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Poll

Marigold is:

So clueless about people we can't tell what she's like
- 51 (11.2%)
Deep down she's a sweetheart
- 66 (14.5%)
Basically indifferent to the needs, desires and rights of others
- 25 (5.5%)
Trying to be good but not sure how
- 70 (15.4%)
Good, but not yet able to act on it
- 35 (7.7%)
A good person but only within her comfort zone
- 51 (11.2%)
She can't respect others when she doesn't respect herself
- 39 (8.6%)
It's too early to tell
- 34 (7.5%)
At least she's less creepy than early Hannelore
- 37 (8.1%)
42
- 34 (7.5%)
Portmanteau portrait porridge
- 12 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 135


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Author Topic: What is Marigold's fundamental character?  (Read 75501 times)

leahneedsanap

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #100 on: 04 Jan 2011, 15:13 »

I agree, I don't think she is a bad person--just sort of a stunted one.  I feel like she's the kind of person who has endured a lot of bullying in her life, and didn't, like most of us, get the chance to break out of it when she went to college.  Yeah, she's selfish sometimes, but I think the world has kind of taught Marigold that nobody is going to look out for her and anyone pretending to has an ulterior motive, so this real-friend stuff is hard for her.  She is trying to be open, but it is way easier to let other people care about you than it is to learn to be a good friend to others--and up till now, she hasn't had a lot of good examples.  Plus, it's rare that anyone really calls Marigold when they are in need.  Yeah, Hannelore was on the brink of freak-out from taking care of her, but what did Hannelore really need from her at that moment?  She needed her to be grateful and to see that her help was having an impact, but that's kind of a subtle set of communications (their meaning, not their mode--Hanners was pretty much yelling) to interpret when you're not very good at it and you're also it a pretty terrible emotional place yourself.

I think she also does kind of a tough-girl-I-don't-care thing up front to protect herself--when everyone has called you weird forever your choices are to let it hurt or to just commit fully to an alternative identity.  And Marigold is just now figuring out that she doesn't have to do that, that she can like gaming and manga and not abandon everything that comes with participating in social norms like having friends.  So now she's particularly sensitive when someone seemingly goes back on that, like when Angus called her a weird shut-in.  It requires a lot of vulnerability for her to trust that people want to hang out with her not just because there is a punchline coming, because that's been her whole life.  I think underneath it all she is a good person, but she is just not good yet at juggling all the stuff that comes with relationships with other people.  She doesn't have that fluid coordination to take a bunch of things into consideration, she is only looking at one part of the picture at a time.  Ever see someone who doesn't know how to drive try to learn to operate a stick shift?  It's like that.  Eventually, she'll get it.  And maybe the Marten-Dora crisis will be a good doorway for her to start being the supportive friend instead of just always being the one who needs support.
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ZoeB

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #101 on: 04 Jan 2011, 19:44 »

I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name, but which I think is a pretty obvious working hypothesis about what others see from her and the issues that have developed and her school and university experiences.
At a guess... Avoidant Personality Disorder.
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John_Knee

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #102 on: 05 Jan 2011, 09:45 »

People are maybe reading too much into Marigold's character and as an introvert myself, I'd put 99% of her faux pas down to her having limited skills in social interaction and behaviour.
 
When I was growing up as a teen, I'd get home from school, go up to my room, boot up my computer and only leave my room for toilet breaks and to get food. I've almost certainly suffered from computer addiction but was maybe fortunate that at the time 9.8 baud modems ruled the internet. Certainly there was nothing like WoW to get seriously addicted to. Knowing I lacked social skills, I made a point of going to nightclubs with people from school/college in order to learn some social skills but it was a waste of time. If you are introverted and aren't naturally outgoing, social scenes can be uncomfortable. Going to the nightclubs were a waste for me as I never had the skills to chat up the ladies and even if one did catch my eye, the lack of knowing the protocol as to whether or not it would be a one night stand or something more would be expected would be a major concern. I never got on the dance floor due to a lack of knowledge of how to dance (even if it was clear other individuals couldn't either). When I am at work functions, I'll lurk in the corners and only speak to individual people who are not part of a group and that I have regularly interacted with before. I can be talkative one on one, but put me in a group and I shut up. The irony that while in a group, in an attempt to be careful with what you are saying so not to insult anyone, you are more likely to insult people - so sometimes the best thing to do is to say little unless you know the people well. I'd wager the same is with Marigold who appears to be more introverted than what I am. (I tend to score around 1.8 on the introvert-extrovert scale where 1 is introvert and 5 is extrovert)
 
In terms of 'real' friends, Marigold only has Angus, Momo, and her WoW guild (as a single entity rather than any individuals within). It is clear Hanners is likely to get full friend status very soon. Observe that of her friends, only Angus is a full human - Momo is a computer and her WoW guild interacts via a computer. I predict that Dale will become her first real boyfriend in the long term future in a Romeo and Juliet type situation (minus the poison and deaths etc) thanks to the server rivalry. People like Faye and Martin to introverts like Marigold will probably be classified as "friends of Angus" rather than friends in their own right, no matter how often they interact. As a result, I wouldn't expect Marigold to interact with "friends of Angus" unless Angus (or Hanners) is there or that the likes of Faye approach her and 'drag' her along. Expect Marigold to put herself out to help Angus and Hanners, but not for Martin etc unless she feels something to gain - this is not a negative reaction it appears since the more social of us would help strangers out in need but not go that extra mile for them. Same with Marigold who won't see Martin etc as a full friend. For someone like Marigold, Angus (and increasingly so Hanners) will be her security blanket in a group. Although she is spending increasing amount of time with the main cast of QC, she won't be comfortable enough or know them well enough for equal interaction (not unless alcohol is involved and from memory she only drinks to make the effort of fitting in). By equal interaction, I mean that 99% of her conversations with the likes of Martin will be started by the group and she will look to answer politely. In relation to her friends (Angus, Momo, her guild and when alone with Hanners), she will probably start closer to half the conversations. 
 
