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What will Marten do?

Call back right away and apologize.
Run to her apartment and apologize.
Wait until tomorrow, and get arrested at the airport trying to apologize at the gate.
Call/go over and ask for an explanation.
Decide it's a lost cause, toast a waffle or two, and try to move on.

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Author Topic: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)  (Read 135813 times)

CrowFairy

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #450 on: 13 Jan 2012, 18:34 »

Something I've noticed no one has mentioned yet: What if there was a conversation that occurred off-panel between the two strips? If I remember correctly, there was a conversation during the break-up with Dora that wasn't shown, but Marten mentioned it out loud in a conversation. So who's to say he didn't call her back or go to her house or go to the bakery and simply hasn't had the chance to mention that part yet? Good story-telling sometimes means that crucial information is left out so we'll make the wrong assumptions and have to re-read when we find out the truth of the matter. :-D

It's going to be long weekend on here, isn't it?
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FrozenPeas

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #451 on: 13 Jan 2012, 19:12 »

if he had every reason to act the way he did, then what he did is not wrong.  if he had acted the way he did with no justification then i'd agree he was in the wrong.

I tend not to lend credence to simple axioms, but one of the few that I do is that, if you need to justify your behaviour, you probably shouldn't have been behaving that way in the first place. Justfication is always a mistake (and the source of all moral decay) because, frankly, you can justify just about anything (cf. the legal and political systems in every country on the planet)--and once you start doing that, all your destructive behaviours become the fault of other people; you're just the poor little victim who was defending himself or herself.

To relate it to the immediate situation: Marten behaved badly. End of story. Padma doesn't figure into the situation at all. He had a chance to act like an adult and go after what he wanted--whether that's a booty call, a relationship, or, most of all, an explanation for the weeklong absence--and he instead chose throw that opportunity away in order to deliberately hurt someone who, while possibly thoughtless, is his friend.

That's the whole story, right there. Getting into "but she did this and that and the other thing" and all that is just victimhood talk that, eventually, leaves you completely alone because no one wants to put up with the dick who blames his bad behaviour on everyone else. 

Now, to make sure I'm clear, I'm not saying Padma's behaviour doesn't matter at all--I'm saying it doesn't matter in our evaluation of Marten's behaviour. Padma, so far as our current level of awareness regarding her situation allows us to say, also behaved badly (unless she really was just desperately packing. I once spent 72 straight hours packing just to get done by the time the movers showed up, so I can buy that)--but she eventually did the right thing, confronted her fears, and called him. She made a choice that, although it was unsuccessful and caused her pain, was the better thing for her to do. She can walk away knowing that, even if she screwed up, she tried to make it better. That doesn't justify it (or else I'd be a flaming hypocrite), but it does ameliorate it.



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FrozenPeas

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #452 on: 13 Jan 2012, 19:20 »

Sigh. Had a sudden semi-related thought while writing that last post. I beg your pardon for making two posts in a row.

Taking this phase of the storyline as a whole to this point, the arc really starts with Padma and Marten in bed, with Marten proclaiming that he used to be much whinier and that he's calmed down quite a bit. Everything since then has been proving that Marten, like many people, is only calm so long as things are going his way.

There's a special subset of people (and I happen to be a recovering member) who, when all the stars align and their lives start going smoothly, interpret it as personal growth. Then, when they hit an obstacle, everything falls apart because they haven't actually grown or learned to deal with their problems--suddenly all their problems in life are the result of that one obstacle and, if only that person hadn't told her that her new haircut didn't look good (I once spent three hours talking someone down from a major life crisis brought on by that exact comment from one of her friends), then everything would have been fine.

In other words, if they didn't have problems, they wouldn't have problems (which I believe was first published in the popular psychology journal, Duh Magazine). In a way, it actually ties into the victimhood theme I was looking at in my previous post.

If the storyline continues to play out as it has thus far, then this arc is about Marten learning that he's given himself too much credit--which is, frankly, the only way to remove that particular obstacle to real personal growth (and I'm betting Faye and Dora aren't going to let him miss seeing it).
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Tova

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #453 on: 13 Jan 2012, 20:42 »

I tend not to lend credence to simple axioms, but one of the few that I do is that, if you need to justify your behaviour, you probably shouldn't have been behaving that way in the first place. Justfication is always a mistake (and the source of all moral decay) because, frankly, you can justify just about anything (cf. the legal and political systems in every country on the planet)--and once you start doing that, all your destructive behaviours become the fault of other people; you're just the poor little victim who was defending himself or herself.

