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Poll

What's on for the end of the week?

4 panels of embarrassed silence
- 18 (20.7%)
Running away for ever
- 1 (1.1%)
Bitter recriminations
- 2 (2.3%)
Hugs for closure and acceptance
- 25 (28.7%)
Make-up makeout!
- 4 (4.6%)
Rest of cast jump out shouting "Surprise!"
- 3 (3.4%)
We see something happening in the party
- 4 (4.6%)
Tai rushes out and shoves Marten aside
- 8 (9.2%)
AnthroPCs
- 9 (10.3%)
Jeph has his first day off for years, & no guest strip either
- 13 (14.9%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)  (Read 151748 times)

Skaltura

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #100 on: 05 Jul 2011, 07:52 »

I feel that commenting on the breakup and who's at fault is prime schmuck bait, so I will restrict myself to saying that I really like the way Dora's drawn today, especially the legs and her expression in panel 3!
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #101 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:01 »

"A lot of it was him too." I barely noticed that line the first time. She adds it in response to Jim, as sort of a sidenote, to counterbalance her own bias. There are enough people in the forum who do think Marten has issues for it to not be a black and white badguy situation. He did nothing deliberate or hurtful, but the way he handled issues didn't help. He may just have acted as a trigger.

Also, if someone who was always passive suddenly blew up and scared the shit out of me, I would not call it "standing up for himself". Such a significant change in behaviour, whether it's going from aggressive to silent, or silent to aggressive, or happy to sad means more than the behaviour itself. It says the relationship isn't what it used to be. When it occurs after building tensions and multiple fights, few people would say,"Oh, this is a good sign."

So now that Dora has acknowledged that it was her issues, made it "sound like it was totally [her] fault" and admitted that she has to solve this problem before it happens again (panel, 3), what more must be done? From a utilitarian point of view, nothing. She's not hurting anyone right now except maybe Jim (who she woulda hurt worse later).

To be fair, what bothers me is that Dora can't separate her feelings from her behaviour. It comes off as excusey.


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DSL

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #102 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:21 »

Relative to Dora's first comment ... Wonder if anyone has told her offscreen that M. did sorta try ...
FAYE: "Oh, by the way, assbutt, Marty stopped by the shop the other day while you were moving."
HANNERS : "And we tortured a cyborg nerd who was stalking me ... I wasn't supposed to say that, was I?"
RAVEN: "Aw, I didn't get a boob-grab from the mechanical hand."
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #103 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:26 »

Cross-posting to here, as I suspect the other thread may be locked soon:

"A lot of it was him too"

Wtf?  Seriously?  She think it was his fault too?

It was 100% her fault.  Every single part of that break up belongs to Dora.  Crazy psycho women.  I used to like her, now I cannot stand her.  Kudos for making her so realistic as to dredge up memories of the complete nutjobs I've met in my life.

More Hanners, Marigold, Faye, less psycho women that screws over good guys in the name of "waah, waah, nobody loves me."  Marten puts up with ALL her insecurities, buys her gifts, treats her right and she goes all emo on him.

*throws hands up in the air and stomps off*

FYI, When Marty hooked up with Dora and NOT Faye, oh so long ago, I almost gave up on the comic, also, hai, I am new here.

I wouldn't have actually posted, but 1962 makes me wanna Fayepunch someone.

The breakup itself was 100% Dora's insecurities, but come on. That relationship was doomed from the start because Marten had zero backbone to lay down the ground rules to begin with.

What is Dora's biggest named criticism of Marten other than the Faye pining? His lack of decisiveness on a consistent basis. Dora had to pull some pretty insane shit to get Marten to even think about standing up to her.

In all honesty, no woman with any self respect would stay in a relationship with Marten for very long anyway, simply because he is incapable of doing anything on his own. In short: Marten isn't even really an adult, he's an overgrown boy that needs a mother-figure to tell him what to do every minute of every day.
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #104 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:36 »

Yes, but crazy person is still crazy.

Smoke and mirrors might show Marten's issues.  But Dora is still a nutjob.  What a lot of people are labeling passive here is just plain being nice and perhaps putting someone else's wants ahead of your own.  Something you need to do occasionally to make a relationship work.

