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Poll

What's on for the end of the week?

4 panels of embarrassed silence
- 18 (20.7%)
Running away for ever
- 1 (1.1%)
Bitter recriminations
- 2 (2.3%)
Hugs for closure and acceptance
- 25 (28.7%)
Make-up makeout!
- 4 (4.6%)
Rest of cast jump out shouting "Surprise!"
- 3 (3.4%)
We see something happening in the party
- 4 (4.6%)
Tai rushes out and shoves Marten aside
- 8 (9.2%)
AnthroPCs
- 9 (10.3%)
Jeph has his first day off for years, & no guest strip either
- 13 (14.9%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)  (Read 153755 times)

ChibiSoma

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #150 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:00 »

Because Marten regularly complained about Dora's complete lack of any respect for him, which is just as important, but failed to realize that he did nothing to earn that respect.

Yeah, I mean all he did was accept her and stay with her despite her disrespecting his wishes and behaving in a completely unacceptable way for a grown fucking person to act! Yeah, he didn't do dick to earn her respect.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

Dora's completely at fault here. She's completely off her rocker insane. She sees her boyfriend hugging her other friend and immediately jumped to the "AHA YOU'RE FUCKING AUGH GO TO HELL" conclusion! On more than one occasion, she has behaved like this. Marten did what any half-brained person would do when saddled with someone certifiably insane - he called her out on treating him like shit, being out of her god damn mind, and got the hell out of the relationship! There's only so much a normal person can take of someone else's continued acts of bullshit before they get fed up. Even the most spineless person in the world can reach their breaking point if they're pushed for long enough, and that's exactly what happened here.

Despite Marten constantly reassuring Dora's retarded ass that he cared about her, she couldn't accept that as fact and was constantly searching for reasons to prove it, hence her absurd outbursts at the slightest thing. She didn't respect Marten's privacy despite being asked, she flies off the handle, and it takes someone getting in her face and screaming at her before the dumb bitch realizes she keeps fucking things up!

Yeah, Marten didn't do shit to earn her respect. He only stayed faithful to her despite her insecurities.

What an asshole that Marten guy is.

Oh wait, I forgot. You aren't allowed to become sick of someone's shit. You aren't allowed to say "Enough" and put your foot down. Poor poor Dora. Poor poor brought-it-all-on-herself-so-fuck-her Dora.

And you know what the worst part of all this is? They'll get back together. They'll get back together and Dora will not have changed. Or she will but she'll have "episodes," I believe is the term, where she'll regress and blow up for totally mundane shit occurring around her. She isn't mentally stable and shouldn't be treated as if she were. Trying to shift blame onto Marten when he didn't do fucking anything but put his foot down and tell her he was sick and tired of her CONSTANT god damn horseshit proves that. And yet he'll still scamper back to her like a little lost puppy.

What?

No.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

That's not how it works, god dammit. <moderator>personal remarks removed</moderator> Nothing serious can ever continue for long in QC. Tai will always be a stereotype who thinks with her libido first, Hannelore will never be normal and awesome again, Faye will keep fucking everyone BUT Marten because she's a whore, Dora will always be psychotic, and Marten will only grow a pair of balls in the most extreme of circumstances. That's how it works. We'll never see Dora with Tai (because Tai can't be happy) and we'll never see Marten stop being a mopey cunt over getting out of his poisonous relationship. Seeing either of those would require a capability in writing that I just don't think Jeph can pull off. So Marten will end up back with Dora and everyone here will be all "DAWWWWW" over it. That's just how it works in QC.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 23:45 by pwhodges »
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #151 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:05 »

Quote
You are completely allowed to respect them, consciously or unconsciously. You may be the outlier in the equation.

However people (this is just my personal opinion) usually seemed to get walked over more, when they have less respect for themselves. The more they are like, "It's okay if Person X does this, that or other thing to me, I don't care." The more someone says, "Oh, they're letting me get away with this? Then I'll continue, and do more of it."

Usually just seems like human nature to me.

I do agree absolutely. I just think it usually says more about those who don't show respect than about those who don't get said respect. I also think it would be better/easier for Marten if he wasn't what's generally seen as a loser/slacker/etc. who doesn't deserve respect, but I don't think one should blame Marten for other peoples (in my opinion) weird definitions of that. But indeed that's just me.

There's some exhilarating, fine swearing in the post above me.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 11:12 by dragontart »
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #152 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:07 »

ChibiSoma, you could have kept it civil instead of going for name-calling.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 11:09 by Schmorgluck »
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #153 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:11 »

Because Marten regularly complained about Dora's complete lack of any respect for him, which is just as important, but failed to realize that he did nothing to earn that respect.

