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Poll

What's on for the end of the week?

4 panels of embarrassed silence
- 18 (20.7%)
Running away for ever
- 1 (1.1%)
Bitter recriminations
- 2 (2.3%)
Hugs for closure and acceptance
- 25 (28.7%)
Make-up makeout!
- 4 (4.6%)
Rest of cast jump out shouting "Surprise!"
- 3 (3.4%)
We see something happening in the party
- 4 (4.6%)
Tai rushes out and shoves Marten aside
- 8 (9.2%)
AnthroPCs
- 9 (10.3%)
Jeph has his first day off for years, & no guest strip either
- 13 (14.9%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)  (Read 153759 times)

AngelofShadows

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #200 on: 05 Jul 2011, 14:59 »

.....so I wonder how that party is going. anyone else wonder that?
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #201 on: 05 Jul 2011, 15:10 »

If it hadn't been what it was, it would have been something else.

Plato, take a bow.

You know damn well what I meant.

.....so I wonder how that party is going. anyone else wonder that?

We need to catch up to where we were at the party.  Dora will realize that what's best for her is a one-night stand, change into more casual clothes, pop in and hit on the punk rocker.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 15:12 by Near Lurker »
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Cybit

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #202 on: 05 Jul 2011, 15:23 »

As a "nice guy"...

You don't have to be spineless to be a nice guy.  That said, the line between being nice and spineless, and having a backbone and being a dick are very, very thin, and often subject to interpretation. 

I read the responses about Marten, and I like the irony of the double standard; if Marten ever behaved towards Steve like Steve towards him, Marten would be called out for being a dick, etc.  Yet no one calls Steve out for it. 

To me, the line has always been about whether you're hurting other people for the sake of your own self-esteem.  To me, it seems really clear why Dora broke up with Marten; she was afraid she was second best, and nothing Marten could do could ever convince her otherwise.  Dora, like I would say the majority of human beings, is trying to deal with her stress by having someone else fawn over her / get attention.  It doesn't make her a "bad human being", but it means she's refusing to deal with the root of her problems, and instead, just doing what makes her happy as a way to deal with the inevitable sadness the end of her relationship has caused her.  Everyone wants to be sought after.  Due to the current societal norms, it is easy for Dora to be "sought" after when she wants to be.  She sees an opportunity to be "happy", takes it with Jim, and has now realized "oh oh, I'm not dealing with my issues, am I?" in that conversation. 

The question is, does Dora realize that she has to figure out her own head before she can truly date, or does she take the easy way out? 
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annietiger

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #203 on: 05 Jul 2011, 15:32 »

I've been at work all day & haven't had the chance to add my two cents, so here we go. It's about to get so real.

I relate to Dora. I mean, I really relate to Dora. All my life I've been manipulated, abused, and lied to by the men I should have been able to trust: my father, my brother, my friends, my boyfriends, acquaintances, etc. This all began at a painfully early age and for a long time I wasn't able to control my life (or so I felt). I internalized this abuse, my self esteem plummeted, and sure enough, I dated the alpha males Dora has mentioned in the past which only intensified my problems (and I'm sure hers as well). Did I take out my frustrations on those who didn't deserve it? Certainly. I was hurt, afraid, confused, and had no idea what was going on with myself. Haven't we all felt this way and done/said things we shouldn't have? I see many parallels between Dora & Marten's relationship and my current one. Luckily I'm at a point where I can examine my behavior and sometimes pick out the instances in which I am acting unreasonably (so no, don't think I'm going all Dora on my boyfriend), but then again I've been in therapy for over a year while Dora has yet to do any of the work. It seems like most people are quick to demonize Dora and attack her for her lack of self-awareness, but can any of us honestly say we are fully self-aware? That comes with experience, age, maturity, whatever you want to call it. I don't think Dora has had to face her denial yet because no one has challenged that: not her, not her friends, and certainly not her family (I mean, Sven is so steeped in his own denial...). We see the change coming about (way to go Faye for laying down the law) but she's at the beginning of her path to self-love & acceptance.

