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[Professor Snuggles]

Just saw this a second time. Guys this movie is so good.

If you don't like this but you liked Star Trek, you're lying to yourself.
If you don't like this but you liked District 9, you're pretentious.
If you don't like this but you liked Star Wars, you're just an idiot.

This movie is so fucking good, the only complaint I have is I have to get all my viewing in while it's in theaters, because I can't imagine watching it not in 3D.

[Professor Snuggles]

Pretty cool that all of those movies have the same number of characters, huh.

[Professor Snuggles]

If you didn't like this, or any of those other three, why the fuck did you see it anyway?

[Chesire Cat]

Im developing a slight man-crush on Kieffer

[Alex C]

I have kind of a love-hate relationship with that Star Trek movie, since most of the film wasn't all that great and I don't think it holds up very well on repeated viewings. On the other hand, that 10 minute opening scene was such balls out cliched melodramatic space opera that I loved every fucking second of it and could have left the theater completely satisfied without even seeing the rest of the movie. I'm thinking of watching it again right now.

[Professor Snuggles]

So you love melodramatic cliche space opera and you didn't like this, which is epic melodramatic cliche fantastical sci-fi?

Fuck you.

[knives]

Just saw this a second time. Guys this movie is so good.

If you don't like this but you liked Star Trek, you're lying to yourself.
If you don't like this but you liked District 9, you're pretentious.
If you don't like this but you liked Star Wars, you're just an idiot.

This movie is so fucking good, the only complaint I have is I have to get all my viewing in while it's in theaters, because I can't imagine watching it not in 3D.

Haven't seen the new Star Trek so can't comment. You seem to be misusing pretentious there. I'm not sure where your use of idiot for Star Wars is for, but if your complaint to the fans is Star Wars usage of as many cliches, ect. than there is a world of difference. With Star Wars the big difference is that the intent of Star Wars, at least for the original trilogy, was to examine old space operas and serials. Crank up the cliches and give the ultimate byronic experience. In a way it is an examination on old school basic storytelling. Avatar on the other hand has heftier goals in trying to comment on the treatment of Native Americans and the present war in Iraq, amongst other things. Because of that goal the use of cliches must be very careful or else you'll just end up being an other Crash, the Haggis one not the great Cronenberg one. sadly Avatar does use those cliches in a way that while not as bad as Crash still causes a reductive moral landscape.
Personally I feel that Avatar is enjoyable and adequate, but I fully understand the stance against it considering what I outlined. Your comparisons, at least for the two I've seen just don't work.

[Alex C]

So you love melodramatic cliche space opera and you didn't like this, which is epic melodramatic cliche fantastical sci-fi?

Fuck you.

Here's the difference: That scene lasted about 11 minutes. It left me actively amazed that I enjoyed a scene like that because those kind of scenes almost never work for me, but then the rest of the movie left me sort of luke warm. Avatar didn't have any given moment half so entertaining in it AND it took several hours. Gah.

[scarred]

I liked all three of the movies he mentions, and I didn't like Avatar. I really tried, you know. But when a movie as visually stunning as Avatar causes me to nearly fall asleep halfway through, it's less endearing and more "I'm so glad someone else paid for me right now."

[Professor Snuggles]

The three of you are completely joyless fucks.

[Alex C]

I kind of wonder what people will think of it as visual standards change. For example, I remember people being all "Holy shit!" over Jurassic Park back in '93, but now nobody really gives a crap, since it was really just a full-on crowd pleasing spectacle movie. I could see Avatar going down the same path.

And Kieffer, you'll never believe this, but I actually am capable of enjoying myself without declaring every movie I see to be the greatest thing ever.

[Professor Snuggles]

Just saw this a second time. Guys this movie is so good.

If you don't like this but you liked Star Trek, you're lying to yourself.
If you don't like this but you liked District 9, you're pretentious.
If you don't like this but you liked Star Wars, you're just an idiot.

This movie is so fucking good, the only complaint I have is I have to get all my viewing in while it's in theaters, because I can't imagine watching it not in 3D.

