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Poll

What's on for the end of the week?

4 panels of embarrassed silence
- 18 (20.7%)
Running away for ever
- 1 (1.1%)
Bitter recriminations
- 2 (2.3%)
Hugs for closure and acceptance
- 25 (28.7%)
Make-up makeout!
- 4 (4.6%)
Rest of cast jump out shouting "Surprise!"
- 3 (3.4%)
We see something happening in the party
- 4 (4.6%)
Tai rushes out and shoves Marten aside
- 8 (9.2%)
AnthroPCs
- 9 (10.3%)
Jeph has his first day off for years, & no guest strip either
- 13 (14.9%)

Total Members Voted: 79


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Author Topic: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)  (Read 95033 times)

Skewbrow

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #600 on: 09 Jul 2011, 13:06 »

@FrozenPeas:

Thanks for the interesting thoughts. You are undoubtedly very close to the mark. A couple of random thoughts occurred to me while reading your post.

1. You can say: "It's just a webcomic" in so many ways - all depending. The objective could be a bona fide attempt to let the other person (or oneself) off the hook. We realize (been there /seen it many times) that a normally sane fellow forumite occasionally just can't let go a dearly held position. IOW it is a desperate attempt to find their reset button. It could also be a way to remind ourselves that contrary to the popular belief there is life outside QC. This does not necessarily contradict your intrepretation, but whenever I say that (mostly to myself) it is always an act of worship to Jeph's storytelling. Narrativium at work?

2. The back story of your research got me thinking. How can we be sure that we ('we' as in 'the posters of this forum') are not guinea pigs in your giant lab, now? Assuming that you're working towards your PhD. Or now that we're aware of our role as hamsters running inside a wheel, our usefulness as objects of research may be compromised? But, hey, we are saving you tons of money by giving you free research material! I will totally promise to be unaware of my labrat status, if you pay for beer and pizza at the end of the year party.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #601 on: 09 Jul 2011, 13:17 »

Man this shit got serious, fast.

Just to speak up on the subject: I don't think Marten is a saint, and in fact enjoyed his lashing out at Faye because I felt like he was finally developing and going places. Only through great adversity... well you know the rest. Though I don't see him as perfect, I'm very invested in his growth as a character, very much so because of the reasons that FrozenPeas brought up. Marten very much reminds me of how I was during my high school years: very passive and non-confrontational, to the point that it was a detriment to my life. Thus I see a bit of myself in Marten, and am interested and rooting for him in regards to his growth as a character. I'll be dead honest: the last few months of comics have been frustrating me to no end, because Marten really hasn't been going anywhere. Just sulking at tsb and avoiding Dora. That's why I squeed like a little girl when Dora showed up at the party. Finally, he has to face his fears and move on.

Jeph displays his talent for character writing in that he gives each of our main cast members some type of hurdle they must overcome in order to grow and be satisfied. For Dora and Faye it is event(s) in their past that they have to move on from. For Hanners and Marigold, they have to overcome fundamental issues of their personality (crippling OCD and social anxiety, respectively.) Marten, however; I fell has the most difficult challenge in that he has to deal with both of the aforementioned. Both his past relationships, and his fundamental character traits of passivity and non-confrontational attitude need to be overcome for him to really "grow-up". I'd go on, but I don't want this to turn into Part III of my "The Fundamental Character of Marten" essay/rant.

I'll wrap up by saying that in no way is Marten perfect of a saint, and I do see that far too many people give him more and more slack. However I don't see how he's done anything to deserve having everything and anything ripped away from him, and for that to be called "justice." We've seen repeatedly that Marten feels lost in his life, and is trying to find direction and purpose. In that quest many people fall to dark places trying to find their way.

