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So clueless about people we can't tell what she's like

51 (11.2%)

Deep down she's a sweetheart

66 (14.5%)

Basically indifferent to the needs, desires and rights of others

25 (5.5%)

Trying to be good but not sure how

70 (15.4%)

Good, but not yet able to act on it

35 (7.7%)

A good person but only within her comfort zone

51 (11.2%)

She can't respect others when she doesn't respect herself

39 (8.6%)

It's too early to tell

34 (7.5%)

At least she's less creepy than early Hannelore

37 (8.1%)

42

34 (7.5%)

Portmanteau portrait porridge

12 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 135

[Lost Coastlines]

Is Marigold even socially skilled enough to be manipulative?

Yes.  Toddlers are socially skilled enough to be manipulative.  She probably does not realize she is being manipulative because she is either not capable of being that self-reflective or she chooses not to be.

[Carl-E]

BINGO!!

It's the self-awareness thing.  Remember the near-miss epiphany?  She's just that un-self aware (self-unaware?)  to not realize when she's being manipulative, or just how clueless she really is about what's going on around her (Fangus). 

There are people like this in real life. 

As I've said before, I'm the father of one.  Watching her blunder along making painfully obvious social mistakes because of it is one of the most painful things I endure on a daily basis. 

But I also know how sweet and wonderful she is, and could be to others, if only she could get to the point of being able to express it.  So, I guess I'm biased in Marigolds favor through personal experience. 

BTW, she follows the comic.  And is SOOO unaware of herself that she doesn't identify with Marigold! 

[Alex C]

Not caring isn't the same thing as not understanding.

[jwhouk]

Not caring isn't the same thing as not understanding.

As is the reverse.

In fact, I suspect that today's comic probably confirms it: she doesn't realize that Tai (and Dora) were ogling her in that dress.

[noteventhesameguy]

What is Marigold's fundamental character?  She's a somewhat socially inept female with pulled back hair, glasses, and a less than perfect fashion sense.  In other words, she's the female protagonist in just about every teen "Make her a prom queen!" movie.  If I didn't think Jeph were above such trite garbage, I'd sense a Hollywood makeover coming up in the very near future. 

Jake: What about her?
[indicating hunchback girl walking by]
Austin: So baby's got a little back. Hunch, that is. Naah, way too easy.
Jake: OK.
[indicates hippy albino girl playing guitar]
Albino Folk Singer: [singing] I have no pigment...
Austin: Any girl with a guitar is hot.
Albino Folk Singer: [continues singing] I need sunscreen...
Austin: Granted, she's a hippy albino. She could still be prom queen.
Jake: OK, uh, what about the Fratelli sisters?
[indicates awkward Siamese twins conjoined at the head]
Austin: So they're slightly disfigured and connected at the head. But combined, those two make up one pretty decent chick.
Reggie Ray: Yeah, I'd do 'em.
Austin: I know you would, Reggie Ray. But no, I'm looking for somebody who's really messed up. I'm talking about a real shitbomb.
[Janie Briggs walks by]
Austin: Well, bombs away!
Jake: No, no, no, no, anyone but her! Not... Janie Briggs! Guys, she's got glasses and a ponytail! Aw, look at that, she's got paint on her overalls, what is that? Guys, there's no way she could be prom queen!
Malik: Damn! That shit's whack!

[nichidani]

Good point. And being a girl with glasses and pulled back hair and social anxiety, that's always bothered me. While a lot of us withdrawn nerd girls would like to be a little more outgoing and pretty, we don't all want to become a cookie cutter image of conventional 'beauty'. At least, not most of the time.

[IanClark]

The only reason it was even brought up was because, despite not being a big deal its pretty much the only example of Marigold being particularly selfless.

It's also pretty much the only example of Marigold not being in unknown territory. Basically, the only reason I brought it up in the first place was purely for psychoanalysis. When trying to analyze a person's fundamental nature, you should never base it on how they act outside of their element, and so far almost all of Marigold's appearances have been just that: Out of her element. So what I'm saying is that, on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.

Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".

I think being unaware of your actions is the only thing that does excuse them, although that goes both ways. Marigold helped Hannelore overcome a major roadblock with her OCD, but it doesn't count because she had no idea she was doing it. In that exact same vein, her being selfish can be at least partially overlooked since she's shown to also have no idea she's doing it.

Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile,

Not sure why you specified the States, it's just as rude in Canada...

Anyway, I think Dale's reaction to it, and to Marigold period, is possibly the most reasonable out of any of the cast and most of the people here. At first he was kind of shocked, but he never seemed to get to offended because he realized there was just something profoundly bizarre about it. So instead his response seems to be to laugh it off and challenge her semi-seriously. You've described her behaviour toward Dale as vile, disgusting and rude, but you have yet to describe it in the way that should jump out to everyone as soon as they read it: Really fuckin' weird. Jeph has said that QC exists in a universe far sillier than the real one. This is why Faye was able to throw Angus across a bar with no serious injury, Faye was able to hit a vein opening a tin of tomatoes without losing consciousness, hospitals keep punching interns on staff, store windows advertise "touristy bullshit" and Steve works for the US Government Department of Kicking Your Ass. I'd venture a guess and say the more outrageous something is, the less offensive it is to the people in the QC Universe. In all likelihood, Dale woke up that morning, walked into work some time later, said hello to his coworker the superhero, then delivered pizza to all myriad of people, some of whom were probably naked, some of whom might not have actually stopped fucking while he was at the door, some of whom he himself might've fucked, some of whom probably had some kind of exotic pet they kept trying to show him and convince him to stick his head in the mouth of. Point is, once the initial shock wore off, getting no tip and a door slammed in his face over WoW shit was probably the funniest thing that happened to him all day, or possibly second to the couple who also slammed the door in his face for not yelling "Albatross" when he arrived at the door. The point is, it's a weird universe and getting a door slammed in your face probably isn't as big a deal there as it is here.

guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.

