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Poll

The Moment Of The Week (Yeah, we're doing it again):

Caring Hannelore cares!
- 9 (7.6%)
"You're a terrible influence, alcohol-induced hallucination."
- 18 (15.1%)
Where's Faye's Bra?
- 7 (5.9%)
Some kind of creepy trophy...
- 1 (0.8%)
Sheer Intensity of Makeouts?
- 4 (3.4%)
Quantum Tunnelling effect
- 9 (7.6%)
Please tell me you did not drink that entire bottle
- 0 (0%)
That was a terrible idea.
- 3 (2.5%)
At least ONE of us isn't gonna remember this in the morning.
- 15 (12.6%)
Did I say anything stupid last night? No, you were fine.
- 6 (5%)
OWLS. Owls? OWLS.
- 38 (31.9%)
So, do you want me to kill Dora for you?
- 6 (5%)
Love you too, mom.
- 3 (2.5%)

Total Members Voted: 102


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Author Topic: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)  (Read 142115 times)

Razgriz

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #500 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:15 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.
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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #501 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:22 »

If he did any of those things with the expectation of some sort of "return on investment" pass to get Faye-booty, then he isn't a very good friend.  Friends help each other because they want to help each other, not because there is some quid pro quo situation. Being nice to someone when they are depressed or hurting is not a free pass into their pants and the perception that it somehow should be is why some guys/girls get mean in this kind of situation (not necessarily Marten).

I don't mean to imply he should expect Faye to give him sex- or any other kind of "return on investment". I don't really think he's like that and I wouldn't much like him if he were. I mean instead to point out that the relationships he's in seem fairly one sided. Martin soothes and listens but no one seems to think Martin ever needs it reciprocated. It's fair enough to point out that he owns not fessing up to his feelings. He owns this for the most part and he definitely owns his bad behavior as of this comic.

But I think when the morning comes she should give him some grace. She should talk to him about why the heck he said those things. Maybe explaining why the hell she rejected him only to start promptly banging someone else is in order-if that's something Martin has been carrying around.  In all this talking about her feelings, I don't recall seeing her really expressing much interest in what he's been feeling-which is obviously like someone who needs to understand and has been hurt.
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #502 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:28 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.

Seconded.  Also, I'm old enough to have been in the workforce (teenage shit jobs) when sexual harassment became a big deal.  I remember from those lovely training videos that the standard for sexual harassment was for the harassee to VERY CLEARLY say "no," and then the harasser ignores that and continues on with whatever they were doing.   There was nothing about "implied no" or "unwanted advances without letting the person know they're unwanted" situations; that came later, and really muddied the waters as far as I'm concerned.  Separating this from the story line, people can't read minds, and therefore are incapable of knowing whether or not an advance is unwanted unless told so.  As a male, I've known a few of the famous "nice guys" myself, and they're assholes.  However, I've misread situations before and gone in for a kiss on a girl I thought was interested but soon discovered otherwise.  My intentions were pure, so am I a sexual harasser?
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AshiHalfangel

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #503 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:29 »

I'm sorry, I might've not made myself clear on my earlier post. I didn't mean to state that Marten had groped Faye because of the fact that Marten's other hand wasn't seen. For all we know, he's picking his ass. I don't know..who knows unless it's stated. But I'm not going to say that it's sexual harrassment. He's drunk...he's heart broken. That doesn't excuse his behavior and while it's very uncharacteristic to act that way, I highly doubt that he would try to force himself on her.

Now if Marten had still gone after her after she had punched him out then I would classify that as harrassment. I know that there is such a thing as verbal sexual harrassment in example at the working field. That's wrong and should a person ever come across such a situation, get help...or a Faye punch could work as well...but not recommended if you want your job..but still effective I'm sure. Marten in my opinion is just in a drunken stupor and feeling sorry for himself and found Faye as the target since it seems that he has a bit of a grudge that he had hidden from her. I think once Faye cools down and Marten regains consciousness and sobers up that a heart to heart is in motion.
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #504 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:38 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.