To relate it to the immediate situation: Marten behaved badly. End of story. Padma doesn't figure into the situation at all. He had a chance to act like an adult and go after what he wanted--whether that's a booty call, a relationship, or, most of all, an explanation for the weeklong absence--and he instead chose throw that opportunity away in order to deliberately hurt someone who, while possibly thoughtless, is his friend.

That's the whole story, right there. Getting into "but she did this and that and the other thing" and all that is just victimhood talk that, eventually, leaves you completely alone because no one wants to put up with the dick who blames his bad behaviour on everyone else. 

Spot on.
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jurialmunkey

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #454 on: 13 Jan 2012, 20:53 »

There's a special subset of people (and I happen to be a recovering member) who, when all the stars align and their lives start going smoothly, interpret it as personal growth. Then, when they hit an obstacle, everything falls apart because they haven't actually grown or learned to deal with their problems
^^^ THIS
Totally agree. Marten thought he was growing because things were working out for him. Really he was just doing the opposite of what he did in the Vicki situation, instead of acting as the situation needed.  The problem was that Marten was trying to act cool and be rational, yet at the last minute he didn't follow through and instead got emotional.

Situations such as these have this push-pull between emotional/intuitive "go with your gut" and a rationalising "don't repeat the same mistakes". It all gets jumbled up and then when the outcome isn't what we wanted we think "oh I should (have / have not) gone with my intuition". Its when you try to do both and end up doing neither. Rationality is counter productive to emotion/intuition as emotion/intuition is to rationality. He should have stuck to his guns, but at the last minute he betrayed all the "growth" that he had made.


One thing I've been considering though is that Marten didn't really ever let on the way he felt about her.  He's been conditioned by all his previous relationships, and in his advice from his friends, to be cool, to be a little withdrawn, to just enjoy the moment and not worry too much about the future, and as a result... whenever they're together, he doesn't really let on just how in to her he was. ...  On reflection, I think she might have conducted herself differently if he had let her know how he was feeling, but he, like her I suspect, avoided doing so in an attempt to spare each other their feelings.
^ This.

Also this: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2024
Apply what Elliot says in Panel 3 to Marten. Suddenly Marten has this "big unrealistic fantasy that she'll realise she loves [Marten] and will decide to stay".

Also this: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2033
Marten told Elliot to tell Padma that he was in love with her. Marten is being extremely contradictory in his actions (not that I would expect otherwise, just that he is sending very mixed messages). As far as Padma is aware, if he had feelings for her he should have just come out and said it like the advice he gave to Elliot. He didn't say anything so all Padma can assume from his actions that he thinks its just a bit of fun. She prompted him a few different times and he didn't react so she stuck around for a bit, then when it came close to the time she had to leave she distanced herself from him because he wasn't acting like it was going to affect him. My impression is that she did stick around the extra week or so, then when it was getting close to leaving she started freaking out and had to distance herself. Perhaps she didn't handle the situation in the best possible way, but as far as she knew, she was just a fling to him so she had a lot more to lose from becoming more involved.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #455 on: 13 Jan 2012, 21:16 »

Regardless of what happened, I'm hoping that if Marten's behavior is discussed among the characters that we we see the same "grayness" to what he did being right or wrong as has apparently been represented in the forum. It would be uncharacteristically wise, if not hypocritical, if everyone in the cast saw Marten's behavior as wrong. Considering the difference in personalities and the experiences of everyone, there should be those who understand why Marten behaved like he did while not agreeing with said behavior. The same way it is in the forum.

Everyone in agreement would be boring and too simple.
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sitnspin

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #456 on: 13 Jan 2012, 21:24 »

Why are people acting like Padma treated Marten badly? Or "used" him? She behaved in a way consistent with the parameters established at the beginning of their involvement. They were not dating, they were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were two adults who decided to hook up temporarily. There was no emotional obligation. "OMG, she wanted a booty call after not talking for a week!"  The whole relationship has been one long booty call. That was the point.