Yeah, it was pretty shitty of her, but in a way it kind of lets on to how sad her life's been and why she deserves sympathy. Let's say for a second that you had no conscience whatsoever and didn't give a fuck about the emotional well-being of anyone around you, would you ever try to guilt-trip someone into making out with you? Of course not, it'd feel hollow and the shame would kill you. The fact that she doesn't seem to care proves she really does think that poorly of herself, and that it's not just an act that she milks.

Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party.

Once again, out of her element. Being thrust into social situations has exposed all of her shortcomings, and she's failing to redeem herself in her own mind. Playing WoW all day, she felt unfulfilled, but at least she felt worthy. Now not so much, and the learning curve is steep when the examiner is yourself. If you could come out of that without self-pitying, you're a stronger person than a lot of people.

What reason do we have to actually like Marigold?  There only seem to be people defending her because they feel sorry for her or her latest awkward moment relates to some awkward moment in their own past, but are either of those actually legitimately liking her as a character?

Yes to both actually. You can't feel sorry for someone if you don't like them. The reason we have to like her is that, as I've demonstrated, there's a case to be made that there's a genuinely nice person somewhere in there, even if right now she's a nice person doing not nice things. Which is possible when there are other factors, like a lack of self-awareness.

And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold

But a few days ago, you said she wasn't actually that socially inept.

I wouldn't hate them because I wouldn't associate with them, but Marigold takes up a not-insignificant amount of time in a strip where I enjoy pretty much every other character.

Shall we delve into the transgressions of the other characters? This post is already long enough as it is, so no maybe another time.

Nice ad hominem though.

I apologize for the poor wording of my comment. What I meant to say was that if your standards were as high as you say, you'd be a prick, but they're not, so you're not a prick. This was proven correct by your statement about enjoying the other characters.

[Is it cold in here?]

... on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.

For example, helping out guildmates even when said guildmates are not pulling their own weight.

[IanClark]

I want to address the issue of whether Marigold is a sociopath or is genuinely as self-loathing as she says, but since it's so much of a purely speculative issue, it's going to end up as more of a psychological case study than anything else. Should I put it here or create a whole new topic?

[TAG]

Hey Ian

I'll try to make this brief, so excuse the formatting.  Wiped out from work project.  Numbers for points.

1)  If you define the world outside her apartment as outside her element that doesn't leave us with a whole lot.  I would argue the initial Dale exchange should be in her element as its about both WoW and junk food delivery.  Dale was hurt enough to devote easily 300 hours to get a petty meaningless revenge.  Also in her room alone with Momo.

She's also not terribly good at handling her raid guild / online life.  And as a partial reply to Is it Cold, she's not doing it for them, she's doing it for her.  Every guild has it's deadweight, its a fact of virtual life ;P

To her credit, she performed reasonably off camera at the comic con.  Although she does freak out and then pout at Martin's expense.

But, as I said a while ago, friendships are give and take.  Community is give and take.  How one handles oneself outside of an optimal environment is just as, if not more, important than how one handles oneself at one's peak.

2)  I think this is a philosophic disagreement outside the purview of the discussion so I hesitate to get into it.  Refusing to accept, analyze, or think about the consequences of your actions is not a positive trait.  The only excuse, to me, would be an actual handicap such as Asperger's or other forms of autism.

I don't think the Hanners example is valid though.  Marigold's actions put Hanners in an uncomfortable position, perhaps because Marigold wasn't thinking about Hanners again (granted in this case it is perhaps excusable).  Hanners then overcame her own impulses.  It wasn't the intended or unintended act by Marigold -- which should have resulted in a flipped out Hanners -- but a separate and distinct act of suppression by Hanners, which is even visible.

3) I brought up the States because some other countries -- notably Aussieland -- don't share our absurd tipping system and QC seems to have a broad international readership.  So I don't know how one from there would perceive the act of tip shirking.

And as I said ealier, Dale seems to have committed himself to hundreds of hours worth of revenge.  But Dale's response is irrelevant.  It was rude, and it was vile, and whether Dale is a good enough guy to let it go or not doesn't matter.

4)  If I had no conscience?  Sure, if it got me what I wanted.  Isn't that the definition of no conscience?  If you grant her that it was reflexive, unconscious guilt-tripping, that makes it worse; she can then enjoy what she's after without recognizing that she only has it because she manipulated someone else.  It also means her natural, unconscious decisions are pretty evil.

5) Again, semi-philosophical disagreement, see end of point 1.

6) I disagree, you can feel sorry for people you don't even know, much less like.  That's the whole premise behind almost every single charity promotion anywhere.  Hell I feel sorry for Marigold; doesn't mean I think she's a good person (obviously).  Is everyone in Hati a saint, or everyone in New Orleans?  No.  But I still donated.  Same with blood donations, which I feel should be freely available to anyone in need.

7) I... never said she wasn't?  Not that I can recall anyway.  I write these posts in different states of exhaustion as I travel generally so I may be forgetting.  She's inept.  That could excuse saying things in the wrong way, but it doesn't excuse the intent or general meaning behind those things.  It just makes it easier to see her innate selfishness / manipulations.

8 hates emoticons) Other characters aren't angels either, I freely admit that.  But they all do have reasons to like them that outweigh their problems.  Even if you don't like them (Sven or Faye, for instance), they are at least generally interesting.  Being interesting characters may break the 4th wall as an analysis of their character but in the context of the reader, where one focus means the exclusion of another, its at least a better read.  Hell, by 300 strips in the "original 4" all had at least some reason to genuinely like them, even with faults.

9) Thanks ^^  I love to debate but I dislike making things, especially internet things, personal.

/end_list

Anyway I still have yet to really hear a reason why anyone should really like Marigold, as a person or a character.  No one was able to come up for a good reason why Angus said she was so awesome other than flattery, and the rest of the QC cast only seems to be able to think of and compliment her chest (to her face or otherwise).

Sure, there may be some potential great person buried deep inside, but everyone has the potential to change.  Humans are wonderfully plastic that way, and the world is a strange place full of life altering events, and the QC world is even stranger.  And hell, as I said before, I'm certain Jeph will "redeem" Marigold at some point.  Maybe knowing Dora wants to moterboat her will get her into therepy and get her to make some real effort for a metoric rise to a crowning moment of awesome.  But currently, she's a pretty bad-to-meh person and a boring character.  Her involvement in the QC group is more a testament to the character of the other characters, rather than her own.

