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Poll

Marigold is:

So clueless about people we can't tell what she's like
- 51 (11.2%)
Deep down she's a sweetheart
- 66 (14.5%)
Basically indifferent to the needs, desires and rights of others
- 25 (5.5%)
Trying to be good but not sure how
- 70 (15.4%)
Good, but not yet able to act on it
- 35 (7.7%)
A good person but only within her comfort zone
- 51 (11.2%)
She can't respect others when she doesn't respect herself
- 39 (8.6%)
It's too early to tell
- 34 (7.5%)
At least she's less creepy than early Hannelore
- 37 (8.1%)
42
- 34 (7.5%)
Portmanteau portrait porridge
- 12 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 135


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Author Topic: What is Marigold's fundamental character?  (Read 75499 times)

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What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« on: 03 Jun 2010, 11:33 »

Continuing the discussion from the weekly comic thread.

There must be a reason Angus likes her, unless he's just one of those people who are compassionate toward everyone.
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Prince of Space

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #1 on: 03 Jun 2010, 13:00 »

Continuing the discussion from the weekly comic thread.

There must be a reason Angus likes her, unless he's just one of those people who are compassionate toward everyone.

Awesome! I'm glad this might be talked about a little more.  Honestly, I feel like Marigold hasn't been given a chance to show much of her character yet.  As of now, we've seen her game, putter about, stammer, read, cry, nosebleed, and be forward with Angus(not necessarily in that order).   I can't figure out if she's so introverted that she hasn't had a chance to show that she can actually be a friend...or if she's just not very thoughtful in the first place.  It's not like she doesn't get out of the apartment (the mini-con) and it's not like she's not brave enough to interact with others.  Ahh, now I'm just rambling.

My last thought on the matter is: let's see more of her before we brand her anything for certain.
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Tuitsuro

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #2 on: 03 Jun 2010, 13:47 »

Why do people adopt poodles?  They're angry little shits that'll tear up pretty much anything put in front of them, yet they're still a pretty popular breed. 

I think Angus just feels sorry for Marigold and the crap she went through in high school.  I think he thinks of himself as a modern-day, chivalrous knight. 
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Lost Coastlines

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #3 on: 03 Jun 2010, 15:27 »

She's been the victim in her own mind for so long that she probably doesn't question whether or not she's a good person or how a good person would act in a given situation.  She knows what she wants and has made passive-aggressive and, when drunk, aggressive attempts at getting those things, but we have yet to see a situation in which she is curious about the feelings of others.

Marigold really bothered me in this one: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1560
Love Faye, hate her, or barely know her, that's a pretty terrible thing to happen to someone.  I'd think most people would react with some shock before trying to console Angus, but she jumps straight to kissing his ass without batting an eye.  That kind of behavior doesn't come from a lack of social interaction.  It's just creepy.

She's had a healthier social life handed to her out of pity and aside from a couple of outbursts from Hannelore and Angus, no one is telling her that trying to elicit more attention from sympathy is manipulative.  So in that respect, it's not her fault.  On the other hand, she's not a child and many of her faults are inexcusable even given her isolated past.
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Mr_Rose

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #4 on: 03 Jun 2010, 15:50 »

Why do people adopt poodles?  They're angry little shits that'll tear up pretty much anything put in front of them, yet they're still a pretty popular breed.
You mean miniature poodles, right?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #5 on: 03 Jun 2010, 16:42 »

Love Faye, hate her, or barely know her, that's a pretty terrible thing to happen to someone.  I'd think most people would react with some shock before trying to console Angus, but she jumps straight to kissing his ass without batting an eye.  That kind of behavior doesn't come from a lack of social interaction.  It's just creepy.

Overall, he's *not* an insensitive asshole, is he?  I've had friends say to themselves 'geezus, I'm such a bitch' or 'god I'm so stupid' and immediately either asked what was wrong or discounted that they were whatever they were calling themselves...*then* asked what was wrong.    I think it's a natural reaction to discount someone's self deprecation when you yourself know that they're being overly dramatic.

I actually disliked Angus a little on that comic.

I really am curious as to why he thinks she's SO great though (as he put it the other day).  Either he was laying it on thick so that she'd come out of her shell and feel better about herself, or he really admires her for some reason.  Which, as of yet, we have no backstory for (and in fact, have more evidence against, as seen in that comic you just cited). :\ 
« Last Edit: 03 Jun 2010, 16:45 by Prince of Space »
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Lost Coastlines

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #6 on: 03 Jun 2010, 16:57 »

Overall, he's *not* an insensitive asshole, is he?  I've had friends say to themselves 'geezus, I'm such a bitch' or 'god I'm so stupid' and immediately either asked what was wrong or discounted that they were whatever they were calling themselves...*then* asked what was wrong.    I think it's a natural reaction to discount someone's self deprecation when you yourself know that they're being overly dramatic.

I actually disliked Angus a little on that comic.

Yeah I wasn't a big fan of him in that one, either.