I don't think Marigold is any more self centered than anyone else in the world. I think where people have commented about her behaviour from the time she came back from time with the main QC cast while Momo was going her raids for her is missing the point. From an introverts' position, spending time with a group of people without knowingly offending or making an idiot of yourself is a HUGE deal. Remember the start of that evening was: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1463. You'd forgive a man who has become a father for the first time coming back from the hospital and being caught up with himself being a father for the first time - for Marigold it is probably on a similar scale, but unless you are introverted yourself, you will think Marigold is being caught up in something that most would consider is no big deal.
 
http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1628Consider the time while sitting on the couch when Marigold told Faye she really liked Angus - leading to Faye making a quick exit when Angus came in - and then the joyous face when Faye left. Her joy in real life would not be purely down to the fact Faye seemingly took the hint to leave them alone - she probably took a bit of joy from the fact Faye didn't blow her off and tell her that Angus wouldn't be interested in her etc. Even if she saw the eyes pf Faye and Angus at the time, she wouldn't have necessarily known what the look meant. Or at least - she might have realised something was up, but she wouldn't have had the experience to know why.
 
Or take the time when everyone is out in the bar etc and then the last frame of the comic is Marigold sitting at her computer looking bored and sighing. It is probably wrong to say she is self-pitying. I'd argue her emotion is one of disappointment in herself and not one of pity. There is a difference and I doubt she'd want to be pitied. A sportsman who comes runner up will show signs of disappointment but won't be expecting pity - I hope the comparision explains what I mean.
 
I don't know how introverted Jeph is, or if he knows people like Marigold, but I think he has got the behaviour of an introvert to the level of Marigold more or less spot on to date. I've rarely set out to insult people or act rude, but awkwardness in situations can lead to situations that socially aware people can spot and navigate around. Any perceived rudeness from Marigold is almost certainly 99% unintentional. Compare that with the likes of Dora or Faye who built their reputations on 'sassing' people out.
 
(for the side issue of her magazines, again I think people are slightly missing the point. If I lend someone one of my books, then it doesn't matter if the spine is bent and there is a coffee cup mark on the cover where I once used the book as a cup coaster - the point is the person who is borrowing the book has a duty of care to return the book back in the condition they were lent it and not add to the stains etc. Whether or not the magazines are expensive or not is beside the point.)
 
So why does Angus think Marigold is great? In the context of their long term relationship, rather than how we have seen her react in group context, she is. As stated above, introverts normally have 1-2 good friends and so tend to have level of loyalty that extroverts don't have. Due to the relative ease that extroverts have in making new friends, extroverts tend to have more of an "easy come, easy go" attitude towards their friends. If a friend starts to become annoying, extroverts are more likely to discard them and find a different friend to hang around with. Introverts like Marigold don't have that option. Although we won't witness it (and it would be boring to read from a comic angle), Marigold will provide loyal, solid, committed friendship towards Angus. Marigold will always take Angus's side in any argument (their few minor spats aside), she will always be a loyal confidante who he can always confide in (more so than Faye or any other girlfriend or friend) and is the one person who isn't likely to betray him. She certainly won't critisise him unless he gives indication he wants her opinion, but I suspect he will appreciate it if he went too far that she does feel the need to react without asking. Due to her introverted nature, Angus won't need to deal with the baggage that extroverts sometimes have - certainly not needing to put up with her in terms of relationship dramas or emotional outbursts. All in all, they seem to rarely argue and are comfortable around each other - almost like a brother and sister but without the siblin rivalry.
 
Considering further Marigold's role in QC, she will always be introverted - no professional help will change that. She may develop stronger friendship bonds but will only have 2-3 real life friends at any point in time (ie, Angus, Hanners and maybe one other - it is hard to classify Momo due to her non-human status). It won't be in her nature to want to build a bigger group of friends than that, although for as long as Angus and Hanners are part of the QC crowd, she will be considered part of the friendship group. However, in her own mind she will not consider herself a fully paid up member of the group and will therefore opt in and out of group activities on a "as needs" basis. The longer she spends hanging out with the group, the more she'll learn the social protocols and will learn when she should keep quiet and when to speak although she will still at times feel awkward. For example, most of us know the protocols in terms of having a conversation on the phone, but not everyone is comfortable actually picking up the phone and making the call. We all know how to pee in public toilets but some people have problems if there is someone is using the toilet next to theirs....... Myself, if I make a phone call and get voice mail, I have to put the phone down, scribble a note of what I want to say and then redile - even if the message is "its me, call me back on number blah blah blah". Completely irrational but I've never been comfortable with speaking to technology down the other end of the phone but I'm ok speaking to a human live.
 