Seconded.  Also, I'm old enough to have been in the workforce (teenage shit jobs) when sexual harassment became a big deal.  I remember from those lovely training videos that the standard for sexual harassment was for the harassee to VERY CLEARLY say "no," and then the harasser ignores that and continues on with whatever they were doing.   There was nothing about "implied no" or "unwanted advances without letting the person know they're unwanted" situations; that came later, and really muddied the waters as far as I'm concerned.  Separating this from the story line, people can't read minds, and therefore are incapable of knowing whether or not an advance is unwanted unless told so.  As a male, I've known a few of the famous "nice guys" myself, and they're assholes.  However, I've misread situations before and gone in for a kiss on a girl I thought was interested but soon discovered otherwise.  My intentions were pure, so am I a sexual harasser?

By the legal definition, yes.

Your intent/motives don't count for shit. Even a 3rd party that doesn't like what they saw can report you. Even if the woman that was the target of your attentions actually liked what you were doing. As long as someone there wasn't happy, whether your intent was malicious or not, you are guilty.

Edit for clarity: And no, I've never been accused or convicted of sexual harassment, so you can't just pass this off as sour grapes. It's just literally how the laws are set up.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 22:40 by Overkillengine »
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #505 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:40 »

I wonder if Jeph will go darker tonight.

I wonder how long before the thread gets locked if he does.
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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #506 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:42 »

Harassment is not generally a *single* instance of misbehavior, that would be characterized more accurately as a sexual molestation or assault.  Harassment is more accurately described as a series of events or a more pervasive creation of a hostile environment, such as in a work situation, which can involve verbal comments, persistent come on's ect. and don't necessarily have to involve a sexual assault to be actionable.  And yes, you are generally given a chance to hear "NO" in regards to a verbal advance. After that, it's breaching the "harassment" line. No one is a mind reader-someone's level of "unhappiness" is not the meter in that situation. Physical touching, especially depending on where, is an exception. For example, you don't have to say "no" in order have a right to not be fondled or otherwise sexually violated. But just saying "give me a kiss..." is hardly an assault.

His verbal actions alone would not constitute assault or molestation and as this is not a work situation "harassment" wouldn't be the appropriate term. The one more likely to be charged, based on what we can see here, would be Faye, as she hit Martin, when she could have simply left the apartment or sought another option. Since this is a domestic situation, both would likely be taken in for questioning as that is the usual protocol in DV situations these days.  I could be wrong, but I was a DV educator and case worker for several years and have some familiarity with the topic.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 22:47 by mira »
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #507 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:42 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.

Seconded.  Also, I'm old enough to have been in the workforce (teenage shit jobs) when sexual harassment became a big deal.  I remember from those lovely training videos that the standard for sexual harassment was for the harassee to VERY CLEARLY say "no," and then the harasser ignores that and continues on with whatever they were doing.   There was nothing about "implied no" or "unwanted advances without letting the person know they're unwanted" situations; that came later, and really muddied the waters as far as I'm concerned.  Separating this from the story line, people can't read minds, and therefore are incapable of knowing whether or not an advance is unwanted unless told so.  As a male, I've known a few of the famous "nice guys" myself, and they're assholes.  However, I've misread situations before and gone in for a kiss on a girl I thought was interested but soon discovered otherwise.  My intentions were pure, so am I a sexual harasser?

By the legal definition, yes.

Your intent/motives don't count for shit. Even a 3rd party that doesn't like what they saw can report you. Even if the woman that was the target of your attentions actually liked what you were doing. As long as someone there wasn't happy, whether your intent was malicious or not, you are guilty.

Edit for clarity: And no, I've never been accused or convicted of sexual harassment, so you can't just pass this off as sour grapes. It's just literally how the laws are set up.

Well then, that's just fucking stupid.  So if I'm with my wife of almost ten years, and I give her a playful tap on the butt or a quick smooch, and someone across the street doesn't like it, they can report me to the police and I can be cited for sexual harassment?  

Again, fucking stupid.

EDIT: This came across as angrier than it was intended to, and since I'm new I didn't want to give the impression of some crazed loony foaming at the house in my mother's basement.  I'm actually in my own basement. 
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 22:49 by Armadillo »
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cesariojpn

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #508 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:50 »

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Rusty

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #509 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:50 »

If i give you a dickbroom, is that sexual harrassment?


