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Author Topic: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)  (Read 91622 times)

JD

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #50 on: 02 Dec 2009, 22:12 »

I read Agatha Christie in middle school.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #51 on: 02 Dec 2009, 22:17 »

Then my mom tried to get me to read Fountainhead.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #52 on: 02 Dec 2009, 22:22 »

Canadian Goes On A Murderous Spree, News At 11
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #53 on: 02 Dec 2009, 23:03 »

A killing spree would be a pretty serious overreaction to reading the Fountainhead. After all, Rand is already dead.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #54 on: 02 Dec 2009, 23:05 »

She died about a week before I was born too; I consider this a small blessing.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #55 on: 02 Dec 2009, 23:45 »

Of course it does, but the article linked says that the book "teaches young girls a lesson", which is different from the subtle influence a single movie or book is likely to have on your views - the word "teaching" makes it sound a) as if Meyer has gone out of her way to labor the point, that this is something she actually wants to get across, rather than simply being the result of her being a terrible writer,

Meyer does very little but labor her points. One of the main stylistic gripes with the book is just how much space she devotes to describing just how amazingly beautiful Edward is, or how wonderful and romantic his and Bella's relationship is, or the whole clunky vampire bite=premarital sex metaphor.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #56 on: 03 Dec 2009, 08:45 »

This is going to make such a great plot twist for my fanfic, thanks Liz.

I didn't mean to.

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #57 on: 03 Dec 2009, 12:04 »

She's placed in the "Young Adult" section of the bookstore and I don't know about you but the last time I was back in those hallowed halls was when I was 12.

If that's not tween than you're a fucking idiot.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #58 on: 03 Dec 2009, 12:15 »

Oh Jeans, I see the point you're trying to make but you're making it miserably. Showing us Disney products aimed at young tweens and then saying that Twilight isn't that great.The target audience for Twilight IS tweens.  10-15 year old girls.  Just because a large number of people read Twilight and are older doesn't mean that the book isn't marketed at them.  God, now I just read some interviews from the makers of the Twilight movie about how they have a huge fanbase of women in their 30's and fourties.  My rage for Twilight grows ever stronger. 

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #59 on: 03 Dec 2009, 12:53 »

Jeans: Young Adult Fiction is generally defined as suitable for ages 9 and above. Twilight is Young Adult Fiction.

I'm not saying that loads of 9-year-olds read Twilight but unless I'm mistaken, the average Twilight reader (who is 10 to 15) is a "young adult." And you keep dodging the fact that most Twilight readers are 10 to 15 year old girls. So I don't know what to tell you, because you live in your own little world full of denial unicorns.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #60 on: 03 Dec 2009, 12:59 »

Have you?
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #61 on: 03 Dec 2009, 13:00 »

And it's a good thing tweens aren't at all interested in sex, or being whisked away to an exciting, sexier world by a magical being, otherwise they'd all be reading/seeing Twilight.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #62 on: 03 Dec 2009, 13:08 »

http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/112008/liv_358123107.shtml

oh look a lot of 12 year olds. Also 18 year olds, and a lot of middle aged women too.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #63 on: 03 Dec 2009, 13:42 »

Augh sorry. I didn't mean to get personal. Finals are starting and I pulled an all-nighter last night, and on top of that Twilight just makes me raeg irrationally. As for the age thing, most of my opinions are based off of experiences with crowds like these:



Which I find mildly disturbing because the object of their undying affection... well, to put it in the words of Rifftrax, "Their relationship is based off of him not killing her. That's healthy."

I guess if the books were written even half-competently I wouldn't have half the beef with them I do now. It's the combined frustration with poor storytelling and distaste of rabid, obsessive fandom that really irks me.
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Eris

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #64 on: 03 Dec 2009, 14:00 »

I would say that the books are aimed towards teen readers, seeing the main characters (other than like, parents), are 16/17/18, with some outliers in the 20s, but they are seen as parents as well. Having characters a similar age, especially for stuff like YA fiction, makes it easier for the readers to relate to. A 15-yar-old girl is (generally) not going to care about a 40-year-old man's story, she is going to want to read about something she can relate to, and at the moment in her life she can relate to, uh, school life and crushes?