Yeah, I mean all he did was accept her and stay with her despite her disrespecting his wishes and behaving in a completely unacceptable way for a grown fucking person to act! Yeah, he didn't do dick to earn her respect.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

Dora's completely at fault here. She's completely off her rocker insane. She sees her boyfriend hugging her other friend and immediately jumped to the "AHA YOU'RE FUCKING AUGH GO TO HELL" conclusion! On more than one occasion, she has behaved like this. Marten did what any half-brained person would do when saddled with someone certifiably insane - he called her out on treating him like shit, being out of her god damn mind, and got the hell out of the relationship! There's only so much a normal person can take of someone else's continued acts of bullshit before they get fed up. Even the most spineless person in the world can reach their breaking point if they're pushed for long enough, and that's exactly what happened here.

Despite Marten constantly reassuring Dora's retarded ass that he cared about her, she couldn't accept that as fact and was constantly searching for reasons to prove it, hence her absurd outbursts at the slightest thing. She didn't respect Marten's privacy despite being asked, she flies off the handle, and it takes someone getting in her face and screaming at her before the dumb bitch realizes she keeps fucking things up!

Yeah, Marten didn't do shit to earn her respect. He only stayed faithful to her despite her insecurities.

What an asshole that Marten guy is.

Oh wait, I forgot. You aren't allowed to become sick of someone's shit. You aren't allowed to say "Enough" and put your foot down. Poor poor Dora. Poor poor brought-it-all-on-herself-so-fuck-her Dora.

And you know what the worst part of all this is? They'll get back together. They'll get back together and Dora will not have changed. Or she will but she'll have "episodes," I believe is the term, where she'll regress and blow up for totally mundane shit occurring around her. She isn't mentally stable and shouldn't be treated as if she were. Trying to shift blame onto Marten when he didn't do fucking anything but put his foot down and tell her he was sick and tired of her CONSTANT god damn horseshit proves that. And yet he'll still scamper back to her like a little lost puppy.

What?

No.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

That's not how it works, god dammit. <moderator>personal remarks removed</moderator> Nothing serious can ever continue for long in QC. Tai will always be a stereotype who thinks with her libido first, Hannelore will never be normal and awesome again, Faye will keep fucking everyone BUT Marten because she's a whore, Dora will always be psychotic, and Marten will only grow a pair of balls in the most extreme of circumstances. That's how it works. We'll never see Dora with Tai (because Tai can't be happy) and we'll never see Marten stop being a mopey cunt over getting out of his poisonous relationship. Seeing either of those would require a capability in writing that I just don't think Jeph can pull off. So Marten will end up back with Dora and everyone here will be all "DAWWWWW" over it. That's just how it works in QC.

Just quoting this so when someone comes along to point out that Dora dumped Marten and that pretty much everyone in-comic was shitting on Marten with regard to the breakup itself, his own mother included, you can't edit this ridiculous post.

You may also want to go back and re-read my posts in this thread and stop posting as if I'm saying something I'm not.

edit: I forget who originally pointed it out on here, but I don't think Jeph naming Marten after a relative of the weasel was an accident.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 23:46 by pwhodges »
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grimeyville

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #154 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:15 »

Because Marten regularly complained about Dora's complete lack of any respect for him, which is just as important, but failed to realize that he did nothing to earn that respect.

Yeah, I mean all he did was accept her and stay with her despite her disrespecting his wishes and behaving in a completely unacceptable way for a grown fucking person to act! Yeah, he didn't do dick to earn her respect.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

Dora's completely at fault here. She's completely off her rocker insane. She sees her boyfriend hugging her other friend and immediately jumped to the "AHA YOU'RE FUCKING AUGH GO TO HELL" conclusion! On more than one occasion, she has behaved like this. Marten did what any half-brained person would do when saddled with someone certifiably insane - he called her out on treating him like shit, being out of her god damn mind, and got the hell out of the relationship! There's only so much a normal person can take of someone else's continued acts of bullshit before they get fed up. Even the most spineless person in the world can reach their breaking point if they're pushed for long enough, and that's exactly what happened here.

Despite Marten constantly reassuring Dora's retarded ass that he cared about her, she couldn't accept that as fact and was constantly searching for reasons to prove it, hence her absurd outbursts at the slightest thing. She didn't respect Marten's privacy despite being asked, she flies off the handle, and it takes someone getting in her face and screaming at her before the dumb bitch realizes she keeps fucking things up!

Yeah, Marten didn't do shit to earn her respect. He only stayed faithful to her despite her insecurities.

What an asshole that Marten guy is.

Oh wait, I forgot. You aren't allowed to become sick of someone's shit. You aren't allowed to say "Enough" and put your foot down. Poor poor Dora. Poor poor brought-it-all-on-herself-so-fuck-her Dora.