I agree it's a natural reaction to rebuff self-depreciation, but I think it's also a natural reaction to express shock when you learn that something traumatic happened, especially to someone you know.  It would seem more normal if she had said "that's terrible" or "how awful" or something like that after Angus told her about Faye.  Yet the only concern she had was for the object of her affection.  It doesn't seem like it was a conscious decision to react that way, and that's why I felt it was creepy.
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jwhouk

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #7 on: 03 Jun 2010, 17:48 »

I vote number one with a one-word addendum - "yet."
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #8 on: 03 Jun 2010, 19:41 »

  It would seem more normal if she had said "that's terrible" or "how awful" or something like that after Angus told her about Faye.  Yet the only concern she had was for the object of her affection.  It doesn't seem like it was a conscious decision to react that way, and that's why I felt it was creepy.

Yeah, I see what you mean. 
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #9 on: 03 Jun 2010, 19:49 »

I think Marigold is somewhat disconnected socially.

She may be one of those individuals that was naturally shy when younger, which may have led to her becoming a shut-in like she was when we first met her.  I think it's going to be interesting to see her drawn out (pun intended) socially and personality wise now that she has connected to our favourite group.

Whether she becomes a better person because of it or becomes a terror only time will tell.
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IanClark

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #10 on: 04 Jun 2010, 01:12 »

Marigold reminds me of driving. Seriously. There's a small town about an hour and a half North of me that I'd never seen until a few months ago, but for some reason it always seemed special whenever I saw the road signs. Finally, I drove there. I walked into a corner store so mesmerized by the surreality of it all that I failed to notice I was treating everyone inside like some kind of fantasy creature. I don't think they noticed, but at that moment I was being obscenely self-involved and kind of insulting in a roundabout way. Oddly enough, it turned out the place held special meaning to me from forgotten memories of my childhood, and that was why it seemed so profoundly mystical.

Marigold is the same way. Hanners made an observatory remark that Marigold was pretty, and Angus seconded it. To Marigold, this is the re-awakening of feelings like self-worth and desire. Suddenly, she wants a boyfriend, she wants a social life, and all these things are actually within her grasp enough to turn them into real goals. Like I was in Kaladar (the town I mentioned above), so is she in her own feelings. She doesn't realize, and in fact for the most part can't realize when she's acting like a tool.

Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions. She had little reservation about letting a near-stranger borrow at least $200 worth of manga, she's made affectionate jokes about Hannelore on her Twitter (or at least I think it's affectionate, I don't know Mass Effect) and as evidenced by the beginning of this strip, she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?). Here she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong), and here she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora, as she does here.

The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.
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Prince of Space

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #11 on: 04 Jun 2010, 06:31 »

l.
The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.

Thanks for those links, Ian.  It's easy to forget certain strips with other strips leave such a bad taste in my mouth.  I look forward to seeing Marigold get more chances to show that side.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #12 on: 04 Jun 2010, 08:23 »

Please remember, Angus says she's great.  He's also living with her, and knows her better than any of us

Hell, people are still arguing about what kind of person Angus is, and we know him about ten times better than we know Marigold at this point! 

Although I do somewhat think he's using the "No, you're great" to defuse the wallowing-in-self-pity bomb that's about to go off when she starts in that direction.  Sort of the old "I'm OK, you're OK" psychology that led to all the little kids getting end-of-season trophies every year, whether the team ever won or not...
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #13 on: 04 Jun 2010, 09:56 »

Angus seems to be Jeph's most complex character. As you said, it's hard to know how to take what he says.

He may just be trying to spare her feelings. I hope eventually she catches on and yells "Damn it, I am a Marigold, not some delicate flower!" and everyone else in the room just looks at each other.
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Lost Coastlines

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #14 on: 04 Jun 2010, 13:47 »

He may just be trying to spare her feelings. I hope eventually she catches on and yells "Damn it, I am a Marigold, not some delicate flower!" and everyone else in the room just looks at each other.

That would be nice, but I think it would be out of character right now.  As she said, "That's all I really want, though.  Somebody to be nice to me, and pay attention, and, y'know . . ."  She's going to take what she can get.  If she does press him about why she's so great, I fear it will only be to get some more specific compliments.
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TAG

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #15 on: 06 Jun 2010, 23:12 »

Sorry for the late jump in, normally only read the WCT if that.  Bored on a train though :P

Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions. She had little reservation about letting a near-stranger borrow at least $200 worth of manga,

Oh yeah, someone who protects her manga like this is lending manga to someone who has a proven record directly to Marigod of treating those exact specific manga like this.  My heart aches at her generosity.  Next thing you know, she'll loan her 20 year old car to an automechanic!

Plus, as we've no evidence of her or Hanners ever knowing Japanese (much less both of them), these are not high rarity imports but rather relatively cheap subs / fansubs.  So Marigold lent someone a book, someone likely to return it in better condition than when it was lent.  Whoopie.

Quote
as evidenced by the beginning of this strip, she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?).
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=500
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=511
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1079
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1089 (sorta)
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1342 (sorta)
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1343

etc.  I wouldn't put it past her to drunkenly discuss it on her own volition... I would find the concept of Marigold -- who has never really been introduced to Sven -- bringing it up more unlikely.


Quote
Here she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong)
She seems just as mortified by the concept and immediately co-opted it into self pity.  Also this proves that she at least has some repetoir with her raid guild which means she's not the social six year old people are treating her as.

Quote
and here she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora, as she does here.
Nonspecific apologies to a blatantly (perhaps irrationally, if Marigold didn't have a foot so far down her mouth she was autofellating) mad person.

