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Poll

Marigold is:

So clueless about people we can't tell what she's like
- 51 (11.2%)
Deep down she's a sweetheart
- 66 (14.5%)
Basically indifferent to the needs, desires and rights of others
- 25 (5.5%)
Trying to be good but not sure how
- 70 (15.4%)
Good, but not yet able to act on it
- 35 (7.7%)
A good person but only within her comfort zone
- 51 (11.2%)
She can't respect others when she doesn't respect herself
- 39 (8.6%)
It's too early to tell
- 34 (7.5%)
At least she's less creepy than early Hannelore
- 37 (8.1%)
42
- 34 (7.5%)
Portmanteau portrait porridge
- 12 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 135


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Author Topic: What is Marigold's fundamental character?  (Read 75425 times)

John_Knee

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #150 on: 13 Sep 2011, 14:44 »

The difference between Marigold and Faye is that we are aware of Faye's "deep dark issue". Marigold, AFAWK, doesn't have some similar issue - other than the little things we've heard from her about being teased and her social awkwardness.


Previously on top of page two I wrote a long piece (a long long time ago) that Marigold is very much more of an introvert. It is quite clear that Faye isn't and is on the extrovert side of the scale.

Although we know from comments that Marigold was bullied etc, it is highly likely that she was bullied as a consesquence of her introvert nature (since introverts have less friends etc, introverts do seem to tend to be more likely to be picked on). Faye functioned normally until her dad's suicide.

Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.

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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #151 on: 13 Sep 2011, 15:33 »

There's nothing wrong with Marigold.

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Tova

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #152 on: 13 Sep 2011, 16:23 »

I really don't understand the poll options. They all seem to be 'Marigold is a bad person' options with varying degrees of qualification.

She obviously has issues with confidence and self-esteem, and has difficulty moving out of her comfort zone. Or maybe she's lazy. Point is, she has her issues (which cast member doesn't?) but the poll options seem to be entirely perpendicular to her most obvious ones.

I suppose they might have been intended just to get the conversation going, but they don't seem terribly useful to me. I went for 42. It's definitely the right answer - now I just need to understand the question.

Someone has tried to be funny. You may wish to review your post.

Nah.
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #153 on: 13 Sep 2011, 16:32 »

Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.

Bleah.  So introverts are born, not made?  Sure, some personalities are more introverted than others by their nature, but the teasing Mari suffered is a positive reenforcement of introversion, sending her deeper into it.  That's learned behaviour, "nurture", and can be ameliorated with help.  

And what happened to Faye had little if anything to do with nurture.  Her way of coping with it was self destructive, but based on her nature - outgoing, interactive with other people (even if that interaction frequently ended in punches).  

It's just not  that cut and dried!  


Oh, and QCfan, Mari has issues.  Everyone  in this comic (and IRL) has issues.  You may not see them for what you percieve as her awesomeness, but Mari thinks of herself in a negative light (fat, smelly, ugly, etc.), and that's wrong - as you well know!  

Oh, Tova posted, and said much the same things about Marigold's issues.  Oh, well. 
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John_Knee

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #154 on: 13 Sep 2011, 17:23 »

Hence, a lot of Marigold's 'problems' are a thing of nature, whereas Faye's problem's are one of nurture. It is easier for Faye's problems to be dealt with professionally, but it'll be a lot harder for Marigold's 'problems' to be solved - and quite likely to a introvert's mindset, the 'problems' aren't really a problem.

Bleah.  So introverts are born, not made?  Sure, some personalities are more introverted than others by their nature, but the teasing Mari suffered is a positive reenforcement of introversion, sending her deeper into it.  That's learned behaviour, "nurture", and can be ameliorated with help.  

And what happened to Faye had little if anything to do with nurture.  Her way of coping with it was self destructive, but based on her nature - outgoing, interactive with other people (even if that interaction frequently ended in punches).  

It's just not  that cut and dried!  

My point is, even with counciling and therapy, Marigold will always be introverted as it appears to be her basic nature. She might be coaxed out to be less introvert on occassions but she won't be comfortable with it and needs a certain amount of (self)pressure. Correct to say the bullying is a positive re-enforcement, but speaking as an introvert myself, it is highly likely she would still be a socially awkward individual who seeks a small group of friends rather than a more normal sized group regardless of the bullying. Getting professional help won't give her the mentality to go out and be more comfortable in social situations. I would say a lot of the balance of who she is now is based more upon the 'nature' side of things than the 'nurture'.

I'd argue Faye is on the flip side of that in terms of her negative personality aspects. From the flashbacks, she doesn't seem the violent type prior to the suicide of her dad and since she has started receiving professional help, her consistancy of violent behaviour appears to have fallen - although she still slaps Pintsize (as does everyone including Hanners so maybe that doesn't count). Although Faye might have a bit of natural aggression in her personality, it appears her fathers sucicide acted as the thing that allows her to actively channel that aggression. I'd even suggest a lot of her violence is directly linked to her anger at not knowing why her father killed himself. As she recieves more councilling and comes to turns with the suicide, her anger will dampen and any violent outbursts will be minimal. Hence, because her behaviour can be de-learnt, her negative personality traits is where nurture is the dominant cause.

