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Author Topic: Starcraft 2  (Read 95038 times)

snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #350 on: 11 Oct 2010, 14:49 »

I found some micro tournaments. Horribly imba, but it's nice to be able to practice ling vs. bane/ling or even better, practice infestor use. Infestors are so good against everything terran has! Growth against m&m, infested terrans against sieged tanks or anti-banshee if they hit you before you get mutas out, and neural against thors. They're pretty damn good against toss as well. Problem is that it's more apm-intensive to use them than none-spellcasters, they are fragile as hell, and it's all over a safer choice for a noob to go with moar roach/hydra. Which are great, but will only win you a game if you've got better macro and are able to fight where and when you want. Since infestors are the only real spellcaster zerg has (against the two for terran and toss), it's a big shame that I'm unable to use them properly. So micro tournaments are great practice. I recommend it strongly.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #351 on: 11 Oct 2010, 15:16 »

if someone can use infestors right, it's a goddamn nightmare. I've only had it happen a few times in league play but when it does I almost surely lose.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #352 on: 23 Oct 2010, 20:03 »

speaking of zerg, did the latest patch just completely nuke them in terms of builds and stats? or did protoss get nerfed? because i never used to lose as protoss against zerg and now i can't win.
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #353 on: 24 Oct 2010, 13:03 »

The biggest change in the latest patch was a massive upgrade of the roaches, from 3 to 4 in range, meaning that you can't really wall off as toss any more in the early game. Fungal growth now preventing blink is also pretty damn epic.
Other effects was that all races got more hitpoints on some of their buildings (making terran marauder drops slightly less powerful). The only toss change was an upgrade of the normal void ray damage, and a nerf of the charged damage. Which could possibly mean that you can now stop them more easily with queens.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #354 on: 23 Dec 2010, 16:53 »

so I might be addicted to the new DotA variation

this does not bode well for whenever they decide to release the official DotA 2
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #355 on: 03 Jan 2011, 05:55 »

Star Battle is my favorite custom

It's so simple yet so complex
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #356 on: 24 Jan 2011, 06:37 »

Some ASSHOLE IN MY DIVISION plays nonstop and I can't get to the 1st spot in my Diamond division because he's not good enough to get to Master, but he plays enough to keep ahead of me in points. Unless this guy screws off I'll be stuck in Diamond for a while.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #357 on: 24 Jan 2011, 07:25 »

So...

I've had some thoughts tumbling around my head recently, and applying them have gotten me pretty far in a very short amount of time, going from 55% of my games won to 65%. Part of me thinks that I've just gotten a bit better, but I really feel like I've knocked down a wall in the learning process. Of course, I'm incredibly tired and I'm not sure if this is something I could stand behind or if I'm just being silly, and with that in mind I'm a bit timid about sharing ideas on websites more dedicated to SC2, despite the fact that I think I do have a place there. That in mind, I was hoping I could run some ideas past the humble community here, where at least I know that if my ideas are rubbish I at least won't be laughed at by hundreds and hundreds of avid SC2 fans which would break my heart considering how much I love the game.

When I switched to Terran I noticed a big uncertainty that I hadn't felt before. Most of these feelings revolved around timings, such as when to attack and expand. I had the time windows for certain tech deviations from all the races down, but all that helped with was immediate defense and an idea of when to scout. I would play what I thought was decently only to run my army into the ground, doing absolutely no damage, or putting down an expansion that I simply couldn't hold. I thought that it was just my unfamiliarity with the race and my general lack of understanding of appropriate responses to certain unit combinations, having only taken the games from a Zerg point of view prior to my switch. To clear up with issue in a way that wouldn't tank my W/L ration in the ladder, considering I was mid-Diamond at the time prior to the Master League, which I wanted to preserve, I began joining 1v1 practice games after the chat channels were introduced in Patch 1.2. I soon found that my general unit compositions and macro were perfectly fine and it was just my timing that was awkward.

Watching others and thinking about the idea of timings, I considered an idea that really improved my Zerg play when it found a place in my head. As Zerg, I wouldn't be grabbing for any sort of tech or unit after a very early point in the game, but rather a safe way to expand. Get two bases ahead safely, and I would win as Zerg. The safe part was tricky, until I considered units such as Banelings and Infestors. It seems like an obvious idea, but if I see a 4-Barracks opening I would know that it wouldn't be safe to expand until I had Banelings. Banelings wouldn't win me the game, but they would put me in a position to do what I needed to do in order to use the strength of the race. Same with Infestor/Ling in Thor/Marine play off 2 base.