Both misread the others intentions. In his attempt to play it cool, he came off as NOT wanting anything more, so she assumed it wasn't. I can not see how she can be faulted for that. It struck me that she was starting to feel something for him, but if she believed he didn't feel the same way, avoiding him and moving the departure date back up is a perfectly reasonable response. Should she have been more straightforward with her feelings? Possibly, but we have the advantage of knowing Marten for years, she does not. She read his behavior at face value.

I wouldn't go so far as to say his final response was asshole-ish, but it was childish and petty. I can't say I entirely blame him for it, it was a very human response, but understanding it doesn't make it any less passive-aggressive and immature.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #457 on: 13 Jan 2012, 22:16 »

The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.
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Overkillengine

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #458 on: 13 Jan 2012, 22:41 »

They're pretty much both at fault for how this turned out.

Marten wanted more going in but didn't say it openly.
Padma ended up wanting more but didn't say it openly.


It all comes down to a simple principle; be clear about what you want or don't be surprised if you don't get it.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #459 on: 13 Jan 2012, 22:47 »

I wonder what Hannelore will say? She has proven remarkably insightful in the past, and paradoxically the voice of reason.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #460 on: 13 Jan 2012, 23:33 »

For what it's worth...

After reflection I feel Martin did the right thing. 

He's right, for the wrong reasons.
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Tormuse

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #461 on: 14 Jan 2012, 01:49 »

It seems my simple three-line scenario that seems to me to explain everything just didn't have enough words* to be satisfying - judging by the walls of text that continue to appear, and the listings of who blew off whom and when and who was playing what game and what everyone's obligations were.

* Or blame.  Clearly I didn't assign enough blame to be acceptable.

There are quite a few people here who would also like to be the "voice of reason" here.  I'd say yours just got lost in the shuffle.  :)  (Besides, everyone wants to get their viewpoints in because complaining is therapeutic!)   :lol:

2. In fact, she told him this was a short-term deal, and hasn't hinted at otherwise.

Did she ever actually say that?  I don't think they ever did have such a conversation.  I got the impression that they've just been doing this stuff together without actually discussing the implications of it.  And the fact that she decided to stay longer seemed to imply that she was considering a long-term deal with Marten.  (or at least, that's how Marten seemed to interpret it)

In contrast, Marten blew off Padma when he had nothing better to do--and he didn't--and may never see her again.  He acted like an asshole towards someone who should have been a friend first, because he didn't get what he wanted.  (I understand that he didn't consider her a friend first, and I find that sad.)

I think I have a different definition of the word "asshole" than you do.  To me, the word implies malicious intent and/or carelessly hurting someone for no reason.  I didn't get the impression that Marten did what he did to be malicious toward Padma or that he didn't give any thought about her feelings, more that he felt that she was leading him on and hurting him and he was trying to stop her from hurting him further.  Obviously, he didn't handle it as well as he could have, but the "asshole" label doesn't really apply unless you have a different definition for the word.
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DannicaJ

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #462 on: 14 Jan 2012, 04:56 »

I think I have a different definition of the word "asshole" than you do.  To me, the word implies malicious intent and/or carelessly hurting someone for no reason.  I didn't get the impression that Marten did what he did to be malicious toward Padma or that he didn't give any thought about her feelings, more that he felt that she was leading him on and hurting him and he was trying to stop her from hurting him further.  Obviously, he didn't handle it as well as he could have, but the "asshole" label doesn't really apply unless you have a different definition for the word.
From Padma's perspective:

She knows the break-up is coming and it will suck. She doesn't know if Marten can make it better (this is supported by the remark in bed the last time they met). She might want him to prove to her that he can make her feel better. To come over without her asking. To prove he is as emotionally invested as she is. To make something better. But he doesn't. She does not see that she is being just as childish as he is. She just wants it to suck less. She wants to see that she's not just a stupid girl falling in love with the wrong guy. Who knows? Maybe she just panicked.

As the time winds down, she understands that he isn't going to come. She decides, against her earlier judgement, that she likes him enough to see him one last time. Despite not immediately agreeing with her that they should have been together longer, she thinks he deserves it. That they could have one romantic night, and leave on a good note. And then he blows her off, without giving a reason less nebulous that "I'm busy". Leaving her alone, not sure if he really cares, not sure if her worst fears are true or not. In that last act, he didn't behave like a boyfriend. He acted like a self-centered asshole.