I am not saying all of Marten's behavior is excusable, he is a bit passive on some things.  But it isn't exactly like he is a giant ball of passivity and nothing else.  He is a genuinely nice guy, he cares for Dora, loves(d) her, none of the fights they have are initiated by him and he doesn't really do anything wrong.  Might be a bit of a blanket statement.  But blaming the relationship not working due to Marten, ludicrous.  Plus, you guys lay on the passive thing too much, when Dora goes nuts over something and marten states "fuck this, I am leaving" or something to that extent, that is NOT being passive.  Passive would just give up and say, yes ma'am.

100% of the fault is Dora's emoness.  If she grows up a little, she might be able to have a real relationship, something she (admittedly) has never had.

Long story short:

Dora is whack.

Nice does not equate to passive.

Also, "In all honesty, no woman with any self respect would stay in a relationship with Marten for very long anyway, simply because he is incapable of doing anything on his own. In short: Marten isn't even really an adult, he's an overgrown boy that needs a mother-figure to tell him what to do every minute of every day."

I think you need to go back and read the comic again.  Marten is pretty fleshed out, he has mommy issues, but he does most things on his own.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 08:42 by Mightyanvil »
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #105 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:37 »

In all honesty, no woman with any self respect would stay in a relationship with Marten for very long anyway, simply because he is incapable of doing anything on his own. In short: Marten isn't even really an adult, he's an overgrown boy that needs a mother-figure to tell him what to do every minute of every day.
True that. For example, he was unable to go and get a haircut without refering to Dora first.

Oh, wait...
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #106 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:43 »

I'm waiting for the comic where Marten and Jim meet.
I can just see it, Marten walks in, just as Jim is leaving having completed the baking for C.o.D. and about to deliver it. Padma says "Hey Marten." Jim looks up, with a couple of beat panels before saying "You had one lucky escape there kid." Jim leaves, with Marten looks a little perplexed.

Of course, now that I've said it, it won't happen now.  :laugh:
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Monkey Says Yes

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #107 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:47 »

Man, I feel sad now.  Poor Dora.  Seems like she's drifting into the friends zone with Jim there.
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #108 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:49 »

Hmm, I may be a bit on the bitter side.

For all it is a comic, I would like to see Dora experience some consequences for her actions.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #109 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:51 »

Yes, but crazy person is still crazy.

Smoke and mirrors might show Marten's issues.  But Dora is still a nutjob.  What a lot of people are labeling passive here is just plain being nice and perhaps putting someone else's wants ahead of your own.  Something you need to do occasionally to make a relationship work.

I am not saying all of Marten's behavior is excusable, he is a bit passive on some things.  But it isn't exactly like he is a giant ball of passivity and nothing else.  He is a genuinely nice guy, he cares for Dora, loves(d) her, none of the fights they have are initiated by him and he doesn't really do anything wrong.  Might be a bit of a blanket statement.  But blaming the relationship not working due to Marten, ludicrous.  Plus, you guys lay on the passive thing too much, when Dora goes nuts over something and marten states "fuck this, I am leaving" or something to that extent, that is NOT being passive.  Passive would just give up and say, yes ma'am.

100% of the fault is Dora's emoness.  If she grows up a little, she might be able to have a real relationship, something she (admittedly) has never had.

Long story short:

Dora is whack.

Nice does not equate to passive.

Also, "In all honesty, no woman with any self respect would stay in a relationship with Marten for very long anyway, simply because he is incapable of doing anything on his own. In short: Marten isn't even really an adult, he's an overgrown boy that needs a mother-figure to tell him what to do every minute of every day."

I think you need to go back and read the comic again.  Marten is pretty fleshed out, he has mommy issues, but he does most things on his own.

I think you need to read the series of articles starting here and realize that being a "Nice Guy" is pretty much the worst possible thing a guy can be and expect women to treat him with any kind of respect.

Edited to fix the link to the correct page.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 08:54 by Tiogyr »
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #110 on: 05 Jul 2011, 08:59 »

I think I will go with RL experience and not something written on the intarwebs.

Sorry, I won't go out and start smacking my bitch around or treating her like crap.  The kind of woman I am involved (or get involved) with have a tendency to have some self respect and don't need to be mistreated to feel valuable.  I guess I have unusual standards.