Quote
The only two areas in which she's been really selfish are her pursuit of Angus and her somewhat self-absorbed constant self-deprecation, and those both come with the territory. Once she sorts herself out, I think we'll discover that she actually does care.

How about her treatment of Momo, which includes her apathy at fixing Momo's friend (Pintsize fix) and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility)?

Anyway, she's had something like 25 years to sort herself out.  WoW is a social game and she seems to excel at it, with evidence that she's not just camwhoring it out to get by.  Hanners has massive OCD and was literally raised in a space station and is more socially adjusted.  Faye witnessed her dad's suicide and survived her own possible suicide attempt and is more socially adjusted.

Anyway, as should be clear, I have no interest in Marigold other than what better characters reveal about themselves when dealing with her.  Jeph seems fixated on her so I'm sure we'll see her "get better", but if I were any one of the QC universe people I would not be making anywhere near the effort to include her that every single one of them is.  But for now she's just so... boring.  She exists basically to get better, and I don't find that compelling at all.  She's a self-centered jerk.
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jwhouk

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #16 on: 06 Jun 2010, 23:34 »

And yet... we have an entire thread on her.

I'd say she's a character "under construction" right now.
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TAG

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #17 on: 06 Jun 2010, 23:41 »

And yet... we have an entire thread on her.

I'd say she's a character "under construction" right now.

Well, she's been around for more than 250 strips now, and one could reasonably argue that she's been one of the two major focuses (Angus being the other, and half of his strips are Marigold-appeasing centric).  So far she seems to have constructed from a character we know nothing about to one I would rather know nothing about :P

Edit: Gah I didn't realize she's been around for more than a year... how much more leeway can y'all give her?
« Last Edit: 07 Jun 2010, 00:09 by TAG »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #18 on: 07 Jun 2010, 01:16 »

... and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility)?

Looking at Momo-tan's dialog in the preceding strips, does it really sound to you as if she was doing something for Marigirl as opposed to being selfishly engrossed? Someone with a social protocol database isn't going to say "Meh. Later." by accident if she's doing someone a favor.

Magical Love Gentlemen may have been an import. Marigold is known to buy top of the line imported Japanese goods (Momo is a high end model!). Even if she doesn't know enough Japanese to follow anime, she has an AnthroPC who can translate.

For comparison and perspective, how long had Faye been around before giving clear evidence of kindness or caring about someone else's feelings? (Understandable if you don't want to wait for Marigold *that* long). (And duly noted that you didn't cite Faye as an example of a good character, just one who is relatively better adjusted despite severe trauma (which we can't compare to Marigirl's because we don't know her past. Self-esteem problems that bad suggest severe early childhood abuse)).

Marigold needs Raven for a friend.

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IanClark

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #19 on: 07 Jun 2010, 01:33 »

Quote
Oh yeah, someone who protects her manga like this is lending manga to someone who has a proven record directly to Marigod of treating those exact specific manga like this.  My heart aches at her generosity.  Next thing you know, she'll loan her 20 year old car to an automechanic!

There is no fixing a book. Page is torn, it's going to stay torn. Spine is fucked up, probably going to stay fucked up. Stain on the cover? Probably not going to get it out without damaging the pages below. Maybe Marigold leant her the manga as some sort of ploy to get her to replace all the manga. Even though only a few hours before she was threatening to throw out everything she owned and give nothing in return. But maybe Marigold knew that wasn't what Hannelore was really like, because maybe she's been spying on her since infancy.

Quote
Plus, as we've no evidence of her or Hanners ever knowing Japanese (much less both of them), these are not high rarity imports but rather relatively cheap subs / fansubs.

Manga runs at at least $10 per volume in a bookstore, and books are notoriously low-profit, meaning even the cheapest fansub would run maybe a buck cheaper or else whoever did it would lose money hand over fist. There seems to be at least 20 volumes of it, so we're talking $180 at the very cheapest. I'm not saying she's Mother Theresa, but it can't be denied that lending that much of anything to someone you barely know is an altruistic act. And the fact that she did it basically instinctually means it wasn't forced, and it wasn't part of some ploy for attention or admiration, it was just her.

Quote
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=500
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=511

I'd call the first 499 strips of the series "prompting", and the fact that I just wrote out "499" instead of, like, 205 or 197 indicates that it is, in fact, that hard to get Faye to open up.

Quote
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1079

"I have issues pushing my boundaries" isn't your personal life, it's just your personality. She didn't go into why, or even what those boundaries were (although she inferred pretty badly on the latter).

Quote
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1089 (sorta)

Being in a therapist's office is about the definition of prompting.

Quote
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1342 (sorta)

She blurted out a bunch of obscenities, none of which actually indicated why she was pissed off. Four hours ago one of my best friends was sitting in the back of my car, and he yelled at a passing couple that they looked nice. Even I couldn't read subtext from that and he's one of my best friends.

Quote
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1343

Dora is both her best friend and Sven's sister. It was going to come up eventually. Again, prompting.

I don't think it's exactly in Faye's character to start a conversation with "So here's the story of my last boyfriend." I wouldn't venture a guess as to how it came up, but I'd guess Marigold prompted it in some indirect way.