Haven't seen the new Star Trek so can't comment. You seem to be misusing pretentious there. I'm not sure where your use of idiot for Star Wars is for, but if your complaint to the fans is Star Wars usage of as many cliches, ect. than there is a world of difference. With Star Wars the big difference is that the intent of Star Wars, at least for the original trilogy, was to examine old space operas and serials. Crank up the cliches and give the ultimate byronic experience. In a way it is an examination on old school basic storytelling. Avatar on the other hand has heftier goals in trying to comment on the treatment of Native Americans and the present war in Iraq, amongst other things. Because of that goal the use of cliches must be very careful or else you'll just end up being an other Crash, the Haggis one not the great Cronenberg one. sadly Avatar does use those cliches in a way that while not as bad as Crash still causes a reductive moral landscape.
Personally I feel that Avatar is enjoyable and adequate, but I fully understand the stance against it considering what I outlined. Your comparisons, at least for the two I've seen just don't work.

You are the most joyless of the fucks.

First, fuck you for telling me my use of pretentious is incorrect. I am saying that you are putting on a fucking pretense if you liked the lower budget "smarter" movie about mistreating aliens as an allegory for mistreating natives and not fucking avatar.

But you are an ESPECIALLY joyless fuck if you think the point of Star Wars, or the point of Avatar, was to make you think. The point was to make awesome, simple, compelling stories with straight forward cut and dry characterization that makes you go oooh and ahhh and maybe holy shit once or twice. You're comparing Avatar to fucking crash? Are you fucking retarded? There is no similarity, at all, between these two movies. I get that you think you are a student of film all "look at me, I can namecheck fucking cronenberg for no reason in my post" but fuck you you joyless fuck. These movies are supposed to be fun and engaging.

[Professor Snuggles]

I liked all three of the movies he mentions, and I didn't like Avatar. I really tried, you know. But when a movie as visually stunning as Avatar causes me to nearly fall asleep halfway through, it's less endearing and more "I'm so glad someone else paid for me right now."

You are the second most joyless fuck. This is fucking stupid. I bet you went stoned or some shit, and blame your own sins on the movie, since you can't admit you were tired. There is no fucking possible way you could have come close to falling asleep during that movie. It's got a perfect pacing, if anything it could have been longer so we could have had more time for the troops to rally and shit at the end. The movie is at its best when shit isn't really blowing up that bad. If you didn't love the flying scene there is something wrong with you. Fuck.

[Alex C]

Yeah, I can't buy into the idea that Star Wars was really an examination of anything. Now, I'm sure the filmmakers were aware of precedents and archetypes, but knowing that doesn't mean you're automatically doing anything fancy. I know plenty about the Beatles and Mozart, but at the end of the day, I'm still a fucking hack when it comes to writing music.

[Professor Snuggles]

So you love melodramatic cliche space opera and you didn't like this, which is epic melodramatic cliche fantastical sci-fi?

Fuck you.

Here's the difference: That scene lasted about 11 minutes. It left me actively amazed that I enjoyed a scene like that because those kind of scenes almost never work for me, but then the rest of the movie left me sort of luke warm. Avatar didn't have any given moment half so entertaining in it AND it took several hours. Gah.

This is actually pretty valid, although not liking the new trek doesn't make any damn sense either, unless you're one of those joyless continuity junkie fucks who thinks they fucked up Kirk and made him all swagger no substance.

I kind of wonder what people will think of it as visual standards change. For example, I remember people being all "Holy shit!" over Jurassic Park back in '93, but now nobody really gives a crap, since it was really just a full-on crowd pleasing spectacle movie. I could see Avatar going down the same path.

And Kieffer, you'll never believe this, but I actually am capable of enjoying myself without declaring every movie I see to be the greatest thing ever.

Are you kidding? Jurassic Park is still amazing. We watched it like 3 weeks ago and everyone had a great time, the effects still look amazing, the story is great, the acting is great, the jokes are great. It's a phenomenal spectacle.

Yo Alex we are actually cool though. I just wish you weren't damning this movie with such faint praise. It was way better than meh, and I can dig if you don't think it's the GOAT, but cmon that was some pretty perfect sci-fi/fantasy storytelling.

[Professor Snuggles]

you joyless fucks.

[Alex C]

I'm willing to admit that there's a 90% chance that the problem I have with Avatar comes down to attention span. I was basically raised by video games.

As far as the Jurassic Park thing goes, it depends on what kind of metric you're going with, I guess. Personally, I still really like it. But with that said, as far as the Spielberg films go, it seems to be the one people give the least amount of credit to these days, which is a bit strange when you consider that it made just under a billion dollars and is really only second to E.T. in financial success.

By the way, my cousin actually thinks Jurassic Park 2 was better than the first one. Dude's a moron.