And once again, Nice does not mean passive.  You can be nice and still have a back bone.  It isn't like treating a person with respect is some form of disease.  If there weren't 2k comics to go back through, I would feel like tracking down instances where Marty behaves decidedly un-passive.  I have already read issues 1-current 3 times.  I think I am good on doing it again for a while.
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Elysiana

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #111 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:11 »

I keep seeing that link pop up in various places, and there's a lot in there that I'm not comfortable with - namely that they are talking about a very specific type of Nice Guy, and it falls on the VERY far end of the spectrum. And when they're not talking about that one, they're talking about the "Nice" Guy which is entirely different. It all kind of gets lumped in together and given the title of Nice Guy as though it's the final word on the subject, but I think it's a misnomer.

I agree with MA - nice does not mean passive.
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #112 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:13 »

I think you need to read the series of articles starting here and realize that being a "Nice Guy" is pretty much the worst possible thing a guy can be and expect women to treat him with any kind of respect.
I think you need to read the first sentence of the series of article you link to before trying to make a statement based upon it.
Quote
All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc.
(emphasis mine)

We've seen how Marten behaves. He doesn't fit in the kind of guys described in these articles – that I happen to have already read some times ago.
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #113 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:14 »

While I agree that the posted Nice-Guy-articles describe pretty well how it works not, I don't think it labels nice guys correctly in general, and also not Marten.

I'll just change "his fault, too" to "he was a reason, too" in my head, since he being him obviously doesn't fit to Dora or the other way round.

Dang people here are always faster than me each time I want to say something once every eternity x)
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 09:19 by dragontart »
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #114 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:18 »

And once again, Nice does not mean passive.

Absolutely.  The trouble is that you can do positive things which are not considered "manly" enough by some people, and so get misinterpreted (or more likely, ignored).

Marten is not passive here, for instance - he is initiating what he is doing, trivial though it is.  And he is taking the initiative here, or here.  And here, for instance, is one of a number of times he simply stood by his view of things rather than giving in to Dora's revisionism.  It's not hard to find examples.
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guayec

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #115 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:21 »

damn, what happened to my post?  :?

anyway, a couple people already said the same.  :-)

internet fora: where repetition feeds on brevity
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Method of Madness

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #116 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:27 »

I think just by saying the events in a way that make it clearly her fault, even if she didn't want to admit it right after, shows that she's accepted most of the responsibility of the relationship not working.  She just has to figure out what to do next.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #117 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:28 »

I think you need to read the first sentence of the series of article you link to before trying to make a statement based upon it.
Quote
All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc.
(emphasis mine)

Yeah if you go and take only one sentence and don't bother with the context of the series, I can see how you'd miss the point entirely.

Quote
We've seen how Marten behaves. He doesn't fit in the kind of guys described in these articles – that I happen to have already read some times ago.

He actually seems to be going through this arc, though (we're at the point where he's about to shove a stick up his own ass).

« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 09:31 by Tiogyr »
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #118 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:29 »

@pwhodges, you also forgot when he went out and bought Dora some roses (ok, it bloated Dora's face like a balloon, but hey its the thought that counts).

I've also done that a couple of times for my girlfriend. The first couple of times I got a weird look and a "What did you break?" (nothing before anyone asks), now its like weird puppy dog eyes before I get the breath squeezed from my lungs. So yeah, doing nice things for the sake of it, nice, a little painful but still nice.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #119 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:32 »

He actually does, though.

See, I can't take that seriously whatsoever when the site is called "heartless bitches" and the subsection is called "rants".
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #120 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:35 »

He actually does, though.

See, I can't take that seriously whatsoever when the site is called "heartless bitches" and the subsection is called "rants".

Engaging in "Poisoning the Wells" isn't really going to win the argument, though, is it? Try actually reading the articles beyond the sensationalist headliners. They don't have any beef with genuinely nice people, but with people that only pretend to be nice because their insecurities won't allow them to be assertive (which would be Marten, he really isn't all that different from Dora, other than his issues putting him at the opposite end of the same spectrum).

Bleh, editing cuz he edited!

I would hope so, because while your post was in English, it was a bit hard to follow with the way that the grammar was screwed up.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 09:38 by Tiogyr »
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #121 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:39 »

He actually does, though.

See, I can't take that seriously whatsoever when the site is called "heartless bitches" and the subsection is called "rants".

Engaging in "Poisoning the Wells" isn't really going to win the argument, though, is it?