Quote
She seems just as mortified by the concept and immediately co-opted it into self pity.

She actually reacted with anger, not mortification, and in the next strip Hannelore is shown literally curled up in fear as Marigold stammers out to try to rectify the situation. And she didn't co-opt anything, Hanners literally said "How about you?"

Quote
Also this proves that she at least has some repetoir with her raid guild which means she's not the social six year old people are treating her as.

As far as I can tell, to succeed at WoW, you need to be one of two things: someone with good social skills, or someone who spends a lot of time playing. Dale appears to be the first, Marigold is decidedly the second. Of all the times we've seen her playing, only in one is she hooked up to a mic, and she spends the whole time talking to Hanners, not anyone else until the end. The fact that someone else in her guild felt comfortable enough to make a joke about her means either a) she has a good rapport with her fellow players or b) they're too socially awkward themselves to know it's not really cool. Given that her guild-mates are apparently easily impressed by camwhores, and used the phrase "lez out", money's on the second one.

Quote
How about her treatment of Momo, which includes her apathy at fixing Momo's friend (Pintsize fix)

But she did it.

Quote
and her demand that Momo give up on a raid to indulge Marigold's self interest (a raid Momo was doing specifically to free Marigold from that responsibility)?

As Jeph himself said in the newspost, the joke is supposed to be that she's trying to make Momo act sociably when she can't take her own advice. Not trying to be the center of attention, trying to make Momo act sociably.

Quote
Anyway, she's had something like 25 years to sort herself out.

Well the period up until she graduated college was the period she's having to sort herself out from, so it's more like four at best. And apparently according to her Twitter people yell at her on the street. People generally don't sort themselves out until they even see a reason to. Enter the QC cast.

Quote
WoW is a social game and she seems to excel at it

Seriously, the most socially awkward human being I know excels at WoW. This whole "Marigold as perfectly capable sociopath" explanation only works if you've never dealt with a sociopath before. I've dated one, and been involved in the lives of many others. They will seek out what they want immediately and not stop until they get it, no matter who they hurt. She wouldn't be pursuing Angus recently, she'd have been pursuing him for years, and she'd probably have gotten him by now. She would not have been harassed in school, because the first couple people to fuck with her would've ended up with severe internal bleeding one way or another.

All the evidence points to her having good intentions, but neither the skills or the self-awareness to know how to use them, or recognize when she's failing at it horribly. I'll admit sometimes as a character she gets on my nerves, but being the amateur psychoanalyst I am, I can't help but see someone ultimately worthy.
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Lost Coastlines

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #20 on: 07 Jun 2010, 01:51 »

Looking at Momo-tan's dialog in the preceding strips, does it really sound to you as if she was doing something for Marigirl as opposed to being selfishly engrossed? Someone with a social protocol database isn't going to say "Meh. Later." by accident if she's doing someone a favor.

Magical Love Gentlemen may have been an import. Marigold is known to buy top of the line imported Japanese goods (Momo is a high end model!). Even if she doesn't know enough Japanese to follow anime, she has an AnthroPC who can translate.

It started out as a favor which later turned into an enjoyable activity for Momo.  This is moot, as Momo's selfish action does not justify Marigold's aggressive behavior (note that she was drunk at this time, as she was when she jumped Angus - more aggressive behavior). 

The cost of the anime is another moot point.  As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions.  This and the fact she left her wallet at COD make me wonder if money is not an issue to her.  This may be because she works for her father.  We don't really know how much she is paid or how much work she really does, but she did get defensive about it.  It would not be a huge leap of logic to assume she is compensated above and beyond what she would get from another employer for the same work.  Good for her, but it does mean that anything that can be easily replaced is of less value to her (thus excluding Momo and her computer).

Like I said before, I think Marigold has seen herself as a victim for so long that she does not consider whether or not she is a good person.  That requires a level of self-reflection of which she is either not capable or in which she subconsciously chooses not to engage.  Even with Angus's rejection, she's been socially lucky since her introduction to the strip.  She has not seen that being good to other people means that they'll be good to you since they're all going out of their way to be nice to her.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #21 on: 07 Jun 2010, 01:54 »

Blu ?

I dunno havnt not any idea.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #22 on: 07 Jun 2010, 03:25 »

As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions. 

She is highly protective of them. The third thing she ever said in the strip was, to the people entering her room, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". Her first ever dialog balloon ended with "And what are you doing with Momo-tan?"
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #23 on: 07 Jun 2010, 03:29 »

All I notice in the last week or so of comics is that Marigold's eyes have been darting around in every panel. I know that look well: nervous, worried, trying to take it all in so she doesn't make any mistakes...

...and now, she's blindsided by Tai's simple comment.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #24 on: 07 Jun 2010, 03:36 »

As TAG noted, Marigold isn't too careful with her anime, or many of her other possessions. 

She is highly protective of them. The third thing she ever said in the strip was, to the people entering her room, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". Her first ever dialog balloon ended with "And what are you doing with Momo-tan?"

I noted the exception with Momo since she is not replaceable, assuming AntroPCs are true AI.  Not wanting strangers (at that point) to touch her stuff wasn't necessarily a sign of how much she values said stuff, but likely of paranoia and suspicion.  She was, after all, leaving her things around to collect rat droppings.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #25 on: 07 Jun 2010, 22:16 »

Critics of Purplepants adduce much evidence that she's self-centered.

