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Poll

What will Marten do?

Call back right away and apologize.
Run to her apartment and apologize.
Wait until tomorrow, and get arrested at the airport trying to apologize at the gate.
Call/go over and ask for an explanation.
Decide it's a lost cause, toast a waffle or two, and try to move on.

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Author Topic: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)  (Read 135804 times)

quix0te

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #400 on: 13 Jan 2012, 05:48 »

I thought Douglas Adams was awesome until I started reading Terry Pratchett (Specifically 'Lords and Ladies' and 'Small Gods').  Pratchett treads a lot of the same ground but in a more positive tone and with a humanistic message.  Also, Dirk Gently's cost him a lot of cred for me.
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #401 on: 13 Jan 2012, 05:53 »

truestatic, I would like to commend you for being someone with an opposing viewpoint who has articulated it without resorting to generalizations/sexism/general tomfoolery and I don't feel I let you know that you are in fact p. cool.

But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P
I probably sympathize with him more than I should, objectively speaking.  He is the protagonist though, so that'll happen.  And thank you, that's cool of you to say.  Despite Jeph's twitter and some general accusations of sexism, pretty much everyone here has seemed to promote a pretty pleasant atmosphere, yourself included.  "I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion" is a rare commodity on the internet, and its nice to find it here.  =]

They were not always so pleasant, I fear, and the civilizing influence is mostly from Mr. Hodges' tireless and doubtlessly thankless moderation efforts. that's part of why I jumped on the sexism thing: it's been a real problem around here in the past, and it hasn't gone away, and it should. There's no place for that sort of attitude here or anywhere.

Also "let Marten shit on the girl's heart" is a fantastic example of bad posting and the aforementioned bad attitude, and it doesn't surprise me that Jeph fixated on that. The dude has reasons to hate this place. Back during the Dora/Marten breakup...my God, what a dark time D:

So yes, it's more pleasant than he made it seem, bur we got a long way to go as a community :/
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #402 on: 13 Jan 2012, 05:58 »

I think it's pretty presumptive of Jeph to pop in, look at ONE single post by a newbie then assume the entire forum is acting that way. We try pretty damn hard to get along around here and such. We aren't all running around here screaming about pooping on people's hearts, ya know?

I expect that on reflection Jeph realises that; he does look over our shoulders from time to time now (after a period of avoiding the forum altogether), even though he rarely comments. 

But you joined the forum at a time that there was a sudden blow-up followed by decent control through the new order; you may not realise that the forum had been that bad almost continuously from 2008 (when I joined) and I believe some time before.  In early 2008 - four years ago - Jeph described this forum (in the private moderators' area) as "a fetid sewer and I don't think that's ever going to change".  It has changed, with some effort - but Jeph had years  of seeing it in that state, and a single post can easily trigger his misgivings as it did yesterday.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #403 on: 13 Jan 2012, 06:00 »

Whether she had a good reason or not, that had to have been one long, sad ride down the Mass Pike. Wouldn't be surprised if she was bawling by the time she got to the Ted Williams Tunnel.

Point of order (and BOY do I have a lot of stuff to catch up on): It's pretty likely she went out of Bradley International out of Hartford. It's a lot closer and less of a hassle.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #404 on: 13 Jan 2012, 06:11 »

I think it's pretty presumptive of Jeph to pop in, look at ONE single post by a newbie then assume the entire forum is acting that way. We try pretty damn hard to get along around here and such. We aren't all running around here screaming about pooping on people's hearts, ya know?

I expect that on reflection Jeph realises that; he does look over our shoulders from time to time now (after a period of avoiding the forum altogether), even though he rarely comments. 

But you joined the forum at a time that there was a sudden blow-up followed by decent control through the new order; you may not realise that the forum had been that bad almost continuously from 2008 (when I joined) and I believe some time before.  In early 2008 - four years ago - Jeph described this forum (in the private moderators' area) as "a fetid sewer and I don't think that's ever going to change".  It has changed, with some effort - but Jeph had years  of seeing it in that state, and a single post can easily trigger his misgivings as it did yesterday.
Oh.  Well then thanks.  I'm not a big fan of fetid sewers, and if that's what it was really like, then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.
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jurialmunkey

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #405 on: 13 Jan 2012, 06:55 »

Long time lurker, first time poster etc. etc. etc.

In regards to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2091

[ ... ]

But, as life is not like tv, instead we have Marten being passive aggressive...
Good first, nice and clean.
But thats a LOT of assumptions especially as to the emotional state of Padma. Getting the image of being "star-crossed lovers" in your head normally takes more time than they've had.
And even if she has it stuck up there, she should be much more emotionally and romantically experienced than to manouver Marten into a forced confession like that... at least, judging from the way she handled the Elliot-situation and the beginning of the Marten-fling she should be....

(I love assumptions btw.)