The majority of the book is about School Life and Crushes/First Love. Teenagers are, like tweens, pretty impressionable, especially in the early teens. Those pictures you showed of the Twilight stuff seem targeted to teens and older. I agree that tweens are probably a bit young, but I disagree that this should make any influence on the readers be dismissed. The Twilight books are taking themselves seriously and the (probably unconscious/unintentional) subtext in there is something that teenagers probably don't take much notice of, but that doesn't mean that they aren't taking it in. Especially with such bland characters that readers can project themselves onto, it makes it easier for them to have fantasies about being in the twilight universe and having Edward love them forever and all that bullshit. I am not saying that adults don't do that (Mills and Boon books sell ridiculously well for that same reason), but that it is probably something more to worry about with the younger readers.

Also, I would argue that there is plenty of sexuality with Miley Cyrus, but that is for another thread maybe.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #65 on: 03 Dec 2009, 14:46 »

Must . . . . Read . . . . Seven Wonders . . . . before . . . . . brain . . . . . fries
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #66 on: 03 Dec 2009, 15:16 »

STAAAATS

Because I am odd like that, and also need to practice my ability with the old stats concept, I did some fancy stats mangling on this. Median age was 20, and modal age was 15, with 10% of the votes. Standard deviation from the mean is 9.25 years. Ages 9-16 account for 28% of the sample. 32 are under 15, 111 under 20, and over 75% of Twilight fans are aged 26 or younger.

What conclusions can we draw from this?
1. The sample is self-selecting, and therefore we cannot know if it is representative of even the forum, let alone Twilight readers as a whole.
2. Assuming that it is representative, though, we can assume that the average Twilight reader is between 13 and 31 (80%), tending towards the lower half of this range - I'm sure there's a mathsy way of doing this, but I'ma guess 17 as the 'average' Twilight reader's age.
3. This Tesco Finest Fish Pie for Two is delicious but I am still hungry.
4. I have WAY too much time on my hands.

If the pernicious cultural influence of a text like this is not apparent, when it deliberately promotes such horrible values to an audience one third of which is under 16, you probably should go off and have a long hard think about just how pervasive many elements of modern culture are. The parallels between Twilight's fetishisation of an abusive relationship and the world's fetishisation of a particular body-type are pretty apparent to me - and look how well that body-fetishisation has served us.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #67 on: 03 Dec 2009, 16:21 »

Eris, I find that a lot of young adult books have characters a few years older than their target audience, if we are using the bizarre young adult definition of late elementary to about the end of junior high (9-13 or so). Probably to tap into the aspect of them being cool because they are older, so they have to be cool, regardless of how well they are actually written. Perhaps my point of view is skewed more than I think it is (I was reading 4th-5th grade books in 1st grade, and reading at a college level by 5th, according to the tests they kept having me take), but from my memory, YA books tend to have protagonists in their teens, how far into their teens tends to vary depending on what part of YA they are aiming at. A huge amount of the fandom that I have seen does seem to be late elementary to high school, with a majority in junior high.

I wouldn't trust the age results on an online poll, too many people lying.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #69 on: 03 Dec 2009, 16:46 »

Caleb, you are a librarian, right? What have you seen with regards to Twilight's demographic (unless you already said it and I missed it, in which case point it out)?
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #70 on: 03 Dec 2009, 17:20 »

I guess if the books were written even half-competently I wouldn't have half the beef with them I do now. It's the combined frustration with poor storytelling and distaste of rabid, obsessive fandom that really irks me.

This.

Twilight, to me, is pretty much the ultimate example of poor execution of an idea. (Though the Eragon movie comes in a close second. No, wait, that was worse...)

The thing that bugs me more than anything else, is that the book, "The Host", proves that Stephenie Meyer can actually write a good story. The Host is vastly far and above Twilight in every single way, yet most people, even a lot of Twilight fangirls, haven't even heard of it. And the premise for Twilight, while not by any stretch, genius, isn't really as stupid as people make it out to be. There are a lot of interesting elements and ideas in there that, in the right hands, could have made for a very interesting narrative.

So, why does the quadrilogy suck so much then?