...Wow I type way too much. This is the reason we can't have nice things.  :psyduck:
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #602 on: 09 Jul 2011, 13:24 »

@FrozenPeas:

Interestingly enough, a good portion of that wall of text up there is what I mean when I say to myself "It's just a webcomic." To me that means I'm entitled to interpret it the way I want, and I'm certainly not entitled to deny anyone else's opinion unless it is something that has been clearly shown in the comic to be wrong. This forum and specifically these WCDTs seem to (by nature of their name even) encourage discussion, and sometimes discussion becomes debate, and when I read two pages of people arguing while I've been at work or asleep or whatever, I think of at least a dozen things I want to say, but I have to calm down and remind myself "It's just a webcomic," and when I've done that, if there are still lingering thoughts, I'll post them. I've gotten several times to the end of a reply, pointer hovering over the "Post" button, and decide what I have to say doesn't contribute to the discussion in a healthy manner, so I just delete it.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #603 on: 09 Jul 2011, 14:01 »

Man this shit got serious, fast.

Just to speak up on the subject: I don't think Marten is a saint, and in fact enjoyed his lashing out at Faye because I felt like he was finally developing and going places. Only through great adversity... well you know the rest. Though I don't see him as perfect, I'm very invested in his growth as a character, very much so because of the reasons that FrozenPeas brought up. Marten very much reminds me of how I was during my high school years: very passive and non-confrontational, to the point that it was a detriment to my life. Thus I see a bit of myself in Marten, and am interested and rooting for him in regards to his growth as a character. I'll be dead honest: the last few months of comics have been frustrating me to no end, because Marten really hasn't been going anywhere. Just sulking at tsb and avoiding Dora. That's why I squeed like a little girl when Dora showed up at the party. Finally, he has to face his fears and move on.

Jeph displays his talent for character writing in that he gives each of our main cast members some type of hurdle they must overcome in order to grow and be satisfied. For Dora and Faye it is event(s) in their past that they have to move on from. For Hanners and Marigold, they have to overcome fundamental issues of their personality (crippling OCD and social anxiety, respectively.) Marten, however; I fell has the most difficult challenge in that he has to deal with both of the aforementioned. Both his past relationships, and his fundamental character traits of passivity and non-confrontational attitude need to be overcome for him to really "grow-up". I'd go on, but I don't want this to turn into Part III of my "The Fundamental Character of Marten" essay/rant.

I'll wrap up by saying that in no way is Marten perfect of a saint, and I do see that far too many people give him more and more slack. However I don't see how he's done anything to deserve having everything and anything ripped away from him, and for that to be called "justice." We've seen repeatedly that Marten feels lost in his life, and is trying to find direction and purpose. In that quest many people fall to dark places trying to find their way.

...Wow I type way too much. This is the reason we can't have nice things.  :psyduck:

Just pretend I used that "Clapping Kane" Gif from a few weeks ago, that's perhaps the best way it could ever be put.

(collar-tug).. I better just come back on Monday, I think.

Whoa, wait for me, buddy. I´m with you.

If you´re headed to the next bar that is.

Sure, just remember. Those 3 stools at the end are reversed for the Bros.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #604 on: 09 Jul 2011, 15:58 »

Hodgson's Law/Bellisario's Maxim, people.

It's just a webcomic.

And your point?  You've made over 2100 posts over "just a webcomic".

If people want to argue something in the comic, let them.  Just because YOU don't want them to debate doesn't mean you can belittle people having serious discussions. 
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #605 on: 09 Jul 2011, 16:04 »

And your point?  You've made over 2100 posts over "just a webcomic".

If people want to argue something in the comic, let them.  Just because YOU don't want them to debate doesn't mean you can belittle people having serious discussions. 

Its 2100 posts from someone who has been on here for over 2 years, and has from what I've seen has been the person who has been the person responsible for the vast majority of the WCDTs, that includes posting them, updating them, commenting on them.
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michael28

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #606 on: 09 Jul 2011, 16:23 »

Man, all this shouting over relationships and breakups makes me glad to be a celibate hero.
ah you're in a committed relationship that long, what's your golf handicap?  :-D

Huh? No, by that I mean no relationships, as in never having been in one, and celibate, as in no sex, past, present and probably future. (For the record, I'm 26 and have never played golf, although I must admit to having watched it on telly a few times, didn't do much for me.)
Just a marriage joke in Germany: "do you still have sex, or are you already playing golf". That is actually something we don't have very often.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #607 on: 09 Jul 2011, 16:26 »

Just because YOU don't want them to debate doesn't mean you can belittle people having serious discussions.