Fake Edit Cause It Updated While I was Typing: At your latest Ian, I don't think she is a sociopath*, in that I don't think there is anything preventing her from at least normal levels of empathy.  She could be some level of autistic, but until that is confirmed I think she is just a generally unimpressive person who refused to put in the effort to be a good one.

* Yes I know I called her that in some post, but it was also in the context of a joking response with an accompanying emoticon and all

Edit 2: Because it's not worth a full new post.
@Is it cold below, I think it's implied that Angus was either joking/lying or was living elsewhere at the time.  Housemates.  Not roommate or suitemate, but implying living in a (presumably rented) house with multiple other people.

[Is it cold in here?]

Marigold has not left behind the trail of broken used people that a sociopath would have, but there is such a thing as a destructive personality that lures people in by inviting pity (reference: "The Psychopath Next Door").

Edit: she did show enough empathy and concern for Angus to celebrate his breakup by throwing a party (1363).

[jwhouk]

All right, here you go:

WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT MARIGOLD
(EDITED to put into more appropriate grouping)

Physical/Mental:
•   She lives near Marten's apartment in Northampton.
•   She has either freckles or facial marks (probably acne) on her right cheek.
•   She wears glasses (we don't know if it's for fashion or for sight).
•   She generally wears her hair down and slightly over her face.
•   According to Momo, she is "absent-minded" and doesn't clean as much as she should. (She admits to this later.) Proof of this: she had 10-year old Pocky under her bed - FULL OF RAT POOPS.
•   Also, she has little regard for her physical well-being (self issues). She tends to be very, VERY messy (a "PET" rat?)
•   She freaked out as Hannelore started cleaning her room.
•   She pretty much watched anime and played video games in college, like she does now.
•   She has some Yaoi and other Manga posters on her wall.
•   Jeph has said that "Marigold isn't very self-aware." He also has suggested that "The last thing my comic needs is another super-detached female character who is constantly self-analyzing and quipping about everything she says."
•   Marigold has a weird sense of humor – one that's lost on Momo.
•   She can be melodramatic at times (per Dora)
•   She doesn't realize how her boobs look to others (even in a Victorian corset)
•   Marigold farts when she's been seated for a while.
•   Marigold thinks she's fat and smelly, and has bad skin, and her nose is too big.
•   She isn't entirely trusting of people (she had to ask Angus if he was "just messing with" her with the “pretty” comment).
•   When she's feeling horrible about herself, she hides under her blanket on her bed.
•   Angus is right: "you're just a little shaky on the self-esteem front."
•   Marigold also blushes easily.
•   She was embarassed by the whole situation at NRRDCON.
•   Hannelore thinks she’s smart anyways.
•   She started trying to be less of a shut-in by going out to a movie with Angus.
•   She does try to be passively manipulative at times: she wanted to watch some of the MLG with Angus, and gave him the Sad Marigold face when he initially declined.
•   She does have a weird sense of humor (I'll djo noshing but shmile! I promishe!)
•   She did get a haircut that gave her “bangs” instead of just long hair; she wanted it to look like Rushuna Tendo. Stylist had no idea who that was.
•   She's not very good on witty repartee... (I'll wash YOU more than twice a year! B-because you're a STUPID JERK! Who SMELLS!)
•   Marigold: "I'm NOT a shut-in. I'm just introverted."
•   Marigold looks kinda cute with dual ponytails.
•   She doesn't like being barged in on, or being made fun of.
•   She went to a regular high school – where she didn't learn dancing or social etiquette.
•   She "knows what the sun is" (Stupid Faye.)
•   “I'm fat, stupid, pathetic and ugly and...” (Hannelore yells at her for this attitude) “...See? I AM pathetic. Even YOU are mad at me.”
•   She has a death-grip hug.
•   Her hangovers last a few days (and pocky doesn't help); Momo has to occasionally kick her in the pants to get her going.
•   Sometimes she just wants to lay in bed; Momo has to use "scatological judo" to get her out of bed.
•   Sometimes she feels like she's always doing something retarded.
•   She still thinks she's an idiot over Angus.
•   All she really wants is somebody to be nice to her and pay attention, and... y'know. "Nobody's ever done that before."
•   She doesn't understand why she shouldn't like a guy just because he's nice to her.
•   She'd settle for a guy being nice to her just to get in her pants. (Welcome to Marigold-Land... NOTHING ever goes the way you want it to.)
•   She has tried Guilt Tripping to get Angus to change his mind: "You could if you wanted to… Uh...would that work?” (DAMMIT MARIGOLD)
•   She suddenly realizes after Dora made her laugh about the whole Boob thing that she's okay with everything!

Likes/Dislikes
•   She is a fan of Yaoi manga (note the "YAOI ZONE" t-shirt) and Yaoi Anime.
•   She likes ramen soups and pocky candy.
•   She has mangas, "toys", video games.
•   Marigold likes the compelling and nuanced storyline of anime.
•   Marigold doesn't like negative commentary about Magical Love Gentleman.
•   She owns a "SCIENCE: It's a Verb Now" t-shirt
•   She doesn't like squirrels. (I don't CARE how you CAUGHT HIM, get him OUT FROM UNDER MY BED!)
•   Her "side" of WOW is evident by her "HORDE RULES" t-shirt.
•   She has Badtz-Maru panties, with the frilly (OH MY GOD GIVE ME THAT!)
•   She has a Pokemon-themed cap.
•   She has a white "I (heart) HARUHI" hoodie.
•   She also has a "DIR EN GRAY" t-shirt.
•   Her opinion of Nerd-Con: "Spend the entire day surrounded by greasy, awkward dorks arguing about anime and hitting each other with foam swords?"  (Let’s Do THIS.)
•   She won a stuffed Sosuke doll (and yes, Dora, it's anatomically correct.)
•   ...and she did NOT know what to say when she saw Momo doing something with her Sosuke doll!
•   Another T-shirt: EVA-01
•   She has a photo of Red Robot from Diesel Sweeties on the wall of their apartment, near the entrance.
•   White Words On A Black Shirt (gotta love it).
•   She has a little pink manga kitty wallet.
•   She also has an ULTRA COOL "xkcd" t-shirt!
•   She also has a "MEH" t-shirt (similar to Marten’s “TEH” shirt).
•   Hannelore seems to remember seeing a katana in Marigold's room.
•   She learned her lesson: NO BOURBON.