This is just one possible scenario. It's doing the exact same thing as Marten did only earlier, because he triggered it with a stupid remark he didn't think about. Did Marten consider this? Not according to his conversations with the rest of the cast. He doesn't even understand his own reaction. It's a knee-jerk reply, which he can't rationally explain. So according to your definition, he carelessly hurt Padma for no reason. And is an asshole.

No one is saying Marten is a scumbag, looking to hurt Padma (well, a few are). Everyone should know he's too passive to do that. He felt unwanted when she didn't want to be with him, and that sucks. Thinking about her hurt him, so after a week of getting pushed away and trying to not think about her, he just acted on instinct. But he obviously didn't consider the fact that Padma could be just as hurt as he was.

That being said, it is kind of about time. He's been trying to please everyone since the comic began, and this is the first time he didn't (even when he broke up with Dora, he did it because she left him no option to make things better). He did it clumsily, and mishandled it terribly. But it's a step on the right path. He did something (without understanding why) because HE WANTED TO DO IT. Good for him. People shouldn't be nice all the time. That world would be hypocritical and disgusting.

I'm still wondering why Faye's blatant disregard for Marten's feelings when he's been on edge for so long isn't getting more attention though.
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blacksinow

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #463 on: 14 Jan 2012, 05:05 »

I'm going to say some things that were likely discussed previously, so bare with me, okay? I think Martin is worried about being hurt, and he had just gotten out of a relationship that had almost devastated him. I think what SHOULD have happened, is the interference from his friends. Sometimes, you CANNOT let people who are passive aggressive make these kinds of decisions final. Sometimes, you have to do it for them, I know because I'm also very passive aggressive. If Faye had went over there, instead of expecting Martin to do the right thing, and talk with Padma herself, I think things may have been better. It is further likely that he had seen the signs of the relationship prematurely ending before they had left, or had interpreted them as such.

I know some are going to think this makes little sense, but in the end, Faye, Padma, Martin, they were all responsible for what had happened. Padma may have wanted Martin to go to her, but she made it worse by pouring gasoline on the fire and avoiding him by using shitty excuses. It is Martin's fault for not saying anything, hell, it would've been better if he had asked for Faye's help. And it is Faye's help for realizing that he really needed someone to drag him over there. Good friends do that, even if they know you aren't going to like it at first.

I can't believe anyone had thought this would go great when Padma blew him off the first time. I had almost seen it coming a mile away...
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #464 on: 14 Jan 2012, 08:20 »

Why are people acting like Padma treated Marten badly? Or "used" him? She behaved in a way consistent with the parameters established at the beginning of their involvement. They were not dating, they were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were two adults who decided to hook up temporarily. There was no emotional obligation. "OMG, she wanted a booty call after not talking for a week!"  The whole relationship has been one long booty call. That was the point.

Both misread the others intentions.


Thank youuuu, I've been thinking this same thing all along.

Fun last minute fling+Rebound+lack of communication= This will not end well
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #465 on: 14 Jan 2012, 09:08 »

We knew it wasn't going to end well back when we heard them both say to themselves, "I'm in trouble."

And foreshadowing THAT was way back here.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #466 on: 14 Jan 2012, 09:45 »

True, I just think a lot of people are upset with the way Padma and Marten treated each other because they're making the "relationship" seem more serious than it was. Should they have been nicer? Sure. But if nothing else happened off screen, to each other they're not much more than not-quite-strangers. People aren't as courteous to those that they don't interact with consistently.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #467 on: 14 Jan 2012, 10:23 »

The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.

Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug first?

Seems to me that Faye is being more of an asshole than anyone else in this situation.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #468 on: 14 Jan 2012, 10:53 »

If you ask me, Marten's assholery doesn't come from 2099.  It comes from the day between 2099 and 2100, when he realized he fucked up and did nothing.  No apology, no explanation, nothing.  Instead, he just sat around until she was actually gone.

Then again, he has her number.  He could still call and talk to her, if she'll take the call.  It probably won't bring them together, but it could help them both move on.