I thought that even though these weren't specific time frames, it was a set pacing to the game, which was normal considering how reactionary Zerg plays. Considering that Terran isn't reactionary, I thought that these times of safety weren't applicable to Terran. Then I realized that with the more streamlined way of Terran tech and preperation for certain styles of play, these safe times could be applied, but at more precise moments. These windows of safety included rather obvious things. A scout showing no early pressure meant you could open without sacrificing economy based on the threat of an early attack. An early Raven was devastating against Protoss once it reached 100 energy for the PDD. Scouting Templar tech woul result in Ghosts, and then another safe period. Thors against Mutalisks. Tanks against Banelings. Less specific, but air dominance in standard TvT play with Tanks. These general ideas, as well as many others, were indications that for the next few minutes in the game, you had control. As Zerg this would mean expanding, and I followed that trend with Terran. I still had the issue of ending the game, because expanding past the second base is so much less meaningful as Terran compared to Zerg.

The reason for that was that Zerg was the macro race, designed to be strong in economy. Terran is supposed to be aggressive, so rather than using the time that Terran is secure to expand, it would always be more useful to attack at that strong point and get the expansion with the money that you save in supply buildings upon trading armies (in your favor), picking up the production buildings once the expansion kicked in. Using ideas from earlier, a strong push against Protoss as soon as a Raven gets enough energy for two PDDs. If you opened 1/1/1 and Raven before any other air, the timing window for this attack is before a strong number of high tech units such as Colossus or High Templar can hit the field. This Raven focused opening also protects you from DT rushes, and with all your gas going to a Raven, Tanks, and a small group of a third air unit of your choice, the minerals leftover from such a gas heavy army are all put towards Marines, which completely shuts down air. It's essentially safe against all openings with a strong timing window. At that point, you'll be in a good position, and you'll also see his tech patch of choice, so you can begin working towards your next safety window while reaping the benefits of a positive army exchange and safe expansion.

This has been working for me fairly well, and it is the same general idea for both the Terran and Zerg play that I used. I've never played Protoss in a serious manner, so I'm not sure that this sits as well on this end of the field, but with the Zerg safety windows being used to expand, Terran windows to attack, I believe Protoss windows are designed for pure tech, considering how much stronger Protoss gets with tech compared to the other races. Not having an in-depth view of Protoss play at a high level, I'm not entirely sure how Protoss find safe times throughout the game past the obvious key number of Sentries to constantly deny pressure with Forcefields. The time given from that will at least grant plenty of time to get down your primary production buildings, expand, and begin pursuing one tech path for a period of time. An expample would be opening two Gate/Robo, getting a solid army with 5 or so Sentries with enough energy for multiple Forcefields. Then the Protoss is safe to expand and throw down a Support Bay. The best point after that would be 3 Colossus with the range upgrade. You can make strong use of that tech until they respond to it (Corruptors or Vikings), at which point you've been in a strong position long enough to have moved up to Templar or Stargates after your third expansion.

The general idea seems to work fairly well across the races, and while it's obviously not flawless, like my play or ideas, it's been something that I've been considering for a while. Zerg reach a larva efficient way to hold off an attack, followed by expanding and droning until that larva efficient safety net is countered. Terran reach a strong counter-unit to the other players unit composition, followed and expanding following the army trade behind a net of Bunkers and Siege Tanks. Protoss reaches a critical mass of certain tech-based units that can't be dealt with by the majority of unit compositions, requiring a tech switch by the other race, providing Protoss with the time to expand and explore another tech path, followed by the production buildings making use of that tech.

All the races, and the game itself for that matter, completely revolves around the idea of timing windows where each race uses unique strength of that race, and it begins at the very first scout. A short example, Terran opens 1/1/1, Zerg sees this and knows that it is reasonably safe to 14 hatch. With the added production and income, Zerg is safe from a push until either Siege Tanks or Thors hit the field in reasonable numbers. At that point Terran is in control until Zerg reaches Mutalisks (for Tanks) or heavy Roach numbers (for Thors), at which point the Terran has a (usually) last chance to respond to the Mutas or Roaches with a higher number of Barracks units, and if Zerg manages to hold off that final Terran window by reaching Infestors, Zerg has reached the numbers of bases that is just too difficult to stop considering how strong Zerg is late game. At any one of those time frames the game can be won or lost by one of the races not responding effectively, but this is how the game progresses provided it doesn't end at those times. That's how I've decided to sum up SC2 metagame.