And yes I know it isn't always so cut and dried. People's characters are never 100% nature or 100% nurture and is in a sliding scale inbetween - in the same way people aren't 100% straight or 100% gay. But in terms of what is causing the negative personality characteristics, Marigold's is much more down to nature while Fayes is much more on the nurture side of things.

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #155 on: 13 Sep 2011, 18:09 »

There's nothing wrong with Marigold.



That would make her unique among the characters! But yes, definitely, introversion is not a defect.
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #156 on: 13 Sep 2011, 18:50 »

Joh_Knee,

Well put, thank you. 

IsItColdInHere, QCfan,

Introversion in and of itself is not the problem.  Self depreciation to the extent that it affects her ability to interact with others, that's  a problem.  The only thing really  wrong with Marigold is her view of herself...
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Tova

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #157 on: 13 Sep 2011, 19:07 »

Introversion in and of itself is not the problem.  Self depreciation to the extent that it affects her ability to interact with others, that's  a problem.  The only thing really  wrong with Marigold is her view of herself...

Carl-E's turn to beat me to it this time. Exactly right. And as such, I don't think that we can say with any confidence whether nature or nurture contributes more significantly to her self-esteem/self-respect issues.
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #158 on: 14 Sep 2011, 01:09 »

Of course she has issues, and of course she isn't perfect, but there's nothing wrong about it.

At least to me.

And yes, she is fucking awesome.
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jwhouk

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #159 on: 14 Sep 2011, 03:52 »

I suspect her response to you saying that would be, "No I'm not. I'm fat, my nose is too big and I've got zits."
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #160 on: 14 Sep 2011, 13:31 »

And I'd say, "Hush, you're beautiful."

And then she'd be like... "I don't like girls like that."

And I'd be like...  :oops:
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Mr. Doctor

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #161 on: 14 Sep 2011, 14:55 »

^Lolz, nice one. Took me a while to get the reference. You don't really get to the "recent" strips with the random button so it's been a while since I that. :P

Carl-E is right. Introversion isn't really a problem (I'm biased since I'm like that myself) but such a lack of self-steem (let's remember the time she tried to draw some stuff) is definitely not healthy.
When you learn to love yourself, people will love you back (if someone reads this as something sort of arrogant... That is totally not the way I meant it to be).
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #162 on: 19 Sep 2011, 11:58 »

I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. There are lots of different reasons why a person might not be very social. The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining. But still, what the hell does that say about a person? They may only be exposed to annoying people, or not be interested in a certain type of activity, or just have such poor social skills that talking to people is a major challenge.

Until Marigold meets people who share her interests, do the same things as her (or expands her interests and activities she enjoys) and improves her social skills to the extent that she could be prom queen, we won't know if she's a shut-in by choice. I somehow doubt she is though.

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Random Al Yousir

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #163 on: 19 Sep 2011, 13:10 »

Well, she does socialize, in her online gaming community.

Maybe because it's safe, there?
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #164 on: 19 Sep 2011, 14:26 »

She knows what the rules are.
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idontunderstand

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #165 on: 19 Sep 2011, 14:35 »

And she can always kill everybody if she grows tired of it.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #166 on: 19 Sep 2011, 14:52 »

She doesn't know what to do outside it. She told Momo that she doesn't know how to talk to people.
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TRVA123

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #167 on: 19 Sep 2011, 21:31 »

I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. ...... The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining.

I also dislike these categories, as they imply exclusivity, an introvert must be this stereotype, an extrovert must be this other stereotype, and never the twain shall meet.
I find that most people have introvert and extrovert tendencies, to different extents.... the old bell curve. I would be an introvert, by definition, because I have a need for time alone to recharge, rest, and introspect. However I am not a shy person; I enjoy social events, such as parties, and I also have fair people skills. I just don't want to be around people 24/7.

I've seen a couple of articles about introverts vs extroverts floating about the internet lately, and I'm disappointed by their content. They often paint introverts as oppressed, socially awkward people who channel the energy that they would otherwise spend socializing into work or learning. The articles paint extroverts as dumb partiers who put introverts down for not wanting to socialize.
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John_Knee

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #168 on: 20 Sep 2011, 03:39 »

I dislike the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert". I find it creates an us-and-them mentality and turns people into labels. There are lots of different reasons why a person might not be very social. The most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining. But still, what the hell does that say about a person? They may only be exposed to annoying people, or not be interested in a certain type of activity, or just have such poor social skills that talking to people is a major challenge.

Until Marigold meets people who share her interests, do the same things as her (or expands her interests and activities she enjoys) and improves her social skills to the extent that she could be prom queen, we won't know if she's a shut-in by choice. I somehow doubt she is though.