Well, obviously, its very badly written. That's the most glaring flaw, but like it or not, her stunted prose is very, VERY easy to read. I wonder if this was accidental or actually done intentionally. SOMETHING has made these book spread through the tween and teenage population like wildfire, and the ease with which kids can actually get through the books probably has something to do with that.

Something else that only became apparent to me after I read The Host, and the released partial manuscript for Midnight Sun, is that in the Quadrilogy, Bella's point of view is very, very twisted, but this bizzare point of view was so poorly executed, that it brought the whole story down because it could only be seen through Bella's eyes. After reading Midnight Sun, it's clear that Meyer had a very clear picture of Bella as a character, and she is by no means meant to be a role-model, or even remotely sane or ordinary. Bella is more of a freak than Edward.
In my opinion, Twilight would have been a very, very different story if it had been written in the third-person, rather than from bella's perspective. Or even from any of the other character's perspectives. But it wasn't, so I guess we'll never know.

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #71 on: 03 Dec 2009, 17:48 »

I wouldn't discount anything yet. I mean, I love Harry Potter, but I blanched when I heard Rowling discussing a "Potter-Encyclopedia" or an   Albus Severus  spinoff. She hasn't done anything yet (barring the "Dumbledore's gay!" thing), and while I suspect this is largely due to the fact that there are still 2* more movies coming out, I can't help but think fondly of her rags-to-riches story and seemingly ferocious intelligence. I don't think Stephenie Meyer would be as dignified in letting her series rest, not to mention the fact that any Twilight fan I know would jump at the chance to read another book, even if it's simply the same story told from a different perspective (it worked for Orson Scott Card with Ender's Shadow).

*Book 7 is being divided into 2 films, remember.
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Alex C

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #72 on: 03 Dec 2009, 18:01 »

Bella is more of a freak than Edward.

It can certainly be interpreted that way, but I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe that to author's intent. Meyer's interactions with Twilight fan community never seem to encourage anything but taking the book at face value; she comes across as the sort of fanfic writer that specializes in Mary Sues. She's referred to Bella being more mature than she was a that age, which is somewhat worrying. If she's at all worried that some people might see Bella as a role model, she sure isn't showing it, what with all the prancing around in a reproduction of Bella's prom dress.
« Last Edit: 03 Dec 2009, 18:03 by Alex C »
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #73 on: 03 Dec 2009, 18:06 »

That's rather different though, since that aspect of the books isn't practical to emulate. Even if you did decide to be like Poirot people are unlikely to start mysteriously dying every time you go on holiday and attempts to involve yourself in any cases that do arise will be quashed due to your unfortunate lack of an international reputation as a Belgian super-sleuth with a superb moustache.

I can grow the 'stache - but my wife will get right tee'd off if everytime we get to go on vacation someone had to die and I have to solve the crime.  

I've seen the first movie - my neice was visiting and she absolutely had to see it.  My biggest objection to it was the completely horrible acting and the overemphasis on the sexual element of vampires while ignoring the whole "embodiment of the fear of death" thing...While I can often turn my brain off in certain movies and say "Entertain me!" this movie had enough jarring elements for me to be unable to do so.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #74 on: 03 Dec 2009, 22:14 »

The thing that bugs me more than anything else, is that the book, "The Host", proves that Stephenie Meyer can actually write a good story. The Host is vastly far and above Twilight in every single way

The Host is slightly better written, but is still not a good book. I agree that the ideas in both Twilight and The Host are good ideas (albeit fairly cliched and overdone already), but The Host is full of bizarre damaging ideas as Twilight. TVTropes is good to read when looking at the different themes in those books (and many others, I might add)

I read a Twilight fanfiction where Bella was being abused by her father after she moves home because she reminds him so much of her mother, and she blames her "clumsiness" for all the bruising she has. Edward notices this and smells the burst blood vessels from her bruising or something, and he, uh, tries to get her to confront Charlie or something? it was a while ago and the fic wasn't complete when I read it. Anyway, I thought that was a much better way of doing the story, because it gave Bella an actual character and proper problems rather than her "OMG I am sooo clumsy and like, wish Edward would look at me" shit. It is things like that which make me defend fanfitcion. Whilst wading through the myriad of "Bella is a Nerd and Edward is the Jock Playa" fics there are some gems which actually are interesting. There are also the really terribly written fics that make no sense at all which are hilarious by themselves.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #75 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:22 »

TVTropes

Oh no yr not pulling me in to that again
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #76 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:24 »

Speaking of Twilight fan fiction, this is an absolute wonder.