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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #510 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:52 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.

Seconded.  Also, I'm old enough to have been in the workforce (teenage shit jobs) when sexual harassment became a big deal.  I remember from those lovely training videos that the standard for sexual harassment was for the harassee to VERY CLEARLY say "no," and then the harasser ignores that and continues on with whatever they were doing.   There was nothing about "implied no" or "unwanted advances without letting the person know they're unwanted" situations; that came later, and really muddied the waters as far as I'm concerned.  Separating this from the story line, people can't read minds, and therefore are incapable of knowing whether or not an advance is unwanted unless told so.  As a male, I've known a few of the famous "nice guys" myself, and they're assholes.  However, I've misread situations before and gone in for a kiss on a girl I thought was interested but soon discovered otherwise.  My intentions were pure, so am I a sexual harasser?

By the legal definition, yes.

Your intent/motives don't count for shit. Even a 3rd party that doesn't like what they saw can report you. Even if the woman that was the target of your attentions actually liked what you were doing. As long as someone there wasn't happy, whether your intent was malicious or not, you are guilty.

Edit for clarity: And no, I've never been accused or convicted of sexual harassment, so you can't just pass this off as sour grapes. It's just literally how the laws are set up.

Well then, that's just fucking stupid.  So if I'm with my wife of almost ten years, and I give her a playful tap on the butt or a quick smooch, and someone across the street doesn't like it, they can report me to the police and I can be cited for sexual harassment?  

Again, fucking stupid.

Quote stream here...

Anyway, you're not violating any law by smooching your wife or smacking her butt in public! This seems like a gross over interpretation of what it means to "harass".  We even have a right to engage in PDA's provided they do not get sexually graphic. In some cities, that just means you wear a non thong bathing suit, at least, while doing it and keep all your junk in side it.  Heck, if someone's "unhappiness" on the street makes the difference then we'd quickly be in a police state.  
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #511 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:52 »

If i give you a dickbroom, is that sexual harrassment?




That depends.  Is the person eating at the time?
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Rusty

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #512 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:55 »

If i give you a dickbroom, is that sexual harrassment?




That depends.  Is the person eating at the time?

is a frosty considered eating or drinking?
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #513 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:56 »

If i give you a dickbroom, is that sexual harrassment?




That depends.  Is the person eating at the time?

is a frosty considered eating or drinking?

Eating at first, drinking twenty minutes later.
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #514 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:57 »

Harassment is not generally a *single* instance of misbehavior, that would be characterized more accurately as a sexual molestation or assault.  Harassment is more accurately described as a series of events or a more pervasive creation of a hostile environment, such as in a work situation, which can involve verbal comments, persistent come on's ect. and don't necessarily have to involve a sexual assault to be actionable.  And yes, you are generally given a chance to hear "NO" in regards to a verbal advance. After that, it's breaching the "harassment" line. No one is a mind reader-someone's level of "unhappiness" is not the meter in that situation. Physical touching, especially depending on where, is an exception. For example, you don't have to say "no" in order have a right to not be fondled or otherwise sexually violated. But just saying "give me a kiss..." is hardly an assault.

His verbal actions alone would not constitute assault or molestation and as this is not a work situation "harassment" wouldn't be the appropriate term. The one more likely to be charged, based on what we can see here, would be Faye, as she hit Martin, when she could have simply left the apartment or sought another option. Since this is a domestic situation, both would likely be taken in for questioning as that is the usual protocol in DV situations these days.  I could be wrong, but I was a DV educator and case worker for several years and have some familiarity with the topic.

True, harassment law is generally more applicable to employment situations, as it was mainly created to keep scumbags from using access to continued employment/advancement as a form of extortion.