I'm interested to see where Jeph takes Marten and Dora. Not necessarily as a couple, but as individuals. I think Dora's "oh shit!" moment is in reference to the realization that she's started down the same path again, going on a date and slowly sliding into a relationship while she needs to focus on herself. I hope she does take the time she needs, but then again, QC is just a comic. Just. A comic.

I would like to add that in no way am I trying to justify Dora's actions: just pointing out that perhaps a little sympathy/understanding is in order.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 15:34 by annietiger »
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DSL

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #204 on: 05 Jul 2011, 15:57 »

Annietiger, thank you for demonstrating:
It's possible to understand without necessarily condoning; and
It's possible to find fault with someone 's actions without demonizing them.
Will it work? Probably not. But thanks for taking the shot.
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annietiger

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #205 on: 05 Jul 2011, 16:01 »

I suppose the forums wouldn't be nearly as interesting if we all remained fair in our judgements and actually tried to see things from other perspectives =)
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idontunderstand

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #206 on: 05 Jul 2011, 16:12 »

I suppose the forums wouldn't be nearly as interesting if we all remained fair in our judgements and actually tried to see things from other perspectives =)

Behold! A sensible post!
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Vista

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #207 on: 05 Jul 2011, 16:15 »

Did I take out my frustrations on those who didn't deserve it? Certainly. I was hurt, afraid, confused, and had no idea what was going on with myself. Haven't we all felt this way and done/said things we shouldn't have?

Personally, I have always been really, really careful with that sort of thing.  But I have had a fairly easy life.  Despite my being unable to walk the mile, I still judge others for "wronging" people who don't deserve it.  Though the judgment is always tempered with the willingness to forgive upon indication of repentance or at least awareness of what one has done.

Quote
It seems like most people are quick to demonize Dora and attack her for her lack of self-awareness, but can any of us honestly say we are fully self-aware?

A problem I have with people that act like the fictional character Dora is that it seems very rare for them to try to seek a higher degree self-awareness.  I am willing to deride her for that unfortunate quirk, while acknowledging that no one is even close to perfect (whatever perfect is).  If our skins are so thin that we cannot be called out for even somewhat realistic interpretations of our behavior, the challenges brought to fore in the last decade were wasted on us.  Which would be a shame.

Quote
I would like to add that in no way am I trying to justify Dora's actions: just pointing out that perhaps a little sympathy/understanding is in order.

I thank you for that.  I'm curious why people find it so hard to simultaneously judge and empathize.  I judge myself when I do something stupid, I will judge others when they do, and if they ask they will know that whatever mistake they have made is both A.) not absolute, B.) important in looking to the future, and C.) not representative of their worth as a person.
My judgment doesn't make them a worse person (or character), it's just a prescription for future personal growth, which can be accepted or rejected as is one's (or one's creator's) wont.  You can't win the lottery without even one ticket.
Unless you're James Tiberius Kirk, of course.
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dragontart

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #208 on: 05 Jul 2011, 16:18 »

Quote
but can any of us honestly say we are fully self-aware?
Funnily, I guess not even if we were fully self-aware.

Quote
The question is, does Dora realize that she has to figure out her own head before she can truly date,
Do you worry about Dora's or her date's mental health if she continues dating before she sorted her brain? Both?
I was thinking about the question if it really wouldn't work to fix her issues and still date someone at the same time, when she AND her date are aware of what she's doing sometimes. Couldn't it be of help to actually have something to work at and to apply her new (future) problem-solving-strategies to?
Well I guess it wouldn't do any good to her if it didn't work out, and also we (and she) don't really know what kind of guy Jim is.
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cesariojpn

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #209 on: 05 Jul 2011, 16:27 »

As long as Jeph doesn't pull a Doobl! on us, it's all good.