By star crossed lovers, I mean in the Romeo and Juliet sense - they love each other but fate constantly stands in the way (fate in this case being a sick grandma). I was kind of being hyperbolic to stress the "lovers confusion" trope/angle. I'm not necessarily saying that Padma was trying to get Marten to profess his undying love, rather that she was just looking for some sort of verification that they were on the same page. Instead, what happened was Marten obliviously blundering into the opposite of playing it cool and making a joke rather than being serious and understanding. Basically, I'm saying that Padma was looking for a sign to say that the stars were aligned, but Marten's blundering instead made her feel as if the stars were crossed. My assumption is that for Padma to absolutely be sure to stay everything had to feel exactly right, and Marten's comment made it feel a little off. Imagine if she decided to stay and something didn't feel right, then her Grandma suddenly got really sick again. That sort of thing really weighs on the conscience.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #406 on: 13 Jan 2012, 07:23 »

Have you never put off doing something because of the pain it will cause (to yourself even, not necessarily others), even though putting it off will cause more pain later?  I know I have.  So how about this:

Padma wanted to delay going; when she tried to arrange it, her family put pressure on her (and how they can!) not to change her plans (possibly even before their last night together, which is why she was so conflicted); she couldn't bear to tell Marten, and so avoided him until there was no further option.  This avoidance was sad, though understandable in a flawed world; Marten's reaction was equally unfortunate, but somewhat understandable.  I have sympathy with them both, but also would like to knock their heads together...

You forgot one key thing: family may have done more than pressure. They may have done a Marten's mom number. "I'm coming to Massachusetts, I'm going to pick you up, and that is FINAL, young lady."

Either way, I agree whole-heartedly, sir.
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idontunderstand

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #407 on: 13 Jan 2012, 07:47 »

then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.

Suckup!  :-D

Anyway, I still contend that Marten just need a fucking hug. He felt rejected and acted childishly. Padma is losing part of her family, is moving away from friends and work and hometown, and on top of that has to deal with a guy who has no fucking clue (bedside strip recalled). It's understandable, it's human behavior, and I think regardless of whether Marten was "in the right" or not, he will regret this for the rest of his life. Unless, of course, he changes his mind.
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Dr. ROFLPWN

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #408 on: 13 Jan 2012, 08:01 »

But I also think that if you really believe he wasn't trying to hurt her, that he wasn't trying to give her a taste of her own medicine, that you give him way too much credit and are fooling yourself for Marten's sake, just a little :P

People--even fictional QC people--are complicated and their motives are rarely pure.  I'm sure there was an element of "getting back at her" in Marten's behaviour.  But there are two important factors:  1) it really is her own behaviour he's putting back at her and 2) he has a right to protect himself emotionally.  

She has withdrawn from him.  She's gone from "I want to see more of you" to "I'm too busy right now to make time for you".  Fair enough:  she's not exactly been up-front about it, but she's young and confused.

For her to then turn around and say, "OK, having put you off and rebuffed your every approach for the last few days and given you time to experience emotional separation from me I now want to see you so you can go through the pain of separation again" is pretty second rate, and Marten has every right to say, "I've already done it once, I really don't feel like doing it again, thanks (you bitch)."  That terminal parenthetical is certainly there, and doesn't do Marten any credit, but it's not the whole story.

Having been on the receiving end of behaviour like Padma's (and who hasn't?  why do women DO that? Do they think we don't have any emotional reality of our own?  If you prick us do we not bleat?)  I've gotta say my sympathies are mostly on Marten's side here.


...

I don't want to pick on you, but this is another really stellar example of Bad Posting, and it hits almost all of the three axioms Mr. Hodges was saying to avoid on the last page.

1.) Blame culture.

It's pretty obvious from sentence one that you are assigning blame, and more expressly assigning blame to Padma. This is folly. Even more dishearteningly, you are advocating the stance that Marten has justification, is morally correct, in hurting her because of her bad behavior. This is not true and the thread has already been over why that is multiple times over.
Why is there a need to assign blame here? What does it solve? Why not say that this is the result of both their mistakes, which is precisely what it is? Padma acted badly, and so did Marten. I'll admit, I personally handed Marten the lion's share in previous posts, but that is mostly because as protagonist I hold him to a higher standard. The fact of the matter is they both made a mess of this, and in the end it doesn't even matter who finished things or who started them. Blame isn't going to help anyone.

2.) Projection.

You are also, pretty obviously, projecting like hell onto the characters; your exacting speculative outline of Padma's motives (which I must remind everyone we do not know about in detail, no one here does save Jeph) speaks volumes about that, and then in the last sentence you freely admit that you have been in Marten's position and it sucked and stuff.
Don't do this. I cannot stress this enough. Do not project, no matter how strong the urge. Every time you, or anyone else, project yourselves onto Marten, Jeph wants to delete the forum. It's toxic: it ties everything up in very personal, heavily charged feelings, and honestly 99.99% of the time it's inaccurate for the simple fact that you aren't Jeph, so you don't know the character's motives or thoughts!

3.) Bigotry.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you were not being sexist.

That said, it is...pretty insensitive to ask "why do women [play emotional games]?" One might ask in return, "why are men such inconsiderate pricks?"