This would, however, hardly distinguish her from most of the rest of the cast.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #26 on: 08 Jun 2010, 01:25 »

Human nature is inherently self-centered. We see through our own eyes, we feel our own feelings, we are the center of our own universes. The question is, to what level is it acceptable? I draw that line at where you're no longer able to be rationally altruistic and/or have no sense of empathy. If you're in a bar, and your friends all decide on a pitcher but don't know what kind, you're going to vote for your favourite beer, because you're self-centered. But you're going to abide by the group decision because you see that the greater good is maximized that way (rational altruism).

Take Tai for example. Generally Tai is all about Tai, be it her love life or her desire to get her clit pierced. She's indicated she's not above blackmailing friends and employees with naked photos. However, she feels genuine sympathy for Hanners' condition, and guilt for blurting out the truth about Angus and Faye, and these things are a constant pattern. So, self-centered or not, I'd call her a good person.

For Marigold, I'd chalk it mostly up to not looking at the whole equation. She really very much wants Angus, but it hasn't occurred to her that Angus isn't going to be happy in a relationship with her. I'd predict this current arc to end with Marigold confronting Angus, but Angus turning it back on her and saying that he has his own feeling and interests and she has no right to expect him to come to her eventually. Then Marigold will storm off but eventually realize he's right. Unless of course she's a sociopath, but I'm not going to dispute that point of view any more because it cuts way too close to the bone. In any case, no. No she's not.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #27 on: 08 Jun 2010, 06:28 »

Personally, I think Marigold has developed plenty. It's not because she isn't developing in to what we think she should be, that it's bad.


Marigold is who she is because of what she has experienced, just like everyone else. You can't expect her to come to a viewpoint of someone else, when that other person came to it by experiencing other things than her.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it if Marigold gold played WoW for however long this comic will last. Or spend long periods of time in her room, or whatever.

I don't want to see her change forcibly, just because I might not agree with some things she does. And I also wouldn't think it a good thing if people bothered her to do so.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #28 on: 08 Jun 2010, 12:21 »

Unless of course she's a sociopath
The odds are very much against it in general, because Jeph almost never does sociopaths. Ms. Chatham is the only one I can think of.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #29 on: 08 Jun 2010, 14:56 »

This would, however, hardly distinguish her from pretty much any life form in the history of ever.

FYP.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #30 on: 08 Jun 2010, 15:04 »

Also, TAG, if you're gonna make a post that long it'd be helpful if it made a lick of sense. Just thinking out loud here. Lending something to someone who did you a good turn because you're grateful and a bit lonely hits me as just a pinch more likely than lending something to someone on the off chance that they moonlight as a book binder.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #31 on: 08 Jun 2010, 17:13 »

I see at least two questions in this thread.
First question: What is Marigold really like?
My answer: She is introverted, friendly and honest.
She usually does not start conversations, but she responds, tries to be polite and does not try to lie (except situations where she consideres truth to be not polite, as in "I like bourbon"). Of course, her social skills are heavily underdeveloped (apparently the Magical Love Gentleman is not as realistic as QC), so she sometimes neglects or even hurts other people (unintentionally), but she is trying to be better.  She is not a nicest person right now, but she shows some potential.

Second question: Why Angus says she is SO great?
My answer: He means it. She is improving and she does not have a single characteristic similar to his former girlfriend's. Marigold is not belittling, not abusive, not intentionally guilt-tripping. Marigold has probably never disrespected him. Of course, Marigold is too little witty and too much naive for him to feel attracted, but he can imagine some other guy being perfectly happy with Marigold (in a few years).
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #32 on: 08 Jun 2010, 17:42 »

Also, TAG, if you're gonna make a post that long it'd be helpful if it made a lick of sense. Just thinking out loud here. Lending something to someone who did you a good turn because you're grateful and a bit lonely hits me as just a pinch more likely than lending something to someone on the off chance that they moonlight as a book binder.

I was being pretty obviously facetious* with that comment.  The point was she was dwelling in rat droppings and lent books to someone who actually respected them despite them not being her own.  It's someone with little regard for her own stuff lending that stuff to someone with a near 0 probability of actually harming it, and she's seen that first hand.

Hell, college kids lending a textbook to a classmate are taking a financial risk orders of magnitude greater (now those are expensive).  And that happens all the time.

*Or so I thought anyway... you're the second person to somehow take it literally...
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #33 on: 08 Jun 2010, 18:48 »

That's because your logic is hella circuitous and your writing style isn't really making it any clearer.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #34 on: 08 Jun 2010, 18:57 »

That's because your logic is hella circuitous and your writing style isn't really making it any clearer.

What is circuitous about not praising someone who treats her belongings like crap lending out those belongings to someone who previously took a great deal of time and effort to not treat those belongings like crap?

Or not praising her for totally disrespecting the feelings and desires of Momo and Angus, or only doing Marigold things with Hanners (that covers all 3 friends).

Or not respecting her being completely disgusting toward Dale and Angus (emotional blackmail)?