But in those situations, all it takes is one screw up or misinterpretation that in more than a few States to allow an employer to terminate you- and you have little to no recourse other than litigation that will likely go nowhere, and your career is already tainted.
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tHEfOOL

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #515 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:57 »

Oh my god, the only reason i am still reading this is beecause i don't want to miss something that's actually noteworthy being said!

how fucking continuous is this going to get

I totally agree with this, are you people in middle school? no matter how many times you scream the same exact argument at each other, anyone who is gonna change their mind has either already changed their mind or is in neutral ground and not sure which side they are on so they won't change anyway. (I consider myself a Neutral)

So far we have this list of information:

Pro Faye
1. She has said no in the past and although she didn't expressly say it now her body langage did. so what marten was doing can be construed as harrassment/sexual harrasment.

2. Marten was being a bit of an ass-hat and probably deserved physical removal from Faye, whether she punched him or shoved him we don't know so it is off panel.

3. Marten may or may not have been going for a grope or a kiss, but with everything off frame, and with the STILL pictures we can't really tell. But if he was physical action on Faye's part is easily justified (be it a punch or a shove).

4. And just for the record, if Marten was implying that Faye owed him anything she didn't, she had made it perfectly clear in the past that they would never be more than friends and he had agreed to it. By most people's standards that discussion ended there and anything added is far after/off of the fact.


Pro Marten
1. Right now his life is a pile of shit, he's got a dead end job, he's not doing what he loves (music), and his girlfriend (while lately a hassle and a bit paranoid) dumped him because he finally manned up and stood up for himself.

2. He is incredibly drunk right now, as has been stated alcohol is a mind poison, it does not excuse his actions but with that much booze in his toothpick of a frame he is not thinking clearly, not to mention his behavior is totally out of character.

3. Faye was indead calling the kettle black when she walked in and talked down to him for being so drunk.

4. Faye probably coulda stepped back or to the side and he woulda fallen on his face with the state he was in.

5. Even though Faye could probably very successfully file charges of sexual harrasment on Marten, he could just as easily file charges of harrassment/assault against her for hitting/shoving/striking him.


So far they both aren't saints, now i beg of you with 8 pages of the same arguments shouted over and over read today, if you don't have something new to add to the conversation please just stop talking.

/rantbomb
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 23:06 by tHEfOOL »
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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #516 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:58 »

True, harassment law is generally more applicable to employment situations, as it was mainly created to keep scumbags from using access to continued employment/advancement as a form of extortion.

But in those situations, all it takes is one screw up or misinterpretation that in more than a few States to allow an employer to terminate you- and you have little to no recourse other than litigation that will likely go nowhere, and your career is already tainted.

Or you have your own lawsuit to file.  In any case, unless it's stalking, most "harassment" cases involve a work situation. In my classes on the subject we taught that harassment is not a single instance and in case law this is widely supported.

« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 23:01 by mira »
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Rusty

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #517 on: 15 Dec 2010, 22:59 »

If i give you a dickbroom, is that sexual harrassment?




That depends.  Is the person eating at the time?

is a frosty considered eating or drinking?

Eating at first, drinking twenty minutes later.

or blown up, in pintsize's case
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Nodaisho

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #518 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:00 »

How does anyone ever think a legal discussion pertaining to a comic is a good idea?
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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #519 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:03 »

How does anyone ever think a legal discussion pertaining to a comic is a good idea?

LOL.  I've had my bit to say about Martin and Faye and thought I could help cool the fires on the other topic. I guess I just saw the "is it harassment" debate and thought I could settle it since it's an area of personal expertise.  But your point if pretty valid nonetheless.  :)
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Rusty

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #520 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:03 »

How does anyone ever think a legal discussion pertaining to a comic is a good idea?

The same reason I once went outside in teh snow to pee when theres a perfectly good toilet over there.


nobody knows.



'Cept these guys cant write their name in it.
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #521 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:03 »

Good ideas and entertaining ideas (to the person(s) having the discussion) are rarely the same thing.  :psyduck:


Edit: forgot a plural. FFFfffffffffffffffffffffffffff....
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #522 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:05 »

How does anyone ever think a legal discussion pertaining to a comic is a good idea?

I don't think anyone ever said it was a GOOD idea. 