Any ideas and criticism is more than welcome, because it's just in the theory point in my head right now, so I won't be offended and I'm actually looking build upon the ideas.
« Last Edit: 24 Jan 2011, 07:47 by Nick and Marla »
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #358 on: 24 Jan 2011, 07:27 »

I'm sorry, I'm really tired and it seemed like a good idea at the time, but then I realized how much I posted and how much most of you probably don't give a shit, I feel like an idiot.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #359 on: 24 Jan 2011, 08:08 »

Dude, no worries. I spent at least as much text rambling about Civilization on two different occasions. It's actually interesting to read if you are into SC! WoW isn't the only game that gets nerd theory talk on here.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #360 on: 24 Jan 2011, 15:33 »

How dare he post about SC2 in the SC2 thread!

How Dare He!
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #361 on: 24 Jan 2011, 16:00 »

How dare he post about me posting about SC2 in the SC2 thread!

etc.

It was unprovoked and long, and to be quite honest I don't think I'm qualified to rant about my thoughts until I'm in Master League.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #362 on: 24 Jan 2011, 16:52 »

Uh, I don't know how highly placed the rest of the people here are to be quite honest, but I'm in all diamond/platinum leagues and I'd feel perfectly justified in posting my thoughts, if I felt like it.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #363 on: 25 Jan 2011, 03:15 »

I suck at SC2.

That is all.
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #364 on: 25 Jan 2011, 05:26 »

I've started replying to this thread three times already, and I've forgotten about it and closed the browser every damn time.

As a zerg player (currently in hiatus) I've got some experience with comfort zones. I usually 15-hatch/14-pool/13-gas or some such, and unless any offense is coming up, I'll be making drones. Safety windows are important to get into the style you want, but you can force them instead of waiting for their timings - and that'll probably give you a good edge in the game. Usually, the first safety window for zergs is from start until the push/harass shows up at his door, but you can force them to be longer or safer through successful 5-roach harass (be sure not to loose too many roaches), or pure trickery. Just recently day9 casted a zvp where the zerg went for 8-pool or some such, saw that the toss as expected walled in with canons, and went straight for a super-safe expo. Toss and Terran can do something similar by faking voidrays or banshees during a scout (toss canceling the stargate, terran switching the core back to the factory and start pumping vikings or medivacs) - your opponent will be getting anti-air, and you can fight it effectively with strong ground pushes, or be safe while he's reading for your harass.

For terran, it's very effective to do 2-marine or 4-marine harasses against any match-up, it'll force your opponent to make units that's no threat to your wall off, while you can macro as you want - you'll retain your safety window, and decrease the window of your opponent.
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Odal

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #365 on: 16 Feb 2011, 05:03 »

So, I just got this game and it took forever to download and install + all of the patches (took about 40 hours in total ._.).  I'm really not interested in custom maps.  I eventually want to get into ladder games.  I played ladder games back in Wc3, and have played the original SC albeit not very seriously, so I do have some feel for what to expect in SC2.

I still have my 50 matches to practice and I'd like to find one race and stick with it.  Could someone give me a good source of info races and build orders and whatnot?  I guess a starter's guide to SC2 ladder games?  Or perhaps give me some tips here even.  I can't check right now (at work), but last I checked Blizzard's forums weren't very good for this sort of thing.

I'm leaning towards going with Zerg, but that's mostly for aesthetic reasons.  I really don't know which race's playstyle I'll like most.  I tend to lean towards the macro aspect of games than the micro, though I know I'll need both if I want to get serious.

Edit - I guess I should clarify that I'm only interested in 1v1.  Though I'm not quite sure yet if there is even ladder for team matches.  I imagine so.
« Last Edit: 16 Feb 2011, 05:09 by Odal »
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #366 on: 16 Feb 2011, 10:17 »

I'm mostly familiar with zerg myself, and they are a very macro oriented race - you are probably not winning if your opponent is matching you in army size. It's a pretty hard race to play - while the other two races pumps harvesters non-stop until they hit a certain number, you'll have to vary between making drones and making attack units.

You should probably get to know the race through some training matches before you start thinking of builds, or perhaps some games against very easy/easy PC. A basic grasp of hotkeys is necessary for a good gameplay, so you should get used to at least making drones and lings or scvs and marines or whatever you are going for as fast as possible. I recommend going though the single player campaign as well as it is excellent, and shows you most of the units in the game (as well as some not in multi).

As far as race choice goes, going for a protoss 4-gate build will probably beeline you up to platinum or even diamond pretty fast if you can pull it off, as most players are unable to stand against that kind of pressure. Zerg will teach you to react to enemy movements and scout pretty well - if you're not expecting air harass as zerg, you are dead, dead, dead. Terran gives you a fast intro to micro, as the marine/marauder/medivac ball is heavily reliant on you using stims properly. I like zerg since you have fewer hotkeys to take care of since the hatches makes everything.