He wasn't belittling anyone, nor suggesting that the debate shouldn't continue - after all, as you point out yourself, he's contributed a lot (though I should remind you that the count includes any contributions to other parts of the forum as well).  He was just pointing out that the level of seriousness has at times got too extreme in the last couple of days (which is the reason that I  have had to step in to stop it getting too heated - please don't try to start that up again, which your personal remark is in danger of doing).
« Last Edit: 09 Jul 2011, 16:28 by pwhodges »
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Tova

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #608 on: 09 Jul 2011, 16:33 »

And your point?  You've made over 2100 posts over "just a webcomic".

If people want to argue something in the comic, let them.  Just because YOU don't want them to debate doesn't mean you can belittle people having serious discussions. 

I daresay it wasn't an attempt to stop debate entirely. You said yourself that jwhouk has made over 2100 posts - that doesn't sound like someone who wants to quell debate to me. It was the manner in which the debate was at times being conducted that brought on the post.

Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Meh. I took too much time considering my words. I'll go ahead and hit the post button anyway.

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Castlerook

Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #609 on: 09 Jul 2011, 17:01 »

Meh. I took too much time considering my words.

Thats not a bad thing. All too often words are just picked in the heat of the moment and any impact they might have had is lost because the meaning wasn't considered.
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stoutfiles

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #610 on: 09 Jul 2011, 17:18 »

Just because YOU don't want them to debate doesn't mean you can belittle people having serious discussions.

He wasn't belittling anyone, nor suggesting that the debate shouldn't continue - after all, as you point out yourself, he's contributed a lot (though I should remind you that the count includes any contributions to other parts of the forum as well).  He was just pointing out that the level of seriousness has at times got too extreme in the last couple of days (which is the reason that I  have had to step in to stop it getting too heated - please don't try to start that up again, which your personal remark is in danger of doing).

I had interpreted it that he didn't approve of the conversation and was bashing them for taking the comic too seriously.  Yes, it's just a comic, but one that everyone here reads daily and seems to take pretty seriously.  I'll jump out of this thread though, my bad.
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FrozenPeas

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #611 on: 09 Jul 2011, 17:38 »

@FrozenPeas:

Thanks for the interesting thoughts. You are undoubtedly very close to the mark. A couple of random thoughts occurred to me while reading your post.

1. You can say: "It's just a webcomic" in so many ways - all depending. The objective could be a bona fide attempt to let the other person (or oneself) off the hook. We realize (been there /seen it many times) that a normally sane fellow forumite occasionally just can't let go a dearly held position. IOW it is a desperate attempt to find their reset button. It could also be a way to remind ourselves that contrary to the popular belief there is life outside QC. This does not necessarily contradict your interpretation, but whenever I say that (mostly to myself) it is always an act of worship to Jeph's storytelling. Narrativium at work?

You’ve got an excellent point, here. Getting lost in the narrative is the other extreme, and that certainly doesn’t do anyone any good. If one never applies what one has learned, through interaction with the narrative, to one’s life, what good is the lesson? Everything in moderation and all that.

Quote
2. The back story of your research got me thinking. How can we be sure that we ('we' as in 'the posters of this forum') are not guinea pigs in your giant lab, now? Assuming that you're working towards your PhD. Or now that we're aware of our role as hamsters running inside a wheel, our usefulness as objects of research may be compromised? But, hey, we are saving you tons of money by giving you free research material! I will totally promise to be unaware of my labrat status, if you pay for beer and pizza at the end of the year party.

Heh heh heh. I’m not actually doing my Ph.D. right now, but the work continues. Fear not, my research is confined to reading the work of others at this point, as I’ve recently started expanding my study into an entirely new area.

Anyhoo, rest assured, any mind games I decide to play are purely for my own amusement.

I've gotten several times to the end of a reply, pointer hovering over the "Post" button, and decide what I have to say doesn't contribute to the discussion in a healthy manner, so I just delete it.