What? They aren't, you say? That's a stereotype, you say? WELL maybe the same is true of women!

Also, gendered insults, like "bitch", used to demean, are not cool at all! Please try not to use them!


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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #409 on: 13 Jan 2012, 08:27 »

then it's clear the hard work of the mods must have paid off.

Suckup!  :-D

Anyway, I still contend that Marten just need a fucking hug. He felt rejected and acted childishly. Padma is losing part of her family, is moving away from friends and work and hometown, and on top of that has to deal with a guy who has no fucking clue (bedside strip recalled). It's understandable, it's human behavior, and I think regardless of whether Marten was "in the right" or not, he will regret this for the rest of his life. Unless, of course, he changes his mind.
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lepetitfromage

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #410 on: 13 Jan 2012, 08:41 »

So...did anyone else notice that Marten's mug says "#1 Grandpa"?  :-D



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NotsoAverageJoe

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #411 on: 13 Jan 2012, 08:59 »

I think even the noblest person on the planet would get just a wee bit tired of "being the bigger man" when he's the only one ever being said bigger man, and all it's ever done is blown up in his face.

Sometimes people just get fed up with their circumstances, regardless of fault.  


You (and several others!) are entirely missing my point.

Yes. Sure. He can be tired of it, because being virtuous is really inconvenient and a drag and hard to maintain, and I'm not just being sardonic; there is good reason 'virtue' is usually a divine quality. It's hard to keep turning the other cheek!

BUT

That doesn't mean it's right when you aren't virtuous! That just means it's understandable! I understand why Marten behaved badly; he had every reason. Padma behaved badly first, too! But the point is that none of that makes his behavior okay, he acted like a fucking jackass.

That he regrets it is good, because it was fucking wrong!

Quote
As for "sexism" being at work with those siding with Marten, that's just plain ridiculous.  Who does Marten interact with on a regular basis, and who is in most of his storylines?

1. Faye
2. Dora
3. Hannelore
4. Padma
5. Elliot
6. Steve

So of those six, I'd say only Faye, Dora, and Padma have been "instrumental" in his character development, being that his dating life is his central story.  Most people think Steve's a jerk, but he's in the comic so infrequently as to be not much of a factor.  Remember the Marten/Elliot drama a few weeks back?  The point is, when it comes to drama in the comic with Marten, it's the women who are there.  It's not sexist to put blame on a woman IF A WOMAN DESERVES BLAME.  Automatically absolving Faye/Dora/Padma is no better than automatically absolving Marten, is it?

You are showing a very poor understanding of sexism and how it works, and no one, least of all me, is auto-absolving anyone. Padma acted ridiculously badly and owed Marten an apology at the very least as one human being to another.

BUUUT

To say that it is all on her, and to extrapolate that it is something "women do" and to go on about how "women play games" or to call her a "bitch" is when we take a nice detour into open sexism and misogyny!

Also, some of you may not know this, but there is such a thing as male privilege! It's not really a cool thing and it's even less cool to enforce it!

if he had every reason to act the way he did, then what he did is not wrong.  if he had acted the way he did with no justification then i'd agree he was in the wrong.  but given the circumstances, there is no way i can see he was wrong.  he simply had several choices of how to respond, he picked one that some of us may not have.  that does not make him wrong, it just makes his decision making process different.

its not all on her, but does that mean she didn't deserve what he gave her in response to her initial treatment of him?  absolutely not.

i also don't think anyone is placing blame on padma because she is a she... i think they're placing blame on her because she was the initiator of all this.  she initiated the physical relationship, she was the one who cut off communication with him.  

interesting thought concerning the sexist thing by the way... do you realize how sexist it is to tell the man to "be the bigger man?"  the term itself is sexist!  when was the last time you heard someone say "be the bigger woman" in a situation that involves both genders?

men are always expected to turn the other cheek, to simply put up with anything a woman does, because after all, a man can take it, because we're big and strong and emotionally miniscule compared to women and blah blah blah... because a woman is ultimately ineffectual and nothing she does can cause lasting emotional harm... but if he retaliates, well, that's just unacceptable because he can actually hurt her emotionally.  never mind the whole added spice of being called a neanderthal for being a "man's man" who isn't in touch with his emotional side and doesn't show emotional vulnerability, while at the same time still being expected to put up with any emotional abuse a woman throws his way!  dam double standards.

this whole turn the other cheek philosophy only furthers the gender bias, but it does so by placing the majority of the burden on male shoulders.  all too often the woman in any given situation is not expected to have the endure the same kind of abuse and just put up with it.  that "privilege" is one that is almost exclusively male.

i would argue that, in the spirit of gender equality, marten's actions were not only justified, but right.  in that, for there to be true equality, both genders need to be treated with the same respect, but also be expected to hold the same responsibility towards each other that such respect inherently entails.  that means that padma's actions need to be viewed as being just as wrong as marten's, rather than dismissed as inconsequential in the bigger scheme, and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.

edit: i also love how there are all these accusations of sexism flying around, especially in relation to the term bitch, which is a rather nasty word... but at the same time insults towards men, such as bastard, have been stated to not be as hurtful.  maybe not, but as long as we hold the attitude that one is absolutely not ok, and the other is bad, but its more acceptable because its not as bad... then you're never going to reach equality.  all you'll end up doing is furthering the separation between the genders by creating double standards of treatment.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2012, 09:19 by NotsoAverageJoe »
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #412 on: 13 Jan 2012, 09:13 »

do you realize how sexist it is to tell the man to "be the bigger man?"  the term itself is sexist!  when was the last time you heard someone say "be the bigger woman" in a situation that involves both genders?