Also, to the person who suggested he did something off panel, that'd be nice, but he would've mentioned it to Faye.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #469 on: 14 Jan 2012, 12:07 »

The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.

Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug first?

Honestly, sometimes being blunt (different from being an asshole - Faye was stating the truth in a baldfaced manner, not being purposefully insulting to Marten) is the better thing to do as a friend. Not wrapping an opinion in cotton candy and puppy dogs is beneficial in some circumstances, because it doesn't dilute the advice/message that Faye's trying to get across - in this case, "You dun screwed up, boy!". If she were to validate his actions, she'd be less of a friend imo - he's trying to improve himself, and giving him false affirmation isn't going to do him any favors.

Some people need to be smacked in the face with the truth, and honestly, it's better that a friend do it, as they're more likely to sit down with you and discuss -why- what you did was wrong, rather than just point out the error and be on their way.

Sorry for the disjointed rambling.
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sitnspin

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #470 on: 14 Jan 2012, 12:29 »

The interesting part was where Marten fished for reassurance from Faye that what he did was OK; I'm glad she did not oblige.

Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug first?

The thing is, he didn't say "I've done something stupid and made it worse."  He simply told her what he did, he made no statement suggesting he thought it was stupid. When she asked why he did it, he made a snarky passive-aggressive response.

Personally, I appreciate a friend who will call me out when I am being a douche. I have no problem with Faye's reaction. It is probably not the reaction I would have given, but I have a friend who totally would if I were in Marten's position and even if it pissed me off at the moment, I would eventually agree and be thankful I have a friend who is not afraid to tell me the truth.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #471 on: 14 Jan 2012, 12:44 »

Quote

Honestly, sometimes being blunt (different from being an asshole - Faye was stating the truth in a baldfaced manner, not being purposefully insulting to Marten) is the better thing to do as a friend. Not wrapping an opinion in cotton candy and puppy dogs is beneficial in some circumstances, because it doesn't dilute the advice/message that Faye's trying to get across - in this case, "You dun screwed up, boy!". If she were to validate his actions, she'd be less of a friend imo - he's trying to improve himself, and giving him false affirmation isn't going to do him any favors.

Some people need to be smacked in the face with the truth, and honestly, it's better that a friend do it, as they're more likely to sit down with you and discuss -why- what you did was wrong, rather than just point out the error and be on their way.

Sorry for the disjointed rambling.

I agree with you in principle but not in any specific in regards to this situation;

- Faye doesn't know the full situation, as Friday's strip is obviously Marten only telling her about the call now. she knows Marten has some emotional investment in Padma (he's in CoD worrying about her, at least) and she knows he's not a playa or an abusive person (at least never deliberately) so tough love seems difficult to justify to me.

- There is definitely a line somewhere between cotton candy/puppy dogs and "you are an asshole." which would be preferable, perhaps a "That seems like a really, really stupid thing to have done, why did you do it?"

- Marten is incredibly defensive during Friday's strip, but look at the last panel, he looks pretty depressed to me - he needs someone to help him understand his feelings and his actions, not to berate him.

- as someone pointed out, only a little while before Christmas we saw Faye confused and asking herself questions she needed help with about her own relationship. Marten walked in and talked it through and handled it well. It seems a poor show that when Marten is in a similar position regarding feeling unsure of his actions and their justifications that Faye reacts so poorly.

(Marten helping Faye out link)
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2082,
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Omega Entity

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #472 on: 14 Jan 2012, 12:57 »

I get what you're saying, but in Faye's case it was a different situation; she was feeling confused and insecure about the depth of her relationship with Angus - she didn't take it out on Angus, and she wasn't being a bitch.

Faye had enough background from the same strip you mentioned (where he's in CoD) to know that Marten obviously cares about Padma and was hoping that she'd return his calls, though was also aware from context that Padma was being non-communicative. The reason -why- wasn't apparent, but the general situation was pretty clear. When she finally did, he went for the petty retaliation.