EDIT: For those that don't know, that webcomic author originally wrote a terrible "Christian" webcomic before going insane with his depression, having his main comic character rape and murder all the other characters, then commit suicide before committing suicide in real life.

I thought that was the creator of Chugworth Academy?

...........

Oh wait, my mistake. Apparently he draws snuff porn now. Nevermind.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 16:29 by cesariojpn »
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Akima

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #210 on: 05 Jul 2011, 17:14 »

WOW. I've never been in any forum where the debates got so heated that they shut it down.
You don't get out much, do you?  :laugh:

Great art and a nice penny-dropping moment for Dora. As for the rest, I don't think I'll comment, beyond saying that sneering at Jeph's emotional state is a pretty low blow.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #211 on: 05 Jul 2011, 17:43 »

Well, it took a while - and a couple of therapy sessions - but the Lightbulb finally goes off for Dora.

Too bad Jim had to be the one to flip the switch.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #212 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:12 »

Well, it took a while - and a couple of therapy sessions - but the Lightbulb finally goes off for Dora.

Too bad Jim had to be the one to flip the switch.

I imagine its something like a scene from a submarine movie in Jim's head right now, red alert, sirens blaring, submariners running around in an ordered panic and the captain is just sitting in the command chair with a  :? face on him.

Its like that awkward moment in a conversation when someone looks at their watch, looking to get out when the other person has accidently insulted them or has had a TMI moment.
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FrozenPeas

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #213 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:16 »

I'm interested to see where Jeph takes Marten and Dora. Not necessarily as a couple, but as individuals. I think Dora's "oh shit!" moment is in reference to the realization that she's started down the same path again, going on a date and slowly sliding into a relationship while she needs to focus on herself.

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. I was actually surprised by today's instalment, as I was expecting her to actually start dating Jim and then sabotage that relationship before really realizing that she wasn't ready—but this is much more efficient (assuming she follows through with the realization).

I like Dora. I think she and Marten are good together—but, at this point in their character development, they aren't good for each other, and that's because they're both screwed up. While I’ll admit that the obvious problems in the relationship have been Dora’s, there’s one crystallizing moment that revealed, for me, just how screwed up Marten is, too: in strip 1797, Marten jumps from zero to “oh yeah, because if I even BLINK at another girl it’s the end of the fuckin’ world, but you completely BREACHING MY TRUST isn’t ‘that big of a deal.’” Now, even in the vague area of ‘trust issues’ that’s one hell of a friggin’ leap of logic, and it really struck me as odd… and that’s when I realized that that’s what Marten has gone back to every time he and Dora fought.

Whenever they fight, he brings up that one incident with the girl in the library and he redirects the fight to that issue. He uses it as his default weapon in every single fight, which means that there’s something about that incident that is just festering inside of him—and that, right there, is the death of any given relationship. If there is something you can’t get over but aren’t strong enough to deal with, your relationship is already dead; it’s just waiting for the toe-tag.
 
Marten isn’t just passive, he’s passive-aggressive. He doesn’t know how to deal with things so he lets them fester until they either go away or explode—either way, he doesn’t have to take responsibility for it. Even with Dora, he was fine having the same old fight again and again until she called it quits. Marten’s fear of actually taking responsibility for himself and his life is his defining characteristic—and here’s the thing that’s led to most of the more bitter entries in this discussion: that’s what most of us are like, too. That’s why we want him to be right. That’s why we want him to come out on top without having to change and take control of his life. But it isn’t healthy—for him or for us.
 
The quest at the heart of this comic is Marten growing up and learning to deal with the crap that life throws at him. He’s a path-of-least-resistance guy who’s not doing anything of value with his life, which is why he’s stagnating. He’s trapped in that mid-20’s “I’ve got nothing but potential, and I don’t want to lose this opportunity by taking advantage of that one” mindset. Hell, I don’t want to extend an already overly-long post by getting into it here, but that’s probably the biggest challenge for anyone of Jeph’s (and my) generation.