If you get through the training league and still want to play, I recommend watching replays - Husky or HDStarcraft if you simply want to watch the pros, or Day9 if you want some pretty smart analysis of the games. He's fairly fun too.


Builds for zerg are:

all: 9-overlord or 10-overlord (pretty much the same, the extractor trick where you start building two extractors and cancel them again so you can get 12 drones before overlord isn't worth it at lower levels)

expansion heavy: 15 hatch, 14/15 pool (scout, scout, scout! if an early push is coming, you'll need spine crawlers), then gas.

offensive: 14 pool, 13 gas, banelings nest a bit later.


You'll probably always need zergling speed as fast as possible, as that allows your zerglings to surround enemy armies and kill them. use your first 100 gas from one extractor for that. Later on you can pull the drones of gas after 100 unless you want to build roaches or banelings, and put them back on later.

Building two or four zerglings right as your pool is finished is recommended, as that allows you to get onto the watchtowers and scout the enemy front, to see whenever he moves out.

Always get at least one queen per expansion, and try to inject larva as often as you can, even if that's hard. Hotkey the hatches and queens to make that easier.

Link your bases up though creep tumors - early on you can spend whatever's left after you forget some injections on making one, later on you'll want an extra queen (which is okay anyways, as it's the only early game air defense you have.

That's all I can think off. Send me a PM if you want some training games.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #367 on: 16 Feb 2011, 13:56 »

I personally find Terran a boring race, they only have so many unit comps that really work (although guys like iEchoic apparently do a bunch of weird shit and make it work on ladder). You'll never play a game without marines and tanks though, and the playstyle is just boring to me, although highly effective.

Protoss are fun, and can be very strong early and late game. They tend to suffer a little midgame when Terran are strongest with the marine/tank death march incoming, or zergs pushing with roach/hydra or mut harrassing. Early game, as Snalin said, 4gate pressure can be hard to stop, and force fields are goddamn ridiculous. Late game, if you can remember to keep expanding and adding on gateways etc, your macro can be extremely potent, and nothing beats a late-game, upgraded protoss deathball of colossi/templar/voidrays/chargelots etc. The only downside to protoss is that unless you win quick, you pretty much have to get colossi at some point in the game. Being so heavily reliant on 1 expensive tech unit is kind of a pain.

Zerg are (in my opinion) probably the hardest race right now, just because of the relative fragility of all their units, and the complete reliance on insane macro/expansion. If you want to macro all the time, zerg is your race. I honestly find them the most fun, but they are definitely challenging. Expect to lose a lot to 4gate rushes and terran contains until you can figure out how to defend and push out against early pressure. There really is nothing better than fungal growth'ing a massed up bio ball then rolling banelings/ultralisks through it though, its just very very satisfying. At the end of a zerg win, you can pretty much always say you earned it.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #368 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:45 »

On Zerg fragility: I once ended up losing a ridiculous number of hydralisks because I sneezed twice when I should have been using that second or two to get into the perfect spot for a concave. Zerg and early game terran almost make me wish Faster wasn't the default ladder speed sometimes.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #369 on: 16 Feb 2011, 17:56 »

Man guys, this game is too nerdy for me. Too much strategy in my RTS.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #370 on: 16 Feb 2011, 21:16 »

Thank you, Snalin, for that post.  Okay, well I've done a little more research and played a few practice games against a very easy comp.  I do see how Zerg are quite a macro race now.  Reliant on scouting and knowing what you're opponent is doing and then suddenly coming up with a massive army when needed to overwhelm the opponent.  But now I have a general question regarding hotkeys.

I like the default grid setup "QWERT" etc. because that's what I got used to in WC3 (though it was 4 columns, QWER), however I can't get used to attack on my units being "T"  In both SC and WC3, attack was "A"  It's like the only muscle memory that has stuck as far as letter to command (instead of keyboard location to UI location).  Is there a way to actually move the attack button so that it's in the second row, first button?  For pretty much everything I think I can get used to thinking in terms of position on the UI to position on the keyboard.  But it's petty uncomfortable to have to spam "T" for attack.  Any suggestions here, if moving the actual button is not an option?
« Last Edit: 16 Feb 2011, 21:18 by Odal »
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #371 on: 16 Feb 2011, 22:01 »

My attack is 'A'?
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #372 on: 17 Feb 2011, 02:18 »

My attack is 'A'?
That's because you're using the standard setup probably, not the grid setup.  I don't want to have to remember every hotkey in the game, so I like the grid setup.  It matches your UI to your keyboard... what I mean is:

QWERT
ASDFG
ZXCVB

I no longer have to remember the keybinds, so thought process is not "What was that keybind again?" and fumbling around with the mouse to figure it out.  It's, for example, "Okay, 3rd row, 2nd button from the left, Push X"  and eventually it'll just be muscle memory.