The way sexism is entrenched in language is a big part of why I wrote:
Most of society is deeply sexist to this day in spite of what changes have been made over the last century.

However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).

and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.

To the extent that retaliation is considered an appropriate response at all.  I would like to persuade people that it may not be.
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NotsoAverageJoe

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #413 on: 13 Jan 2012, 09:24 »

and as such his retaliation was a measured response that was completely appropriate.

To the extent that retaliation is considered an appropriate response at all.  I would like to persuade people that it may not be.

my world view is a bit more old school than is considered proper by many in this day and age.  i have little to no tolerance for poor behavior and am very much of the eye for an eye philosophy.  exhaust and all lesser means that are available and appropriate, but do not shirk from doing what needs to be done, when it needs to be done.

whats the cliche about what the father taught his son... "never start a fight, but always finish it."  yea, its generally the paradigm i fall back to in extremis.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #414 on: 13 Jan 2012, 09:31 »

Damn!  :oops:


But at what point do we decide that no metaphor is permissible...?
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TinPenguin

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #415 on: 13 Jan 2012, 09:33 »

However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).
Ah, ah, ah! As a society, we should eliminate the need to codify the "bigger people" of the world as the "better" ones.

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« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2012, 09:45 by TinPenguin »
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vsonics

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #416 on: 13 Jan 2012, 09:46 »

Have those sticky notes been on the fridge before?
The last place I could find the kitchen with a quick click through only had a side view of the refrigerator.

Also, woah, has anyone noticed before the fridge has a D but refrigerator doesn't?

Anyway, I like the sticky notes and I wish I could make out the writing on them.
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TinPenguin

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #417 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:08 »

Have those sticky notes been on the fridge before?
The last place I could find the kitchen with a quick click through only had a side view of the refrigerator.

Also, woah, has anyone noticed before the fridge has a D but refrigerator doesn't?

Anyway, I like the sticky notes and I wish I could make out the writing on them.

Yup, they've been there before. The one with writing says "Faye, stop wasting post-its"

Refrigerator doesn't have a D because it is latinate, but when people came to spell the shortened form, they took guidance from more English/Germanic words like hedge and wedge.
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Tormuse

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #418 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:17 »

I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:

Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
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quix0te

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #419 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:45 »

I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:

Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"
I think thats a valid point and a good values clarification.  I don't think he's an asshole at all. I think he didn't do anything wrong.  I'm not sure what the sturm and drang is about.  If its because he 'lied', I would argue its less hurtful than having their last conversation be acrimonious.  If this were a relationship in progress then I would be in favor of working through the issues. But EVERY INDICATOR points to the relationship being de facto over.  As far as he knows, Padma is moving away and for whatever reason didn't want to spend the last week with him.
I think its actually probably the most healthy response to the hand he was dealt. I would be curious what would have been 'better'.  'I don't know why you didn't want to spend time with me but I still care about you?'.  Pathetic. 
'I dont understand you didn't want to spend time with me but I'd like to end on a positive note.  I enjoyed the time we spent together?'  Probably a better outcome, but really, I'd say its at least as dishonest as just telling her he was busy.  He's hurt and angry and he has good reason.
Padma had ended the relationship, marten was just acknowledging this.
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ilikefishfood

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #420 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:48 »

I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:

Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"

I think that would have been the best thing for him to have done.  It might have pushed her to have been more honest with him about why she disappeared and then decided to leave early.  Oh well...'tis done!  Forward on~
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #421 on: 13 Jan 2012, 10:57 »

I don't think he's an asshole. I think there is NO reason he should chase after her. She decided to dog him all week. Move on. Life's too short to deal with people who don't have their shit together and/or treat you like crap. I think if it was a girl in Martin's place people would look at this differently. Guy sleeps with a girl, doesn't call her, puts her off when she calls him, and just before he's going to leave town calls her up, possibly for a little action before he leaves town for good? Yeah, no one would call her a bitch for telling that guy "No thanks."  And if there was a good reason she's dogged him and left early? Then she should have TOLD HIM. Again, life is too short to deal with that crap. I don't care if you don't have the emotional maturity to speak up with the truth, the fact is, no good relationship can live without truth. The onus is not on Martin here as far as I can see. He kept calling her, she kept being evasive. No matter what the reason, unless she fesses up, he has no responsibility to be a door mat.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #422 on: 13 Jan 2012, 11:27 »

Marten's not an asshole, at least to the extent that children are not assholes when they pull this shit. Petty, childish, and irrational I'll grant you, but he's no Black Hat Guy, much less a Mike.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #423 on: 13 Jan 2012, 11:29 »

If QC was a TV show he'd chase after her. Marten would chase her to the airport, there would be tears, and moving speeches. I like to think Jeph will do something a little more creative than that.