Her most selfless act was lending out those manga.  The point was that lending rat-pooped manga to an OCD neatfreak is not exactly a noble sacrifice.  She's been here more than a year.  She's made some personal progress... for her.. but she hasn't done much of anything noteworthy, much less praiseworthy.  The best example anyone has managed to dredge up is a farce.
« Last Edit: 08 Jun 2010, 19:16 by TAG »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #35 on: 08 Jun 2010, 20:10 »

It's circuitous when you allude to everything via sarcasm and indirect reference over 3/4s of an error filled page (and that's on my wide screen). You just demonstrated that you could have said it in a third of the space.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #36 on: 08 Jun 2010, 20:20 »

It's circuitous when you allude to everything via sarcasm and indirect reference over 3/4s of an error filled page (and that's on my wide screen). You just demonstrated that you could have said it in a third of the space.

Only without responding to relevant quotes or with examples, it's the formatting and context that takes up space really.

To be fair to myself, I did a more concise version in the WCT that spawned this thread.

Edit: also to be fair I spend a lot of time on trains these days which means time is a non factor ;P
« Last Edit: 08 Jun 2010, 21:09 by TAG »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #37 on: 09 Jun 2010, 00:02 »

I can't help but marvel at the trainwreck this argument's become (for want of a better expression, sorry). I never said Marigold was above average or exceptionally generous or mindblowingly kind or anything of the sort. What I'm trying to say is that Marigold's just at least okay. No more, but more to the point no less.

Quote
What is circuitous about not praising someone who treats her belongings like crap lending out those belongings to someone who previously took a great deal of time and effort to not treat those belongings like crap?

What is circuitous about it is that anyone else would look at it and go "yeah, that was nice of her" and move on, not try to come up with reasons why it doesn't really count. It's not a big deal and in the strip it wasn't made a big deal, but it counts for something, mostly because she didn't make a big deal out of it. Hannelore showed herself the type of person who takes good care of things, but then threatened to throw all her stuff out. She apologized, and she and Martin explained it with "Sorry, I've just got a serious mental condition." The idea that Marigold didn't take a risk from her own perspective is ridiculous.

Quote
Or not praising her for totally disrespecting the feelings and desires of Momo and Angus,

Once again, she's "disrespected" Momo's feelings once that I can think of, and her main objection wasn't that Momo wasn't paying attention to her, it was that Momo was being rude. This is echoed as true by Momo, Angus and Marigold, and confirmed by Jeph himself. As for Angus, once again it's made pretty clear Marigold probably isn't aware of how horrible she's being. You'd seemingly rather believe she's totally aware, but just kind of a sociopath, which is not just circuitous, it's also misinformed, as Marigold fits none of the criteria for any type of sociopath, not even the self-pity sociopath.

Quote
or only doing Marigold things with Hanners (that covers all 3 friends).

So you'd call going out and drinking a "Marigold thing"? Or if you're going to go the route of "she was forced to" (by the quasi-person she apparently doesn't care about the feelings of, no less), then how about drinking beer? I've been that guy at least twice, and trust me, if you hate beer that much you don't drink it unless you really want to be nice.

Quote
Or not respecting her being completely disgusting toward Dale and Angus (emotional blackmail)?

Hyperbole much? Angus I already covered, and as for Dale, the appropriate response to that situation is "Damn... she takes Warcraft way too seriously." Again, because she's awkward, and in this area a little stupid. Based on Dale's response upon meeting her later, he had a far more appropriate reaction than you did, he laughed it off.

If you still want to dislike Marigold so strongly, you are entitled, but I have to wonder if you actually subject the people in your life to the same set of standards or if you're just trying to make it clear you're one of those "I don't suffer fools" kind of guys. If all your friends do charity work and never self-pity and bake their loved ones brownies then I commend you for sticking to your standards, but I'd have to point out that that makes you the one with no sense of empathy. As a comedian I can't remember the name of once said, "Every group of friends has at least one completely awful one, and if you can't figure out who yours is, it's you."
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #38 on: 09 Jun 2010, 01:02 »

If Marigirl were suddenly blessed with social skills and started being generous, how would we tell?

What does she have to offer the other characters? What is there that a generous Marigold *could* do?

The only Marigold things that the other characters might enjoy having shared are anime, computer repair, and Web design help. She doesn't cook, or play an instrument, or sass-rap, or any of the other things the QC circle shares with each other.

---

Evidence that she's fundamentally good: notice that she hasn't taken the approach of hating the whole world or turning her life into one long revenge.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #39 on: 09 Jun 2010, 03:38 »

Marigold reminds me a little of Raven before QC.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #40 on: 09 Jun 2010, 09:24 »

Ugh the point of the anime thing was that it wasn't a big deal.  Between any other two characters, it would pass uncommented on.  The only reason it was even brought up was because, despite not being a big deal its pretty much the only example of Marigold being particularly selfless.  Whether it "counts" or not is irrelevant, it was a minor event with little else to put up there along side it.  Meanwhile, there's a list a mile long of her being whiny / self-pitying and a bunch of examples of her being a pretty big asshole.  The scales don't balance in her favor.

I'll be brief with the rest:

Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".  Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.  The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.

Lending a  few books is nice even if its low risk, but would be pretty much a nonevent to any other person / character.  Quietly sitting on a couch watching your anime with someone is nice... I guess?  Attending parties is nice... for Marigold.

Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party.  She's got a few examples of ok behavior and a lot of examples of whining and a couple examples of outright atrocious behavior / judgment.  What reason do we have to actually like Marigold?  There only seem to be people defending her because they feel sorry for her or her latest awkward moment relates to some awkward moment in their own past, but are either of those actually legitimately liking her as a character?

And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold, nor would a friendship with someone like her seem particularly appealing.  I wouldn't hate them because I wouldn't associate with them, but Marigold takes up a not-insignificant amount of time in a strip where I enjoy pretty much every other character.  Nice ad hominem though.


*These were the two strips that pushed me to active dislike as opposed to grudging tolerance of a bland / whiny character.

Edit: these do get long.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2010, 09:29 by TAG »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #41 on: 09 Jun 2010, 11:23 »

Hang on, lemme adjust this...
Meanwhile, there's a list a mile long of her being whiny / self-pitying and a bunch of examples of her being a pretty big asshole.  The scales don't balance in her favor....Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party.  She's got a few examples of ok behavior and a lot of examples of whining and a couple examples of outright atrocious behavior / judgment.

Ok. So, we learn here that Marigold, despite apparently being invited out, chooses instead to remain at home and pity party. In fact, she wouldn't have even gone out later if Momo hadn't threatened her. (Marten later admits as much.) And then, of course, yeah, when Marigold tries to tell Momo about what a wonderful time she had, and how everyone was so nice to her, and how she was told she looks pretty, and Momo doesn't care...too bad she totally missed the point. From that point on, I'll admit I've had very little patience for Marigold. Then there's this thought:

Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".  Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.  The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.

This is sort of the crux of it all. The thing that bothers me the most about Marigold is that overall, she isn't that friendly, that nice, or that considerate. Everything ends up being about her. As of right now, I think she's probably the most selfish person in the comic (Tai is probably second now...Faye at third, maybe. Faye's really improved considerably in that matter.) and I'm not convinced we've seen evidence that Marigold is moving away from being selfish. If anything, I feel like she's becoming moreso, and the pity party's are becoming worse and worse (guilting Angus, and now sitting by herself moping after finding out the guy who already told her he doesn't want to date her is interested in another girl.)

This isn't to say that she can indeed grow, and maybe she will, but I think she's getting worse, at least now. This is the sort of behavior I'd expect from a middle schooler, maybe an early high schooler. Then again, I've read that there are just stages every person goes through, and people will go through those stages. Sure, there's general time frames, but Marigold's maybe been stunted (due to bullying?) since middle school, and so now she has to deal with this phase now.


EDIT: I just wanted to offer a counter perspective on this:
Marigold's shown herself to be altruistic and caring on a number of occasions...as evidenced by the beginning of this strip, she shows a genuine interest in the social lives of her new friends (When has Faye ever discussed her personal life, sober or drunk, without some kind of prompting?).
Alternately, Marigold doesn't particularly care about Faye's boyfriend exploits, but instead was hoping to let Faye know that she (Marigold) is into Angus. Or, she was hoping that Faye's boyfriend info would help her on the Angus front. Or even, that if she let Faye know she was into Angus, Faye would leave. I know lots of people who ask a question about someone where the intent is not to hear about what that person says, but rather, to talk about themselves (such people are also not that enjoyable to talk to). Marigold's inconsiderate enough to do this, I think. Also, her rather blithe "Bye Faye" gives some indication that she's glad Faye's leaving, and that she doesn't particularly notice Faye's obvious discomfort. (In fact, there's a lot of interaction between Faye and Angus that Marigold seems to ignore.)

Here she shows that she cares enough for Hanners' feelings to make sure she's not too shook up by her guild-mates' comments (someone please correct me on the term if it's wrong)
Alternately, she's tripping over words to say something, anything, that will keep Hanners from not being her friend anymore. (Not condemning that reaction, btw.) I'm just saying, it could be read that, rather than caring particularly for Hanners' feelings, Marigold is only thinking of herself and what she can say to keep this friend.

here she seems genuinely sorry she inadvertently insulted Dora
Again, rather than being sorry about insulting Dora, this is more of a "pity party" that she likes to have for herself. "I'm sorry I was dumb, I just don't know how to deal with people, don't be mad, it's all my fault, I'm the only one here who can't deal with this," etc. I'm not saying that Marigold didn't feel sorry for her behavior, but I am saying it fits that Marigold is shaming herself and portraying herself as the problem - she felt sorry for her behavior, not necessarily for hurting Dora's feelings.

as she does here
Same thing as above. Apologizing/pity partying about how she's so terrible with all this stuff, and so on. Whether or not Marigold actually believes that about herself, or if she's saying it to get validation is not something I'm sure of.

