Topic: Heavy Rain (Read 31257 times)

KvP · « **Reply #50 on:** 01 Mar 2010, 21:30 »

To be fair, I had about the same reaction to The Witcher. Not in the particulars, but in how insulted I felt by the game.

Alex C · « **Reply #51 on:** 01 Mar 2010, 21:39 »

The shitty thing about the witcher is that there's good stuff in there, which can make you extra angry. Overall, I liked it, but I certainly have no inclination to defend it in light of the bad.

Number17 · « **Reply #52 on:** 01 Mar 2010, 22:02 »

I dunno.

I felt like Heavy Rain could be more than it really was.

Sadly, it wasn't.

It wasn't for me.

Felrender · « **Reply #53 on:** 01 Mar 2010, 22:33 »

I think I had about this same reaction with Indigo Prophecy, and, looking back, I know when the game stopped being an engaging story for me. The first time Whathisname displays a hint of power, when he Rider Kicks his punching bag off the chain, there's no reaction. He's just blank.

KvP · « **Reply #54 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 00:15 »

Quote from: KvP on 28 Feb 2010, 21:57

The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation.

Interestingly enough I ran across an interview with David Cage wherein he said that the point of making deaths and the like permanent but not fatal to the storyline is because the game was made not with replayability in mind, but with the intention of making a particular playthrough "the player's game". That is, the first playthrough, determined by the choices of the player, is meant to be definitive for the player. It's an interesting sentiment for a developer to have, and not an unreasonable one, as few people who actually beat a game (which is not a majority of gamers, statistically) actually replay it.

FIXDIX · « **Reply #55 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 00:19 »

Well, I'm sold.

Ikrik · « **Reply #56 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 12:38 »

Quote from: Number17 on 01 Mar 2010, 22:02

I dunno.

I felt like Heavy Rain could be more than it really was.

Sadly, it wasn't.

It wasn't for me.

It seems that what you wanted was for it to be a completely different game. Honestly though, it bewilders me completely as to why you would buy it at all. Do you realize how much coverage this game has had, did you not see how many gameplay videos were up? Did you not watch them? Every single high-profile release has tons of gameplay videos everywhere. From this I know that FFXIII, Just Cause 2, GT5, Lost Planet 2, Nier (I could go on) hold no interest for me. The fact that you would buy another game from Quantic Dream after hating Farenheit, even though the games are insanely similar, baffles me.

But whatever. The game seems to have some trophy and freezing issues at the moment. I'm kind of glad that mine hasn't arrived at my doorstep yet, I get a little paranoid with my PS3.

Number17 · « **Reply #57 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 17:52 »

I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.

To be honest, the connection to Quantic Dream and Fahrenheit didn't snap together until after the fact. I'm not exactly saying that was a good idea on my part, but it serves as a reminder to myself that maybe high raves doesn't exactly mean it holds true to my own personal tastes.

Seriously, dumb this game down enough and it's Dragon's Lair without all the death scenes.

RallyMonkey · « **Reply #58 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 18:33 »

Quote from: Number17 on 01 Mar 2010, 18:08

I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.

Quote from: Number17 on 02 Mar 2010, 17:52

I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.

Quote from: RallyMonkey on 01 Mar 2010, 18:27

I just think you're being particularly silly.

SWOON! at My Gravitas · « **Reply #59 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 18:45 »

Ugh, this game makes me wish I had a PS3 soooo bad.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #60 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:10 »

I'm just baffled why you're still here arguing like we're arguing with you on any particular point except that you're remarkably silly for A) playing the game when just looking at a gameplay video would've shown you you wouldn't like it and 2) being so goshdarn angry at a game for being really really good in a direction you have no desire to play.

Number17 · « **Reply #61 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:35 »

Quote from: RallyMonkey on 02 Mar 2010, 18:33

Quote from: Number17 on 01 Mar 2010, 18:08
I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.

Quote from: Number17 on 02 Mar 2010, 17:52
I read a review, saw a score and got a recommendation from a friend.

Quote from: RallyMonkey on 01 Mar 2010, 18:27
I just think you're being particularly silly.

Again, I said that I didn't make the Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain connection.

Give me a break here.

Number17 · « **Reply #62 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:37 »

Quote from: Ozymandias on 02 Mar 2010, 22:10

I'm just baffled why you're still here arguing like we're arguing with you on any particular point except that you're remarkably silly for A) playing the game when just looking at a gameplay video would've shown you you wouldn't like it and 2) being so goshdarn angry at a game for being really really good in a direction you have no desire to play.