Computers, AnthroPC’s and Gaming:
•   She is the owner of a Sony model HPC-4100x series AnthroPC named Momo (we first met Momo in 1298; Marigold’s first appearance was 1413)
•   She is knowledgeable about AnthroPC's (1412); and knows how to do diagnostics on them. She recognized that Pintsize was a government-issue chassis. She fixed Pintsize when he tried to "rewire" himself.
•   She is an avid player of World of Warcraft.
•   She can burp all her WoW characters' names, but it takes 10 minutes and a two-liter of Coke.
•   She has a copy of Pintsize's Hentai pictures on her laptop (she copied over the directory when “fixing” him).
•   Concerned for AnthroPC's, "make sure you're not secretly ABUSING him." ("Does Faye... often get this violent with Pintsize?” (sometimes more concern than she does herself or other people)
•   Discovered what Pintsize grabs first when he's booted up... ("You're acquitted, and I'm sorry about the new dent.")
•   Told Marten that Pintsize's chassis could be worth four to five grand; Could put current chassis on eBay, replace w/$200 civilian model, keep the profit.
•   Marigold has seen tech demos of Fujitsu APC's; "Uncanny Valley with an writhing erection."
•   One time during a raid, her guild leader farted loud enough they all could hear it over voice chat. They all started laughing so hard, they all got killed.
•   She enjoyed going out with the others because they were "so NICE". (People said she looked PRETTY - squeee!)
•   She treats Momo like a child at times (have a CIVIL CONVERSATION or you are GROUNDED!)
•   She is very good at putting a custom PC rig together... though Momo didn't understand the "Squirrel" joke.
•   She is of the Horde faction in WoW; she plays on Warsong  server; her character is at LEVEL CAP and has top-tier equipment. Her sign-in handle is "MariGoldFarm".
•   She thinks Angus can be such a jerk sometimes.
•   She resents the other girls in her WOW guild; they’re there more for the social interaction and she ends up having to compensate when they're doing raids.
•   She didn't realize that a lot of the "slutty pictures" that the other two girls in her guild post of themselves on forums are camera angle, lighting and photoshopping… nor did she know that she could use the clone stamp tool in PS to get rid of her pimples. (She STILL thinks Angus is such a jerk!)
•   Marigold danced when she completed her armor in WoW, and was joined by Angus – who taught her a few dance moves.
•   She doesn't like using someone else's laptop. It's like wearing someone else's pants or underwear.
•   She's the web designer for her dad's business website. "She pays taxes and everything!" She made the (rather insensitive) comment that “the code for the CoD website isn't bad. I mean, for an amateur. That kind of HTML was CUTTING EDGE in, like, 1995.”
•   After her “scatalogical judo” comment, Marigold doesn’t want Momo  to hang out with Pintsize anymore.
•   Momo rides in the hood of her sweats when they go places, but Marigold can get too focused on arguing with Momo that she doesn't see things.
•   She does NOT like finding out that her Pizza Delivery Guy (Dale) is ALLIANCE SCUM! ("NO TIPS FOR ALLIANCE SCUM!")
•   She DEFINITELY wouldn’t go out with an alliance ROGUE like Dale. (She's desperate, but she has some standards.)

Social (Overall):
•   Very tight with her money (doesn't want to spend money on things like maids or groceries).
•   Her first response to almost ANYTHING social is, "Can't got a Raid."
•   Marigold doesn't know how to talk to people!
•   When Momo accidentally blew up her PC, she came THISclose to a personal epiphany... but then she realized she had to call her guild leader and explain what happened!  (Angus didn't say anything, though; Momo suggested "The epiphany, coupled with the shock of losing her computer could kill her!")
•   One time, in eighth grade, she got invited to a pool party. They hit her in the face with a pool noodle, she got a bloody nose, broke her glasses, started crying and had to go home. (Conversation occasionally stops around Marigold.)
•   She hates Pintsize ("boob terrorist").
•   She won the MLG trivia contest at Smif’s NRRD Con – getting every single question right! (Hanners thinks she's smart.)
•   She mumbled something incredibly nerdy and unintelligible – and then promptly turned and fell on her face – when she met the artist who draws Magical Love Gentleman.
•   Marigold still thinks she has to apologize for every outing (She was awkward and dumb and stuff.)
•   She had a dissected frog put down her shirt once. (It's the "benchmark" of "bad things" for her.)
•   She has no idea who Thurston Moore is.
•   She occasionally runs into people, and accidentally walks off with their book… like, say, Sven’s book about the Crusades?
•   Tai LOVES M's boobs. (Dora does too, it seems); Will thinks she has a Homeric set. (Penelope takes exception at that.)
•   She and Dale “confronted” each other over their WOW connections. Marten thinks she was fighting – or maybe flirting. Or both.