Marigold will never be one of the main characters, even if she is still involved several real life years down the line. As per the likes of Sven, Steve, Tai and a few others, she is one of the main background characters who will be come and go and help move things along now and again in whatever storyline is happening. Her introvertedness means she can disappear for periods without it seeming suspicious. Her absence is explained with "probably on a raid". At the moment, her main function is to help Hanners overcome some of her OCD. Both are socially inexperienced in some areas (such as boyfriends etc) although for different reasons.
 
For me, the most natural storyline that is focused on Marigold is a relationship with Dale who seems to have his eye on her and sees her as an online project. They are forbidden fruit for each other thanks to their class and server etc on WoW in the same way Romeo and Juliet were forbidden due to their family names and feuds. I suspect Marigold will be socially confused by the fact she'll probably be flattered by Dale's attention once his attention becomes obvious but sees him as the enemy. Of course, we won't see the fruitation of Dale's scheme for a while, but it would be interesting if Marigold does get a romance interest at a time when Angus and Faye has a major fight - as per above, by the nature of Marigold's personality, she will always be there for Angus but will her mind and attention be partly on other things?? Marigold bonding with Dale isn't so unlikely considering both have spend considerable time on WoW and their first date will probably be in a WoW tavern.
 
So in conclusion, I think Marigold is a good honest person without any deliberately negative attributes. However when in a group situation or away from her closest friends of whom she is most familiar with, she acts in a way she *thinks* people are supposed to - but without social experience she sometimes  gets it wrong and may unintentionally offend. For most people, being introverted or extroverted is not a huge problem, but when your 'vertedness is a little bit more extreme then the behaviour patterns become strange or out of sync with normal practices. Hanners also have wierd habits but we let her off once we are informed she has the excuse of OCD.
 
(Thank you for reading)
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leahneedsanap

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #103 on: 05 Jan 2011, 16:07 »

Agreed.  She's not perfect, but I think she's fundamentally not a bad person.  Just a different one who is still doing some learning--and she's never going to be the life of the party.
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Kugai

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #104 on: 05 Jan 2011, 18:48 »

Agreed.  She's not perfect, but I think she's fundamentally not a bad person.  Just a different one who is still doing some learning--and she's never going to be the life of the party.

That depends on how much Whiskey she drinks.
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #105 on: 02 Sep 2011, 02:40 »

Sorry to bump such an old thread.

Going back through these comics allows me to remember how rude Faye was to Mari...making bets with the bartender that Mari wouldn't come in. What a...c word. Won't go there again, I've already gotten myself in trouble.

I read almost everything here. Yes, Mari isn't perfect. I adore my Mariiiiiiiiii! ... and don't care what anyone says, really. She is a good girl with a good heart who can be impulsive, rude, selfish, crazy, immature, and a little out of control, just like everyone else. To quote Marilyn Monroe, if you can't handle her at her worst, you don't deserve her at her best.

It isn't just that I relate to her so much. No matter what anyone may say, she has so much courage. Nobody else in the comic holds a candle to Mari.
« Last Edit: 02 Sep 2011, 02:45 by questionablecontentfan »
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #106 on: 02 Sep 2011, 09:49 »

OK, I'll certainly agree with Marigold being brave.  However I should point out that she had to be pushed into going to the bar by Momo, given her druthers she would have stayed at home on her raid.  And Faye (and possibly others) would have been right about her, she wouldn't have shown.  So that bravery needs to be qualified somewhat. 

I also take offense at the c-word.  Faye really doesn't qualify - sure, she tried out some nicknames, and had that bet.  But she also made Mari a "dark and stormy" at the party, and may well have been inclusive in other ways - IIRC, she was sitting next to her during the "sucker punch drunk" incident.  She also horned in to protect Mari from Sven in the purloined book incident.  Granted, her handling of Momo that day was less than admirable, but she acted out of the goodness of her heart.  As did she when she left Mari alone with Angus, not wanting to burst Mari's bubble (despite the faux pas that followed as a result of her leaving). 

No matter how much you dislike her, you can't argue that Faye's completely  heartless. 

Well, you can, but it won't fly. 

Back to the bravery of Marigold; yes, she's been coming out of her shell, but I really doubt she would have if not for the efforts of others (Momo, Angus, Hannelore).  To that end, there are other brave people (perhaps braver) in the cast - Hannelore springs to mind, taking on her neuroses single handedly (I suppose she has Dr. Corrinne as a fallback, but therapy means you  have to do the work).  I don't know that Faye's particularly brave - she's more  of a survivor, although finally opening up to Marten was brave, as was going home to face her memories.  Raven changed her life around, losing weight and completely altering her personality - brave?  Well, the first steps probably were.  Not to mention going back to school to pursue her dreams...

I know you're a one-note fan, but I'll be calling you on your blanket statements when they get made.  Because someday, you're going to understand other people (and characters) better, and your whole view will change. 

I hope to be part of that. 
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #107 on: 02 Sep 2011, 10:08 »

One note. lol. Thanks, that's sweet.