Bleh, editing cuz he edited!

I would hope so, because while your post was in English, it was a bit hard to follow with the way that the grammar was screwed up.

Oh snap, grammar nazi has entered the post, respect has gone away.  Have fun posting, any coherent discussion leaves when the grammar comes into play.  Pointing at grammar is the last resort of a lost argument.  The best part is where to call a guy out on poisoning the well and THEN pull the grammar card.  Roofles.

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Elysiana

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #122 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:40 »

He actually seems to be going through this arc, though (we're at the point where he's about to shove a stick up his own ass).
I'm not seeing it....?
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #123 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:41 »

Hmm, I may be a bit on the bitter side.

Don't worry! You could replace that line with a good many of the posts here, and you'll fall right in step with other forumites.

Admitting the problem is the first step to recovery ^^

Smoke and mirrors might show Marten's issues...

Or you could try looking at the situation from another, less-clouded perspective.
Why?  Do I need to modify my perspective for a reason?  It is my perspective, I don't change it to fit the situation, I use it to judge my outlook on it.

My perspective is who I am, I don't change it to suit a reason, that way lies conviction-less life.  Have the courage to stand by your convictions rather than change it to fit into some mold someone else designed.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #124 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:50 »

I don't know why the "Nice Guy" construct seems so fascinating to some people.  Reading some of those articles, they are fairly uniform in describing the "Nice Guy" as complaining that he doesn't get what he wants out of his relationship with women; however, this clearly does not describe Marten's situation, as he and Dora had a healthy and active sex life, for instance.
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Sorflakne

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #125 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:52 »

Dora Dora Dora...tsk*
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #126 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:52 »

I don't know why the "Nice Guy" construct seems so fascinating to some people.  Reading some of those articles, they are fairly uniform in describing the "Nice Guy" as complaining that he doesn't get what he wants out of his relationship with women; however, this clearly does not describe Marten's situation, as he and Dora had a healthy and active sex life, for instance.

Because Marten regularly complained about Dora's complete lack of any respect for him, which is just as important, but failed to realize that he did nothing to earn that respect.
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #127 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:55 »

Tsk tsk, selective memory FTL.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #128 on: 05 Jul 2011, 09:58 »

Tsk tsk, selective memory FTL.

Oh, by all means, point out something Marten has done to earn anybody's respect other than simply existing as a fellow human being. Faye, the person he arguably has been the most supportive of, doesn't respect him either.

Either the things going on in the characters' lives that we don't get to see mean that Marten is generally worthless in the eyes of what are supposed to be his closest friends, or Jeph hasn't done a very good job of showing us why Marten is even friends with these people to begin with.

« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 10:03 by Tiogyr »
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #129 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:01 »

Why bother, you read the comic, if you can't see the things he has done, I am certainly not going to change your mind.  We get it, you don't like Marten and you are so gung ho about it that you will ignore any evidence, even when we club you over the head with it.  I think I am done responding to you, you make this thread an unpleasant place to be.

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to ignore people on this forum?
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Elysiana

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #130 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:01 »

I don't see why people should have to prove themselves to earn respect.
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idontunderstand

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #131 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:05 »

Man he should have just fucked her in the ear.
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #132 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:07 »

Why?  Do I need to modify my perspective for a reason?  It is my perspective, I don't change it to fit the situation, I use it to judge my outlook on it.

My perspective is who I am, I don't change it to suit a reason, that way lies conviction-less life.  Have the courage to stand by your convictions rather than change it to fit into some mold someone else designed.

Sometimes convictions are incorrect. Quote from a Consequentialism FAQ:
Quote
Consider as a metaphor the process of discovering an optical illusion. Our sensory intuitions play the same role in the physical world that our moral intuitions play in the moral world; they are our first and only source of data.

However, sometimes our sensory intuitions are false. For example, an rod that looks bent as it enters the water may in fact be straight. We discover this by noticing that this sense-datum of bendiness conflicts both other immediate sense data, like how the object feels when we touch it, and rules gathered from a long history of interacting with sense-data (like that solid objects don't instantly bend of their own accord).
Point is, you can't always tell when you're wrong, especially when you have limited experience to work with. One way to correct misconceptions is having them pointed out by people with different experiences, essentially increasing the amount of data you have to work with.