Dora and Marten are both good people who happen to have problems. Her problems are more overt, but his are serious, too. Most of all, though, so far they’ve managed not to bicker back and forth with a lot of painful recriminations, so surely we can manage that, too, don’t you think?
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #214 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:23 »

There is no way in hell Doobl! isn't a joke/hoax.  Even if that's a real youth minister who committed suicide, it's just a name on some backdated comics.
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DSL

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #215 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:25 »

FrozenPeas, I think that's actually a cogent and measured analysis ofthe situation with which Jeph has presented us, and I wanted to say that before your post got buried in flamewarring.
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Kugai

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #216 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:53 »

Well, it took a while - and a couple of therapy sessions - but the Lightbulb finally goes off for Dora.

Too bad Jim had to be the one to flip the switch.

I imagine its something like a scene from a submarine movie in Jim's head right now, red alert, sirens blaring, submariners running around in an ordered panic and the captain is just sitting in the command chair with a  :? face on him.

Its like that awkward moment in a conversation when someone looks at their watch, looking to get out when the other person has accidently insulted them or has had a TMI moment.


I guess you've never served with Marko Ramius
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #217 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:56 »

"I would have liked to have seen Montana."
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #218 on: 05 Jul 2011, 18:58 »

I guess you've never served with Marko Ramius

Better him than Homer Simpson and Mr. Moe!
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #219 on: 05 Jul 2011, 19:02 »

There is no way in hell Doobl! isn't a joke/hoax.  Even if that's a real youth minister who committed suicide, it's just a name on some backdated comics.

Looking at it six years after the fact, I can see why you'd think that, but look at his news posts (specifically, the ones on September 6th and on, there's also the obituary his sister posted on the site after the suicide).

Well, it took a while - and a couple of therapy sessions - but the Lightbulb finally goes off for Dora.

Too bad Jim had to be the one to flip the switch.

I imagine its something like a scene from a submarine movie in Jim's head right now, red alert, sirens blaring, submariners running around in an ordered panic and the captain is just sitting in the command chair with a  :? face on him.

Its like that awkward moment in a conversation when someone looks at their watch, looking to get out when the other person has accidently insulted them or has had a TMI moment.

I'd actually be surprised if Jim didn't take this completely in stride/chalk it up to Dora being that much younger than him. He doesn't seem to be the sharpest crayon in the box so far in terms of what to say/do on a date, himself, after all.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 19:05 by Tiogyr »
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Near Lurker

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #220 on: 05 Jul 2011, 19:20 »

Ah.  I got it backwards; he never existed.

Yeah, you'll notice that the early strips read like a parody of a Christian minister by the kind of person who'd find the second half funny; the blog reads like a Slender Man sighting.
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ChaoKuang

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #221 on: 05 Jul 2011, 19:52 »

Honestly, I'm sad for Dora, and the current update did make me go "Aw, Dora... :(" but at the same time, she brought this on herself. Marten finally reached his breaking point, and the poor guy had worked so hard. Yes, he is passive, but he's also sweet and did a lot for her, and a lot to show her he cared and she was just not some Faye replacement. She, perhaps subconsciously, sabotaged her relationship with Marten to the point it failed. Marten didn't deserve this and my sympathy goes more for him than for her.

On a random, slightly backtracked note, the guy in the pink shirt with the white wings at the college party looks like he'd be a fun character to have around! Hanners should take him home and introduce him to Marten.  :lol:
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #222 on: 05 Jul 2011, 20:38 »

FrozenPeas, I think that's actually a cogent and measured analysis ofthe situation with which Jeph has presented us, and I wanted to say that before your post got buried in flamewarring.

I think anyone who flames FrozenPeas for that post is just outright wrong. S/he wrote it brilliantly.

I think it's ironic - often, the posters who just signed up to comment on one particular issue churn out the most brilliant posts, and not all of us who've been here a while understand the comic as well as the freshies.