Still going to defend my point to the grave.

I hated it.

Felrender · « **Reply #63 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:43 »

I, too, pay 60+ without researching my games.

DarkAvenger · « **Reply #64 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:53 »

Just two things that I take issue with about your posts. Nothing too big, I'm sure you will be able to take an unwarranted defensive stance against both. So you say you didn't see the connection between Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain until AFTER you played Heavy Rain, yet you say this:

Quote from: Number17 on 01 Mar 2010, 18:08

So, I got the game assuming that maybe that Fahrenheit was a fluke.

Which kind of hints at you, you know... Making a connection between the two games. Of course this is all invalidated by the fact that you might have only seen a comparison between the QTE of both games. But if you did not like the QTE of Fahrenheit, why would you then assume that they would be different for Heavy Rain. That all QTE are not in fact, the same, other than use in plot, I mean, Spider-man 3 and Heavy Rain obviously use them in different ways, but if a gameplay mechanic is built around QTE's you'd have to be an ~~idiot~~ (sorry don't want to incite rage) fool to not think that the same thing that displeases you between one game would magically disappear. So really you either didn't know anything about Heavy Rain other than a bunch of reviewers told you to purchase it, in which case you are easily told what to do OR you are for some reason trying to defend something by lying you needn't because an opinion is an opinion. No matter how stupidly formed it is.

Note this isn't anything against you, and my point has been articulated much more fluently earlier in the thread, but looking at your post history is kind of ridiculous.

The second point by the way is the fact that you somehow managed to read a review, saw a score, got a recommendation from a friend, and purchase a game without ever thinking "woah, this game is extremely similar in gameplay style to a game I REALLY DIDN'T LIKE"

Ozymandias · « **Reply #65 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 22:59 »

Right your point is you hated it and no one's saying you didn't hate it so why are you defending a point no one's debating?

Number17 · « **Reply #66 on:** 02 Mar 2010, 23:31 »

I have no idea anymore.

David_Dovey · « **Reply #67 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 03:44 »

Yay! Discussion over! Yay!

Quote from: Sam on 28 Feb 2010, 18:37

you want it to be one way.

Sam I could hug you so hard right now

Jimmy the Squid · « **Reply #68 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 04:27 »

I watched that trailer in the OP but I had to stop when she started showering. I wasn't wearing any clothes because I just woke up and watching it naked just weirded me out too much and now I can't be bothered.

JD · « **Reply #69 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 07:04 »

That's a shame, because the part that comes after is really cool.

Johnny C · « **Reply #70 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 09:08 »

if you think this game is like dragon's lair you haven't fucking played dragon's lair

Number17 · « **Reply #71 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 09:39 »

Apparently, I'm not the only one who thought the plot sucked: http://www.destructoid.com/why-heavy-rain-has-lowered-the-bar-for-game-narrative-165426.phtml

Ozymandias · « **Reply #72 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 10:36 »

Eh. That's not a good condemnation of it I think.

This makes a much better point and really digs to the heart of the issue of games as art and Heavy Rain in particular.

KvP · « **Reply #73 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 17:45 »

Ebert hasn't been "proven right". He's yet to have been proven wrong. It's kind of bullshit to suggest that Heavy Rain "lowers the bar" for gaming considering how seriously fucking stupid gaming narratives tend to be. Heavy Rain has nothing on Gears of War.

Number17 · « **Reply #74 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 19:30 »

You mean where you have no idea what the fuck is going on? Yeah, I'm with you on that.

How about Resistance or Resistance II? Plot sucked as well.

In fact, the only time I was really really engaged in plots recently was Batman: Arkham Asylum and Mass Effect 2.

NeverQuiteGoth · « **Reply #75 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 21:23 »

I'm only about half-way through my first play of Heavy Rain, but I absolutely love it.

Number17 keeps talking about not having control of the characters, but really, Heavy Rain gives you more control over the characters than any game I've ever played. It just strips out all the useless game-play that has nothing to do with the story. This is a game that is PERFECTLY balanced between story and game-play.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how being able to make your character spin around in circles and bunnyhop makes for better gameplay. The controls in Heavy Rain are so perfectly meshed with the action that it almost feels real. And this is even more true when you mess up: mistakes are completely and seamlessly incorporated into what's happening.

I hate games that make you play through some long and pointless "level" (using gameplay elements that are either irrelevant to the story, or outright violations of the story's universe.) which is basically just there to eat up your time until you finally beat it and are rewarded with a pat on the head and another pittance of story.