Social (Hannelore):
•   She forgave Hanners about yelling at her over her messy room.
•   Marigold got Hannelore hooked on Yaoi (Hanners had mixed her Yaoi in with the rest of her Manga).
•   Marigold shared a Yaoi book (Magical Love Gentleman #18) with Hannelore.
•   Momo had to intervene when Marigold wanted to watch anime with Hannelore.
•   Momo had to intervene when Hannelore wanted Marigold to shower first!
•   According to Hannelore, Marigold is a shut-in – a bit like how she used to be.
•   Hanners and Marigold – FRIENDZORZ! But it’s an awkward one (Oscar and Felix, anyone?)
•   Hannelore got past the “Can’t got a raid” by saying the magic words: "Oh, can I watch? I've never seen one of these raid thingys..." Marigold tried to push it off as "boring".
•   Much to Hannelore's horror, she forgets about things when she’s online.
•   She referred to Hanners as her "friend" to her WOW buddies.
•   NO WE ARE NOT GONNA "LEZ OUT". (That nearly made Hanners choke on her Pocky!) “They were only joking! I'm not even INTO girls!”
•   “It's okay if you are” (of course, Hannelore is mostly asexual)
•   Hanners and Marigold have had the same number of boyfriends – none.  (Hanners, however, thinks Marigold has had more boyfriends than she actually has.)
•   Marigold and Hanners both have the "unaware" thing going for  them.
•   Hanners thinks Marigold is pretty. Hannelore asked Angus if Marigold was pretty. (This, in retrospect, was not one of Hannelore's better ideas.) He agreed. ("I see a smiiiiiiiiile" "No! No you don't! You see nother! Sh-shut up!”)
•   Marigold actually made Hannelore overcome her OCD briefly with a hangover hug – and then made warp 9 to the bathroom to puke! (Angus: "I've literally never seen a human being move that fast.") Hannelore had her own chance to "mother" Marigold over this situation.
•   Marigold promises: no getting the wrong idea and try to make out with her. Hanners promises: won't get so fixated on her that she murders her and makes a suit out of her skin!

Social (Marten and Dora):
•   Asked about payment from Marten for fixing Pintsize.
•   She thinks Marten has weird friends. (Hanners in specific)
•   She tried to get out of going out with Marten & company, but Momo forced her (Okay, Momo didn't force her more than threatened her).
•   Marigold struggled to just come into the bar to meet Marten & company.
•   Social ineptitude sign #1: Marigold asked for Mountain Dew at the Bar
•   Social ineptitude sign #2: She doesn’t really know what kind of beer she likes (a yellow one?). Marten got her a "beer sampler" to try – and that’s when she determined she doesn't like beer much - not even with chocolate in it (and Marty's OK with that).
•   Faye pointed something out at the bar: Marten was the first boy who's given her the time of day in YEARS.
•   She sees herself as a "dumb ol' fat ol' nerd" and she thinks Faye, Marty and company are "cool"
•   She got a bloody nose (okay, "threw a clot!") when Marten dressed up as Ichiro (and she does think Marten makes a good Ichiro).
•   She's not too keen on the thought of Dora wearing Faye's underwear...
•   She doesn't like sudden, unexpected Dora Hugs.
•   Dora still likes to mother Marigold, especially when she looks shell-shocked. Of course, when she found out that she had Sven’s book, she assumed the worst and dressed him down.
•   Marigold came to the YouTube party (in a dress?) after a brief pit-stop for a wardrobe malfunction.
•   Dora promises she'll be up-front with her, and not hide things from her to make her feel better.
•   Dora reveals that they've been talking behind her back all night about her BOOBS. Marigold finds this HILARIOUS. Dora actually offers to take her bra shopping.

Social (Angus and Faye):
•   Angus is her roommate.
•   She apparently threw a party when Angus dumped his last girlfriend. (1363)
•   Marigold declined to go with Angus and company out to the Horrible Revelation for drinks - and was home bored (1429).
•   Marigold thought Angus was an anime-hating "JERKFACE"
•   Faye dubbed her "Mar-bear" (though she hates that)
•   She wasn't sure what to do when Angus asked her to go to a movie. (Shower first?)
•   She didn't realize Angus has known her since college. To Angus, she was the "weird chick who never leaves her room” back in college. His friend Chad was convinced she was a secret fetish model or camwhore…. of course, he was a bit obsessed by this. (Oh my god why are you TELLING me this?!)
•   She convinced Angus to watch some MLG with her by using the Sad Marigold face.
•   She did try to have "nonconsensual snuggles" with Angus, but she covered up. (except for her blush).
•   Angus thinks she looks cute with bangs.
•   She does try to make Angus feel better after the Faye’s Father episode (I don't think you're an insensitive ###hole)
•   "My weirdo shut-in gamer roommate still likes me! HooRAY!" (NOW he's an insensitive ###hole...)
•   She doesn't dance much, but is a pretty good dancer (according to Angus). She always wondered why Angus was going out for coffee.
•   When Angus mentioned "hot chick make it for me", she had thoughts of Magical Maid Mari-chan...
•   She offers to share a bottle of bourbon with Faye and Angus. (Looking back, that wasn't probably a good idea.) She'd never tried bourbon before. (And Momo doesn't have the strength to hold her head up out of the toilet...) Her first sip of bourbon was... interesting. [Houghkk! Glough! Hwah! Hwaugh! *pant* *pant* *pant* NO I'M FINE IT WAS GOOD I LIKE IT] Dinner, drinks AND a show!
•   She's never been out on a date or anything. Even Faye thinks that's criminal.
•   She gave Angus drunk kisses ("I think we're more than that") and a hand to the boob... but he gave her the "just friends" routine...and she ran off crying.
•   She thought Angus actually LIKED her, and that he just feels bad for her because she's pathetic.
•   Marigold still thinks she's an idiot for what she did to Angus... and that he doesn't like her.  He assures her: He likes being her friend... and keep being her friend (and only her friend).
•   The whole "Thing for Angus" was something recent.  See... he was NICE to her. And paid attention. "Nobody's ever done that before."
•   “How what is with Faye?” And that’s when Tai spilled the beans about Fayengus. (She doesn't have a hard-reset button, does she?)
•   Why didn't anyone TELL her about Faye and Angus? People coulda told her. Not like she'd feel any worse. ANGUS coulda told her.
•   She thought INTERNET drama was bad, but this is just RIDICULOUS.

...and that's it for right now.

[Is it cold in here?]

Let's see if I can match your attention to detail:

10 and 30 are duplicates.

17 is contradicted by her argument with Momo-tan about whether to correct malnutrition at a restaurant or at a grocery store.

25, 48, 79, 135, and 219 are about other people.

[jwhouk]

Some of those were intentionally duplicated (by the way, do you know she likes Yaoi Anime? )

[Is it cold in here?]