And you know what the worst part of all this is? They'll get back together. They'll get back together and Dora will not have changed. Or she will but she'll have "episodes," I believe is the term, where she'll regress and blow up for totally mundane shit occurring around her. She isn't mentally stable and shouldn't be treated as if she were. Trying to shift blame onto Marten when he didn't do fucking anything but put his foot down and tell her he was sick and tired of her CONSTANT god damn horseshit proves that. And yet he'll still scamper back to her like a little lost puppy.

What?

No.

<moderator>Unacceptable language removed</moderator>

That's not how it works, god dammit. <moderator>personal remarks removed</moderator> Nothing serious can ever continue for long in QC. Tai will always be a stereotype who thinks with her libido first, Hannelore will never be normal and awesome again, Faye will keep fucking everyone BUT Marten because she's a whore, Dora will always be psychotic, and Marten will only grow a pair of balls in the most extreme of circumstances. That's how it works. We'll never see Dora with Tai (because Tai can't be happy) and we'll never see Marten stop being a mopey cunt over getting out of his poisonous relationship. Seeing either of those would require a capability in writing that I just don't think Jeph can pull off. So Marten will end up back with Dora and everyone here will be all "DAWWWWW" over it. That's just how it works in QC.

Huh.

So what close friend of yours got their heart stomped to pieces?
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 23:46 by pwhodges »
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #155 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:17 »

Quote
I forget who originally pointed it out on here, but I don't think Jeph naming Marten after a relative of the weasel was an accident

I didn't even know! But what does it mean? Those animals don't have a certain reputation here except being annoying to the pet rabbits in your garden and to cars...
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #156 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:18 »

Myself, I generally try to be nice - regardless of whether or not I've got a chance with someone - but at the same time, I'm a sarcastic bastard, and I'm not going to suppress that trait about myself to try to pick up chicks. And, also, I'm a firm believer in calling people out on their shit, ESPECIALLY if they're my friend.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #157 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:21 »

This thread would give an aspirin a headache.

And at the moment, this seems entirely appropriate;

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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #158 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:34 »

EARFUCK I TELL YOU
Aural sex, then cookies!
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #159 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:36 »

You are completely allowed to respect them, consciously or unconsciously. You may be the outlier in the equation.

However people (this is just my personal opinion) usually seemed to get walked over more, when they have less respect for themselves. The more they are like, "It's okay if Person X does this, that or other thing to me, I don't care." The more someone says, "Oh, they're letting me get away with this? Then I'll continue, and do more of it."

Usually just seems like human nature to me.
Maybe it's a like in school. If you get bullied, there are parents that say: Oh if you don't react, they will get bored sooner or later. I took that road for some years (not that what my parents said, but I just didn't like to punch the shit out of somebody).

In retrospect, I should have parked my right knee on the chest of that biggest guy of that group some years earlier. He was the easiest to catch as  I was and am more of a manatee myself. I got some shit of the girls in my class for being mean or hitting that guy because he was full of tears after that(funny thing, none of the teacher said anything about it ^^).
But the next three years where I was in class with those people I wasn't bullied nor was my little brother (who was another target of choice for them, as well as all smaller kids).
Thinking about that. Grownups can just act as dump junior high kids.
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Border Reiver

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #160 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:37 »

Woah.

I'm going to take a break from this thread until it regains some sanity, or at least is a little less out there.  I'm thinking that trying to bring it back to a measure of reasonableness is doomed to failure ATM.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #161 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:38 »

Quote
I forget who originally pointed it out on here, but I don't think Jeph naming Marten after a relative of the weasel was an accident

I didn't even know! But what does it mean? Those animals don't have a certain reputation here except being annoying to the pet rabbits in your garden and to cars...

I'd point you to some old Bugs Bunny cartoons, but I'm not sure if that meaning still holds (basically, being a weasel was universally a bad thing). See also: Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #162 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:46 »

There's something that came to my mind: Dora has been pretty passive in her relationship with Marten – past initiating it, I mean. We haven't seen her doing something for Marten, while we've seen him doing things for her – including, but not limited to, putting up (all right, with more or less tact) with her fits of craziness. The only time when she seemed to do some effort is when she finally decided to move in with Marten and Faye instead of insisting for Marten to move in with her – and even then, one could argue that she just changed her mind instead of making an effort (being able to change one's mind instead of being stubborn out of pride or shit like that is still a good point).

I'm not saying Marten is Mr Perfect and has no shortcommings, but Dora is a lot to handle and she kinda... indulged. She indulged in her issues too, even when she's got warnings – but cowing away from therapy is quite common, actually, I did it too – heck, I'm still doing. Maybe Faye should have put her foot down earlier.
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Black Sword

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #163 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:52 »

Perhaps we should make the solution to forum debates combat by champion, American Gladiator style. Each faction picks a champion, we get elevated platforms, padded beating sticks, and have each champ duke it. The winner is the last combatant still standing, creating the greater concensus!