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #424 on: 13 Jan 2012, 12:05 »

It's really all about a lack of communication- had there been more of it, it's fairly safe to surmise that we wouldn't all be having this debate. And the comic would end up being pretty boring.


As I stated before.....neither of them owes the other one anything. They both acted in ways that were not conducive to starting a relationship (and rightfully so- because Padma was leaving no matter what). If there was a chance that she would stay, it might have ended differently and they may have given each other a little more respect. I think a lot of people are getting worked up about it because Padma was finally starting to feel like a regular to us, but the truth is that she and Marten had very little interaction before they slept together. If we didn't know Padma previously from tSB this would have been nothing but a glorified one (ok, two) night stand. They probably don't even know each others last names!
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #425 on: 13 Jan 2012, 12:48 »

Lack of communication also causes LOT of unneeded drama. Especially when people jump to conclusions by taking the meaning of a statement out of context.

Sometimes I suspect people of damn near doing it on purpose, which probably does not help my growing misanthropy* as I age. I'd gladly put up with a less interesting life.

*In context it means I am referring to people of all genders, races, creeds, religions, disabilities, and fetishes. You can stop fondling your righteous indignation now.

I have a question for people calling Marten an asshole:

Would he still be an asshole if he had been honest and told Padma, "I don't want to see you because I resent the fact that you waited until the last minute to call me?"

I think that would have been the best thing for him to have done.  It might have pushed her to have been more honest with him about why she disappeared and then decided to leave early.  Oh well...'tis done!  Forward on~

Yeah, being upfront and honest when done right is usually the best thing. An added benefit is you don't hand the less ethical people a reason to blame you for being upset that they mistreated you.

Yes, I have had people try that crap on me.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2012, 12:56 by Overkillengine »
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #426 on: 13 Jan 2012, 12:54 »

Perhaps we can make allowances, when second-guessing the characters, for the fact that they have limited relationship experience. Even expanding it to secondary characters, the only long term success I can think of is the Bianchi parents.

Looking at it from Marten's point of view, a plausible interpretation of what Padma was doing is that she was communicating "You're not worth talking to on the phone or returning messages, but I'll use you as a booty call". There's a good chance that isn't what she meant at all, but refusing to be used like that is a perfectly respectable response.

Out of curiosity, what would people have thought if Marten had left a message to Padma saying "I understand what you're telling me, and I won't call again. I enjoyed our time together, and wish you all the best."?
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #427 on: 13 Jan 2012, 12:59 »

Wow!  Four pages since I last Posted - And talk about analysis.

Heh


Still, I suppose we all have our pinch points 

'Wait! What?!?  Chuckles the Wooden?  What the hell?! CHUCKLES THE WOODEN???!!!!!!  Gaaaah!!!!!'






Heh, leave it to Faye to distill it down to something so basic.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #428 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:00 »

I'm not sure if someone's already mentioned this but:

MOVING SUCKS.

I just moved across the country (Massachusetts to Hawaii) and the last week I was in town, I broke a lot of plans, and basically only saw people if they specifically came over (generally uninvited) to help me pack. Like, I don't think Padme blew Marten off for no reason -- I think when you're trying to move your whole life on fairly short notice (in my case, my husband got restationed, and in hers her g'ma is ill) that sometimes you have to be selfish with your time.

This doesn't mean Marten's totally in the wrong -- I get that his feelings are hurt, and that when you flake there's consequences -- but I'm just really surprised at how many people in the forum are all, "oh she blew him off" when she's moving herself across the country.  
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #429 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:14 »


That said, it is...pretty insensitive to ask "why do women [play emotional games]?" One might ask in return, "why are men such inconsiderate pricks?"


If more than one woman does it, then "women" is an appropriate term. On the other hand, saying "women" to mean "women as a class" is a step on the road to stereotyping, because women are a pretty diverse bunch of people.

On another subject, no amount of moderation could make a good forum out of bad people. The forum works because of people who make good posts, which then attract more of the same. All moderators can do is keep toxic ingredients out of the soup.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #430 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:19 »

The sexism conversation continues! Frankly, calling out sexism is as much an accusation as is calling out the naturalistic fallacy. The difference between sexism and other fallacies in these modern-day coversations is that it is a social faux pas, the fart among liberals. But saying something sexist doesn't inherently make someone a bad person. They're probs a good person - who said something sexist, and also once got a math problem wrong. The "accusations" of sexism are pointing out minor possible gender biases, which needs to be discussed, not hushed, because sexism is a big issue.

As for flipping the genders, I'd be careful to take into account gender norms and what happens to people when they deviate from them i.e. when a man has feelings, or when a woman doesn't. If a man did what Padma did to Marten, I speculate he would be considered an asshole (not a bitch) and the condemnation would revolve around how "clueless" and "sex-hungry" men are, not how manipulative. (The male stereotypes are still awful and untrue.) A gender-neutral condemnation would be that she didn't take into account his feelings, and failed to communicate. Do we know anything besides that?