I mean, strapping a piece of thin fabric to your back and then jumping out of an AIRBORNE PLANE isn't really a good idea, but a lot of people seem to enjoy it.
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LeeC

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #523 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:07 »

I still maintain he was joking but it was terribly insensitive and faye decked him.  Which would be in character for both of them.  So lets move on. :psyduck:
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #524 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:12 »

I still maintain he was joking but it was terribly insensitive and faye decked him.  Which would be in character for both of them.  So lets move on. :psyduck:

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
   -Oscar Wilde


Granted, not all of what he said was completely correct, so he only got decked!  :psyduck:



...something compelling about that.  :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck:
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Nodaisho

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #525 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:16 »

How does anyone ever think a legal discussion pertaining to a comic is a good idea?

I don't think anyone ever said it was a GOOD idea. 

I mean, strapping a piece of thin fabric to your back and then jumping out of an AIRBORNE PLANE isn't really a good idea, but a lot of people seem to enjoy it.
Except this is more like the tone-deaf people that sing at the top of their lungs in subway cars. All-around terrible for everyone but themselves.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #526 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:19 »

my cat does this, he is deaf and just walks around meowing loudly and doing nothing.
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #527 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:22 »

my cat does this, he is deaf and just walks around meowing loudly and doing nothing.

But cats do that when they aren't deaf as well.

But I just ignore them until they do something that actually entertains me.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 23:24 by Overkillengine »
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Method of Madness

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #528 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:34 »

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been posed, but has anyone brought of the double standard?  For instance, let's say after Faye broke up with Sven, she got drunk.  Really drunk.  (She probably did, but bear with me)  She then goes to Martin, who's still with Dora at the time.  For whatever reason, she decides to make a move on Marten, and perhaps gets a bit handsy and makes similar comments that Marten made.

And Marten steps back and knocks her out.  Is this acceptable?  Fuck no.

Am I saying the situations are the same?  No.  But it's a little disturbing how people seem to think Faye's punching Marten was not, at the very least, a gross overreaction.

 :psyduck: Psyduck agrees, I'm sure.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #529 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:37 »

One thing to keep in mind is that Marten has been drinking alone while having reason to be depressed for, like, probably hours now since Hanners left.  Meanwhile, Faye has been out making out with Angus.  That set off my 'shouldn't you be with Marten?  He's always been there for you' alarms yesterday and I'm sober and only thought about it for a minute.  Poor guy's super drunk and had a long time to build up resentment.  'Why is Faye with Angus and not here' is a question that could reasonably lead a drunk person to reach the conclusions he has.  Does that excuse his behavior?  No.  But really, Faye made out with Angus the whole night the day after an earth-shattering moment for her best friend.  I don't know about you guys, but when bad things happen to people, friends are supposed to be there for them, not show up after hours of drinking alone and brooding to receive the brunt of their mood and then play the victim when their friend is mean.
I don't think this is really fair to Faye. Recall, too, that Faye has been left sitting on her own in the dumps while Marten was out with Dora—in fact, as memory serves, that's what perciptated the whole karaoke—go to Sven's place—sleep with him thing.

Trouble is, Faye may very well think as you do the next day. And she'd be wrong. Being a friend does not equal being a keeper of some sort. If you need that, it's time for you to be hauled off to an institution.

Of course, Faye may balance any guilt she feels (earned or not) with her own mistaken taking-to-heart the things Marten said to her. Truth? Drunks never speak the truth—for one thing, as a rule, everything is always skewed. In this case, it's all 'bout Poor Marten. However, Poor Marten is not Marten. He's that selfish little twerp we usually keep under lock and key, and rightly so. Otherwise, we'd never be able to coexist.

Alcohol is not truth serum, it's hyperbole juice.

I'll add that line to my sig, if that's ok with the author...
Ah, to heli with her. Just take it. :evil:

Edit: Madness, if Faye has a chance of overpowering Marten, or even getting in a wrestling match over his mantenna array, then he's got my permission to deck her ass.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 23:42 by raoullefere »
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #530 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:42 »

No comic ... no comic ... F5 ... F5 ...

OMG too much analyzation.

Then again, I participated at that yesterday.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #531 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:43 »

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been posed, but has anyone brought of the double standard?  For instance, let's say after Faye broke up with Sven, she got drunk.  Really drunk.  (She probably did, but bear with me)  She then goes to Martin, who's still with Dora at the time.  For whatever reason, she decides to make a move on Marten, and perhaps gets a bit handsy and makes similar comments that Marten made.