It's true that I don't like any of them as much as Mari, but, except  Faye, I see some good qualities in most of them.

Just to let you know, anything you say about Faye not being so bad is automatically translated to blah blah blah in my mind, so don't bother.
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Josie's on a vacation far away, come around and talk it over
so many things that I wanna say, you know I like my girls a little bit older
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #108 on: 02 Sep 2011, 10:24 »

Well, there's  your problem! 
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #109 on: 02 Sep 2011, 10:27 »

Just like I mostly deal with the fact that others here like Faye, I'd like it if people could accept that I don't.

She's been in the comic for a long time, I get that.

Did it occur to anyone that maybe Jeph didn't put her in the comic to be liked? I am not the only person who loathes her.

I'd like people to respect that I don't like her. There's nothing likable about her. Nothing. I can't think of one time.

Maybe, as hard as it is for people to accept, Faye is just a bitch, that's her character, and that's why she's there. She's there to be a bitch.

If I was a man she probably wouldn't rub me quite as far the wrong way. But as it happens, I'm not, and she does.
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Josie's on a vacation far away, come around and talk it over
so many things that I wanna say, you know I like my girls a little bit older
I just wanna use your love tonight--I don't wanna lose your love tonight

Mr_Rose

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #110 on: 02 Sep 2011, 10:36 »

No-one cares that you don't like Faye.

People get annoyed when your obsession with not liking Faye just as loud as you can gets in the way of, well, everything else you do around here.
First it's dull and repetitive and second it doubtless triggers some sort of "worry" response in those of us whose empathy works through the tubes.

Also, I would not be surprised if Mr. Jacques got pissed at you for telling everyone you know how his character was meant to be interpreted as if you're the Divine Oracle of Jephi...just a hunch though.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #111 on: 02 Sep 2011, 11:03 »

(moderator)
There is, if memory serves, a separate thread for Faye's fundamental character. There's a reason for that.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no thread for discussing other forum members. There's a reason for that.
(/moderator)

That's a well-taken point about Marigold's courage, and I think it's a new point that hasn't come up before. There are probably more people willing to charge machine guns than there are people willing to change themselves. It's not unique to Marigold -- Hannelore has an anxiety disorder to fight, for example -- but it's still praiseworthy.
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #112 on: 02 Sep 2011, 11:26 »

No-one cares that you don't like Faye.

People get annoyed when your obsession with not liking Faye just as loud as you can gets in the way of, well, everything else you do around here.
First it's dull and repetitive and second it doubtless triggers some sort of "worry" response in those of us whose empathy works through the tubes.

Also, I would not be surprised if Mr. Jacques got pissed at you for telling everyone you know how his character was meant to be interpreted as if you're the Divine Oracle of Jephi...just a hunch though.

If you don't care, you're welcome to skip right over my comments.

I never intended to piss off Mr. Jacques, which is why I'm trying to work on it. It's really really hard though.
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Josie's on a vacation far away, come around and talk it over
so many things that I wanna say, you know I like my girls a little bit older
I just wanna use your love tonight--I don't wanna lose your love tonight

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #113 on: 02 Sep 2011, 11:43 »

Another interesting point you've made about Marigold is that she treats others decently. I can think of only one case where she said something harsh, and that was definitely provoked. If, as I would, you consider "others" to include AnthroPCs, she was showing concern for their welfare from near her first appearance.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #114 on: 02 Sep 2011, 12:25 »

...
That's a well-taken point about Marigold's courage, and I think it's a new point that hasn't come up before. There are probably more people willing to charge machine guns than there are people willing to change themselves. It's not unique to Marigold -- Hannelore has an anxiety disorder to fight, for example -- but it's still praiseworthy.

And that's what makes the Hanners-Marigold friendship an interesting part of the strip for me: On a basic level, both young women are in a "place" where dealing with everyday life takes conscious courage. Hanners is farther along the curve than is Marigold, and recognizes she helps herself by having someone else to help. It's fun to watch (in a good way, you perverts). And now Momo is taking on some of the Hanners role, giving Mari two friends and allies.
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #115 on: 02 Sep 2011, 12:57 »

Dear Ms. Questionablecontentfan,

I would never deny you your dislike of Faye.  She has several reprehensible characteristics, not the least of which is her violence towards others.  Though that's been tempered of late, it's still a problem, and always will be. 

And, though I respect that you don't like her, it's comments like
There's nothing likable about her. Nothing. I can't think of one time.
that drive me absolutely nuts.  Despite several times where she has been noble, a good friend, caring, generous, etc. that have been pointed out, you still scream this at every opportunity, with nothing to back it up.  You don't bother to refute anything that anyone has pointed out that doesn't fit your opinion - and that's a real  problem, not just one on the inter-tubes. 

You like to say that you'll never change your opinion, and other people won't change theirs.  In truth, people's opinions change everyday, as they are exposed to more information and ideas.  Maybe if you'd try and get us to see what it is about Faye that you dislike (a few examples would be good, or perhaps an alternative view of why the things others think are good acts aren't), you might sway a few people's opinions.  But calling her names, then disengaging from the conversation won't do it. 