P.S. FrozenPeas, what is the answer to that 20's problem of "If I pick this, I'll miss that opportunity"?
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #223 on: 05 Jul 2011, 20:44 »

I've just noticed that Jim in the first panel seems to be mirroring a lot of what Veronica said about her and Henry's relationship after the divorce. Whether or not thats a common occurance in divorces, I don't know, just thought I'd bring it up though.
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annietiger

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #224 on: 05 Jul 2011, 20:50 »

Perhaps. I've talked to my mom about her divorce and she said it was easier to remain civil for me & my siblings' sake, and that it was useless to continue fighting about the same problems because after all, they divorced so it was over and done.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #225 on: 05 Jul 2011, 21:47 »

EARFUCK I TELL YOU
Aural sex, then cookies!

I bequeath to thee one internet, or if we're out of those I bequeath instead a tapdancing coconut.


You now have the choice between one internet AND the tapdancing coconut where the lovely BlackJoker is standing... or you can trade it all for... what's in this box!

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MrBrightsidex87

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #226 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:11 »

I'm almost ashamed to come out of lurker status for something so trivial, but I have to share some excitement with the interwebs!  So, I've been a fan of QC for years now and check it out every day... and have been a Massachusetts transplant for about a year, working and playing in the Northampton area.  Tonight's comic is the first time I've recognized inspiration from the town itself!  Dora and Jim are totally eating Herrell's ice cream and sitting at the base of the steps of Osaka right across the street!!! I'm pretty pumped considering I did the same thing for my birthday a few weeks ago!  Woo!
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #227 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:24 »

Welcome, new person!

What other local landmarks have you spotted?
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #228 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:34 »

(moderator)
There are a lot of good and thoughtful posts being made here, often by relatively new people. Everyone, please build on that. Reply to the good ones, and leave the others to the moderators.
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TRVA123

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #229 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:35 »

There's something that came to my mind: Dora has been pretty passive in her relationship with Marten – past initiating it, I mean. We haven't seen her doing something for Marten, while we've seen him doing things for her – including, but not limited to, putting up (all right, with more or less tact) with her fits of craziness. The only time when she seemed to do some effort is when she finally decided to move in with Marten and Faye instead of insisting for Marten to move in with her – and even then, one could argue that she just changed her mind instead of making an effort (being able to change one's mind instead of being stubborn out of pride or shit like that is still a good point).

Dora did spontaneously buy tickets to a concert after hearing Marten talk about the band. [SCRA, which doesn't exist, but should]

I actually think Dora was holding back the majority of her triggers during the relationship. most (maybe as low as half) of the fights she and Marten had were kind of left field (library girl/haircut). Dora's main anxieties were either centered on her relationship/competition with Sven and the Marten/Faye thing. Dora was probably constantly telling herself that her feelings of paranoia about Marten/Faye were groundless [as we, the semi-omniscient audience knew they were] but not everyone has that magic ability to just make insecurities/feeling disappear.

Dora seems unable to trust in a relationship. Which makes sense in the context of asshole previous boyfriends/manwhore brother getting with her friends (behind her back? *pure speculation, no proof*) It was probably very hard for her to deal with Marten going off to band practice, living with Faye, and whatever else he did in his spare time. This might also be why she immediately went and looked at his porn. Marten had something he didn't want her to see, this triggered her, and she went to look at his porn. (and possibly look for other things on his computer he didn't want her to see. *again, pure speculation*)

These hang ups don't excuse the way Dora treated Marten in the relationship/after the relationship. Explanations are not excuses [often excuses are not excuses] But some credit should be given to Dora for really trying to hold back her anxieties.