And Marten steps back and knocks her out.  Is this acceptable?  Fuck no.

Am I saying the situations are the same?  No.  But it's a little disturbing how people seem to think Faye's punching Marten was not, at the very least, a gross overreaction.

 :psyduck: Psyduck agrees, I'm sure.

I agree. And I think the law would too (in both scenarios-hitting someone is pretty flat out obvious and thus easy to prosecute-sexual intimidation? Not as much.) But I highly doubt these folks would call the police on each other. The strip has demonstrated they tolerate physical violence. I think it's interesting that Dora once told Faye her paranoia about all things male was a bigger problem than she realized (ie. Faye saw predators everywhere that were gonna grab her-even in Martin pre dinner with his mom). This may be the final realization of that problem for her.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #532 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:46 »

(ie. Faye saw predators everywhere that were gonna grab her-even in Martin pre dinner with his mom)
I don't suppose it's a stretch to suggest that Faye's mom wasn't too helpful in this matter.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #533 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:49 »

One thing to keep in mind is that Marten has been drinking alone while having reason to be depressed for, like, probably hours now since Hanners left.  Meanwhile, Faye has been out making out with Angus.  That set off my 'shouldn't you be with Marten?  He's always been there for you' alarms yesterday and I'm sober and only thought about it for a minute.  Poor guy's super drunk and had a long time to build up resentment.  'Why is Faye with Angus and not here' is a question that could reasonably lead a drunk person to reach the conclusions he has.  Does that excuse his behavior?  No.  But really, Faye made out with Angus the whole night the day after an earth-shattering moment for her best friend.  I don't know about you guys, but when bad things happen to people, friends are supposed to be there for them, not show up after hours of drinking alone and brooding to receive the brunt of their mood and then play the victim when their friend is mean.
I don't think this is really fair to Faye. Recall, too, that Faye has been left sitting on her own in the dumps while Marten was out with Dora—in fact, as memory serves, that's what perciptated the whole karaoke—go to Sven's place—sleep with him thing.

I seem to recall Marten being there for Faye any time she needed him.  Literally any time.  The Sven-cheating thing, the scared-over-Angus thing.  Even after the first Dora-Kiss he went right to Faye and let her know, showing he cared about her.

Faye's reaction to Marten being in emotional peril for the first time ever was to cut her evening making out with Angus slightly short.  Imagine if Marten's response to Faye being sad was 'that's nice, bye!  Going to Dora's place'.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #534 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:50 »

I don't think we'll see concussions. Faye punched a lot more and way harder (it has to be harder to punch a non-drunk person to the ground) and we never saw anything coming near to the realistic consequences of such beatings. 

I always felt the punches were overdone for comedic effect, otherwise Marten would never have stayed with her or just kicked her out of his apartment. Seriously, that would have been serious abuse, and their relationship could not have developed that way.

You're probably right, but still, it wouldn't be the first time a character has had to deal with a concussion in the strip.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #535 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:52 »

Daaaaaaaaaaang. Shit just got real in QC!

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #536 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:55 »

my cat does this, he is deaf and just walks around meowing loudly and doing nothing.

But cats do that when they aren't deaf as well.

But I just ignore them until they do something that actually entertains me.

we have another cat that isnt deaf and she meows only when she is hungry or want attention.  This little dude is singing as he does everything.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #537 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:55 »

I don't think I can win on the harassment debate, and in the interest of not making the mods ban me/everyone I'll just let that one slide with a 'I respectfully disagree'.  I honestly don't have enough experience in this field to argue it, but in my books what he did was a jerk move but in no way illegal. and he was disproportionally punished for it.

Yeah, I'm not clear where the "sexual harassment" talk is coming from. I have to assume these people are posting from somewhere outside the United States, because in the United States sexual harassment only applies to the work place. And in many states Marten would actually have to be Faye's superior or supervisor in order for sexual harassment to even possibly exist.