Also: I remember someone asked Jeph how he writes women characters so well. He responded that he just writes them as people.

Also also: I really hope I didn't drag this issue out further. Like, I just don't think having the sexism conversation is that bad. And if people disagree on whether something is sexist - GOOD! I just hope they do it with knowledge, as people have managed earlier in the thread.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #431 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:22 »

All moderators can do is keep toxic ingredients out of the soup.

I really enjoy the way you put this.  :-) Good job monitoring the soup!
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #432 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:30 »

I'm not sure if someone's already mentioned this but:

MOVING SUCKS.

I just moved across the country (Massachusetts to Hawaii) and the last week I was in town, I broke a lot of plans, and basically only saw people if they specifically came over (generally uninvited) to help me pack. Like, I don't think Padme blew Marten off for no reason -- I think when you're trying to move your whole life on fairly short notice (in my case, my husband got restationed, and in hers her g'ma is ill) that sometimes you have to be selfish with your time.

This doesn't mean Marten's totally in the wrong -- I get that his feelings are hurt, and that when you flake there's consequences -- but I'm just really surprised at how many people in the forum are all, "oh she blew him off" when she's moving herself across the country.  

I understand where you're coming from, and Padma certainly is going through a big move and also seems to be wading through some deep emotional confusion as well, but even if the only reason she hadn't called was because she really was busy all week packing I don't think that this entirely excuses her in this case.

Remember, as far as Marten knew at the time Padma WASN'T moving. She'd put it off for a week, presumably just to spend a little bit more time with him. I think that part of the anger that had Marten blowing Padma off was rooted in his surprise that she was leaving the next day - last he'd heard they had another week. She didn't call him to let him know that she'd changed the date she was leaving again until the night before and suddenly there was no more time.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #433 on: 13 Jan 2012, 13:58 »

(We were doing so well, too.  Anyway.)

Padma didn't have an obligation to hang out with Marten all week, even if she caused him to think that she would.
1. They haven't had a "relationship talk."
2. In fact, she told him this was a short-term deal, and hasn't hinted at otherwise.
3. Her staying is at her own expense, making it a large opportunity cost.
4. He's not a particularly busy man, so he has no opportunity cost for waiting on her to call the shots.

She also wasn't obligated to tell him why she had changed her mind.
5. And he didn't ask.
6. It is his obligation to ask for things he wants.
7. He didn't tell her that he needed time with her or he would move on.  He left the ball entirely in her court.

Assuming Padma wasn't playing games--she really doesn't seem the type of person, more likely she was in combined panic/denial--I think her actions are okay, if not great.  She could be more forthcoming, which would sustain the friendship or grow the relationship, but she's never promised anything.  And why are we assuming she was making a booty call, not an "I just want to hang out on a park bench with you for an hour" call?  The latter's been more common for me upon people important to me leaving.

In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again.  He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted.  (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)

But he was probably just trying to protect himself.

It's just too bad he's the kind of person who needs to.  Not that it doesn't put him in the majority.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #434 on: 13 Jan 2012, 14:06 »

I didn't really get the impression Padma was playing games or blowing him off. It seemed to me like what was happening was she was developing real relationshippy feelings for Martin, but given the timing, didn't know what to do with that. And since they were at the slept-together-but-haven't-been-together-long-enough point in their relationship to talk about love and whatnot (they were both employing the face-saving mechanisms of being careful not to confess too much too soon), I imagine she might have felt stuck and unable to decide what to do. That's the impression I got from the look on her face in the last panel they were together, to the hesitant conversation on the phone. She handled it badly, but I don't think it was malicious, and who really knows what she might have suggested (long distance relationship? A move back in 6 months? Maybe neither?) if Martin had gone over there to find out what was up rather than let his temper and pride decide things.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #435 on: 13 Jan 2012, 14:24 »

Quote from: Michael Jackson
Damned Indecision And Cursed Pride
Kept My Love For Her Locked Deep Inside
And It Cuts Like A Knife
She's Out Of My Life

I wonder if Jeph's going to leave this a mystery, as it is to Marten right now? Padma's never been a viewpoint character, so we may never know what was going on with her.

She had no way to know that she was reminding him of Vicki.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #436 on: 13 Jan 2012, 15:12 »

Forumite judgments aside, I think story wise Marten's in for some judgmentalism from the other characters, with Elliott making the opening statement and Faye providing exhibit 1. We've seen Dora prepping Exhibit 2. None of them will be 100 percent right or wrong -- though Elliott came damn close with his "expect better" moment.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #437 on: 13 Jan 2012, 15:33 »

So, Moving on from the straight up Padma/Marten topic slightly here, who else feels Faye's reaction was pretty lame?

I was slightly puzzled by Marten's line about being an asshole until I really thought about how accusatory Faye's "Why in the hell did you do that?!" must have been.