...until Jeff hypothetically yanks the rug out from underneath the champion the very next day, but the point is, debates get resolved! With spectacle!

Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #164 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:59 »

Perhaps we should make the solution to forum debates combat by champion, American Gladiator style. Each faction picks a champion, we get elevated platforms, padded beating sticks, and have each champ duke it. The winner is the last combatant still standing, creating the greater concensus!

...until Jeff hypothetically yanks the rug out from underneath the champion the very next day, but the point is, debates get resolved! With spectacle!

You mean Jeph?

What do you think the over/under odds are on Jeph having Hannelore snap and murder everyone at the end in a cold, calculated Hannibal Lecter-esque fit of badassery (she's become far too quiet and creepy compared to how she was originally being developed when she first showed up) when he gets tired of doing QC in general and decides to move on to something new?
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 12:02 by Tiogyr »
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grimeyville

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #165 on: 05 Jul 2011, 11:59 »

Perhaps we should make the solution to forum debates combat by champion, American Gladiator style. Each faction picks a champion, we get elevated platforms, padded beating sticks, and have each champ duke it. The winner is the last combatant still standing, creating the greater concensus!

...until Jeff hypothetically yanks the rug out from underneath the champion the very next day, but the point is, debates get resolved! With spectacle!

I request water surrounding the platforms.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #166 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:07 »

Perhaps we should make the solution to forum debates combat by champion, American Gladiator style. Each faction picks a champion, we get elevated platforms, padded beating sticks, and have each champ duke it. The winner is the last combatant still standing, creating the greater concensus!

...until Jeff hypothetically yanks the rug out from underneath the champion the very next day, but the point is, debates get resolved! With spectacle!

I request water surrounding the platforms.

I request pits filled with spikes.... or rabid hamsters....
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westrim

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #167 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:15 »

I have looked through this thread since my last post, and now I have a burning desire to start belting put "Respect".
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #168 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:22 »

<MODERATOR>

There's some exhilarating, fine swearing in the post above me.

Which I have removed; not because of the words, you understand, but because of the unacceptable lack of civility.

This rather fatuous discussion about whether Marten is a "Nice Guy" and whether it matters has been round several times before - and I don't expect anything useful will be added to it this time around.  Unfortunately, when only a few people are holding an unpopular view, some people find it harder to avoid making their replies personal.  But I do  expect people to respect the rules of this place, and I'm not above locking even the WCD thread if that's what it takes to calm people down. 
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 12:24 by pwhodges »
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Sylentknight

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #169 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:41 »

I'm a newbie to these forums but not to the comic. And I'm not going to get into the whole fault thing between Dora and Marten. After all, maybe all we've seen is Dora's understanding of her side of the equation, we haven't really seen this deep a analysis come from Marten yet. However, Marten is somewhat too passive. The whole reason he's in that town is because he followed a girl he was in love with, and this same willingness to go with the flow (follow) seems to act as a marker to his own passive behavior.

So what are we looking for here? Jeph has his own plans for Marten and what that future may entail. We can only guess that there may be a plan in the works to strengthen Marten's character somewhere down the road. It may not be something as crazy as the whole other life that Steve lived (the life of a spy/mercenary) but it may be something. It's hard to even remember if Marten has any real dreams. I fear that the passiveness of the character may be working too well and over time he'll become forgettable.

Change and becoming a better person seems to be the one constant theme in this story. I for one am shocked and proud that Hanner's is even present at such a large gathering of people considering her previous level of anxieties and phobias. We can't deny that it was probably Marten's friendship with these other people that helped them take the first steps into changing their lives for the better (remember how Faye was at the beginning, Steve, Hanner's?).

The point I'm making is that it is probably Marten's turn to become better. To somehow find that balance to being the friend he's always been but at the same time become a stronger individual. Considering Marten's age, is working at a college library part-time really what he wants to do for the rest of his life? I for one would have no problem with Marten leaving for awhile and growing as long as the character came back with a great story. It might be interesting to see how the other character's operate without his presence in their lives. Of course whether Jeph sees things that way and how he might go about it is anyone's guess. :|
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #170 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:49 »

Change and becoming a better person seems to be the one constant theme in this story.

Could we debate this? Because this is one thing where it could definitely be argued to be the opposite (at least as far as Hannelore goes, possibly a couple others as well, like Dora pre-dating-Marten).