In short, Bella wakes to Edward watching her, they do some naughty kissing, and it escalates into Edward going down on her while she menstruates on him. Then when he's filled with bloodlust he takes off into the woods and masturbates.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #77 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:33 »

How did you find this?
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #78 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:34 »

->Jeans.  Reading what I wrote again I come off like an idiot and an ass, that was not what I was going for and I apologize.  I'll just say that arguing is definitely not my strong suite and I'm trying to get better at it.

And I'm going to flex my stance a bit.  I think the books is marketed at the kids coming directly out of their tweens who are just starting to notice boys. I've heard girls my age talk about how amazing Twilight is (my old roommate was in love with it even though she thought it was stupid).  But what I've started to notice a little bit more is that some girls I know have read Twilight, liked Twilight, but agree that it's one of the worst written books they've read.

And people who've read the book, can you enlighten me on a point?  Why does Bella hate her father so much, I've just seen the two movies and the dude is there for her and caring all the time?  Why is she such a bitch to him?

I don't think Meyer knew so much about Bella when she was writing the quad.  If she knew Bella's character quite well then it would have at least seeped through these four books instead, Bella is a complete Mary-Sue.  If she was meant to be crazy and creepy when we see it through Edward's eyes she would also be a little bit crazy and creepy when we read through Twilight and the rest. But from everything I've read/heard Bella has the dynamic range of a cardboard box.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #80 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:48 »

Also Ikrik, It's completely possible to love a book personally, but hate it in every way critically. That might be what your old roommate is doing.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #81 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:55 »

How did you find this?

Topless Robot, mang! Fan Fiction Friday! It's also how I found Hogwarts and The Giant Squid in: "First Encounter," which is 100% about a giant squid fucking a castle.

No, really:

Quote
Another sigh swept through the halls of Hogwarts. "Oh, Merlin. That feels so good." His rapture turned to fright as he felt a tentacle work its way into a second window. "I don't--"

"Trust me. It'll feel good. Remember this?" He pulled the suction cups a little harder and Hogwarts groaned.

"Do that again."
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Ikrik

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #82 on: 03 Dec 2009, 23:55 »

Also Ikrik, It's completely possible to love a book personally, but hate it in every way critically. That might be what your old roommate is doing.

Oh, I totally know, what surprised me is that it's not one or two but five or six of them that feel exactly the same way.  It makes me wonder how much of the demographic think the same way.  

Oh and I'm reading the partial manuscript for Midnight Sun.  I'm on page 12 and it's ridiculously entertaining.  Meyer released it so you can just google it and get the manuscript.  I highly recommend it, hilarious.  I would quote some of it but it's really just all horrible.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #83 on: 04 Dec 2009, 00:21 »

Oh and I'm reading the partial manuscript for Midnight Sun.  I'm on page 12 and it's ridiculously entertaining.  Meyer released it so you can just google it and get the manuscript.  I highly recommend it, hilarious.  I would quote some of it but it's really just all horrible.
Can you find it on her site? I thought it got leaked all over the place and she threw a bitchfit and quit writing, I didn't know she put it up.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #84 on: 04 Dec 2009, 00:26 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Sun_(novel)

"[...] she thought that she would begin working on the novel again once she was sure that "everyone's forgotten about it".[5]"


So, if you don't want to see this book published just gently remind her every year or so.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #85 on: 04 Dec 2009, 00:27 »

She put it up on her site after she stopped writing it. It is all there.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #86 on: 04 Dec 2009, 00:31 »

surely you don't think culture has no effect on people's behaviour or thinking?
Culture influences people in sort of the same way that guns kill people. Which is to say, culture influences people, but I can stick my fingers in my ears and go "na na na na" so really who's to say that culture influences people? It's like that flavored powder you put in your water. It's a part of every drink you take but it doesn't really add anything. We can pay lip service to the fact that people's behavior is influenced by outside forces yet in so very few cases are those outside forces really a factor. To have them actually up space is to render us supremely uncomfortable about our power over ourselves.