But even his later "aren't you going to disagree-" shows what he's really asking for is help - he wants someone to tell him that his actions were justified, or even just to tell him to explain it all so they know what's going on.

But instead Faye jumps in, agreeing with his self-deprecating (sarcastic?) comment - she's not being thoughtful or trying to understand, she's judged him entirely on Marten's: "Apparently not, she called last night and wanted to see me, but I told her I was busy."

Pretty poor performance for such a close friend, I feel.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #438 on: 13 Jan 2012, 15:38 »

She also wasn't obligated to tell him why she had changed her mind.
5. And he didn't ask.
6. It is his obligation to ask for things he wants.
7. He didn't tell her that he needed time with her or he would move on.  He left the ball entirely in her court.

Assuming Padma wasn't playing games--she really doesn't seem the type of person, more likely she was in combined panic/denial--I think her actions are okay, if not great.  She could be more forthcoming, which would sustain the friendship or grow the relationship, but she's never promised anything.  And why are we assuming she was making a booty call, not an "I just want to hang out on a park bench with you for an hour" call?  The latter's been more common for me upon people important to me leaving.

In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again.  He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted.  (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)

But he was probably just trying to protect himself.

It's just too bad he's the kind of person who needs to.  Not that it doesn't put him in the majority.
When would he have asked?  All the numerous phone calls she picked up?  The dates that she kept?  What would he have asked?  "Hey, you haven't by any chance changed your plans dramatically without finding it convenient to tell me, have you?"  There were feelings involved here.  Even if this was just a temporary thing, I don't think that mutual respect is too much to hope for, and she doesn't really show much of it when she dramatically changes her plans, as they affect him, arguably because of him, and not tell him until she delivers an ultimatum with a nice serving of emotional blackmail: "see me for the last time now or never again."  She doesn't have an obligation, maybe, but she doesn't have the common decency either.  Marten blew off Padma because she'd already blew him off for an entire week, and had now moved her plans up like this, and he was angry about it.  Did she have a moral obligation to not do those things?  Maybe not.  But does it show any respect or consideration for Marten?  Nope.

So, Moving on from the straight up Padma/Marten topic slightly here, who else feels Faye's reaction was pretty lame?

I was slightly puzzled by Marten's line about being an asshole until I really thought about how accusatory Faye's "Why in the hell did you do that?!" must have been.

But even his later "aren't you going to disagree-" shows what he's really asking for is help - he wants someone to tell him that his actions were justified, or even just to tell him to explain it all so they know what's going on.

But instead Faye jumps in, agreeing with his self-deprecating (sarcastic?) comment - she's not being thoughtful or trying to understand, she's judged him entirely on Marten's: "Apparently not, she called last night and wanted to see me, but I told her I was busy."

Pretty poor performance for such a close friend, I feel.
Maybe she really liked Padma and hadn't totally taken in to account how Padma had made Marten feel.  I don't know.  It's hard to understand, I agree.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2012, 16:03 by truestatic »
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #439 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:06 »

I admit I haven't read the whole thread but I'd just like to comment on Faye's reaction. The way things have been presented to her she might be misunderstanding the chain of events. We know that the chain went "Marten tries to contact her but doesn't want to be too pushy about it (not going to see her at the bakery), Padma calls him up and tells him that she is leaving the next day (no apology for blowing him off, springing the sudden departure on him, or reason for leaving (i assume that this week her Grandma had a turn for the worse and she just sort of shut down)), then he tells her he is busy like a passive aggressive asshole. The way it has been presented to Faye goes more "Marten tries to contact her but is too passive aggressive about it (I do think going to the bakery at least ONCE during the week was called for at least to see if everything was ok with her like a boyfriend might), Marten told her that he was busy like an asshole, Padma leaves the next day (probably because of his passive aggressive stance that week and feeling hurt when she calls 'finally' and he rudely blows her off). Faye's probably going to calm down when she realizes that Padma has kept him in the dark the entire week which is avoiding him and avoiding the inevitable confrontation of her leaving that week and although still disapproving of what he did and chiding him for it warming up a little. I honestly hope that Padma's character isn't the kind of person who would start sleeping with a guy regularly and not keep him informed about leaving as though he wouldn't be affected on an emotional level. We know that Marten has been hurt. We know that if he had gone to the bakery the next day and been told by Elliot or anyone else that Padma had already left that he would be devastated. I don't think that she was afraid of her feelings so much as she realized that she liked Marten a little too much to just up and leave and completely shatter his heart. It kind of makes what she did worse. I don't like or respect you enough to be honest with you about me leaving this week but hey, why don't I come by and give you a roll in the hay before you drive me to the airport (probably not the actual way she traveled but the offer seems like a laughable exaggeration of how this fictional Padma would act).

Don't absolve either of them and don't put all of the blame on one. Marten should have stopped by the bakery he had frequented prior to their hookup at least once that week but Padma should have called him at least twice before her offer of a last hookup. I think we can all agree on one thing though and this is the important part. Next time Marten see Elliot that high five s going to hurt. A lot. possibly even break his nose.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #440 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:07 »

It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying - judging by the walls of text that continue to appear, and the listings of who blew off whom and when and who was playing what game and what everyone's obligations were.