I mean, Hannelore started off as an otherwise "normal" QC character with mild OCD before she evolved into the unrealistically regressed naive person we know today (that is slowly moving back toward being a "normal" person). She smoked, drank, went to bars and didn't have any sort of freakouts like she does since Jeph reinvented her as the butt of OCD jokes.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #171 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:54 »

I mean, Hannelore started off as an otherwise "normal" QC character with mild OCD before she evolved into the unrealistically regressed naive person we know today (that is slowly moving back toward being a "normal" person). She smoked, drank, went to bars and didn't have any sort of freakouts like she does since Jeph reinvented her as the butt of OCD jokes.

You do realise that right before Marten and Hanners met, she was stalking him for two weeks. Her excuse for not introducing herself when Marten and Faye moved into the building? She didn't want to seem weird. How is stalking someone normal?
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #172 on: 05 Jul 2011, 12:56 »

There's a lot of vitriol here, which is rather unpleasant, but I feel the need to state my opinion. Please remember that everything written below is my opinion, based off of my personal experiences.

-------------------

I really don't like Dora. I never have. She always came off to me as greedy, manipulative, sniping and self-centered. I should probably inform you that I'm a 'Faye' type girl, to the point that a number of my friends have made note of the similarities (similar issues regarding men and our fathers, similar body types, similar types of humor).

Too many times, I have developed feelings for a man, but felt myself incapable of giving him the relationship he deserved, because of an incompatibility in our lifestyles. Like Faye did with Marten, I would sit down with them and explain the situation, what I felt was preventing us from having a relationship, and an apology that because of my issues, I was unable to pursue my feelings for them. I take ownership of the situation, which is something Faye grew into with her conversation with Marten. She understands she's messed up, and accepts that she needs to fix herself before she can give the man she truly wants a fair shake in a relationship. You'll notice once that talk was over, she went and got help, started seeing a therapist.

And I have had 'friends' (though I feel that 'frienemies' is a more appropriate term) like Dora. They're strong, attractive personalities. Women with issues become attached to them, in a friendship sense, because when we're around them we find ourselves feeling braver. We think 'If I could be like that, I could deal with X' or 'I wish I had that level of self-confidence/self-reliance'. And I have gone through the situation that occurred between Dora, Marten, and Faye. When I was 19, I met a boy who I adored, more than anything. But I was just starting my therapy, and my psychologist asked me if I really thought I could have a healthy relationship - I knew I couldn't. So we had our talk. A week later, pictures appeared on Myspace (to give you an idea how long ago this was >.<) of the two of them kissing and drinking together. It hurt. Immensely. I wasn't upset with him, I wanted him to be happy. But I felt betrayed by my friend, because she knew, how I felt. She helped me work out how to say what I needed to say during the talk. She held me the night before the pictures were taken while I cried over the fact that I couldn't be with him. It was horrifying for me, I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me. So that attributes to my dislike of Dora. When I read that story arc I felt my heart freeze up in my chest, and bad memories came rushing back.

While that heavily contributes, there is another reason I dislike Dora - she's not honest with herself, or anyone around her. Unlike Faye, up until -very recently- Dora has laid her problems at the feet of those around her. Marten's 'passivity' does not equate to being a doormat. The comic linked above, where Marten's mother demands he apologize to her, and his friends, for his behavior, came across to me as a response of emotional exhaustion. He just got out of a bad breakup in a long term relationship, and his own mother was sneaking off from dinner with him to call his ex and check on her. Arguing with people, yelling at people, being upset - those are all emotionally draining. I think, at the end of the night, the point when this event occurred, he just wanted to go home and sleep. He was done dealing with his mother, and done thinking about Dora. I think it's unfair to use that as an example of a weak self-will. Anyway, back to Dora - She doesn't take responsibility for her problems. She blames her overreactions and paranoia on the behavior of others, be it Marten, Faye, or her 'ex boyfriend' who has been referenced numerous times, and she expects her friends and loved ones to change their behavior to accommodate her.

Whereas Faye saw that she had a problem, accepted it, owned it, and didn't go bitch mode when Dora swooped in and got together with Marten. She understood that Marten's love life didn't end because she wasn't available, and though she was a little hurt, she didn't hold it against either of them.

The short version:

I don't like Dora. Dora is the kind of woman that gives women with issues a bad name.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #173 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:00 »

You do realise that right before Marten and Hanners met, she was stalking him for two weeks. Her excuse for not introducing herself when Marten and Faye moved into the building? She didn't want to seem weird. How is stalking someone normal?

Considering how things started between Marten and Faye at the very beginning of this strip, it really isn't that much worse.

Plus, the operative words there were "QC character" immediately after "normal". It's all relative, obviously, but the sudden shift into super-crazy-town Hanners took once the stalking admission happened is what I'm talking about.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #174 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:06 »

Change and becoming a better person seems to be the one constant theme in this story.

Could we debate this? Because this is one thing where it could definitely be argued to be the opposite (at least as far as Hannelore goes, possibly a couple others as well, like Dora pre-dating-Marten).