Besides all the detail, the sheer amount of information you collected puts paid to any lingering ideas that Marigirl can be considered a new character.

[snubnose]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeww !!!! Hanners is not "mostly asexual" !!!! She just cant do it because of her OCD !!!!

And its not 100% clear, but with 95% certainty I can say it was HANNERS who moved with Warp 9 when Marigold started to puke. Because Hanners obviously looked from pose and new position she had just moved very fast (she was sitting on the bed in the previous panel !), plus I dont remember being able to move fast when I felt like puking.

[Heranje]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeww !!!! Hanners is not "mostly asexual" !!!! She just cant do it because of her OCD !!!!

You can be mostly asexual and still "theoretically" be interested in sex and its mechanics. It's the sex drive that is the issue - but yes, I agree that Hanners is probably just asexual in practice, since she has shown that she's interested in sex and has been attracted to men before (the whole fireman thing). But, why "ew"? Of any sexual quirk, I should think asexuality would be the least "ew"-worthy.

[Shremedy]

Sorry if I'm repeating themes from elsewhere, this thread has become to huge to read in one sitting, and I really do want to comment.

Marigold clearly lives inside her own head, isn't concerned much with external appearances.  Hence the condition of her room (before Hurricane Hanners blazed through).  She's accustomed of thinking herself unattractive, and doesn't waste effort being sociable or making herself presentable because she's sure all such efforts are doomed.  Her attraction to Angus was clear, and could have made things difficult for them to live together, once his clear preference for the other busty brunette in the room (Faye) was made apparent.  I'm surprised, if Faye is Angus's "type", why isn't he more interested in Marigold?  Unless maybe for the personal hygiene issues, knowing her flaws up close and personal? 

It was easy for her to let Angus go, she's probably done that innumerable times before for "pretty" friends"; Marigold's probably let go of almost all of her other dreams, too.  Except online in WoW, where failing to shower, rat poops, and melted half-eaten Pocky don't matter.  Angus on the other hand, isn't necessarily being sincere in what he's saying about her -- after all, he still has to live with her, unless he's got an exit plan that will cover all the bills.  I'm not saying he is being dishonest, only that flattery maintains his current, decent, lifestyle.

[TheMorrigan]

Okay, this is my first post (I normally lurk, I signed up mostly to reply here, I'll hit the "Hi, I'm new" forum soon.), but I feel compelled to defend Marigold. Mostly because,  with a few differences, I AM Marigold.

I think there are things going on inside her head that a) are hard if not impossible to explain in comic form and b) she (and Jeph, by extension) may not realize/know about. A majority of her issues seem to be interconnected, and explainable via certain mental illnesses (a hoarding complex, extreme introvertedness, etc.) I'm not saying she's NOT selfish or self absorbed at times, but seriously, who isn't?

Regarding her yelling at Momo, I can't blame her for that. I've been there, too (sans being drunk, and the conversation was with my sister, and not an AI of course). When something happens that's outside my comfort zone and GOES WELL, I'm bursting and want to tell someone about it, and sometimes don't take their feelings into account.

Regarding her trying to "guilt" Angus into making out with her... Well, let's put it this way, desperation can make a girl do crazy things. In Marigold's case, this may include wanting a "pity make-out" for lack of a better term. And crushing a guy because he's nice to you and pays attention to you isn't such a bad reason to have a crush. It's better than just looks or that he's say, a quarterback or something. That's kinda a GOOD reason to have a crush. *shrug*

Sorry for jumping in so late (this is what I get for reading back forums all night) and maybe I'm defensive because it hits close to home, but there's my .02 cents. (lol Verizon math)

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome to the forum!

You alluded to mental health problems. One observation I've seen made about mental patients is that their capacity to interact with and care for others is reduced. It makes sense: if the system has to go into repair or debug mode, it won't be fully online to the external world.

So, a good thought. I still incline, however, to the idea that Marigirl is just spectacularly inexperienced and doesn't know how to befriend others.

[zmeiat_joro]

I think there are things going on inside her head that a) are hard if not impossible to explain in comic form and b) she (and Jeph, by extension) may not realize/know about.

I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name, but which I think is a pretty obvious working hypothesis about what others see from her and the issues that have developed and her school and university experiences. I think even Jeph might not realize it*, but it fits for me. Still, it's just a working hypothesis. I don't think she's necessarily introverted per se, also.

*I'm not sure that if it's that he sought to deliberately have a charater with that disorder, and he just hasn't experienced it personally like he has OCD, that explains certain quirks that don't quite sit right with that hypothesis, if it's true; or that he just wants to decribe what he percieves as a "personality type" which is actually people with that disorder and not a personality type that expalins these. I get the impression that the latter is more probable.

I would be very happy if there's a storyline where it turns out that's actually the problem and she gets treatment for it. I don't think many people if anyone so far in her life has been able to even get a glimpse of what her "fundamental charater" is. I also doubt she's an self-unaware as people seem to think she is, it could be the complete opposite. Or not. We'll see   I'm personally, as in, the impression I give, probably quite different from her -- she can seem like abit of a caricature, I think, especially one maybe done without realizing what you're caricaturing? But Hannelore also is and Jeph has OCD himself so.

[peterh]

Yet another shining example of the layering of QC's main cast characters.

While at times Marigold really really really gets on my nerves, I don't really dislike her. I thought I did in the beginning, though. But when I was young, I've dated, and lived with, someone not unlike her for seven years.

[Is it cold in here?]

I've long theorised that Marigold might have a certain disorder that I will not name

Why not?

[zmeiat_joro]

Because I want to introduce as little bias as possible to the potential discussion.

[jwhouk]

You can say "Aspergers".

Or were you thinking more Borderline Personality?

[Is it cold in here?]

Marigirl doesn't act like a borderline.

[jwhouk]

You're right. More Aspergers-like.

[Carl-E]

I have to disagree with Asperger's (no b, by the way).  She's horrilbly introverted and inexperienced socially, but she's able to deal socially with people - not well, and she panics, but she can attend a party and participate in normal social interaction. 