So I offer you a challenge.  In the Faye's character thread (not the Faye's tits one), I want you to take some of the examples that I and others have offered you in the last few weeks, and analyze them.  Show us how she's a mean, nasty person motivated only by self interest and hate.  Cite your sources.  Link to the comics.  Explain how what she did was awful and irredeemable. 

You may actually sway a few people.  But I personally think you're going to get to know Faye a lot better in the course of this challenge.  It may become the equivalent of walking a mile in her shoes. 

At least, that's my opinion.  YMMV!
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #116 on: 02 Sep 2011, 13:06 »

bla bla bla

Thank you for your opinion.







I'm really sorry, I just had to... It's friday dammit!
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #117 on: 02 Sep 2011, 13:16 »

Okay, That's it.

QCF, have you READ Strips 500-510?

I suspect not.

Go and read them. Then ask yourself, "How do you think YOU would react to the world if that happened to you?"
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #118 on: 02 Sep 2011, 13:47 »

I guess I look at Marigold and what strikes me are the surges of self loathing she's had. As someone who's dealt with that too it can suck. I get the idea when I look at Marigold of someone who was frequently tormented in school and praying that she'd just be ignored, but then that might overstating things. Geekdom was a protective sphere but it has its own issues. One other thing is that Marigold seems pretty lonely, not necessarily on the friend front but more...well I remember her exchange with Angus on their way to the party about how she'd be willing to be with a guy just because he was kind of nice to her. Again, maybe overthinking it but that would imply that the poor lady is lonely and really wants someone to hold.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #119 on: 02 Sep 2011, 14:55 »

Give me a break. Marigold was provoked in almost all of those, and the ones where she wasn't, look at Dora's bitchiness back "Oh, I was too busy HAVING A BOYFRIEND" (hitting a nerve for Mari, who can't get a boyfriend) and then calling Marigold "awkward." Dora is quite a bitch sometimes, especially when she feels superior.

Angus was being a dick about the movies she liked.

And their website DID suck. What is she supposed to do, lie and say it's good? She was trying to help them, maybe not in the nicest way, but someone had to tell them.

The stuff with Dale is just her being immature and unsure of how to act with guys. I think Dale thought it was funny more than anything else. Yes, not tipping is rude, but come on. You might even call it her weird, backasswards sense of humor.

The Sven thing, whatever. Mari has been picked on by guys like him and ignored. Of course she's going to be jaded, and I won't blame her for that.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #120 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:01 »

Just to prove I don't love everything about Mari:

Disgusting, rat infested room.
Beef jerky and pocky--blecch!
Complaining that eating right and exercise was too hard but then rejecting Momo's help saying how pathetic getting a robot's help was. Um, you can't have it both ways, babe. Either take Momo's help if it's so hard, or DO IT YOURSELF if a robot helping you is pathetic.
Constantly ragging on herself, denying how pretty she is, saying she's ugly.
Thinking Dora and Marten are "cool" (GAG)
Not realizing how completely amazing she is.
Not realizing she can do a HELL of a lot better than Angus.
Not mouthing off more (people say she's been TOO rude, I think she's actually been too nice in some instances).
Drinking bourbon, getting completely wasted, and puking. Not cool, Mari. NOT cool. You're better than that shit!

Anyway, I can think of more, but despite how I feel about Mari, I see her flaws quite clearly. I don't think the guilting Angus into making out with her thing was uncalled for at all. He deserved worse than that.

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #121 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:05 »

Give me a break. Marigold was provoked in almost all of those

When we do something (or when someone that we understand and sympathize with does something) we see the intention, when someone else does something we only see the action.

Just as you rationalized everything Marigold did, there are rationalizations for what Faye does.

Do these rationalizations excuse their actions? possibly.

Faye and Marigold are both people with severe insecurities and issues; Marigold lashes out at herself, Faye lashes out at other people.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #122 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:07 »

No way. There is no excuse for what Faye does. Her dad shooting himself, while tragic, is not an excuse.

I could try to pretend to make up excuses. Oh, Faye is hurt, oh Faye is scared. Bleh. Punching and hitting people is inexcusable.

I never understood what Marten, or anyone, found so desirable about her. She makes me ...sick.

I can't really respond anymore. I REALLY have to stop talking about Faye before I get in trouble, again.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #123 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:12 »

That unwillingness to accept Momo's help was another example of the self-esteem problem. She has a friendship with Momo and trading favors is in general healthy.

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #124 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:16 »

Also, the way she brushes others off when they tell her she's pretty or offer advice is just rude. The way she talked to Momo was rude. The way she spoke to Hanners when Hanners was trying to comfort her was rude. Marigold doesn't see it that way...all she can feel is her own pain and she doesn't think or care about how her comments feel to others. It's not acceptable, but yes, it's easier for me to see why she does it because...

...I do it too.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #125 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:22 »

No way. There is no excuse for what Faye does.

The same can be said for Marigold.  There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.  

You can't have it both ways.  Mari's growing, developing, getting better with help from her friends (yes, that includes Angus).  

Faye's growing, developing, getting better with help from her friends (and some therapy).  

Dora might get better, it's too soon to tell.  Sven's making an attempt, again, too soon to tell.  Hannelore - well, that one's obvious.  The only main (human) character who hasn't changed since the strips inception is Marten, and he was recently called out on it.  