[Edit- Dora may have been holding back her anxieties, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't still have a ways to go until she will be in a position to have a healthy trusting relationship with someone.]

my, that post meanders a bit... oh well, the chaos of thoughts.
« Last Edit: 05 Jul 2011, 22:39 by TRVA123 »
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ProfSciencePHD

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #230 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:37 »

Isn't Dora a few years older than Marten? It's been a while since I read through the whole comic, but I think she is. Not sure what relevance it has here (I'm trying not to get involved!) but it's something to think about.

I'm looking forward to seeing a bit more of Marten once this "arc" is over. Which, to be honest, I'm looking forward to. The comic's dragged a bit for me lately, particularly with the Dora-heavy elements.
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #231 on: 05 Jul 2011, 22:38 »

Hmm, Frozenpeas, while I disagree with some of your argument I actually think that you had a good point with Marten bringing up that incident with Cossette. I wonder if some of the reason for it might have either been that for Marten that one was the biggest example of Doras trust issues rearing their head, or if he saw it as the big symbol of their problems (see also the Faye thing. To be fair it's hard to argue that you can't hug a friend in underwear without questions being raised). Part of it might come from some of what happened in other strips where Dora would either playfully flirt with Tai or her sudden daydream fantasy about Hannelore leading to Hannelore begging Marten to make her stop. I am not sure if Marten is passive aggressive exactly but I also see your point, I actually wonder if some of it is more that Marten has a gear of confrontation.

Faye pointed out that he fears conflict during a comic a ways back involving distracting an angry ex of Svens. And I almost wonder if some of Martens problem may have been that he didn't want conflict with Dora so he didn't try to address any of the problems either fearing another argument or just thinking that it was wiser to let sleeping dogs lie. This might be part of the issue too, Doras outbursts were pretty intense but relatively infrequent and Marten might have been afraid of sparking one especially when things seemed to be going well. Instead he kept sitting on things that frustrated him and refused to say them because he didn't want a fight and each time Dora had a harsh reaction he would get more frustrated but also afraid to say anything. I think it's also possible that it might have been less about him bringing up the thing with Cossete as a 'trump' card so much as it was one of the things festering longest and when she violated his privacy after him asking her several times not to he lost it and the longest buried thing surged to the surface first after an insincere apology. Marten was mad enough to actually say what he thought and it led to Dora calling him a vindictive prick and storming off. Given what happened after his mom showed up I seriously wonder more if what we're seeing isn't so much Marten 'growing' as it is him adding another numb layer to himself simply because he figures if he can push the problems down further then maybe things won't go to hell.
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gprimr1

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #232 on: 05 Jul 2011, 23:04 »

I'm almost ashamed to come out of lurker status for something so trivial, but I have to share some excitement with the interwebs!  So, I've been a fan of QC for years now and check it out every day... and have been a Massachusetts transplant for about a year, working and playing in the Northampton area.  Tonight's comic is the first time I've recognized inspiration from the town itself!  Dora and Jim are totally eating Herrell's ice cream and sitting at the base of the steps of Osaka right across the street!!! I'm pretty pumped considering I did the same thing for my birthday a few weeks ago!  Woo!

That's one of the reasons I love OC. I'm a Umass Alumni and did a year at Mt. Holyoke. 

There's a comic where I think Jeff references Antonio's Pizza by the Slice but under a different name.
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VonKleist

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #233 on: 05 Jul 2011, 23:22 »

Dora and Marten are both good people who happen to have problems. Her problems are more overt, but his are serious, too. Most of all, though, so far they’ve managed not to bicker back and forth with a lot of painful recriminations, so surely we can manage that, too, don’t you think?


I didn't read any of the previous stuff because I anticipated it was all pointless flaming and overly long analyses..

well, you about sum shit up! :wink:


Then again, i can't lay blame on Marten, it´s, as you pointed out, what comes natural to most human beings because were for the most part lazy f***s.
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WAYF

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #234 on: 06 Jul 2011, 00:03 »

A really well thought-out and civil argument

FrozenPeas's post is indeed brilliant, not least because it actually made me adjust my views a little bit even though I disagree with a lot of what is being said.