So it might be the case that women are perpetually bombarded by messages about how the shame they should feel over their bodies and their desires and about what they should sacrifice in the name of love, but ultimately their feelings are their own responsibility, or more likely the responsibility of the parent whose actions are apparently the only factor in the entire system of influences that could have been meaningfully different, bringing it back down again to a single person's arbritary choice, conveniently enough the choice of the person with the least cumulative power. Problems with body image? Just another type of narcissism. Keep dating bad guys? Just have to pick them better next time. Addiction? It's all about how much you want to stay clean. At no point does a game or a book or your memories of your dad beating the shit out of your mom make it impossible for you to choose, thus all of these things are ultimately worthless when we're talking about influence.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #87 on: 04 Dec 2009, 07:17 »

Caleb, you are a librarian, right? What have you seen with regards to Twilight's demographic (unless you already said it and I missed it, in which case point it out)?

I am in charge of buying books for the adult collection.  Due to demand I have been forced to buy a full set of Twilight books TWICE for the adult collection.  People keep on taking them and not returning.

There are are a lot of adults reading these books.  I know that the twenty-somethings that work at my gym were all reading it awhile back.

This is a kinda rural/suburban area.  There is less backlash against adults reading the book so I think more do.  I think the movies are driving the reading a bit more here.  Also Oprah did an interview recently and that has caused some buzz.

It's tough to run the numbers though.  I am sure many younger people are checking out the books from the adult collection because they are checked in.  Older people ARE reading these books though.

Not enough of them for me to change up what I am buying though.  People in the area love the murder mysteries.  Every time someone like Kathy Reichs comes out with a new books I gotta lease like five extra copies.
« Last Edit: 04 Dec 2009, 07:22 by Caleb »
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KvP

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #88 on: 04 Dec 2009, 19:41 »

surely you don't think culture has no effect on people's behaviour or thinking?
Culture influences people in sort of the same way that guns kill people. Which is to say, culture influences people, but I can stick my fingers in my ears and go "na na na na" so really who's to say that culture influences people? It's like that flavored powder you put in your water. It's a part of every drink you take but it doesn't really add anything. We can pay lip service to the fact that people's behavior is influenced by outside forces yet in so very few cases are those outside forces really a factor. To have them actually up space is to render us supremely uncomfortable about our power over ourselves.

So it might be the case that women are perpetually bombarded by messages about how the shame they should feel over their bodies and their desires and about what they should sacrifice in the name of love, but ultimately their feelings are their own responsibility, or more likely the responsibility of the parent whose actions are apparently the only factor in the entire system of influences that could have been meaningfully different, bringing it back down again to a single person's arbritary choice, conveniently enough the choice of the person with the least cumulative power. Problems with body image? Just another type of narcissism. Keep dating bad guys? Just have to pick them better next time. Addiction? It's all about how much you want to stay clean. At no point does a game or a book or your memories of your dad beating the shit out of your mom make it impossible for you to choose, thus all of these things are ultimately worthless when we're talking about influence.
Man I was so drunk last night.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #89 on: 05 Dec 2009, 16:49 »

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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #90 on: 06 Dec 2009, 08:25 »

I see your fifteen minutes and I raise you New Moon in a Minute.

Shockingly accurate.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #91 on: 06 Dec 2009, 14:37 »

I love that video so much.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #92 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:24 »

I love you.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #93 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:24 »

Wait, was that awkward? Too soon?

Sorry for creepin'.
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scarred

Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #94 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:34 »

Too soon?

I've been waiting for years!

Let's elope.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #95 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:35 »

I'll get the camera
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Liz

Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #96 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:44 »

Alright, looks like I'm getting married, folks. You're all invited to the wedding!
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #97 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48 »

So we'll need three columns of seats - your family, my family, and QC.

OR we could make it a QC exclusive. And then sell footage on the internet to pay for our house.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #98 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:54 »

Ooo, can I help plan? I'll even sell tickets at the door if you want to go that way.
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Re: Twilight (Sorry for cursing)
« Reply #99 on: 06 Dec 2009, 15:57 »

We can totally do a crazy wedding. Linds you can be in charge of whatever you want. You are my other half/evil twin/whatever everyone thinks, I trust you to do what is right.
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