I mean, Hannelore started off as an otherwise "normal" QC character with mild OCD before she evolved into the unrealistically regressed naive person we know today (that is slowly moving back toward being a "normal" person). She smoked, drank, went to bars and didn't have any sort of freakouts like she does since Jeph reinvented her as the butt of OCD jokes.
I don't think I'll debate. I accept your view as yours and I'll live with mine. Stalking, drinking, smoking Hanners (crutches needed for her to operate) is far removed from the current Hanners who seems to be okay at the party and not drinking alcohol. Sure, when she first came to the strip she was rough around the edges and somewhat vague, but defining and polishing a character takes time. They rarely come to the party fully formed and complete. Rather, I feel Marten has become more vague with no clear lines as time has evolved.
-edit-
As for Marten and Faye, I'll have to agree with his mother's assessment of a potential relationship now that Marten as a passive individual has come to light. Faye would definitely need someone who can fight back against her snarky-ness and Marten, while able to joke with her, would be unable to do it in a relationship. That kind of barrage almost everyday would wear him down. I think Jeph was pointing that out to us. Due to the way I personally see the character of Marten now (these are not real people) I can't see anyone in the current cast who would be good for him. I'm not saying another character should be added, I'm saying Marten is due for some growth.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 13:22 by Sylentknight »
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Skaltura

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #175 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:07 »


That's not how it works, god dammit. And a less emo writer would realize that. Unfortunately, Jeoh's in Sad Sad Shinji mode despite being a successful webcomic artist who can make his living from home, so that's what's going to happen.

As a forum newb, I really do not want to derail this thread any further, but I feel obligated to comment on this statement.

Jeph is taking psych medications, and has alluded to the reasons being genuine mental illness (as in chemical imbalances), I don't know if he's ever specified what kind, but I'd guess it's some form of depression and/or anxiety disorder.

Without going into my own personal history, these people are not being "emo" or in "sad mode", it is a crippling medical condition that no matter what your circumstances in life are, will. fuck. you. up. Precisely what you wrote is the reason why so many of us have to hide their condition behind masquerade or facade. Please consider this.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 13:11 by Skaltura »
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #176 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:15 »


That's not how it works, god dammit. And a less emo writer would realize that. Unfortunately, Jeoh's in Sad Sad Shinji mode despite being a successful webcomic artist who can make his living from home, so that's what's going to happen.

As a forum newb, I really do not want to derail this thread any further, but I feel obligated to comment on this statement.

Jeph is taking psych medications, and has alluded to the reasons being genuine mental illness (as in chemical imbalances), I don't know if he's ever specified what kind, but I'd guess it's some form of depression and/or anxiety disorder.

Without going into my own personal history, these people are not being "emo" or in "sad mode", it is a crippling medical condition that no matter what your circumstances in life are, will. fuck. you. up. Precisely what you wrote is the reason why so many of us have to hide their condition behind masquerade or facade. Please consider this.

As long as Jeph doesn't pull a Doobl! on us, it's all good.

EDIT: For those that don't know, that webcomic author originally wrote a terrible "Christian" webcomic before going insane with his depression, having his main comic character rape and murder all the other characters, then commit suicide before committing suicide in real life.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 13:17 by Tiogyr »
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amandathehunter

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #177 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:17 »

Precisely what you wrote is the reason why so many of us have to hide their condition behind masquerade or facade. Please consider this.

Yes. Exactly this.

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me to just 'get over it', I'd be able to pay off my car right now.

Writing and drawing are forms of self-expression, and that's exactly what Jeph is expressing - himself. He has issues, ergo, his characters have issues. On a larger (and somewhat more charitable scale) I can see each of the main characters as a personification of parts of his psyche. But I'm not going to go into it here as it's a major derail, and I think I've done enough of that today.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #178 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:26 »

Considering how things started between Marten and Faye at the very beginning of this strip, it really isn't that much worse.

Plus, the operative words there were "QC character" immediately after "normal". It's all relative, obviously, but the sudden shift into super-crazy-town Hanners took once the stalking admission happened is what I'm talking about.

Except when Faye and Marten first met, it was a case of "Hey, my name is Faye, I'm new in town, I don't have many friends, can I hang out with you guys?" not "Oh look, new people, I'll follow them and root around their garbage."

As for the Hanners switch, I'm sure many of us do know someone who does suffer from mental illness, and we might have seen what happens when someone switches to a new medication, it can be a little disturbing to see someone's personality completely change overnight. She even admitted that the meds she was on at the time were far more powerful than she was used to. And we can't forget the other incident where she switched meds and walked down to C.O.D. in boyshorts.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #179 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:31 »

What's on tap for this week?