I don't simply want to change the attack to "A", I want to change where it is located on the UI so that it'll be in the position as "A" without having to modify my grid setup.
« Last Edit: 17 Feb 2011, 02:57 by Odal »
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #373 on: 17 Feb 2011, 02:22 »

You can do custom keybinds, it's just hidden deep within weird menus. It came in a pretty recent update.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #374 on: 18 Feb 2011, 00:40 »

I haven't been able to figure out how.  I mean it's annoying to me that every units' attack button is in the upper right button when hardly any units have an ability in the second row first slot.  And none of the zerg units do AFAIK.

If that doesn't work, I may have to manually change everything in the standard setup to be just like the grid setup, except for the attack button being A.  It might not be too bad, though I imagine it'll take a while to actually set up :P
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #375 on: 12 Mar 2011, 13:21 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJbAT1wzS8U

Also does anyone want to play a few rounds tonight?
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #376 on: 12 Mar 2011, 14:47 »

That's one of the best trailer mash-up videos I've seen.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #377 on: 31 May 2011, 05:30 »

So, for anyone who actually still cares about the story (like me!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZMj1NqirH0

and these seem to look like real early alpha screenshots.


I'm pretty excite for Heart of the Swarm.
Anyone totally not surprised by Kerrigan's new rasta hairdo?  :mrgreen:
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #378 on: 31 May 2011, 07:40 »

Looks awesome. Can't see any new units yet, but I hope there will be some. There's the snow things, but they look more like mobs (WC3-style), but you never know.
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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #379 on: 31 May 2011, 08:40 »

Looks awesome. Can't see any new units yet, but I hope there will be some. There's the snow things, but they look more like mobs (WC3-style), but you never know.
one of the first pictures looks like they have a lurker. also some extra prickly looking zerglings.

also bam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAw4PcuLgo&feature=player_embedded
« Last Edit: 31 May 2011, 09:08 by LeeC »
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #380 on: 31 May 2011, 14:50 »

iiiiiiiii
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LeeC

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #381 on: 20 Jan 2013, 17:02 »

Every frakken time!
anywho HotS is slated for 3/12/2013  I was never really a zergy player but we'll see what happens.
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You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it. - M. Gustave

Valdís

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #382 on: 18 Jun 2013, 12:51 »

Reinstalled SC2 after some chatting with a friend (started with him mentioning he thinks HerO is cute, watching the WCS. <_< ), so might as well throw in my BattleTag here in case anyone wants to bully an utterly incompetent newbie sometime later. Still on the Wings of Liberty campaign, though. :-)

Valdís#2121
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ev4n

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #383 on: 25 Jul 2013, 07:29 »

Did not buy HoS, but oh man am I bad at this game.
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Valdís

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #384 on: 25 Jul 2013, 18:21 »

I'm playing HotS now instead of WoL since a bit back. The Mothership Core is helping me out a lot with early Terran pushes, since I like early expanding. Reliably and safely beating the AI of any race at Harder now, at least. Should start going up another step of difficulty to see if it gives me trouble.

Yay, learning!
« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2013, 18:31 by Valdís »
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Now the sayings of the High One are uttered in the hall
for the weal of men, for the woe of Jötuns,
Hail, thou who hast spoken! Hail, thou that knowest!
Hail, ye that have hearkened! Use, thou who hast learned!

kyomi

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #385 on: 26 Jul 2013, 05:32 »

Did not buy HoS, but oh man am I bad at this game.

<Scruffy> Second </>

It's a fun game.. but I can never get anywhere since everyone always kills me in the first 1 minute :(
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snalin

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #386 on: 22 Jan 2014, 02:04 »

Yo bros and brodettes, I heard you like games, so heres like thousands for free:

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ev4n

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #387 on: 30 May 2014, 07:28 »

I am back to playing this game, oddly, and finding myself wishing I had played it more earlier.  I'm still bad, but I love the challenges it presents.
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ev4n

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Re: Starcraft 2
« Reply #388 on: 16 Jul 2014, 06:31 »

Trying out ladder, and every single thing I"m seeing is new to me.  Such a learning curve.  :(
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