And if someone does live in a country where drunkenly propositioning a girl actually constitutes sexual harassment please let me know. 'Cause that's a country I never want to visit. God knows what other fucked up laws they've got on the books.

With that being said: Really no question Marten is being a dick here. And Faye hitting people when they're being dicks is pretty much par for the course. And readers treating Faye's comedic punches as if they were an abusive reality is even more par for the course. Welcome to Questionable Content.

Final thought: I'm unhappy with this strip because Marten seems completely out of character to me. And I don't think the booze justifies it.

I seem to recall Marten being there for Faye any time she needed him.  Literally any time.  The Sven-cheating thing, the scared-over-Angus thing.  Even after the first Dora-Kiss he went right to Faye and let her know, showing he cared about her.

Faye's reaction to Marten being in emotional peril for the first time ever was to cut her evening making out with Angus slightly short.  Imagine if Marten's response to Faye being sad was 'that's nice, bye!  Going to Dora's place'.

Actually, the first thing Faye did was stay up and wait for Marten to get home. And then they talked about it.

Then the next day she cut her plans short so that she could go and check to see how Marten was doing.

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #538 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:58 »

Daaaaaaaaaaang. Shit just got real in QC!

Oh, shit's been real for quite a few strips now...



I guess what I really mean is: Please, please Mr. Jeph sir, please stop making the fictional characters that we all obsess about and live vicariously through stop saying mean things to each other.

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #539 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:59 »

I seem to recall Marten being there for Faye any time she needed him.  Literally any time.  The Sven-cheating thing, the scared-over-Angus thing.  Even after the first Dora-Kiss he went right to Faye and let her know, showing he cared about her.

Faye's reaction to Marten being in emotional peril for the first time ever was to cut her evening making out with Angus slightly short.  Imagine if Marten's response to Faye being sad was 'that's nice, bye!  Going to Dora's place'.

Actually, the first thing Faye did was stay up and wait for Marten to get home. And then they talked about it.

Then the next day she cut her plans short so that she could go and check to see how Marten was doing.

Faye stayed up to see what happened and then Marten went right to bed.  In the morning they talked for a few minutes and he said 'don't hurt Dora'.  Then Faye went to work, then out with Angus for hot make-outs.  She cut her plans slightly short (she wasn't going to stay the night and bang him or anything, it couldn't have been more than an hour shorter than she'd usually leave) to go and see how Marten was doing.  Her first words through the door weren't 'how do you feel', they were 'OMG you drank HOW MUCH?'.  Remember the big deal when Marten accidentally implied Faye was an alcoholic?  Yeah, she kind of did the same thing here, meaning she messed up twice as a 'friend'.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #540 on: 15 Dec 2010, 23:59 »

Alright, just clarifying, but there are viewpoints here other than "Marten deserved to get punched" and "Faye is a terrible friend", right?  Because neither of those ring true to me.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #541 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:01 »

actually its pretty incharacter if you take in the fact he gets extra snarky and makes dickish jokes, hell even at the bar after "the talk" we was pretty much being like this.

With this situation I think he is just more or less venting his anger via booze and made an insensitive joke.

Alright, just clarifying, but there are viewpoints here other than "Marten deserved to get punched" and "Faye is a terrible friend", right?  Because neither of those ring true to me.
THANK YOU! ive been saying that forever!
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #542 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:04 »

Faye stayed up to see what happened and then Marten went right to bed.  In the morning they talked for a few minutes and he said 'don't hurt Dora'.  Then Faye went to work, then out with Angus for hot make-outs.  She cut her plans slightly short (she wasn't going to stay the night and bang him or anything, it couldn't have been more than an hour shorter than she'd usually leave) to go and see how Marten was doing.  Her first words through the door weren't 'how do you feel', they were 'OMG you drank HOW MUCH?'.  Remember the big deal when Marten accidentally implied Faye was an alcoholic?  Yeah, she kind of did the same thing here, meaning she messed up twice as a 'friend'.

(1) Alcoholic does not mean "got drunk". Nor does it mean "got really drunk". Nothing Faye said implied alcoholism.