And to be fair, Marten called himself an asshole first while Faye was simply agreeing with him, rather than falling into the fishing trap that he set for her. And yes, it was most definitely a fishing attempt - I've pulled enough of them in my days to know it when I see it  :-P
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #473 on: 14 Jan 2012, 13:06 »

A fair cop, I guess the only response I'd put forward is that it seems like he's hiding his vulnerability behind it - surely something Faye should recognise in someone else having suffered it for a long time herself.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #474 on: 14 Jan 2012, 13:24 »

Oh, no doubt he is hiding behind it. However, Faye knows what it's like to be there, and also likely knows that it's counterproductive to encourage the behavior, which by giving Marten the kind of attention/affirmation that he's looking for will likely do.

I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten. And I have to say, it was the best thing they could have done for me.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #475 on: 14 Jan 2012, 13:49 »

I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten.

I hope I never encounter any of your friends. Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy. Marten may have done something socially uncomfortable or whatnot, but after all this time, after everything in every strip, to suddenly start labelling him is just disgusting.

She didn't say something like "What you did is assholeish". She did not delineate behavior.

She simply called him a name, one that doesn't even come close to accurately describing him. That was neither necessary, nor is it helpful in the slightest.

At all.

Talking about behavior can help a person to recognize their behavior and work through it. Talking about behavior shows friendship.
Calling people names has the opposite effect- in the real world it oftentimes creates defensiveness, causing the labelled person to pull inside themselves. It's also a good way for the "friend" doing the name-calling to end up getting punched in the face.
« Last Edit: 14 Jan 2012, 14:11 by AnAverageWriter »
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Omega Entity

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #476 on: 14 Jan 2012, 14:14 »

No, I never was called an asshole by my friends. But they were very blunt with me, regarding what they had problems with. And again I reiterate, it's not like Faye came out of nowhere and called him an asshole out of the blue. He called himself that first, and she simply agreed. Big difference.
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AnAverageWriter

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #477 on: 14 Jan 2012, 14:27 »

He called himself that first, and she simply agreed. Big difference.

I'm going to have to disagree on this. She KNOWS Marten. She knows that one of the first things he does in a stressful situation is to self-deprecate. That is who he is, what he does. In every scenario, in every situation, he turns to those he trusts, self deprecates, and eventually moves beyond.

She didn't "simply" do anything- she took his self deprecation and turned it against him as an insult in the worst possible way.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #478 on: 14 Jan 2012, 14:31 »

Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy.

It might be prudent to consider that the way this insult is viewed may vary in different places.  In my part of the world it is a strong insult, but not one that needs to be avoided at any cost.  If Faye had used it out of the blue (which she didn't) I would probably have been startled, but I would have been more likely to think: "she certainly feels strongly about that!" than: "she's beyond the pale for saying that!"; turning Marten's own deprecation back on him, as Faye did, would be entirely within bounds in my circle.

As an aside, this also illustrates one of the problems of moderating an international forum like this!
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #479 on: 14 Jan 2012, 14:32 »

A point someone made earlier, which somehow got lost, is that Marten didn't really argue for himself or present his side of the story. He may have been fishing, but it also looks like he could have been kicking himself and inviting Faye to help.

If Padma was busy moving, why didn't she invite Marten to help her pack?

Quote from: lepetitfromage
True, I just think a lot of people are upset with the way Padma and Marten treated each other because they're making the "relationship" seem more serious than it was. Should they have been nicer? Sure. But if nothing else happened off screen, to each other they're not much more than not-quite-strangers. People aren't as courteous to those that they don't interact with consistently.

I see what you mean, but some consideration is appropriate after someone gets naked and vulnerable with you.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #480 on: 14 Jan 2012, 14:55 »

Why didn't he call her back and say something?

Because he didn't want to hear her say the two words she probably would have said.

First word starts with an f, and the second is "you".
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #481 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:13 »

I don't know about these guys, but there have been times where behaviors I've had only get the desired result for so long. After a while, my friends got sick of it, and pretty much gave me a verbal (and necessary) bitch-slap, much as Faye has done to Marten.

I hope I never encounter any of your friends. Anyone who would consider "You are an asshole" as an appropriate friend response to just about ANYTHING needs some serious mental therapy. Marten may have done something socially uncomfortable or whatnot, but after all this time, after everything in every strip, to suddenly start labelling him is just disgusting.

She didn't say something like "What you did is assholeish". She did not delineate behavior.