I do that all the time, and I think it helps in the long run. An obnoxious side-effect of being human is that we don’t tend to really solidify our thoughts until we’ve expressed them, either through speech or writing—so if the deleted text helped me sort out my own thoughts, or see a fault that I hadn’t seen while the thought was floating around my head, then it’s done its job, even if no one else ever sees it.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #612 on: 09 Jul 2011, 17:50 »

No, it was more that we all need to take a breather and remember to not take things so seriously.

And I'm gonna want Tuesday's comic as a framed original print for my birthday in October, thanks.

(My 44th birthday - do the math.)
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Tova

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #613 on: 09 Jul 2011, 18:03 »

And I'm gonna want Tuesday's comic as a framed original print for my birthday in October, thanks.

(My 44th birthday - do the math.)

Mine will be Thursday's comic, but I think I'll wait to see what comic Jeph decides to do on that day before attaching any significance to it.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #614 on: 09 Jul 2011, 18:17 »

Mine'll be four weeks after J-dub's.  (Not quite twenty years, though, mine is in late August)
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #615 on: 09 Jul 2011, 19:52 »

Reading this comic again made me realize how much I miss these two talking to each other while single. Dora's smirk at Marten's awkwardness? So good.
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themacnut

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #616 on: 09 Jul 2011, 21:20 »

It has been mentioned that some may want Marten to apologize for his drunken remarks to Faye. I've been thinking about that, and I have to ask; how can he apologize for something he obviously doesn't even remember doing/saying? Would such an apology really even mean anything?

Faye herself seems to have decided an apology wasn't important, hence her "encouraging" Marten to drop the subject when he bought it up next morning.
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wrwight

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #617 on: 09 Jul 2011, 21:34 »

What post are you referring to? The only one I see that mentions anything about Marten apologizing does so in the context of saying what you just did, that he can't apologize because he doesn't remember.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #618 on: 09 Jul 2011, 21:45 »

I felt like creating a wordle from this thread, just for amusement and cusiosity.

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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #619 on: 10 Jul 2011, 00:07 »

although we’re all interacting with the text in different ways, what’s important is that all of those ways are incredibly intimate and personal, [...] So, [...] it’s important that, when we do get worked up, we [...] remember that not everyone is sharing our idiosyncratic experience and [...] examine why we’re so invested in the text,

Or as I often express it, people relate to the story in different ways. 

Some people are only aware of their own interpretation, which bears on their personal life experiences, and may tend to see the presentation of an alternative view of the story as being an attack on theirs, and hence an attack on the validity of their own lives.  This leads them to respond with a vehemence that can appear to come out of nowhere, and which seems out of proportion when a wider range of interpretations is considered; it's also what leads to the arguments getting personal.  I see one of my roles as moderator being to try to get over to people that this is what is happening when they get so worked up (and - a real problem at times, this - to do that without coming over as patronising).

So if there is, as someone suggested, a split of this community into two parts, I would characterise them as being those who see the story as related solely to their own lives, and those who have found how to relate it to the lives of others as well, and thus see it with a wider perspective.  The groups probably have differently skewed age distributions, because of the wider range of experiences that age tends to bring, though I would emphasise that there is not a simple youth/adult division.
« Last Edit: 10 Jul 2011, 00:10 by pwhodges »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #620 on: 10 Jul 2011, 01:35 »

I'm glad Dora and Marten are talking. I wonder if this means he won't be returning to tSB.
I really need to know if the whole world is weird or if it's just me: WHAT THE FUCK COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD MAGICALLY MAKE MARTEN UNABLE TO VISIT THE SECRET BAKERY?

Others have answered this already with my thoughts and more but figured I'd say the thought I had while posting. Marten started going to tSB because he couldn't go to CoD right after the break-up. He's already gone to CoD once but Dora wasn't there. Now Dora and him are talking and she's straight asked him to come by. He'll probably go between the two for a while till the awkwardness totally fades. Plus CoD has tSB's baked goods too so he won't need to go there just for those.
My post was almost completely stupid. I think I was drunk when I wrote it. Ah well, at least I didn't call anyone names.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #621 on: 10 Jul 2011, 01:38 »

I don't really see the community as divided into two distinct groups. Regardless of which two groups are picked.