(2) You're just factually incorrect. They talked at CoD. She stayed up and made herself available again later that evening. Then they talked again the next morning. Then she came home early in case he needed to talk again. The only way she could make herself more available would be to tether herself to Marty and follow him around all day.

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #543 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:08 »

I think his attitude is because of the alcohol induced hallucination.  He said it was a bad influence. We just didn't know how bad.
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Razgriz

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #544 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:08 »

Faye stayed up to see what happened and then Marten went right to bed.  In the morning they talked for a few minutes and he said 'don't hurt Dora'.  Then Faye went to work, then out with Angus for hot make-outs.  She cut her plans slightly short (she wasn't going to stay the night and bang him or anything, it couldn't have been more than an hour shorter than she'd usually leave) to go and see how Marten was doing.  Her first words through the door weren't 'how do you feel', they were 'OMG you drank HOW MUCH?'.  Remember the big deal when Marten accidentally implied Faye was an alcoholic?  Yeah, she kind of did the same thing here, meaning she messed up twice as a 'friend'.

(1) Alcoholic does not mean "got drunk". Nor does it mean "got really drunk". Nothing Faye said implied alcoholism.

(2) You're just factually incorrect. They talked at CoD. She stayed up and made herself available again later that evening. Then they talked again the next morning. Then she came home early in case he needed to talk again. The only way she could make herself more available would be to tether herself to Marty and follow him around all day.

The talk at CoD was prior to Marten realizing there was actually a problem, and even then their 'talk' was Faye saying 'WOW you're bitter'.  Gold medal for understanding to: not Faye.  And despite your strawman, there's one key way she could have helped Marten out.  'Sorry Angus, I can't come make out with you tonight.  Marten needs me, I'm going to drink with him and Hanners.  How about we get together tomorrow night instead?"

Again, this is like Marten saying "Oh, sorry that you're worried about Angus, Faye, but I'm making out with Dora in here. I'll come talk to you in a few hours" and slamming the bedroom door in her face after she knocked that one night.
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mira

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #545 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:10 »

I seem to recall Marten being there for Faye any time she needed him.  Literally any time.  The Sven-cheating thing, the scared-over-Angus thing.  Even after the first Dora-Kiss he went right to Faye and let her know, showing he cared about her.

Faye's reaction to Marten being in emotional peril for the first time ever was to cut her evening making out with Angus slightly short.  Imagine if Marten's response to Faye being sad was 'that's nice, bye!  Going to Dora's place'.

Yeah, I agree.  I have noted that his relationships seem rather one sided all in all. Dora freaks the hell out and dumps him the first time he really asserts himself with her and Faye punches him when she could have simply dropped him on his drunken ass. He owns his bad behavior and his poor choice of words but as I've said before, where is the grace for Martin in all of this? Is he only worth a damn when one of these girls has something to whine about to him?
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #546 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:14 »

if today is a yelling bird comic im going to shit my pants before my finals.
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Razgriz

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #547 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:17 »

if today is a yelling bird comic im going to shit my pants before my finals.

I dunno, based on twitter Jeph has been drawing for awhile.  Isn't Yelling Bird just copy and paste?
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #548 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:17 »

I dont tweet, but thanks for the info  :-)
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #549 on: 16 Dec 2010, 00:18 »

Again, this is like Marten saying "Oh, sorry that you're worried about Angus, Faye, but I'm making out with Dora in here. I'll come talk to you in a few hours" and slamming the bedroom door in her face after she knocked that one night.

Okay, let's use that situation as an example. What does Marten do in the 24 hours after that?

(1) He makes himself available immediately to Faye. (Just like Faye did for him.)

(2) Marten leaves the apartment and goes for a walk. (We'll give him a pass since the Dora stuff went down. Faye, of course, remained available until Marten went to bed.)

(3) Marten has a brief conversation with Faye in the morning. (Just like Faye did with him.)

(4) Marten doesn't talk to Faye all that day. (Just like Faye did.)

(5) In fact, Marten doesn't get home that next night until very late. We see him walking through the front door after Hannelore got back from her date with Sven. (In other words, he gets home right around the same time Faye did.)

You've got a double-standard here. Even your own example demonstrates that you're wrong about this.
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