She simply called him a name, one that doesn't even come close to accurately describing him. That was neither necessary, nor is it helpful in the slightest.

At all.

Talking about behavior can help a person to recognize their behavior and work through it. Talking about behavior shows friendship.
Calling people names has the opposite effect- in the real world it oftentimes creates defensiveness, causing the labelled person to pull inside themselves. It's also a good way for the "friend" doing the name-calling to end up getting punched in the face.
This happened in the same comic strip where she just called Martin a "buttass" as a term of endearment. So I don't think she's exactly being literal; she's calling out his behavior by using the same words he just used to describe himself, only not sarcastically. It's a bit more poetic that way.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #482 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:13 »

FrozenPeas, I'm sure you are welcome to make two posts in a row when they are so brilliantly written. Although once again I don't entirely agree with you (just mostly agree).
I think that Marten has experienced some growth since #1800, but I think we're forgetting that this is QC time. I've only been around since #1804, but I can tell from the archives that it took a loooooooong time for Faye to get from "If I sense any lusting, I will stab you" to managing to say that she loved someone. And then only meaning it in retrospect. My theory is that we expect character development to happen more quickly than it does because the days pass much more quickly for us than for them. I'm going to give a rough estimate of... let's say 3-4 months since Marten and Dora broke up, probably not even that. Time skips are pretty tricky things to judge. The point is, you're right about Marten only being calm as long as things are going well for him, but he was like that in the lead up to #1800, and it's fairly unreasonable for us to expect him to change that aspect of himself so quickly.

I also think that your haircut comment might be a bad example in this case, if only because Padma's actions likely had a much more serious effect on Marten than they should have. We can only really imagine how heartbroken he was by Vicky breaking up with him (although he was angry enough to be gratified when Faye assaulted her with a carton of milk), and it's quite likely that this scenario brought up some painful memories of that time. It isn't really anybody's fault that Marten's memory (I'm assuming here) made that association, but it probably made him even more bitter than he already was, and that's why he acted so harshly.

So in summary, you're right about Marten's behaviour when things are/aren't going his way, but his character shouldn't be expected to grow that quickly, and this was likely a lot more serious for him than a minor obstacle.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #483 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:14 »

If Padma was busy moving, why didn't she invite Marten to help her pack?
Because the suggestion that her failure to call him was an accidental omission in her week long frenzy of packing was a bald faced lie, used to avoid openly admitting the more painful truth; she'd been avoiding him.
This happened in the same comic strip where she just called Martin a "buttass" as a term of endearment. So I don't think she's exactly being literal; she's calling out his behavior by using the same words he just used to describe himself, only not sarcastically. It's a bit more poetic that way.
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm.  "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #484 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:27 »

I found Marten's face portraying such anger and resentment as a likely indicator that Faye's tone was rather sharp, personally.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #485 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:36 »

I found Marten's face portraying such anger and resentment as a likely indicator that Faye's tone was rather sharp, personally.
In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile.  I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #486 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:41 »

Quote
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm.  "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.
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Omega Entity

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #487 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:46 »


In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile.  I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.
[/quote]

Agreed on the last panel. He seems more shocked and a little dismayed that Faye didn't jump right in and contradict him, in my opinion.

Quote
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm.  "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.

This! This was along the lines of what I had in mind, but sometimes I'm horrible about getting things into understandable terms. When my friends were blunt with me, it was to make me snap out of it, to make me realize that what I was doing wasn't working.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #488 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:46 »

Quote
Faye's terms of endearment for Marten are pretty indelicate, but they're also warm.  "You are an asshole!" conveyed absolutely no warmth, to me, though tone can be difficult to convey in comics.
It seemed to me she was trying to snap him out of self pity by using his own words. I just don't get the impression that Faye literally thinks that Martin is an asshole, and I don't think Martin took it as "she thinks I'm an asshole in general." You don't live with someone on purpose that you think is an asshole, but sometimes friends in their 20s talk like that to each other., e.g., "you were a dick last night at the bar", "you're a monstrous slob," or "you're an asshole" for telling a girl you're supposedly "in love with" that you're busy on the last night she's in town just to get back at her.
No argument there.  My friends and I trash talk eachother all the time, and yes, sometimes the ugly words aren't entirely in jest.  I don't remember what my original point was.  Maybe I didn't have one.  Also, I'd say that if he ever was actually "in love" with Padma, the spell was probably broken before he rejected her.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #489 on: 14 Jan 2012, 15:57 »

Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #490 on: 14 Jan 2012, 16:02 »

Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
And in unison, they all broke down in to tears as the disembodied voices relentlessly hammered them with cruel words and judgements most dire!
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #491 on: 14 Jan 2012, 16:21 »

Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.

