it.

My only question is this: Is the fact that that movie is never re-aired or talked about or dealt with commercially in any way really due to the "pagan"/mature nature of the subject matter? I thought I heard a rumor of that long ago, and it sadly makes sense, but I've never had confirmation.

Avec · « **Reply #84 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 12:59 »

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=VUN52OKY

Surgoshan · « **Reply #85 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 15:58 »

Quote from: MadassAlex on 14 Apr 2009, 08:58

Goddamn I remember loving the fuck out of Hercules.

It's kind of depressing having that as an introduction to an awesome myth and then finding out that Herc was a bit of a dick, really.

I hate to disappoint, but that's kind of the rule. Bronze Age male == massive, unlovable asshole.

Alex C · « **Reply #86 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 18:54 »

It all makes a lot more sense when you remember that at the time these guys probably didn't think of it as spreading epic tales so much as passing along the bronze-age equivalent of Bill Brasky stories.

look out! Ninjas! · « **Reply #87 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 07:07 »

Quote from: Siibillam-Law on 14 Apr 2009, 08:43

Hades didn't have a song. What was that about

I recently learned that in the original Aladdin script Jafar had more songs than he did in the final cut.
What's up with that?

Siibillam-Law · « **Reply #88 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 08:35 »

More songs for villains and less "I'll make my dream come true" songs

Joseph · « **Reply #89 on:** 15 Apr 2009, 14:19 »

Quote from: look out! Ninjas! on 15 Apr 2009, 07:07

Quote from: Siibillam-Law on 14 Apr 2009, 08:43
Hades didn't have a song. What was that about
I recently learned that in the original Aladdin script Jafar had more songs than he did in the final cut.
What's up with that?

KharBevNor · « **Reply #90 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 00:05 »

Quote from: BeoPuppy on 14 Apr 2009, 05:31

Yeah, sure, okay, but this is good music. Now, I realise that that is a very personal conviction but I figured there'd be more like-minded people here ...

I don't even remember there BEING musical numbers in Hercules, so that shows you just how much of an impact it had on me.

BeoPuppy · « **Reply #91 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 05:21 »

Were you taken with the love stroy to that extend?

KharBevNor · « **Reply #92 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 22:25 »

All I remember from Hercules is Hades, the titans and the Orpheus on steroids type bit at the end. Probably been around ten years since I saw it, because it is a pretty flat and unmagical film when you get right down to it.

Ceiling Cat · « **Reply #93 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 23:34 »

As a student of Ancient Greek and Latin I have been made to watch Hercules one time too many.....

WriterofAllWrongs · « **Reply #94 on:** 20 Apr 2009, 11:02 »

Danny DeVito played a satyr, and James Woods played The God Of The Underworld. Yes Please.

Also, I hate to nitpick a post from far back in the thread, but...

Quote from: Alex C on 08 Apr 2009, 15:17

TBH, it's pretty damn rare that I enjoy a musical.

Like, I can't think of one that I like, come to think of it.

Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Alex C · « **Reply #95 on:** 20 Apr 2009, 12:57 »

I don't like Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Trauco · « **Reply #96 on:** 29 May 2009, 13:48 »

Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle and Princes Mononoke have CGI sequences in them, in fact... Princess Mononoke opens with a 3D monster :-p (check it under production at the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_mononoke).

The fact that you can't differentiate between hand painted and cgi, doesn't make it less cgi. (and by cgi i don't even mean digital painting, i mean that the maggots that come out of the monster are 3D, but rendered with a really nice cel shader)

Alex C · « **Reply #97 on:** 29 May 2009, 14:26 »

It doesn't really change the fact that for the most part they are 2d productions headed up by men whose practical experience lay in 2d animation. Really though, the format and tools used to produce art are really beside the point.

Babpacih · « **Reply #98 on:** 30 May 2009, 22:56 »

'nuff said....

knives · « **Reply #99 on:** 30 May 2009, 23:10 »

Down Under is great, probably not in my top five, but maybe ten.
Surprised no one has brought up mickey mousing. I think that alone proves Eisenstein right.
Fantasia also rules if just for the Night on Bald Mountain portion, even if the the Pastoral Symphony is a personal favorite.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: Crooked smile, one eye raised (Read 42186 times)