At any rate, I just wanted to throw those thoughts out there. Marigold may be trying, but I think she's got a looooong way to go yet.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2010, 11:43 by Moxie »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #42 on: 09 Jun 2010, 11:43 »

Ok. So, we learn here that Marigold, despite apparently being invited out, chooses instead to remain at home and pity party. In fact, she wouldn't have even gone out later if Momo hadn't threatened her. (Marten later admits as much.) And then, of course, yeah, when Marigold tries to tell Momo about what a wonderful time she had, and how everyone was so nice to her, and how she was told she looks pretty, and Momo doesn't care...too bad she totally missed the point. From that point on, I'll admit I've had very little patience for Marigold. Then there's this thought:

Having been in that same situation, being invited out once at a time where you don't want to shouldn't mean that you never get invited out again. Without knowing how many times it occurred before Angus gave up, it seems a bit unreasonable. The strip in question doesn't seem to imply that she was invited that particular time, otherwise Angus would've probably phrased his comment differently. The cut at the end just shows that she wishes she could have more from life and doesn't really realise how easy it could be.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #43 on: 09 Jun 2010, 11:51 »

Well, I'd say that Angus at least asked her to go out twice - he lists two reasons she refused. And there's only so many times you wanna invite a person out before you get tired of hearing no. Also, the raid reason is one she tried to use with Marten too - would have worked if Momo hadn't taken charge. And you're right, it doesn't appear as if she was asked to hang out with them this time. I think that was Marten's point a bit - none of them really knew Marigold at this point, which is why it makes sense Angus would be the one to invite her (especially since it seems like he initiated the whole thing by wanting to buy Hanners some drinks), and Angus had already given up on her, as explained to Marten.

As far as the cut at the end - still doesn't give me too much sympathy for her. She did turn the invitations down, and like I said, would have turned down Marten's too if Momo hadn't intervened. For her, it doesn't always seem to be a "don't want to" situation (at least every time) as it is a "scared to" situation. If she won't take the risk, I don't wanna see her sitting around moping about it.

However! Seems to be changing, so good on that, I guess.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #44 on: 09 Jun 2010, 13:01 »

guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
I seem to not understand this particular guilt-trip.
Angus  was the first one to start asking awkward questions.
Marigold was only trying to fing reasons why Angus turned her down.
It was actually an ideal situation for Angus to inform Marigold about Faye.
Marigold just lacks balls to ask as directly as Angus have (done) and she did not mean guilt-trip intentionally.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #45 on: 09 Jun 2010, 13:35 »

guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
I seem to not understand this particular guilt-trip.
Angus  was the first one to start asking awkward questions.
Marigold was only trying to fing reasons why Angus turned her down.
It was actually an ideal situation for Angus to inform Marigold about Faye.
Marigold just lacks balls to ask as directly as Angus have (done) and she did not mean guilt-trip intentionally.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1677

Point blank asks him if guilt tripping him into her would work.

Panels 3, 4, and 6 specifically.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #46 on: 09 Jun 2010, 14:07 »

After being surprised by the suggestion, denying that's what she was doing, and apologizing for creating the impression. Even if her question wasn't meant to be played for laughs, it's more desperate than manipulative. Not that desperate is likable, but it's a different kind of problem.

Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #47 on: 09 Jun 2010, 14:21 »

After being surprised by the suggestion, denying that's what she was doing, and apologizing for creating the impression. Even if her question wasn't meant to be played for laughs, it's more desperate than manipulative. Not that desperate is likable, but it's a different kind of problem.

Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?


You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke.  That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too.  Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.

And that's excluding the "pity me" in panel 2 or the short dress with a lot of cleavage to a casual youtube party.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #48 on: 09 Jun 2010, 15:15 »

You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke.  That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too.  Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.
Considering panel 6: Talking about guilt tripping is something entirely different from an actual guilt tripping. But, looking cute when blushing, that maybe could be used for guilt tripping. Of course, it is again unintentional.

And that's excluding the "pity me" in panel 2 or the short dress with a lot of cleavage to a casual youtube party.
Yes. Marigold has grown from her usual "I am such a loser" attitude and unwashed look. Maybe some time in the future, she could have a power to remind Angus how his not-telling-about-Faye did hurt her, and use this guilt trip to steal some of the attention he has for Faye. But even then, I am not sure she would be willing to do that.

Anyway, subject of this thread is about fundamental character (as opposed to superficial).
Oh, but maybe you were not talking about her fundamental character at all:
Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".  Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile, guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.  The non-stop pity party just makes her boring and unappealing.
Maybe you were just telling us how she pisses you off so much.
Yes, she could do better. (Assuming she has ever been at the housemates party.)
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  • Plantmonster
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #49 on: 09 Jun 2010, 15:32 »

You could maybe maaaaaayyyyybe play off the "Would that work" as a really bad joke.  That's why I included panel 3 where she blatantly is guilt tripping him, too.  Justifying away those two panels is bending way the hell backward to "save" Marigold though.
Considering panel 6: Talking about guilt tripping is something entirely different from an actual guilt tripping. But, looking cute when blushing, that maybe could be used for guilt tripping. Of course, it is again unintentional.
Panel 3: Actual guilt tripping, planned or not.
Panel 6: If not written off as a joke, implicitly condoning the idea that guilt-tripping (emotional blackmail) someone into a relationship or sex is an OK move.

The rest of your responses are sort of only tangentially related to what you quote from me so I don't know how to respond.  Wearing a revealing party dress to casual night in is not growing up (and why would a social shut in have such a thing anyway); she's dressed appropriately to all previous outings so you can't just write it off as her normal social cluelessness.  Plus I was generously excluding it from my point anyway, she already incriminated herself enough before that.  Calling her selfish, rude, whiny, and morally questionable is about her character.  So... yeah?
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2010, 17:46 by TAG »
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