The Eagles make a reappearance Monday!    - 6 (7.7%)
Dora meets Samantha (Jim's daughter)    - 8 (10.3%)
Dora runs into Jim's EX.    - 0 (0%)
Back to the Par-TAY! with Mar & Hanners    - 27 (34.6%)
Sven's new GF - Jim's EX!    - 7 (9%)
Faye and Marten's night    - 12 (15.4%)
The Espressosaur Returns!    - 7 (9%)
Waffles!    - 4 (5.1%)
Drunken Postings!    - 7 (9%)

Total Voters: 78

Don't know if I should post anything new, since this thread seems to be heading towards "LOCK" status.

DAMMIT, guys and gals, I HATE when people cause a thread I STARTED to get LOCKED.

« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 13:36 by jwhouk »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #180 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:35 »

*reads comic*
Uh oh.

*reads thread*
Oh god.

*huddles in corner*
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #181 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:36 »

*reads comic*
Uh oh.

*reads thread*
Oh god.

*huddles in corner*

Its ok Grave, you hide and protect yourself, its too late for most of us.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #182 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:43 »

I mean, bloody hell, are people seriously trying to get another WCDT thread closed? Over a potential epiphany comic? Really? The breakup week got to what? 50 pages? That was a major issue, this, however, is like..... I can't even think of a decent analogue for this.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #183 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:46 »

I shall decide before I go to bed; meanwhile, I have already deleted a post.
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gprimr1

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #184 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:50 »

After watching Millionare Matchmaker for 3 seasons, Marten's personality is consistent with someone from Southern California.

I think Marten's a gentlemen, but I honestly think if you pushed him into a corner enough, he will fight back. It's just he doesn't seen the need to bring conflict into his life. Unless Jeff did a comic where Marten was attacked and let himself get beat up, I would not mistake Marten's passiveness for weakness.

I'm a lot like that, I don't make a big deal over things, go with the wind, but if you try to hurt someone I'm friends with, I'm going Wyatt Earp on you.

Dora to me is used to being treated like trash. If I had to guess, I'd say her boyfriends were players who treated her badly and took advantage of her because in their minds that's what makes a man a man.

Dora couldn't handle a gentleman because it was so much of a shock in the end. Does that make her a bad person? Not in the least, we are each the sum of our experiences, but it does mean she needs to not go into the "it wasn't me it was him" and go into the self examination and realize that sometimes, a gentleman is really a gentleman.
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Sylentknight

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #185 on: 05 Jul 2011, 13:53 »

WOW. I've never been in any forum where the debates got so heated that they shut it down.
Give me a sec to get some popcorn and a drink. I wanna watch and see what happens next.

This is why I always remind myself that it's all just a story. :roll:
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gprimr1

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #186 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:04 »

I am wondering though, is Dora's "duh" moment that she shouldn't even be out with him, or that she was the one who messed up the previous relationship?
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #187 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:13 »

I assumed it was just "oh, whoops, I am on a date right now, maybe I shouldn't tell my date that I shouldn't be on a date". Not so much the thought that she really shouldn't be there. She seems to be enjoying herself, after all.

(Ed.: Or maybe she thinks that she just fucked up with Jim now that he knows about that issue. I wouldn't think so if I were Jim, though.)
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 14:16 by dragontart »
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #188 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:15 »

I assumed it was just "oh, whoops, I am on a date right now, maybe I shouldn't tell my date that I shouldn't be on a date".

Thats how I saw it, not so much "I've just had an epiphany!" but "Well crap, mouth moved faster than my mind."
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gprimr1

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #189 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:18 »

Maybe this will finally help her get back on track.
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grimeyville

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #190 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:28 »

The comic linked above, where Marten's mother demands he apologize to her, and his friends, for his behavior, came across to me as a response of emotional exhaustion. He just got out of a bad breakup in a long term relationship, and his own mother was sneaking off from dinner with him to call his ex and check on her. Arguing with people, yelling at people, being upset - those are all emotionally draining. I think, at the end of the night, the point when this event occurred, he just wanted to go home and sleep. He was done dealing with his mother, and done thinking about Dora. I think it's unfair to use that as an example of a weak self-will.

Suddenly I feel I jumped to conclusions. I didn't mean to use that as an example of weak self-will, so much hmm...

An example of how Marten responds to his parents, showing us how he has become the way he is?

I don't even know if that sounds plausible anymore.  :psyduck:
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #191 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:29 »

Has a WCDT thread ever been locked on the Tuesday of the week?  That's some impressive flamewarrin' there.