Both my nephews are autistic, one severely, the other at the Asperger's end of things.  I've also had a few students afflicted with Asperger's.  There are behaviours that Marigold just doesn't have, in particular the lack of eye contact and the repetitive social formality (one of my students wasn't comfortable unless he shook your hand at least twice every conversation).  Also, Asperger's sufferers are usually not  introverted; they're bad at it, but they continuously seek out social interaction, often to the point of annoyance. 

Really, Mari's just a geek. 

[Is it cold in here?]

Well, her habit of putting dangerous snakes in the meat grinder and forming the meat into patties is enough of a mental problem to be called asp burgers syndrome.

[jwhouk]

<snip>

Really, Mari's just a geek. 

...I thought that's what Asperger's Syndrome WAS. "Being a geek."

[Carl-E]

You can be a geek without having Asperger's. 

I don't think the converse is true!

[TheMorrigan]

Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.

>.> Of course, the fact that I've now spent the better part of an hour over two days defending a fictional character probably says something about my own personality. lol

[peterh]

>.> Of course, the fact that I've now spent the better part of an hour over two days defending a fictional character probably says something about my own personality. lol

Oh... I wouldn't worry about that. We do that on here all the time!

[Carl-E]

Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.

What a great analogy!  I had an engine thermostat that was like that - slow to open, quick to close.  The temperature guage practically bounced from 3/4 to 1/4 on the highway...

[Is it cold in here?]

The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.

Yes. Like an inexperienced cook, who either puts in too much spice or too little, Marigirl is an inexperienced socializer.

EDIT: compliments on a good insight. Also, this is why she should avoid alcohol: someone whose inhibition circuits are already out of whack should not be poisoning them.

[jwhouk]

I think she already figured out that last one.

[peterh]

it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations.

This had me worried, so I needed to think about this a bit.
What I was going to say was, I think you are partly right... but I also think there is more to it. In this situation (and this one too), Marigold was completely self-unaware, and Jeph even says so in the accompanying newsposts. But then I realised that this was not quite the opposite of what you say.

And then, when I was running through some coffee, I thought "hey, what Jeph is showing us here is something about Marigold that Marigold herself is completely unaware of."
So yes, Marigold is probably acutely self-aware in situations outside her comfort zone. But she can also be completely oblivious about herself.

I think that is what set her apart. She just doesn't have a clue about herself, and the impact of her own behaviour. It's not that she doesn't CARE, she just has no idea. Sometimes, she seems to already have written herself off. She knows that she is perceived by others to be 'different', but she's got no idea about how... and she's possibly too afraid to try and find out. Rather, she would just change her appearance to more "fit the norm", if she would just know what the norm is and how to do it.

[Is it cold in here?]

I think it's more precise to say she's written off the idea of herself in the mundane world.

[peterh]

Agreed.

[Coco]

Jumping in way late but I skimmed the majority of the thread, so hopefully I'm not overly repetitive. I have to say that I also like Marigold. I was just like her in high school, and I still am to an extent when it comes to social situations. I never know what to say, or what to do with my hands or where to stand. I also have a habit of jumping to the conclusion that I'm not really well-liked but invited out of habit or pity, which makes me un-inclined to accept invitations. Of course the first time I'm not invited is proof that they never liked me at all. See how this all circles around to create a person in complete isolation? The difference between myself and Marigold is that I recognize it, I had some great people in my life to help me handle it, and I've learned how to go through the motions of pretending to be a normal person.

I agree that Marigold has some sort of mental disorder. I work for a company that helps the disabled get various government benefits, and judging by the way her problems interfere with her activities of daily living her problems are fairly serious. She has experienced mood swings, lacks impulse control (with both Dale and Angus), appetite disturbance (nothing but pocky), feelings of guilt or worthlessness (all the time). She also has some signs of a generalized anxiety disorder, based on her fear of social interactions (the anime style intensity of her reaching for the door of the bar first time they hung out jumps to mind) and her general isolationism.
Her poor hygiene and housekeeping are also signs of a serious problem. Our feelings about ourselves are reflected in the way we care for ourselves.

This is crazy old, but someone commented about her wearing a revealing dress, but as someone with a larger than average bosum I can tell you that everything is either revealing, makes you look like a nun, or is extremely painful. Never mention a minimizer bra to me.

[foolsguinea]

Just noticing that with strip 1778 we are at 365 strips since Marigold was introduced in #1413. Of course, that's really a bit over a year....

[Is it cold in here?]

Poor grooming is a depression symptom, yes, it's even seen in animal models of depression. But there's a risk of medicalizing nonconformity.

University labs and software companies are full of hackers who would rather program than shower.

Marigirl had an intense anxiety reaction to entering The Horrible Revelation, but was it disproportionate to doing something entirely outside her comfort zone? It would be fair to compare what she went through to a person from the center of the bell curve preparing to do public speaking.

Impulse control problems? Those were good examples, but she is also capable of long-term disciplined goal-directed behavior. She puts up with situations she doesn't like for the sake of her guild.

[Coco]

I do think we as a society need to be careful about pathologizing non-comformist behavior, but some of her reactions are a bit out of left field. 10 year old pocky and rat poop take her issues a bit beyond laziness/rather be doing something else. I hate housekeeping and I am lazy about it, and we rarely have people so there is no incentive to clean. However, the first sign of mold on a dirty plate is usually all it takes to inspire me to get to work. I really just thought that mild depression is a wee bit more fitting than jumping to a conclusion like Aspergers (the current pop psych diagnosis of choice). I would also argue that a healthy happy human is willing to push their boundaries without turning it into a death march or being bullied into it, as Marigold did in reference to the bar. Pushing boundaries and new experiences (to me) are the cornerstone of a healthy life. I believe this is the reason for high incidence of depression among law and medical students. Long hours of intense study, in poorly lit rooms, little sunshine, little intellectual stimulation that isn't part of the study course etc. Very comparable to diehard WOW players in a sense.

[Is it cold in here?]

...some of her reactions are a bit out of left field. 10 year old pocky and rat poop take her issues a bit beyond laziness/rather be doing something else.