And what will Dora being 'punished' accomplish? She's not harming Marten anymore and she's working on fixing the problem.

I have a problem with people who take offence on behalf of Marten. Doing that doesn't help nothin' since someone who borrows offence doesn't know how it actually felt for the person, and thus doesn't know what compensation is adequate.
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #133 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:07 »

Sorry that arc never happened.  It would show too much aggressive behavior, since all Marten does is agree with everyone and sit on the floor all day long...there was no ear arc.
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idontunderstand

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #134 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:09 »

EARFUCK I TELL YOU
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Mightyanvil

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #135 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:11 »

Why?  Do I need to modify my perspective for a reason?  It is my perspective, I don't change it to fit the situation, I use it to judge my outlook on it.

My perspective is who I am, I don't change it to suit a reason, that way lies conviction-less life.  Have the courage to stand by your convictions rather than change it to fit into some mold someone else designed.

Sometimes convictions are incorrect. Quote from a Consequentialism FAQ:
Quote
Consider as a metaphor the process of discovering an optical illusion. Our sensory intuitions play the same role in the physical world that our moral intuitions play in the moral world; they are our first and only source of data.

However, sometimes our sensory intuitions are false. For example, an rod that looks bent as it enters the water may in fact be straight. We discover this by noticing that this sense-datum of bendiness conflicts both other immediate sense data, like how the object feels when we touch it, and rules gathered from a long history of interacting with sense-data (like that solid objects don't instantly bend of their own accord).
Point is, you can't always tell when you're wrong, especially when you have limited experience to work with. One way to correct misconceptions is having them pointed out by people with different experiences, essentially increasing the amount of data you have to work with.

And what will Dora being 'punished' accomplish? She's not harming Marten anymore and she's working on fixing the problem.

I have a problem with people who take offence on behalf of Marten. Doing that doesn't help nothin' since someone who borrows offence doesn't know how it actually felt for the person, and thus doesn't know what compensation is adequate.

That is what having the courage of your convictions is all about.  The willingness to be wrong.  There is merit in being flexible, I will give you.  But there is also something to be said for making a decision based on a set of variables.  To never make your own decisions and always look to other people to solve issues for you, isn't that what 90% of the people on this thread are complaining about?

I would rather be strong enough to make a decisions based on my perspective and be wrong, than to either needlessly argue a point even when proved wrong or just modify my outlook to suit whatever the current meme theory is...

I can, and will admit when I am wrong.  But I won't adjust my thinking to conform.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #136 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:12 »

Man he should have just fucked her in the ear.
I just saw an old Indian saying that sentence. And burst out laughing. Thank you very much.
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AngelofShadows

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #137 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:13 »

He did nothing to earn respect? Having his own job and place and being financially independent earns respect, for starters. Helping two very sheltered friends come out of their shells and get closer to living lives they both admittedly want to live earns respect as well. Standing up to the vespavenger, standing by Steve, dealing with his rather odd situation with his parents without going insane, accepting and wanting his dad to be happy by giving his blessing to get remarried, all of these earn respect. You want more manly examples? He hit a Kung Fu monk in the face with a frying pan. He also didn't drink himself into a coma when he found out his girlfriend and her father both pleasured themselves to pictures of his mom. That earns a shit ton of respect points.

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Welu

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #138 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:14 »

I'd love to get more involved with the discussion and do some quoting and comic linking but busted laptop and PS3-browsing the forums is awkward enough. :psyduck: Instead here's just my original thoughts.

1: Dora looks good in that dress.

2: I think the "A lot was him too" was to an extent a face-saving comment in the middle of telling more than she meant to tell. Also I know if I wrecked a good thing due to difficult personal issues, at least pretending it wasn't 100% my fault would stop me feeling even more pathetic. Temporarily at least.

3: It's refreshing seeing Dora speak clearly about her view of the relationship/break-up. This is probably the type of discussion and epiphany she wanted to have with her therapist.
 
4:Hope Jeph is doing well. His Twitter feed is kind of worrying but it's his business. I appreciate him getting a comic up when he seems to be having a situation.

Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #139 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:15 »

I don't see why people should have to prove themselves to earn respect.

You do when you've recently done things to lose that respect, which was the case between Marten and Dora (she started off already not having much respect for him due to watching his interactions with Faye). But as I said, Dora doesn't have much self-respect either (if not for her insecurities, she would still be with Marten).