* Or blame.  Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #441 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:38 »

* Or blame.  Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.
It's no fun unless we can make someone in to a pariah :D

In truth, I'm considering everyone's scenarios, and they're all very interesting, but I'm not going to take them as... sufficient explanation to excuse anyone.  I mean, in the end, a lot of them end up feeling a bit contrived to me, and are so for the soul purpose of excusing the actions of the people that we otherwise can't really attribute to anything else.  If I'm going to make assumptions, I'd rather just make the simplest ones.  I think this is a perfect application of Occam's Razor, though I can be kind of a dumbass so it might not be an appropriate application of it.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #442 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:42 »

In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again.  He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted.  (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)
You have a much lower threshold for 'asshole' than I (and I think most people) do.  
He certainly went further for the friendship' than she did.
He answered the phone when she called.

I had the same question Milesb did.  Why did FAYE say he was an asshole?  Albeit, I think we've established Faye has a ...skewed... lens of appropriate behavior.
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Re: Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #443 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:47 »

However, I would not find it strange to hear: "be the bigger person", and would attempt to make my mind produce that version (though I can't guarantee I'd manage it every time, not least because my ageing brain doesn't learn new habits as reliably as it used to).
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #444 on: 13 Jan 2012, 16:52 »

Quote from: Michael Jackson
Damned Indecision And Cursed Pride
Kept My Love For Her Locked Deep Inside
And It Cuts Like A Knife
She's Out Of My Life

I wonder if Jeph's going to leave this a mystery, as it is to Marten right now? Padma's never been a viewpoint character, so we may never know what was going on with her.

She had no way to know that she was reminding him of Vicki.

Well, we don't know why Faye's dad killed himself. Or what Vicki really thought of Marten. So I'm suspecting we've heard the last of Padma (sadly).
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #445 on: 13 Jan 2012, 17:06 »

For what it's worth...

After reflection I feel Martin did the right thing. 

A possible motivation... not wanting to repeat the Viki thing.   Also,  he's coming to grips with how to be more assertive.   As he stretches his assertiveness-wings he may knock over a few lamps... stumble a few times... but in the end as he develops his ability to assert himself he will become a better person.

This is one such stumble.   

If Dora and Faye are really his friends, and I think they are... they will of course offer opinions on what just transpired then life will move on.



Of course what the %&* do I know...   Jeph could be planning to kill Dora and Faye in a HORRIBLE PLANE CRASH next week then introducing the staff of SuperPizza!(TM).     :-D
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #446 on: 13 Jan 2012, 17:08 »

It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying

Correct.

When would he have asked?  All the numerous phone calls she picked up?

They talked at least three times when she was first blowing him off.  I sincerely doubt that in those messages he left he actually asked for an explanation. 

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What would he have asked?

"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"

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She doesn't have an obligation, maybe, but she doesn't have the common decency either.

She is Padma.  He knew that.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #447 on: 13 Jan 2012, 17:30 »

She is Padma.  He knew that.
Being a shitty person doesn't excuse shitty behavious.   :laugh:

One thing I've been considering though is that Marten didn't really ever let on the way he felt about her.  He's been conditioned by all his previous relationships, and in his advice from his friends, to be cool, to be a little withdrawn, to just enjoy the moment and not worry too much about the future, and as a result... whenever they're together, he doesn't really let on just how in to her he was.  Like, the time when he was determined to just "Play this friend style" (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2073).  Or the time she suggested she might be hanging around (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2075).  He's just sort of been lukewarm.  And he's been lukewarm in an attempt to not fuck things up, but it looks like he's just managed to fuck things up in the process.  The road to hell, best intentions, etc.  On reflection, I think she might have conducted herself differently if he had let her know how he was feeling, but he, like her I suspect, avoided doing so in an attempt to spare eachother their feelings.  Looks like they would've just been better off falling for each other and then having nice memories than conducting this charade of self discipline.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #448 on: 13 Jan 2012, 17:34 »

"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"

I used bad examples.  It wouldn't have to be much more than: "Is something wrong?" "Are you all right?" "Can I come over?"  Instead of "hey just wanted to see if you're busy" "wanna hang out?" kind of deal I imagine.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #449 on: 13 Jan 2012, 17:40 »

"Are you avoiding me now for some reason?" "Did I do something wrong?"

I used bad examples.  It wouldn't have to be much more than: "Is something wrong?" "Are you all right?" "Can I come over?"  Instead of "hey just wanted to see if you're busy" "wanna hang out?" kind of deal I imagine.
Totally.  Way too lukewarm.  :\  He just wanted to avoid appearing overeager though, I guess.  Or pressuring her.  Which I get.  I'm usually of the opinion that it's best not to pry, and that the people I care about know that I'm there to talk when/if they need to, but I guess Marten and Padma never really had an opportunity to have a conversation that serious.
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