You can call Heavy Rain an "interactive movie" and deride it for that. But for $50, you get a roughly TEN HOUR experience that makes you feel more involved with the characters than in any game I've ever played, and can be significantly different each time you "watch" it. That's a better deal than $20 for nearly any movie.

Number17 · « **Reply #76 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 22:02 »

Wait until you reach the end.

NeverQuiteGoth · « **Reply #77 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 22:05 »

Quote from: Number17 on 03 Mar 2010, 22:02

Wait until you reach the end.

Which end? You're talking about a story where any combination of the four main characters can die at any point, in any order.

Johnny C · « **Reply #78 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 22:34 »

ebert's not right or at the very most he's only part right and if any of you fucks were with it enough to consider games as TEXT as opposed to games as ART and if you knew anything about authorial theory (as opposed to auteur theory which is a simplified and film-specific version of it) you would know that the major debate since barthes has been the importance of the author and the relative interpretation & perspectives brought to text by an individual, and the question is whether any reading has primacy over another

at most you could say serious film/literature/art/whatever relies on SOME form of authorial control - as do video games

you mooks

KvP · « **Reply #79 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 23:00 »

To a certain extent auteur theory can be applied to games. I've certainly argued long and hard for Chris Avellone's inclusion in that sort of a concept, but outside of his work it's hard to find specific individuals who fit the bill (Ken Levine maybe, Hideo Kojima, probably a few other Japanese gaming luminaries) I don't know how you'd approach authorial control with regard to games because since games these days (aside from indies like Braid) are made by dozens of people. A game like Mass Effect 2 is akin to maybe a thematically unified short story collection or a novel written in parts by different authors, and even with a pretty decent amount of quality control it's inconsistent to some extent.

Anyway, I'd disagree with Ebert and say that games are art. But I'd say that, especially as games become more "cinematic", games are showing themselves to be, with few exceptions, bad art. I would say that we need a different metric, or several metrics, related to mechanics that separate games from other mediums. Honestly were you to analyze even the best games by film standards they would be judged as clumsy at best and bad at worst. A good part of this is due to the fact that until very recently, subtle storytelling was far more difficult to accomplish in games. There was no "show versus tell". There was only "tell". And so you got lots and lots of expository dialogue (you even get this in "literate" RPGs like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect) and lots of flat descriptions. That sort of habit is hard to break. We're just now getting to the point where you can reasonably approximate body language in models, where you can convey messages without having them said, and you can have the "camera" establish things without being utterly confusing. One of the significant reasons Bioshock is as well-regarded as it is is because the audio diaries you pick up only tell half the story. Everything in the game world - The splicers, the way you have to pay for everything (except the vitachambers, although that is explained eventually), the plasmids - establishes the theme of the game, which is why it's such a great setting (Bioshock 2, on the other hand, sucked in this regard).

Johnny C · « **Reply #80 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 23:04 »

john did you even read my post

KvP · « **Reply #81 on:** 03 Mar 2010, 23:07 »

I'll post whatever I like when I'm sedated, you.

20 jazz funk greats · « **Reply #82 on:** 08 Mar 2010, 19:11 »

i have a copy of this, i received it by accident while ordering things from amazon. it sounds neat based on what i've read about it.
should i unwrap it or return it? (it's still sealed)

JD · « **Reply #83 on:** 08 Mar 2010, 19:30 »

Depends on whether you have a PS3 or not.

20 jazz funk greats · « **Reply #84 on:** 08 Mar 2010, 19:41 »

um, i don't have one myself.
but got it as a gift from an acquaintance who is pretty dang good at video games. (she's a frag doll cadette!)

returning it would be rude AND hypocritical. fuck it, must unwrap and kidnap a friend with a ps3.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #85 on:** 08 Mar 2010, 20:18 »

It is funny how even in threads which are not even discussing them, John snipes at Bethesda and BioWare.

Dimmukane · « **Reply #86 on:** 08 Mar 2010, 21:15 »

He's gonna be the dude lauding Marcel Duchamp's entry into the medium.