[usmcnavgeek]

Man, there is a lot of joyless fucking going on in here.  That is sad.  Fucking should never be joyless.

I've seen the movie four times (yeah, I'm a fanboy) and after the first viewing what I really wanted the movie to do was SLOW DOWN.  I can't see how you fell asleep during it.  The pacing borders on relentless; in each viewing the 2:40 FLEW by for me.

Anyway I liked it, in case you can't tell.  Plus as an aerospace nerd I liked seeing the spaceship and rotorcraft design, too.  There's a huge sci-fi writeup on the interstellar ship on the Pandorapedia, which is a semi-official wiki of the in-universe stuff.  It made the geek in me very happy.

[Chesire Cat]

Why on earth do people try to compare the plight of the Na'vi to the Native Americans. It seems ignorant and self centered (assuming the people who make this claim are from North America).

What did Europe come and try to exploit Native Americans for? Grasslands? I'd say this is about a hundred thousand times more comparable to either South Africa and Diamonds or maybe, maybe, Mayan gold or something. And go fuck yourselves if you are going to back up your answers by saying Mayans are "Native Americans" because ALL of the new world is "America".  Thats a cheap cop-out and makes you look stupid.

[Alex C]

And go fuck yourselves if you are going to back up your answers by saying Mayans are "Native Americans" because ALL of the new world is "America".  Thats a cheap cop-out and makes you look stupid.

I gotta tell you, given my family background, this hit me as fucking hilarious.

[JD]

You can't really deny that part Cheshire. When the french came to Canada they wanted otter skins because they were all the rage in Europe at the time.

[Chesire Cat]

Well I can and am denying that part. I cant really challenge someone to prove that by comparing the Na'vi to Native Americans they are referring to Aboriginals of South America, because frankly using awkward ambiguous wording still makes you look stupid even if you are 'right'. And Otter skins? Really? You are going to have to do better than that.

And Alex, dont really know what your family background is, but unless your background involves people who have living memory of what happened between 1642 and the ~1800s I struggle to see the relevance. Though Im personally curious about your background, sinceI always imagined you looked like your avatar.

[scarred]

I bet you went stoned or some shit, and blame your own sins on the movie, since you can't admit you were tired. There is no fucking possible way you could have come close to falling asleep during that movie.

None of the above, we actually went to a 7pm showing to avoid the "OH IT WAS JUST TOO LATE YOU WERE TIRED" excuse. And I still started dozing off when he was learning how to fly.

Dunno what went wrong. Maybe it was the retardedly predictable script. Or the fact that sweeping vistas become boring once you've seen it all before. The LotR films came up with something new every time, whereas Avatar seemed like it was done showing me cool things even before (spoiler) the big tree got blowed up. Everything that wasn't on the visual side of this film reeked of laziness, from the Papyrus subtitles or "unobtainium," the 2 dimensional, undeveloped characters or the vaguely fake-looking Na'avi. (Yes I said it. The environments looked great and most of the animals did too, but the humanoids looked like they were straight out of a video game cinematic. Zzzzz.) Sorry. There's just no way I could ever enjoy a product this half-assed.

[Ikrik]

You can't really deny that part Cheshire. When the french came to Canada they wanted otter skins because they were all the rage in Europe at the time.

If by otter you mean beaver then yeah.  But that was after we (and everyone else) came for the fish. And after we had settled down we started using the Natives as slaves because importing them from Africa was way too expensive.

My girlfriend and I have been discussing Avatar for the past couple of weeks now and I used it as an excuse to introduce her to the first two Alien films.  She absolutely loved both films and was even pointing out the similarities to Avatar (Vasquez, the Walkers, the Airplane, Burke)  I am thankful to Avatar in a way because I'm not sure when I would have rewatched a James Cameron film otherwise.

And I cannot even remember the times I was sitting in my chair bored out of my mind during that film.  Pretty much everything that scarred said except about the Na'avi.  Did you see the paint on them? That made my jaw drop.

[Alex C]

Well I can and am denying that part. I cant really challenge someone to prove that by comparing the Na'vi to Native Americans they are referring to Aboriginals of South America, because frankly using awkward ambiguous wording still makes you look stupid even if you are 'right'. And Otter skins? Really? You are going to have to do better than that.

And Alex, dont really know what your family background is, but unless your background involves people who have living memory of what happened between 1642 and the ~1800s I struggle to see the relevance. Though Im personally curious about your background, sinceI always imagined you looked like your avatar.