Firstly, I'll say that I think you're right about Marten being passive-agressive and waiting for opportunities to come to him. The problem I think is that, as has been said in the WCDT for the breakup arc and several times since then, Marten's had a weird up-bringing and a relationship with Faye that, to begin with, wasn't exactly healthy. And as it has turned out, the best way to survive everything that has been thrown at him has been to be passive-agressive. Or maybe it's just the only way he knows.

Secondly, I think that Marten had every right to bring that up, given that Dora not only turned it into a test (and Marten probably didn't think much of it at the time), but since then she was somewhat hypocritically flirting with Tai. I know that I'm only mentioning things that other people have mentioned before, but I'd like to think that that's because they're legitimate points to make. And to be fair, the time Cosette asked him out wasn't the only time he did more than blink at another girl (Yes, that again). I imagine that that particular issue might have been weighing a lot more on his mind than it normally would as a result (that only happened like two days before the breakup, right?)

But I will admit that I am perhaps a lot more inclined to side with Marten than I am with any of the other characters. And he does have flaws which I tend to overlook or ignore because of that. I don't think there's any sort of quest involved or lesson to be learned vis-a-vis being more assertive/decisive, but I do see why it would be a positive step forward.


Thanks for that.  :-)
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #235 on: 06 Jul 2011, 01:15 »

Those who have been concerned about Jeph's well-being should be pleased to know that he has tweeted that he is about to start drawing today's comic; so, no need to panic.
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KingofHearts

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #236 on: 06 Jul 2011, 01:18 »

I would like to add another reason they broke up is like so many relationships. A lack of communication. If Dora realized that Marten had passive tendencies and if Marten realized that Dora had insecurity issues, why didn't they both say something to each other like adults are supposed to? Because we live in a society where we don't share our feelings?

Admittedly I have a very similar personality to Marten.  I had a girlfriend a year ago and we broke up in a very similar fashion to the to the way Dora and Marten broke up. We had a fun year together but every now and then we would have these stupid fights that never really got the heart of what we felt about each other. If we had been both sensibly adults and said what we felt about each other then we would have at least been able to get along together better.

Plus Marten as far as I can see it, didn't have the most healthiest of upbringings. While Dora's issues are fairly obvious Marten aren't until you look back on all those strips.

So apparently me and Blackjack are the only two people on this board who love G Gundam. 8-)
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2011, 01:35 by KingofHearts »
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WAYF

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #237 on: 06 Jul 2011, 02:20 »


But Dora's objection wasn't that he was flirting with Cosette (because he wasn't) - it's that he wasn't open with her about the incident.

Well, I've gone back and read that comic, and to me it seems like Marten just didn't think that getting asked out by a girl was such a big deal. I mean, he refused pretty quickly, and explained that he was seeing someone at the moment. It was all pretty diplomatically dealt with and took less than 15 seconds out of his day. Maybe he didn't even remember it properly by the time he came to CoD later that day.

I mean, you might be right, but I don't think that Marten was deliberately trying to hide it from her. I reckon it's easy to say things like this in hindsight, because when you're panicking you say a lot of stuff that vaguely forms excuses. Maybe that's just me.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #238 on: 06 Jul 2011, 02:22 »

But what is "openness"?  He thought it not especially worth mentioning, whereas she viewed that as hiding it.
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"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

Mr. Doctor

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #239 on: 06 Jul 2011, 02:31 »

Thanks for the info, pwhodges. I don't have twitter so I was getting a bit worried.  :-)
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ysth

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #240 on: 06 Jul 2011, 03:10 »

He's trying not to laugh.
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Tiogyr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #241 on: 06 Jul 2011, 03:20 »

But what is "openness"?  He thought it not especially worth mentioning, whereas she viewed that as hiding it.

Probably more the body language in his reaction when she first started to confront him about it, the "oh shit!" flinch and cringe thing, like he had something to feel guilty about.