Marten isn't completely worthless, but you do have to wonder why none of his friends seem to have any real respect for him.
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #140 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:24 »

I think the 'real' respect would be a lack of Faye's punchings, Steve's sarcastic comments, Dora's looking at his porn, Tai's nipple-grabbing, Pintsize's Pintsizing and (some have argued) Hannelore bringing his worry hat.  

It's all relative though.
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bhtooefr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #141 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:25 »

One thing to keep in mind, that the HBI site doesn't make clear, is that not everything is black and white. (I usually cite http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html when explaining "nice guy" behavior, rather than HBI.)

One can have traits of a "nice guy" who feels that being nice entitles him to various things in a relationship, which is inherently jerky behavior.

The same person can have genuinely nice traits, too. Evidence in the case of Marten: except for when he was very, very drunk, he's there for Faye, despite not being able to date her.

On that spectrum, Marten's in the gray area, not at one end or the other - most of the time, he's genuinely nice, but he has some "nice guy"ish traits that come out at times. In addition, he's now building the self-confidence to stand up for himself, which tends to help with the whole "nice guy" thing.

(Myself, I generally try to be nice - regardless of whether or not I've got a chance with someone - but at the same time, I'm a sarcastic bastard, and I'm not going to suppress that trait about myself to try to pick up chicks. And, also, I'm a firm believer in calling people out on their shit, ESPECIALLY if they're my friend.)
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #142 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:30 »

Tai's nipple-grabbing

Yeah, don't get me started on Tai. QC would lose nothing if she never appeared again as the character Jeph has created (cheap LOL look at that clueless lesbian that cannot interact with straight people! jokes are getting old).
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Coffee_Kaioken

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #143 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:31 »

It doesn't really matter sometimes what you do to earn respect, since some people tend not to have any.
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cabbagehut

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #144 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:33 »

The way I see Marten is that he's a genuinely nice person.  Most of the time, he doesn't have a strong opinion.  It's not that he's withholding or manipulative - he really doesn't care much one way or the other.  That was part of what attracted Dora to him.  He doesn't push people around, he's pretty honest, but yeah, he's kind of a passive person.

That's totally different from the "Nice Guy" situation, in which men pretend to be nice and to be friends with someone only in the hopes of hooking up with them later.  Nice Guys like that aren't actually friends with the women in question - Marten actually is.  He cares very much about Faye, in particular, but also has shown compassion and kindness to girls that he wasn't interested in romantically (Penelope, Raven, Ellen, Tai, Cosette, etc).  He treats his female friends with respect, values what they think, is happy for them when they get into relationships, and while he screws up from time to time, he is overall a good friend (I think of that comic where Faye is like, "you are a true friend, flower-pits").  An actual Nice Guy wouldn't do that - there's no payback for them.  To a Nice Guy, the woman in question "owes" him for the time he's invested.  

Dora is not a bad person, but I think she's being a little too charitable to herself in this comic.  Her beef with Marten was his passiveness, but she became incredibly angry when Marten wasn't passive.  Her problems were not about him - and it's unfair to blame him for it.  Marten showed repeatedly that he was willing to concede and try to be better about things when Dora expressed concern about her problems.  Both he and Dora made mistakes and hurt each other, but the reason that the relationship ended was because of Dora and her response to her feelings, not because of what Marten did or didn't do.
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pendrake

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #145 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:43 »

For comic #1962...

1. Aw... nothing like post-restaurant ice cream.  I generally do that too on most dates.  I find it a lot more enjoyable than at-restaurant dessert (lets you get up and move around after eating, yet have an excuse to stop and enjoy each other's company too :wink: ).

2. It was a good artwork job on the frontal shots for the last two panels, those angles are always difficult to draw.

3. Forum "debates," quotings, and linkings like these always remind me of a television commerical I wish I had paid more attention to...

- Older business exec #1: We need to be able show that our [product] is better without actually having to do anything.

- Younger business exec #2: That's easy! 85% of all statistics can be made to say whatever you want.

- Older business exec #1: Does that actually work?

- Younger business exec #2: yes!  ...60% of the time.