You probably dislike the categories of introvert and extrovert because you seem to associate negative attributes to the terms rather than accept people tend to lean in one direction or the other and both have their strengths and weaknesses in different circumstances. There is a sliding scale in terms of how intro/extro-verted someone is and no one is purely one or the other. Most people, regardless of their leaning, are sufficently close to the middle that they might feel uncomfortable in some situations, but are mentally able to cope. Additionally the social environment might pull someone closer to the middle - for example, an introverted person who works in an office will learn how to behave and how to communicate in that situation. Likewise, an extrovert might need to do the same thing depending on if the office is open plan and relaxed or a more serious one where people talk less - except in the staff kitchen areas.

Your definition that "the most objective definition is that an introvert finds socialising draining" is woefully wide of the mark. All people regardless of their intro/extro-vertedness need time out at times. An introvert is oten more than happy to spend time entertaining themselves (reading a book, watching a film, whatever) and don't need a lot of people and background noise to feel comfortable.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #169 on: 20 Sep 2011, 12:51 »

I have no hard feelings or negative associations, so I apologise for coming off like that. I dislike it because it's like classifying creatures under "land animals" and "sea animals". Giving something a classification needs to be the result of a well thought out process, so you don't end up with "a sliding scale" and "partial introverts" (who might be completely different).

I did just remember something useful about it though. I read a study somewhere about the thinking patterns of self-identified introverts and extroverts. It found that "introverts" generate ideas and solutions more effectively alone, while "extroverts" do that more effectively when with others. Basically, according to their fancy neurology, a portion of brains in the population function in quiet, while the other portion functions in noise.

I usually sit in group brainstorming sessions without anything to say feeling all inadequate, then I come home and think of great ideas and want to kick myself. So that was interesting to learn. But then "the brain which functions in quiet" has to be the only definition of 'introvert', and personal generalisations shouldn't be made from it without scientific correlation etc. etc.
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idontunderstand

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #170 on: 21 Sep 2011, 01:06 »

My friend (whose mom is a psychoanalysist, or something similar) told me a story about a workplace, an office, where the boss was an extrovert, while the clerks mainly were introverts. Even though the boss was pretty much the nicest guy in the world, they all saw him as something of a psycho, since he would always run up and talk to them whenever he thought the office was too quiet while they were working. As introverts, they saw it as him trying to push them down and keep them in check. Things got better once they'd found out what the problem came from, though.
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questionablecontentfan

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #171 on: 14 Nov 2011, 07:59 »

My friend (whose mom is a psychoanalysist, or something similar) told me a story about a workplace, an office, where the boss was an extrovert, while the clerks mainly were introverts. Even though the boss was pretty much the nicest guy in the world, they all saw him as something of a psycho, since he would always run up and talk to them whenever he thought the office was too quiet while they were working. As introverts, they saw it as him trying to push them down and keep them in check. Things got better once they'd found out what the problem came from, though.

Honestly, I do think some outgoing people have a touch of mental illness. Going around talking to anyone, people you don't even know, just randomly talking all the time? Yeah, something about that screams "not right in the head." I've had customers at my job who tell me really personal things they honestly should not be telling strangers.

Being too introverted is messed up, but so is being too extroverted. It's better to be somewhere in the middle.
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idontunderstand

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #172 on: 14 Nov 2011, 08:21 »

Wellll... a mental illness would mean that those people would suffer from it. And they probably don't. Everyone should just behave how they want, intro- or extroverted. "Being in the middle" is not just a choice you make.

And of course, if someone wants to be left alone that should be respected.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #173 on: 14 Nov 2011, 09:11 »

I knew someone who went on a plane flight and introduced herself to everyone on the 747.

That could be done by a healthy person several standard deviations out on the curve of friendliness, but in that case she eventually got a manic diagnosis.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #174 on: 14 Nov 2011, 09:20 »

yeah, there are certainly people who suffer from extreme behavior like that. A lot of the people I've known who are extremely extroverted to the point of not being able to "turn it off" are often quite lonely. They make casual acquaintances easily, but have trouble with the more intimate interactions necessary for close friendships.
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Carl-E

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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #175 on: 14 Nov 2011, 10:03 »

Hi.  Please to meetchya. 

I've had both problems.  There are times I need  to be left alone, and times when I'm the life of the party, going from one conversation to another, making sure everyone's having a good time.  I have no fear of getting in front of a bunch of strangers and selling myself. 


But friends?  True  friends that I can talk honestly and openly with?  Very few.  Less than a handful. 




And one of them I married. 
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #176 on: 14 Nov 2011, 11:02 »

.... 
But friends?  True  friends that I can talk honestly and openly with?  Very few.  Less than a handful. 
.... 

I'd actually call that healthy. With or without the marrying-one-of-them part.
Aesop called it, millenia ago: He who has many friends has no friends.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #177 on: 14 Nov 2011, 15:06 »

I don't believe close relationships and/or trusting issues and the like has that much to do with being intro- or extroverted though. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: What is Marigold's fundamental character?
« Reply #178 on: 14 Nov 2011, 17:06 »

Aesop called it, millenia ago: He who has many friends has no friends.

I've never come across that - but I understand it and like it.
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