If it isn't a big deal (it was and he knew that it would be by this point in his relationship with Dora), when Dora said "So, anything weird happen today?" he would have immediately said exactly what he was going to say in the "Wait, let me start over!" panel.

It's kind of hard to really make character judgments since the whole situation was played by Jeph as an "LOL, look at these awkward people having jealousy issues!" joke, but yeah, in real life unless you're literally turning other people down on a daily basis getting asked out is worthy of a "Funny you should ask, someone asked me out at work today" story.
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amandathehunter

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #242 on: 06 Jul 2011, 03:46 »

Just read today's comic. I feel like I'm having Flashbacks.
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Delator

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #243 on: 06 Jul 2011, 03:47 »

Everyone say it with me now...

D'AAAWWWWWW



...now let's get to the f***ing party!
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Welu

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #244 on: 06 Jul 2011, 03:56 »

Jim is awesome. That is all.

michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #245 on: 06 Jul 2011, 04:02 »

Just read today's comic. I feel like I'm having Flashbacks.
you too? So Dora gets the fayelike feelings? Maybe Martens mom is the one to blame next :D
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2011, 04:10 by michael28 »
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TinPenguin

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #246 on: 06 Jul 2011, 04:09 »

Good man, Jim. Good man.

But what is "openness"?  He thought it not especially worth mentioning, whereas she viewed that as hiding it.

It's not good to be sealed shut, but openness is not by default a good thing. I think honesty is more crucial to relationships of any kind, romantic or otherwise. Honesty is not about telling everybody everything. It isn't necessarily even about always telling the truth. It's about not attempting to deceive anybody, and I don't think Marten for a moment had deception in mind.

I think it's probable that he did deliberately think 'better not tell Dora about this one!' in the interests of keeping the peace. It wasn't about deceiving her, it was just, as with the issue with the porn, that some things are best kept private. I once casually mentioned to my ex that another girl had said I was good-looking, and it spiralled into a big argument where we both overreacted. With that kind of thing in mind, Marten knew it would do no harm if he didn't tell her, and he didn't want to risk it becoming a big deal. Unfortunately for him, Dora found out by other means and it became an even bigger deal, but that's not his fault.

There are no clear-cut answers to issues like this, and that's why it's interesting to discuss them.
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bhtooefr

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #247 on: 06 Jul 2011, 04:35 »

With that, Jim gained a lot of respect in my eyes.
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WAYF

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #248 on: 06 Jul 2011, 04:38 »

I feel like I'm watching a completely different Dora to the one who used to flirt shamelessly with Marten.
(well, ok, sometimes she was a little bit shameful, but it's a figure of speech :P )

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Although it could be under the wrong circumstances. Marten didn't initially know about Dora's insecurities after all.
Aanyway, let's hear it for Ultra-Charitable-Jim (as people have said, he's behaving a lot like Marten did in 509) and for Dora having the good sense to act (or not as the case may be) in accordance with her current emotional state.
In summary, I'd say this date was a bad idea that turned into an actually-pretty-good idea thanks to Dora's realization.


Now let's get back to the party. :D
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Sylentknight

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #249 on: 06 Jul 2011, 04:38 »

Just read today's comic. I feel like I'm having Flashbacks.

Wow. I'd forgotten all of this. Go to the link and read forward a bit and you'll see what I mean. Hanner's could be a bit of a hard a$$ back in the day. I kinda miss that.
Dora had her "big talk" with Jeff, which makes sense since anyone else is too close to the situation and friends with Marten. And while Marten did have his drunken moment he lost out on the wisdom of Jim, the Redneck Writer. I think "Mopy" Marten may need a testosterone intervention at this point with Steve, Jim and maybe Wil, all of whom are far enough removed to see things Marten can't. Or maybe just Hannelore, since she was his first psychoanalyst.  :-)
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2011, 04:40 by Sylentknight »
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