- Older business exec #1: *facepalms*

(Sadly at this point I did not catch which company's commerical this was, as I was rendered blind & helpless by laughter-tears when I heard these lines... :roll: )
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 11:07 by pendrake »
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grimeyville

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #146 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:48 »

I don't see why people should have to prove themselves to earn respect.

You do when you've recently done things to lose that respect, which was the case between Marten and Dora (she started off already not having much respect for him due to watching his interactions with Faye). But as I said, Dora doesn't have much self-respect either (if not for her insecurities, she would still be with Marten).

Marten isn't completely worthless, but you do have to wonder why none of his friends seem to have any real respect for him.

Because he can be easily pushed over. Because his snapping point does not exist. He has no respect for himself, why should anyone respect him. You know what is funny? That the times Marten stood up to himself from his friends, they saw him as being a dick and what have you, because it's not in his personality to say the things he said. It took being dumped to bring that out of him. A basic Hammer of Dawn.

Our lovable Faye likes to hit people and be snarky and vicious, and that's part of her personality. Hell, that's why Angus likes her. They are both fairly snarky people. Marten however, well, I don't remember the last time I saw Marten be snarky. It's not in his nature. He's easily walked on so when he does prove to not be walked on, he either gets a comment about him being a dick, or if it's his mom apparently, a complete shut down.

You want the most telling thing about Marten's personality?

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1835

He looks like a beaten child. What people like about Marten is that he's a go with the flow kind of guy, that's what we can assume by seeing how he is with friends. He's someone who you can depend on, who's loyal and there, but on the 'con' side of things... He's weak. Sedated. Only makes a fuss about something when his button is pushed. Hard. He never has a strong opinion about one thing or the other, and with no strong opinions he is easily stomped on. The more I think about it the more I realize that Dora isn't really in as much of the wrong as the forum thinks.

I hate to compare personal life here, but my ex and I's relationship had a few points similar Marten and Dora's.

I was so passive about everything, so nonchalant, she always wondered if I cared much. I would show I cared by always taking her out and stuff, but what she wanted was a strong well... Opinion about something, anything. About showing I cared in more intimate ways. Her baggage was previous relationships, always bringing up different former boyfriends and stuff, I would get mad and so on.

We broke up over issues, and now that we are actually really good friends, we discuss how we both went wrong to make sure we never make the same mistakes again with different people or with each other if that day ever comes. She's helping me realize that you NEED to say what you feel, not just pend it up and hold it for four to six months until it's oven baked and ready.

Back to the main point: Again, why should anyone respect someone who doesn't respect themselves.

If he really, actually wanted that relationship to continue, he would have fought to change her mind.

Instead, Marten just took it like a Mike Tyson punch in the first round.

Instead he acted like a victim and got no sympathy. He drank a lot out of frustration, got punched out by Faye for getting fresh and going on that nice guy complaint that I am really mad used to come out of my mouth at one point in my life, and even now he's eating a buffet of doormatism.

Dora and Marten need to... Well, talk. Hopefully without either of them killing each other and learning what they can about their own stupid, childish, terrible behaviors so they can grow from it.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #147 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:50 »

2. It was a good artwork job on the frontal shots for the last two panels, those angles are always difficult to draw.

I don't know, man, you saying this made me look again and now I'm wondering how Jim could possibly be comfortable in women's pants like that.
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #148 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:55 »

Quote
He has no respect for himself, why should anyone respect him.

Actually, because one's not a jerk. What kind of respect other people have or don't have for person X (including person X) is in no way important for my opinion about X.
(I have the same standard-respect for everyone who's not doing malicious things on purpose and people won't gain anything just because they're incredibly cool.)
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grimeyville

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #149 on: 05 Jul 2011, 10:59 »

Quote
He has no respect for himself, why should anyone respect him.

Actually, because one's not a jerk. What kind of respect other people have or don't have for person X (including person X) is in no way important for my opinion about X.
(I have the same standard-respect for everyone who's not doing malicious things on purpose and people won't gain anything just because they're incredibly cool.)

You are completely allowed to respect them, consciously or unconsciously. You may be the outlier in the equation.

However people (this is just my personal opinion) usually seemed to get walked over more, when they have less respect for themselves. The more they are like, "It's okay if Person X does this, that or other thing to me, I don't care." The more someone says, "Oh, they're letting me get away with this? Then I'll continue, and do more of it."

Usually just seems like human nature to me.
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