Nah, that guy is Jared Allen, an NFL player that constantly straddles the line between unintentional comedy and full-on self-parody when he isn't out getting DUIs and voting Republican. He plays for the Vikings though so I can't really decide if I love him or hate him.

Anyway, I'm named for my great grandfather, Alejandro Calderon, and it's taken a lot of work corroborating with people from across the pond, but that side of my family can trace things back to around the 1780s now. Basically, my ancestors were Peninsulares who sided with the royalists early and then changed their tune when it started to look like Spain wasn't going to win the Mexican War for Independence. They ended up losing a lot of wealth over the years due to always being late to figure out who they should be siding with throughout various wars, but they still avoided fraternizing with the natives whenever possible and a few times people went so far as to head back to Spain to find someone to get married to. So, basically, my ancestors moved over here to skim off the top of the mining industry and boss around the natives but it didn't work out so hot. Generations later, we're still some of the whitest Mexicans you'll see this side of Guillermo Del Toro. In a stroke of karmic justice, this also has resulted in some of my relatives being afflicted with fun genetic disorders that are apparently rare outside of Spain.

[JD]

You can't really deny that part Cheshire. When the french came to Canada they wanted otter skins because they were all the rage in Europe at the time.

If by otter you mean beaver then yeah.  But that was after we (and everyone else) came for the fish. And after we had settled down we started using the Natives as slaves because importing them from Africa was way too expensive.

otter and beaver, though perhaps my memory is a bit fuzzy

[Ikrik]

It was all fur but beaver was the main one.  The Hudson Bay Company used a currency with the Natives called a Made Beaver.  So if you brought in a beaver pelt you got 1 MB.  And here's a nice little list of what other furs were worth

 3 martens         2 ordinary otters or 1 if exceptionally fine

        1 fox                 2 deerskins

        1 moose             1 lb castoreum

        1 bear cub         2 wolverines 

        10 pounds Goose Feathers

         8 pair Moose Hooves

So yeah, otters were worth quite a bit.  I have no idea what castoreum is though.

[Chesire Cat]

"Jared named his son Rowdy after his childhood hero Rowdy Roddy Piper." Bwahahaha.

Alejandro Calderon is a totally epic name, like really fun to say out loud. Not epic like Martin Luther, Oliver Cromwell and Mark Antony mind you. I mean those dudes were total badasses who ruled without being a King/Emperor/Pope/Duke/Whatever. Not many Western historical leaders got the First Name, Last Name, no title treatment.

Oh and on this whole "North American Native American" pelt thing. Not really sure if you understood my point, and its too much work to make it more clear. But once again Ill state, its not really analogous to Avatar at all.

[Inlander]

Maybe it's because it's almost one-thirty in the morning, but I'm disappointed this thread isn't called "Othertar".

[Nodaisho]

I'm wondering what people have against the use of "unobtanium", opinion seems to be split between hating it and finding it funny. The way I saw it, it was a nod to people that know the term from the various sci-fi usage and the usage in fiction discussion, as an element with whatever properties you need it to have for the example. It explained everything you needed to know about it, it's incredibly valuable, they don't mention any material properties, so they won't come up in the movie, and for all we know, it isn't even really called unobtanium, it could just be what the '80s vintage coked-up executive IN SPACE called it.

[LTK]

But they didn't even imply that the joke name was used as a joke name. Sure, it's completely believable that the periodic table name of ununseptium was too hard for the non-scientists to remember and called it Unobtanium instead, but that was never shown. They said "Unobtanium" with a straight face, and that is what made it ridiculous.

[Lines]

I don't see this can't be related to any culture taking over land that belongs to an indigenous one. This has pretty much happened on every continent except Antarctica and saying that it can't/shouldn't be compared to just North America is kind of dumb. Brits/Americans wanted land, so when they had to, they took it by force and kill a shit ton of people in the process. This happened with Spain and Mexico, when Britain tried to colonize just about everything, etc etc. So I don't really see why you're hating on the connections to Native Americans, though yes I do understand that there are better connections.

Really if anything this movie just shows that humans are assholes.

[Nodaisho]

They said "Unobtanium" with a straight face, and that is what made it ridiculous.

One person said it, the aforementioned fast-talking coked-up executive, who probably would have to have anything remotely scientific broken down into two-syllable words, and referring to something as unobtainium would be done with a straight face, not a Groucho Marx eyebrow waggle. So it is basically a MY IMMERSION thing for you?