Will they all meet somewhere in the middle as well balanced, happy people?  


 :roll: Oh please.  Where's the entertainment in that?  
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #126 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:23 »

So I offer you a challenge.  In the Faye's character thread (not the Faye's tits one), I want you to take some of the examples that I and others have offered you in the last few weeks, and analyze them.  Show us how she's a mean, nasty person motivated only by self interest and hate.  Cite your sources.  Link to the comics.  Explain how what she did was awful and irredeemable. 

You may actually sway a few people.  But I personally think you're going to get to know Faye a lot better in the course of this challenge.  It may become the equivalent of walking a mile in her shoes. 

At least, that's my opinion.  YMMV!

I agree with Carl-E, and in the Faye's Character thread it wouldn't be off topic and it wouldn't be moderator fuel as long as you back up your assertions with reasonable citations from the story.

I could just as easily argue that Marigold should just get over her past, that her self image/they way people might have treated her does not excuse her actions at all.

But I don't....

mostly because I don't believe those things. But That is how you sound when you talk about Faye.

You have so much empathy for Marigold, there might be other people on here who identify with Faye that strongly, yet you don't extend them the same courtesy that has been given to you. The chance to have their opinion fairly heard the way yours have been.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #127 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:28 »

Quote
There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.

Oh really?

You want them in alphabetical order, or are you not too picky?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #128 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:44 »

Will they all meet somewhere in the middle as well balanced, happy people? 

 :roll: Oh please.  Where's the entertainment in that?  

Well, they could always assemble a set of havoc-wreaking rug-monkeys who (after undoing the balancing-out of her parents) start developing highly interesting and hilariously disturbing problems of their own, although I have to admit, this is a bit of a far-fetched storyline.    :angel:
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #129 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:46 »

Stop.

Please refer to the "Put the rocks down, Please?" link in the signature line.

Remember that you are dealing with REAL PEOPLE here.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #130 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:47 »

Well, they could always assemble a set of havoc-wreaking rug-monkeys

I'm pretty sure Jeph's said he won't do pregnancy.  Though whether that was because of the reaction to the C-A-D story, I don't know.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #131 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:51 »

I don't think QCfan wants reminding of that...
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #132 on: 02 Sep 2011, 15:59 »

I really don't get how Mari has excuses for her actions while Faye doesn't. It's either both or no one in this case. Quite a double standard to me.
I highly doubt that something has happened to Mari that is in the same level as Faye's tragedy. Not that it should matter anyway, hell no... You are supposed to trust and be nice with the world and just forget that your father just killed himself in front of you. It's just that easy.

Being introverted is just way more complicated.
« Last Edit: 02 Sep 2011, 16:03 by Mr. Doctor »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #133 on: 02 Sep 2011, 16:19 »

Quote
There's no excuse for shutting herself off from the rest of the world.

Oh really?

You want them in alphabetical order, or are you not too picky?

This is exactly my point.  You see how others have the same reaction to you that you had to me when you say this about Faye.  

But jwhouk's right.  I keep stirring the pot, trying to keep it from burning, and it turns out I'm stirring a hornet's nest instead.  I'm not talking about you in this analogy, but rather all those other forumites buzzing around this.  

I don't want to disengage from you completely - you're clearly a hurt person, and that ... well, that hurts.  But there comes a point in time when one person keeps shutting the door, and the person standing on the other side just has to give up and goes home.  I don't want to, but it's clearly starting to be counterproductive.  

My apologies to you and the rest of the forum.  I didn't mean to seem to be hounding you.  I'll let it rest, for now.  

Goodnight, Irene.  
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #134 on: 02 Sep 2011, 17:43 »

(T)here might be other people on here who identify with Faye that strongly, yet you don't extend them the same courtesy that has been given to you. The chance to have their opinion fairly heard the way yours have been.

THANK YOU.

I identify with Faye...not myself specifically but friends of mine. I have had friends who have had hard lives, or tragic instances in their lives, who end up being a little...prickly. I'm not saying that they're always nice, but friends stick by each other even if they sometimes say or do things that can be interpreted as mean, especially if you know that they may have a reason (justified or not) to act that way. I wouldn't call Marigold a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser" and just the same way, Faye shouldn't be called a "bitch".

This is one of the best things about reading QC...the characters are complex people with rich histories and contradictions in their personalities, just like real people. I don't think I have a single friend who hasn't done something "bitchy" or "jerky" at some point...but my point is that no one is strictly "good" or "evil" in the real world.

Marigold is a complex person, and so is Faye. I enjoy reading both of them for (very) different reasons, but let's not pretend that they both don't have good and bad qualities.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #135 on: 02 Sep 2011, 18:56 »

You think Marigold is a pathetic, weird, smelly loser?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #136 on: 02 Sep 2011, 22:03 »

You think Marigold is a pathetic, weird, smelly loser?


No, he doesn't. If you read his comment more carefully, you might have noticed that he explicitly stated that he would NOT call Marigold a 'pathetic, smelly loser'. Because that would be a narrow-minded, judgmental and inconsiderate thing to do. Just as automatically calling Faye a 'bitch' would be. Context, people.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #137 on: 02 Sep 2011, 22:20 »

*sigh*

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #138 on: 02 Sep 2011, 22:47 »

...explicitly stated that he would NOT call Marigold a 'pathetic, smelly loser'. Because that would be a narrow-minded, judgmental and inconsiderate thing to do. Just as automatically calling Faye a 'bitch' would be.