I will say, though, that Marten is not at fault.  This was the culmination of a long pattern of insecurities and double standards by Dora.  Marten wasn't perfect - his attachment to Faye really did get to be a bit much at times - and I'd say his conduct with Faye before The Talk was definitely a bit Nice-Guy-ish - but I think anyone who weren't either unconscionably domineering (like all her exes...) or a complete doormat would have eventually come to a similar situation with her.  If it hadn't been what it was, it would have been something else.
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #192 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:31 »

EARFUCK I TELL YOU
Aural sex, then cookies!

I bequeath to thee one internet, or if we're out of those I bequeath instead a tapdancing coconut.

As to the story itself, I thought that was a rather interesting flash of self insight on Doras part. I would arguably put more of the burden on her than him, but I also think that the sudden outburst of insight, combined with realizing what she said out loud was pretty good. I also like Jims expression in the last panel.

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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #193 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:36 »

but I think anyone who weren't either unconscionably domineering (like all her exes...)

I'll stop you there. The only pre-comic ex of Marten's we've ever come across is Vicki, and she wasn't domineering, instead she seemed more passive aggressive, and who resorted to ignoring Marten up until the point she told him it was over when she left California. Other than that, we don't know anything about any of his other exes, so we can't really determine what their personalities were.
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #194 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:36 »

The comic linked above, where Marten's mother demands he apologize to her, and his friends, for his behavior, came across to me as a response of emotional exhaustion. He just got out of a bad breakup in a long term relationship, and his own mother was sneaking off from dinner with him to call his ex and check on her. Arguing with people, yelling at people, being upset - those are all emotionally draining. I think, at the end of the night, the point when this event occurred, he just wanted to go home and sleep. He was done dealing with his mother, and done thinking about Dora. I think it's unfair to use that as an example of a weak self-will.

Suddenly I feel I jumped to conclusions. I didn't mean to use that as an example of weak self-will, so much hmm...

An example of how Marten responds to his parents, showing us how he has become the way he is?

I don't even know if that sounds plausible anymore.  :psyduck:

I think it's accurate to an extent. What got me in the linked comic actually had more to do with wondering if part of Martens passivity might also just be a kind of defense mechanism. Marten has been described as a Manatee on Coedine, and that does sorta fit in some ways but I think it's also worth noting that he does have pretty fair reserves of internal resilience. The problem I had with it was that his mom knew he was at a low point and yet seemed to want to rub salt in the wounds when she showed up, and was in fact much nicer to him when she showed up for a general visit and things were going relatively WELL for him. Martens situation with his dad seems to have been better but I figure there might have been a bit of bitterness when his dad came out and his parents divorced. From what it sounds like the divorce wasn't very amicable though the two eventually reconciled to being friends. I don't know how much it says about Marten per se, but it does seem that he's quite used to being ignored or put upon by those around him. I also want to point out that it was the always snarky Faye and the sometimes imbalanced Hannelore that really did try to help Marten feel better and make things better for him.
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #195 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:38 »

but I think anyone who weren't either unconscionably domineering (like all her exes...)

I'll stop you there. The only pre-comic ex of Marten's we've ever come across is Vicki, and she wasn't domineering, instead she seemed more passive aggressive, and who resorted to ignoring Marten up until the point she told him it was over when she left California. Other than that, we don't know anything about any of his other exes, so we can't really determine what their personalities were.

Her exes was the post, IE all of Doras various exes. She mentioned them being jerks and Sven backed it up. While it is possible that Dora was unreliable I can't see Sven lying to Marten about it, even if he would feel at least slightly compelled to take his sisters side.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #196 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:43 »

but I think anyone who weren't either unconscionably domineering (like all her exes...)

I'll stop you there. The only pre-comic ex of Marten's we've ever come across is Vicki, and she wasn't domineering, instead she seemed more passive aggressive, and who resorted to ignoring Marten up until the point she told him it was over when she left California. Other than that, we don't know anything about any of his other exes, so we can't really determine what their personalities were.

Her exes was the post, IE all of Doras various exes. She mentioned them being jerks and Sven backed it up. While it is possible that Dora was unreliable I can't see Sven lying to Marten about it, even if he would feel at least slightly compelled to take his sisters side.

You know, I read that wrong, my bad.  :lol:
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Schmorgluck

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #197 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:45 »

I am wondering though, is Dora's "duh" moment that she shouldn't even be out with him, or that she was the one who messed up the previous relationship?
Nah, let's be fair to Dora: she's been pretty aware of it from the moment the breakup happened. Before, even.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #198 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:57 »

I am wondering though, is Dora's "duh" moment that she shouldn't even be out with him, or that she was the one who messed up the previous relationship?
Nah, let's be fair to Dora: she's been pretty aware of it from the moment the breakup happened. Before, even.

No, I think it's the "Only now do I realize I fucked up royally" phase.....
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #199 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:59 »

It was Dora realising what she had just caused in the forums.  :laugh:
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