[Chesire Cat]

Because the humans didnt give two shits about the land. They wanted the Unobtainium and would scorch earth to get it.

And on the subject of Unobtainium, its funny strictly because they wink at the camera when they said it, and the word as mentioned many times, conveys all the meaningful properties without having to explain them. In the context of the movie, the only meaningful property is its rare and worth a cajillion mega-dollars.

[KvP]

So you love melodramatic cliche space opera and you didn't like this, which is epic melodramatic cliche fantastical sci-fi?

How are these two any different?

I was going to go see this movie in IMAX 3D but I had a medical emergency that put me away for a week. I'm going to try and go see it tonight.

[knives]

You are the most joyless of the fucks.

First, fuck you for telling me my use of pretentious is incorrect. I am saying that you are putting on a fucking pretense if you liked the lower budget "smarter" movie about mistreating aliens as an allegory for mistreating natives and not fucking avatar.

But you are an ESPECIALLY joyless fuck if you think the point of Star Wars, or the point of Avatar, was to make you think. The point was to make awesome, simple, compelling stories with straight forward cut and dry characterization that makes you go oooh and ahhh and maybe holy shit once or twice. You're comparing Avatar to fucking crash? Are you fucking retarded? There is no similarity, at all, between these two movies. I get that you think you are a student of film all "look at me, I can namecheck fucking cronenberg for no reason in my post" but fuck you you joyless fuck. These movies are supposed to be fun and engaging.

Hey dude, I didn't insult you. I even actually said I enjoyed Avatar, just felt your insults toward other entertainment was out of line. I never said the point to Star wars was to make people think. It's intentionally pure space opera and sure be enjoyed as such. If Cameron's only intention was the same I wouldn't have sympathy with the people that disliked the movie. he does bring in these intentional analogies though, and sure be held to a standard as such. By making the story so cliched I understand that it leads to unfortunate implications and such. Had he left out any attempt at political awareness and gone the route of Star Wars or his own True Lies than that wouldn't be such a contentious point. Again I really did enjoy Avatar put to describe someone who didn't as a 'joyless fuck' is more reductive than Avatar itself.
Also the reason I said you were using pretentious wrong, definitely could have phrased that better, was that maybe some people enjoyed District 9 more because it was shorter and had more elements to them that are entertaining. Some people just don't like epic storytelling, which Avatar is, and prefer smaller intimate tales, which District 9 is. That doesn't make either one better, or someone is pretentious for liking one over the other, I actually preferred Avatar in this debate, but that different people prefer different styles of story telling.
Finally no way am I in fucking film school.

[Professor Snuggles]

I am imagining you having sex, currently. You are sighing occasionally, fulfilling monotonous motions, occasionally looking at your watch.

[Professor Snuggles]

It is a fuck completely without joy.

[knives]

 

[KvP]

Next you'll probably be telling us you don't enjoy the taste of a hearty McDonald's hamburger.

Why don't you go back to France or some shit.

[scarred]

FREEDOM FRIES MOTHERFUCKERS

[Professor Snuggles]

Yeah dude, seriously fuck you.

[knives]

Next you'll probably be telling us you don't enjoy the taste of a hearty McDonald's hamburger.

Why don't you go back to France or some shit.

I will...and take Jerry Lewis too. (The crowd gives an applause like never before)

[Inlander]

What's going on in here?

[JD]

It was all fur but beaver was the main one.  The Hudson Bay Company used a currency with the Natives called a Made Beaver.  So if you brought in a beaver pelt you got 1 MB.  And here's a nice little list of what other furs were worth

 3 martens         2 ordinary otters or 1 if exceptionally fine

        1 fox                 2 deerskins

        1 moose             1 lb castoreum

        1 bear cub         2 wolverines 

        10 pounds Goose Feathers

         8 pair Moose Hooves

So yeah, otters were worth quite a bit.  I have no idea what castoreum is though.

Thanks for proving my point

[Kugai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RBeoPauVb0

[scarred]

[Tom]

See, nothing special!

[Chesire Cat]

My new FB profile pic

[Jimmy the Squid]

Ok so even if it is an appropriation of the John Smith/Pocahontas thingy how is that bad? Clueless is an appropriation of Emma, 10 Things I Hate About You is an appropriation of The Taming of the Shrew. Ain't nothing wrong with re-interpreting an old story with fuck off awesome special effects.