Point well taken!

[TheMorrigan]

I really just thought that mild depression is a wee bit more fitting than jumping to a conclusion like Aspergers (the current pop psych diagnosis of choice).

As a sufferer of depression, general society anxiety, and who knows what else (I'm mental, but not totally diagnosed), I'd agree. Same as with the "pushing boundaries" bit. For various reasons, in order to make myself push the edges of my comfort zone I often need a kick out the door, and sometimes will need to be dragged kicking and screaming (okay, that's not literal, but figurative). I'm... not sure where exactly I was going with this thought, but I kinda felt the need to ramble. lol

Hmmm, perhaps I'm projecting on Marigold too much and am overly-defensive of myself and thus her by extension?  Iunno.
Oh, and I'm a tad confused, what's up with calling Marigold "Marigirl"?

[Is it cold in here?]

Faye said she needed a nickname, and I didn't like any of the ones Faye proposed.

[zmeiat_joro]

You can say "Aspergers".

Or were you thinking more Borderline Personality?

Em, wat? No. Not even close.

'Till later, I'll probably elaborate?

[ZoeB]

And being a girl with glasses and pulled back hair and social anxiety, that's always bothered me. While a lot of us withdrawn nerd girls would like to be a little more outgoing and pretty, we don't all want to become a cookie cutter image of conventional 'beauty'. At least, not most of the time.

Though some of us have even less social experience. Being invited to a party in 8th grade? No. (or any time from  1st to 12th for that matter).

 I'm not sure I would pass this test. But I would try to. I don't want to be so socially stunted. But there's a lot of fear too.

The physical resemblance is uncanny - Marigold at 52, if she didn't have friends like that to help.

[ZoeB]

Following my whole "I am Marigold" line of thinking, it's not so much that Marigold is self-unaware all the time, she's possibly TOO self-aware in social situations. It may not make sense at first glance, but it's a working theory for me. The little filter in your head that says, "Hey, don't do that, you'll make an ass out of yourself" is faulty for her. It either overreacts and keeps Marigold silent and introverted a lot, or (when she's vulnerable or excited) not active enough.

+1 Insightful
I wonder how stereotypical people like us are? The fit's not perfect, but very close. Some alcohol would probably be good at loosening the filters, but the filters won't allow that to happen. If it did, it might be very healing - or very damaging. It's a self-image issue, I know I'm scared to find out what I'd be like with the filter down.

I think it all springs from a low self-image.

Using a comic strip as an aid to introspection and cognitive therapy? Ewww, narcissism... but the resemblance really is scary. That probably means the artist knows someone like that, or Marigold is a composite.

[Elysiana]

Jumping in way late but I skimmed the majority of the thread, so hopefully I'm not overly repetitive. I have to say that I also like Marigold. I was just like her in high school, and I still am to an extent when it comes to social situations. I never know what to say, or what to do with my hands or where to stand. I also have a habit of jumping to the conclusion that I'm not really well-liked but invited out of habit or pity, which makes me un-inclined to accept invitations. Of course the first time I'm not invited is proof that they never liked me at all. See how this all circles around to create a person in complete isolation? The difference between myself and Marigold is that I recognize it, I had some great people in my life to help me handle it, and I've learned how to go through the motions of pretending to be a normal person.

I'm right there with you; like you, I've been able to overcome it a bit. In my case, I am self-deprecating because it hurts less for me to say it about myself than to worry that someone else will beat me to it. It's part of why I've had trouble with relationships in the past - I'd rather assume something is going to go wrong and head it off at the pass than have someone dump me, because it sucks to be dumped. No, I know it doesn't make sense, but to my downward-spiraling mind it does. Low self-esteem is a bitch.

And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold

Really?? Come on now, if they're not low-functioning then you really can't call them MAJOR nerds. Good grief, MOST of the nerds I know are those of the low-functioning kind, and several are much worse than Marigold. I think in that case a lot of it stems from the fact that they are heavily involved in role-playing - whether tabletop, computer game, or LARP - and have no real concept of how the real world is. These are the guys who never shower, never brush their teeth, wear food-stained clothes, are not just obese but wear the weight badly, and yet they STILL put down women who don't weigh 100 pounds and have DD boobs. It's the girls who feel the need to loudly announce how TOTALLY WEIRD they are, and everything they do is done solely to prove that. It's like there's an entire social group that's trying to be as different as possible by conflicting with social norms on purpose, and they don't care if it rubs other people the wrong way - or they're completely oblivious to it.

---

I would venture to say that Marigold's attitude easily stems from the fact that almost all her social interaction used to be online. People are usually not themselves online - especially in gaming. The internet gives you a great place to become anonymous and act however you want with no real thought of consequences. You're completely separated from everyone by a computer screen and you don't have to care whether or not what you say hurts them. I turn off trade chat in WoW occasionally because of all the people being assholes for no reason whatsoever - they're just hurtful on purpose and it sickens me. I've also found that when I'm around that kind of attitude for a long time, I start to pick up on it and I get snide with people. When you're around it all the time, you begin to feel like that's the norm, that people just treat each other however they want. I guarantee that a lot of them would never dream of saying those things to someone in person.

Also, Marigold obviously has a lot of learning to do as far as how things really work. She often inadvertently says things that we know are rude, and she's always shocked and embarrassed to find out that that's the case - she's not trying to be a bitch, she just has no idea that people don't talk to each other that way. She was surprised to find out that the girls in her guild who were taking pics of themselves weren't really as hot as they made themselves out to be, and that she could do a few things to touch up her own photos and make herself look better. It felt like that was the first time anyone really pointed out that the playing field was more even than she thought. I'm sure that Angus telling her she was pretty was probably the first time she got a real compliment, considering the way it made her blush. I'm not at all surprised that she crushed on Angus after hearing that. She'd do anything to look good to him, and really all she can think about is *acceptance*. She's like that little dog Chester from Looney Tunes.

I think she's got a lot of growing to do, and a lot to learn, but she'll get there. The more she interacts with people outside of a computer screen, the better.