Just to riff on his argument though, though, I think developers are still using so much expository dialogue because there is a lot more to explain. Particularly in the RPGs you always peck at, where the developers are trying to fill you in on this pretty big universe they've created. They're getting better at it, certainly, but to be financially solvent they're still gonna have to cater to the dumber people who can't pick up on it like you or I, or they wouldn't sell nearly as many copies. Or they could cut the lore, and have a bunch of nerds throw a shitfit, which thankfully they haven't done (although there have been a few RPGs where lore was near non-existent and they were all considered to be pretty awful in terms of narrative). Compare this to a movie like, oh, I don't know...Star Wars, or Willow. Since there is only one possible outcome of those movies, they only need to let you know enough to understand the plot. Even then (and this is more of a sci-fi thing, anyways, as a lot of the people who are into sci-fi like to know how purely fictional technologies work), they still do a fair bit of explaining the politics and wildlife. In linear narratives, a lot less is needed for the player (or viewer) to grasp the setting and mood.

Basically what I'm getting at is that it is really hard to justify the amount of exposition in these broad, exploratory, branching RPGs when you are comparing them to the singular, pre-determined narratives in film and literature.

If any part of this seems incoherent, I apologize, I've had about 3 hours sleep in the last 2 days.

Gemmwah · « **Reply #87 on:** 09 Mar 2010, 06:01 »

Quote from: 20 jazz funk greats on 08 Mar 2010, 19:41

... an acquaintance who is pretty dang good at video games. (she's a frag doll cadette!)

This semester's cadette class is naff. Mostly just a bunch of PMS girls, so I don't see the point, they might as well just go and ask PMS directly if anyone's interested.

20 jazz funk greats · « **Reply #88 on:** 09 Mar 2010, 13:44 »

i was gonna apply for class of 2010 but missed the deadline, busy with actual software development.
not necessarily video games.

also, this particular girl is becoming more of a friend than an aquaintance, but in a slow, natural way.
her snes collection is massive. and her application essay was quite impressive.
i dunno which cadettes you're referring to, gemma, but the one i am talking bout is not a full time student at pms.
(or is it pmt in your crazy brit slang?)

KvP · « **Reply #89 on:** 09 Mar 2010, 18:50 »

Quote from: Ozymandias on 08 Mar 2010, 20:18

It is funny how even in threads which are not even discussing them, John snipes at Bethesda and BioWare.

Gemmwah · « **Reply #90 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 01:31 »

Quote from: 20 jazz funk greats on 09 Mar 2010, 13:44

i was gonna apply for class of 2010 but missed the deadline, busy with actual software development.
not necessarily video games.

also, this particular girl is becoming more of a friend than an aquaintance, but in a slow, natural way.
her snes collection is massive. and her application essay was quite impressive.
i dunno which cadettes you're referring to, gemma, but the one i am talking bout is not a full time student at pms.
(or is it pmt in your crazy brit slang?)

I'm just saying, I think it's a bit messed up that out of 12 slots, 1/3 of those went to PMS girls. The fact that most girls from PMS and dudes from H2O are as annoying as shit is neither here nor there. I think actually, the only girl that I'm pleased about making it is Lirael/kaitlyn.

Also it's Gemm, not Gemma.

KvP · « **Reply #91 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 01:50 »

Gemmwah.

tricia kidd · « **Reply #92 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 11:08 »

i played this last night at a friend's house and didn't even get to the "exciting" parts and it was still the most amazing gaming experience i've ever had.

it's scary how totally immersive it is. and people who say that it doesn't condescend with a false pretense of "control" that other games offer are spot-on.

i hope more games like this get made, and sell well, because a game like this with a bigger budget which allowed you more freedom of exploration/interaction with the world/characters would be godly.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #93 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 12:09 »

Heavy Rain already had a pretty big budget, and wouldn't giving you more freedom of exploration and interaction completely miss the point of what this game is about? I don't understand how you can say having control is a condescension and then immediately ask for more freedom in the sequel.

tricia kidd · « **Reply #94 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 14:24 »

i just meant bigger budget for, say, voice actors so you could have more conversations and, at some points, explore the environment a bit more. basically i just meant it would be amazing if you could just randomly go off exploring or doing pointless things. i'm not saying that should replace this specific game's goal, which is showing you a very specific story, but i think a game could be made that has more freedom but retains the virtues of this one.

it's hard to be specific since, as i said, i didn't get very far into the game at all, but i'm imagining something like a GTA open-world in terms of size, but this game's attention to detail wrt realism and plot. for example, instead of a chapter starting you off in the place you need to explore, make you do the work to find out where you should even be going at all, or why.

but not with planescape-scale walls of text (or voice, in this case) because i seriously hate the gameplay design of "just go talk to everyone and listen to their incredibly long stories on the off chance it will be useful). it would be great to have a game where trying to talk to complete strangers resulted in "do i know you?" rather than "hello there, let me tell you A STORY and by the way, could you find MY ITEM for me?"

edit: oh and my point about condescending pretense of control was echoing what others have said, which is that you have more control in this game than in, say, Super Mario Brothers because the only thing you can really do in most games is make it to the next level or fail. being able to "fail" yet still have the game continue, and adapt to your failure, is much more control than games typically give you.