Thanks. =)

Exactly. I could come up with a million reasons that Mari is a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser". I could practically make an annotated list. But I won't, because I know that she's a complex character with many positive qualities as well, and those are just mean, short-sighted words to use.

Furthermore, it's kind of hurtful to call anyone names. That's my point. Even if said character is fictional we should resist labelling people as "bitch" or "loser" or "slut" because it over-simplifies peoples' personalities which are innately complex.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #139 on: 03 Sep 2011, 01:34 »

I could practically make an annotated list.
Exactly.
Let's not forget that we could easily do that with pretty much every character. You know... make some dumb lists so we can easily say that "Dora is an overreactive bi***", " Hanners is a nutjob", "Will is (well, before getting a job) a friggin loser", "Sven and Raven are kind of sluts", "Marten is a loser too",and so on and so on... "Faye is an abusive c-word" * isn't different. It's really easy to just take away all the good parts of a person just to put them into one single bad label.

*: God I hate that swear word.
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2011, 01:37 by Mr. Doctor »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #140 on: 03 Sep 2011, 09:20 »

One of the problems Marigold has to overcome is that she calls herself names. I like to imagine a therapist or a friend playing the role of therapist (bad idea) pushing her to reframe it: "I have a responsible professional job", "I'll start taking showers every other day", "I'll start getting some exercise by walking with Momo".

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #141 on: 03 Sep 2011, 12:07 »

I identify with Faye...not myself specifically but friends of mine. I have had friends who have had hard lives, or tragic instances in their lives, who end up being a little...prickly. I'm not saying that they're always nice, but friends stick by each other even if they sometimes say or do things that can be interpreted as mean, especially if you know that they may have a reason (justified or not) to act that way. I wouldn't call Marigold a "pathetic, weird, smelly loser" and just the same way, Faye shouldn't be called a "bitch".
While I certainly don't identify with Faye or any other QC character, I used to like her a lot. Then somehow in the middle of my second run through the archives, that just changed. I won't deny she has some redeeming qualities, but I do find them massively overshadowed by her bad ones.  She has reasons, but... why should anyone care? If someone treats you that way in real life, I bet you wouldn't stop to find out their reasons. I also bet Marten wouldn't have either if she wasn't the first attractive woman he'd (it's somewhat implied) spoken to in months.

I'm not tryin to change your mind, but have you ever had doubts about your own liking for Faye?

QCFan: Marigold is my favourite character these days. I don't let myself be bothered by what other people think too much, she's a character most people can't relate to. I understand that. I don't go quite as far in my devotion as you do though. :P
« Last Edit: 03 Sep 2011, 12:10 by TheBiscuit »
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #142 on: 03 Sep 2011, 12:17 »

She has reasons, but... why should anyone care?
The problem that I have is that Faye's excuses and reasons aren't fully accepted which is absolutely fine to me because just like you wrote "If someone treats you that way in real life, I bet you wouldn't stop to find out their reasons". I completely agree with that.
But somehow Marigold has excuses that no one would question, that's kind of, you know... unfair to say the least. They both have excuses or they haven't imo.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #143 on: 03 Sep 2011, 12:55 »

I shouldn't have said that I identify with Faye, just that I've had friends like her. I've definitely questioned how "good" of a person Faye is and she's not my favourite character, I guess I just don't think that she's a horrible person. Hasn't everyone had moments where they've been pissed off at people they care about, whether it be family or friends, when they've said or done something we disagree with? I know I have. For me it's just about trying to see things from their point of view too, because we've all done inconsiderate or stupid things. (This should probably be in the "Faye's fundamental character" thread, sorry. Just keeping the conversation going).

The problem that I have is that Faye's excuses and reasons aren't fully accepted...but somehow Marigold has excuses that no one would question, that's kind of, you know... unfair to say the least. They both have excuses or they haven't imo.

Well put.

Mari has reasons for being the way she is, I just don't see how "people are mean to me because I'm a nerd, so I have issues interacting with people" is any more legitimate or understandable than "my dad killed himself in front of me, then my boyfriend dumped me because he couldn't handle the tragedy, then I got in a horrible car wreck, then I was kept under observation in the psychiatric ward in a hospital for weeks, then I moved as far away from home as possible because every person and thing in my home town reminded me of my tragedy, so I have issues interacting with people".
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #144 on: 03 Sep 2011, 14:11 »

Honestly I don't know what Marigold is supposed to need an excuse for. Most of the examples posted above of her supposedly being harsh or nasty to people are what I'd call fairly normal interaction. It's not that unusual to call someone a rude name in those situations. She also said several of those things in the context of an overall good relationship with Angus. He tends to let his mouth run away with him, he admitted this. He provokes her, she responds... they stay friends anyway. Nothing that needs an excuse.

Dale isn't a friend of hers at all, let us remember. While she does take her game a bit too seriously, I don't see why she should be friendly to him in the first place. She obviously doesn't find him interesting as a person or she would have overcome her natural reaction to "alliance scum" by now. The thing with Tai was completly unintentional, almost everyone has said something like that without thinking of the implications. She didn't mean that she'd need to be desperate to consider Tai specifically.