Rather, there seems to be a spectrum of how personal people take the comic, and that's not always clear. I tend to be pretty detached, since I don't identify with any particular character, but I love to rev up the engine of righteous indignation when any particular character suffers what I'd take as a personal slight. Of course, part of the spectrum is "I don't care", but that's always confused me a little. There are hundreds or maybe thousands of webcomics I don't read about and don't care about, and I don't join their forums or post. So I'm unable to understand why anyone who doesn't care a whit about QC is even here.

I'm looking forward to the Dora/Marten conversation. I hope they're honest, and as blunt as possible without inciting rage. I also can accept that the conversation I'm hoping for won't happen for a while. So be it. I'm also hoping Tai makes an appearance- it is her party, after all. Is she really going to be unaware of her crush and her employee having an emotionally charged conversation on the porch? Maybe, but if so she's probably drunk/stoned.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #622 on: 10 Jul 2011, 01:53 »

Unaware? Unlikely. The real question is "Will she care?", and I think that depends on her level of sobriety. I also think that she's much more likely to suffer the same fate Marten did in the oft-referenced screw-up comic than to actually make it out the door to interrupt at this point. That would also make an entertaining comic though..
I would like to see her make an appearance at her own party as well, though her absence could easily be explained the next time Marten sees her at work.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #623 on: 10 Jul 2011, 03:20 »

employee is a bit much for the working relationship of Marten and Tai, as I see it they're colleagues with Tai having seniority.
« Last Edit: 10 Jul 2011, 03:43 by michael28 »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #624 on: 10 Jul 2011, 05:06 »

employee is a bit much for the working relationship of Marten and Tai, as I see it they're colleagues with Tai having seniority.

Hmm - she did handle his interview, such as it was.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #625 on: 10 Jul 2011, 05:13 »

Please remember: this is the same lady who not only passed out drunk on his shoulder, but then head-butted him in the 'nads and then puked in his lap.

There's not much that Marten could do or say, short of bodily harm to Faye, over which she would have given him a pass - especially when he was drunk.

And she also took care of him in a rather expedient manner, if you recall (and even if Marten did not).
« Last Edit: 10 Jul 2011, 05:20 by jwhouk »
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #626 on: 10 Jul 2011, 10:45 »

There was (next to) zero chance of Marten's drunken 'advance' making a dent in the armour of his friendship with Faye. Here's my translation of their exchange the morning after from F&M to English:

Marten: "Man, where did I get this huge bump on the side of the head?" (Curiously enough, this is almost the same in English. A vague recollection of a drunken pass and an incoming fist is implied, though.)
Faye: "Owls." (You were drunk. I knocked you out. Trust me. It was best for both of us.)
Marten: "Owls?" (Dang. Sorry, Faye. Guess I deserved it. What happened? Did I hurt you?)
Faye: "Owls." (I'm ok. It's ok. You had just been dumped. You were drunk. There is no reason to talk about last night ever again.)

I do have a tendency to read too much into some things, though :roll:. But Faye and Marten both remember the "space owl incident" with agent Turing, so I think that the message was clear enough.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #627 on: 10 Jul 2011, 12:09 »

Tai gave Marten time off in 1092, so she's his supervisor.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #628 on: 10 Jul 2011, 12:54 »

He called her "boss" when he first introduced her to the others: 776
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #629 on: 10 Jul 2011, 14:59 »

Here's my translation of their exchange the morning after from F&M to English <...>

I like that interpretation, but I admit that mine was different, albeit fourth-wall breaking: while Faye could have just told Marten that he stumbled and hit his head on the way to bed, 'OWLS' was simply waaay funnier.
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #630 on: 13 Jul 2011, 04:08 »

I'll say only 14 pages...

...it's like The Price is Right; you want to be closest without going over.   :-D


We'll see if I'm caterwauling by this time tomorrow.

13 pages.  :evil:

You win.  :wink:
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Re: WCDT: Independence Day Week (4 - 8 July, 1961-1965)
« Reply #631 on: 15 Aug 2011, 16:36 »

Apropos of nothing else, since other people observe this particular milestone, I might as well also -- albeit a bit belatedly.  #1965 is MY "birth year strip"...
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