RallyMonkey · « **Reply #95 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 14:52 »

Quote from: Storm Rider on 10 Mar 2010, 12:09

Heavy Rain already had a pretty big budget, and wouldn't giving you more freedom of exploration and interaction completely miss the point of what this game is about? I don't understand how you can say having control is a condescension and then immediately ask for more freedom in the sequel.

I always thought the point of the game was in giving you control of the story, rather than the character. With the ability to kill off all four main characters and such. That is what I would think you mean by more freedom, being able to make even more choices that change the storyline.

tricia kidd · « **Reply #96 on:** 10 Mar 2010, 16:12 »

Quote from: RallyMonkey on 10 Mar 2010, 14:52

I always thought the point of the game was in giving you control of the story, rather than the character. With the ability to kill off all four main characters and such. That is what I would think you mean by more freedom, being able to make even more choices that change the storyline.

yeah, that too. maybe even a game in which there exist several stories, and one might not even experience them all (or even know they exist or how they connect to the "main" story).

basically i'm just saying combine this game with a sandbox game and you would have the best game of all time. it would be like a "life simulator" only with a plot (something life often lacks).

for example, let's say there's this hypothetical game (let's call it World) where you can pretty much do whatever you want. you start out not really knowing anything weird is going to happen (much how Heavy Rain starts). let's say in this game you decide to walk to a coffee shop on the corner, sit down and read a book or whatever. while you're there, you overhear a conversation about a friend of yours being missing, which leads you to pursue their whereabouts in whatever way you want (call mutual friends, go to where he was last seen, call the cops, go to places they hung out, etc.)

or you don't do that, and decide to go to a bar at night. while walking home, you see someone get murdered in an alley, and you deal with that situation (which is somehow connected to your missing friend, who you don't yet know is missing). etc.

KvP · « **Reply #97 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 21:57 »

Sales info puts units sold on Heavy Rain at about 220k, which is pretty staggering considering how odd the game is.

NeverQuiteGoth · « **Reply #98 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 04:28 »

Quote from: tricia kidd on 10 Mar 2010, 16:12

...

ur kool. wil u b my frnd?

lol, seriously though.

I just finished the game the other night. Great ending. Reminded me of so many mediocre but exciting whodunit movies from like the ninties or whenever, only better. I was just a tad disappointed by the reveal of who the killer is. Seems like they could have foreshadowed that a bit better. Reminds me of the twist in Fight Club, though. You really don't see it coming, and a part of you wonders if maybe the writers didn't see it coming either.

I got the mostly happy ending where *SPOILER* Ethan, Madison, and the boy survive and live happily ever after, but the FBI agent fails miserably in his investigation. *endSPOILER*

Epicly awesome game, as a whole, IMO. There really do need to be more games like this.

jhocking · « **Reply #99 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 04:48 »

Quote from: tricia kidd on 10 Mar 2010, 16:12

basically i'm just saying combine this game with a sandbox game and you would have the best game of all time. it would be like a "life simulator" only with a plot (something life often lacks).

for example, let's say there's this hypothetical game (let's call it World) where you can pretty much do whatever you want. you start out not really knowing anything weird is going to happen (much how Heavy Rain starts). let's say in this game you decide to walk to a coffee shop on the corner, sit down and read a book or whatever. while you're there, you overhear a conversation about a friend of yours being missing, which leads you to pursue their whereabouts in whatever way you want (call mutual friends, go to where he was last seen, call the cops, go to places they hung out, etc.)

or you don't do that, and decide to go to a bar at night. while walking home, you see someone get murdered in an alley, and you deal with that situation (which is somehow connected to your missing friend, who you don't yet know is missing). etc.

Actually, this is pretty ingenius, but it also leads to the reason why a game like this would be awful hard to justify funding for. Think about all the things you could choose to do after overhearing that conversation in the coffee shop (ie. the stuff you listed.) Now think about all the work it would take to develop that content. Now think about the exec thundering "so wait you just blew $100 million on shit the player will never even see?!?"

Which isn't entirely an insurmountable problem, but it falls very much into the realm of research (specifically, the research of guys like Michael Mateas or Chris Crawford.)

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: Heavy Rain (Read 31257 times)