C'mon, tell me something she really needs an excuse for? I want to know, because she seems fairly inoffensive to me. Maybe not very sociable or very adept at interpersonal relationships, but not in any way a bad person. I admit that her constant talking about her low self-esteem could get a bit wearing though.

Now compare with Faye who is physically violent at the slightest provocation, has blamed people for things they had no way of avoiding, took advantage of a friend's attraction to her to obtain a place to live, and has a vanity that almost defies description. She has some good qualities as well, but it often seemed to me in the early days of the strip that she was cynically using Marten. I didn't see it that way at the time, but it eventually came to appear that way to me.

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #145 on: 03 Sep 2011, 14:17 »

Attempting to be fair to all involved (and we know how that will work) ... the perceptions of Marigold and Faye about which everyone's arguing are in the main those of one forumite who, because of things she's stated and implied (and we've inferred) in her posts, identifies much more strongly with Marigold than with, well, just about anyone or anything else in the comic. And I suspect there has been a Faye, or a Faye-nalog, in the forumite's own life, one who has done considerable damage, perceived or real. I don't think there's much question the forumite's responses to her fellow forumites remind one of Marigold at her most extreme. Lord knows I've started to type out a few replies to the forumite and, that thought catching me, deleted them instead of hitting "post." Even so, I managed to catch at least one stray lightning bolt. Oh well.

Hey, Mari reminds me of some aspects of myself in my teens and twenties (except the part about being female; I'm not female) and the winces she evinces are those of self-recognition. I never had a Faye in my life -- that is to say, some who combines abuse with fierce loyal protectiveness -- unless you count my sister in some of her finer moments. You learn to love it, at least if it's a real person and a blood relation.

I started reading QC when Faye was, in the main, playful with flashes of mean-spiritedness, and I have to admit her present single-note dourness is a bit of a disappointment, but that may be a function of her being relegated to the background in the last couple of arcs. (It seemed to start almost exactly when Veronica told her she and Marten would be a "terrible couple.") But I console myself with two thoughts: I'm not seeing the whiny-manipulative side of her that would make me want to slap the pixels off her ink-line layer, and ... none of this is real. I can banish it at any time by the simple act of closing my laptop.

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #146 on: 03 Sep 2011, 15:14 »

People are the most themselves when interacting with family, Momo is emotionally speaking family, and we get a pretty good impression of Marigirl from the way she treats Momo.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #147 on: 03 Sep 2011, 16:29 »

The difference between Marigold and Faye is that we are aware of Faye's "deep dark issue". Marigold, AFAWK, doesn't have some similar issue - other than the little things we've heard from her about being teased and her social awkwardness.

On the plus side, she has grown a lot since she was introduced. Her room isn't the pigsty that it was when Marty and Dora brought Pintsize over to be repaired, and she is definitely caring more about her appearance (thanks, Dora).

...As an aside: I wonder if Dora and Marigold went out bra shopping like she suggested they should, back during the YouTube party?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #148 on: 03 Sep 2011, 17:03 »

Wow, what a conversation...

Let's see...

Personally, I would describe Marigold as a shut-in because that's how she strikes me, even after what growth she has had. I identify with her (even as a guy, 'cause let's face it, bullies target both genders), but to the extent that she's taken it? That's being a bit too comfortable in the hole you're in. I knew a guy at my old workplace actually, who was his own kind of shut-in; he had a few friends, but he was THE MOST self-deprecating person I've ever met. He would NEVER hear of how he's got a lot to offer, and despite his own opinion wasn't a bad looking guy, but the thing of it is no matter how many of us (co-workers and friends alike) tried to get him out, have fun, put a smile on his face, it wouldn't take because in the end he didn't want to get out of his rut. He had been miserable for so long it was just too familiar, and somehow he was just more comfortable being miserable. He wasn't a bad guy at all; in fact, the guy was a total sweetheart to people every chance he got, but there are reasons we're not still really friends.

I see a LOT of similarities between him and Marigold. She didn't want to get "better" until people started involving themselves with her, and so far we stillo haven't seen much in the way of her propelling herself to do new things and involve herself. If the QC cast left her to her own devices to involve herself with them, do you think she'd do anything?

Given their perks and quirks together, I can quite easily say I'd rather have Faye as a friend than Marigold. Faye's good characteristics outweigh Marigold's for someone like me, even though I could go toe-to-toe with our respective bullied upbringing. For her sake I'd like to see her take the steps she needs to to come out of her shell, by her own power alone and because she wants to.
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #149 on: 03 Sep 2011, 17:13 »

What Marigold said to Tai could have had a lot of meanings. Yeah, Mari's not into girls, but also, let's not forget that Tai hits on pretty much every woman in their group of friends. I pretend that Mari meant "I'm not desperate enough to go for someone who hits on every girl, like you." Even though I know she meant she wasn't desperate enough to make out with another girl, which was mean, but she was just being honest.

She also took her pants off and practically tried to grope Mari, that doesn't leave the best impression.

Mari is one of those totally straight girls that I'd always be hoping and hoping would...be with a girl. lol. But not Tai.
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