Wouldn't that be called schizophrenia, manic depression or psychosis?
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Omega Entity

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #492 on: 14 Jan 2012, 16:30 »

The first and the last, possibly, but not the middle - that's rapid mood swings. Which I believe is now called bi-polar.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #493 on: 14 Jan 2012, 17:22 »

Really? So if you know that a close friend is upset about a situation and they say "I've just done something stupid and made matters worse", you think "What the hell did you do that for, you asshole?" is the right response? Rather than, say, at least giving them a sympathetic hug first?

Um, you reading the same comic as me? That's not what happened. If he'd actually said what you posted, maybe she would have responded differently, hmm?
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #494 on: 14 Jan 2012, 17:30 »

Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.

Maybe that's what Hanner's problem is. She actually hears what we say on the internet forums. ;)
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #495 on: 14 Jan 2012, 17:40 »

Maybe that's what Hanner's problem is. She actually hears what we say on the internet forums. ;)

That would also explain her psychic powers - because we on the forums always forsee coming events in the comic with perfect clarity. ;)
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #496 on: 14 Jan 2012, 17:57 »

A point someone made earlier, which somehow got lost, is that Marten didn't really argue for himself or present his side of the story. He may have been fishing, but it also looks like he could have been kicking himself and inviting Faye to help.

I'm pretty sure that was me. And looks like Faye was all too happy to play along. But then again, that's Faye for you. Like someone else pointed out, Marten tends to turn on himself in times of stress, and this is a stressful situation. It also doesn't help that he can't really articulate why he blew Padma off - he may not WANT to admit, even to himself, that he was hurt and angry at Padma disappearing on him-so no wonder he couldn't (wouldn't?) explain it to Faye or even to Padma herself.  I agree with jwhouk that he most likely didn't call her back because he expected to be cursed out and called nasty names (if she even answered the phone), and I don't think he was up to taking that from Padma. But he was still feeling bad about blowing her off and felt he needed to be "punished" for that, so he went to the person who would most certainly give him a swift kick in the hindquarters if he didn't explain himself (and maybe even if he did)-his dear friend Faye. Who filled her role perfectly.

Not that I think Marten was all calculating and deliberate about this, it was probably almost entirely subconscious. All of which makes Marten sound like someone in serious need of therapy, I know. And maybe he is. But until he is convinced of that need, Faye's the closest thing he's got, heaven help him.
« Last Edit: 14 Jan 2012, 18:02 by themacnut »
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Milesb

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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #497 on: 14 Jan 2012, 18:19 »

In the panel she says it, to me, he mostly just looks deflated and fragile.  I'm not making any implications about what that means for her tone though, I thought that was his face when he was uttering the words, not for when she interjected.

Sorry, shoulda spent longer writing my original post, I didn't really put across what I was trying to say.

I think panels 4 and 5 show Marten as a bit angry at least, I believe both expressions are related to Faye's response and the tone she was probably using.

I know that personal experiences don't count (fictional characters), but have you ever told someone something only to have them fly off the handle without thinking? it's pretty difficult to deal with in a reasonable manner, and it's the situation as I see it in this strip.

Then yes, Faye shoots him down and he looks a bit gutted in the last panel.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #498 on: 14 Jan 2012, 22:10 »

Just imagine how much more confused the characters would be if they could hear our analyses and advice.
Made me think of Stranger than Fiction.

Why didn't he call her back and say something?

Because he didn't want to hear her say the two words she probably would have said.
Would she have, though?  If she felt bad for putting him off, and he called back quick enough, she might not have been mad about it.
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Re: WCDT January 9-13, 2012 (2096-2100)
« Reply #499 on: 14 Jan 2012, 22:22 »

I think so too. But he didn't, and it would have turned into another one of those situations where the longer you leave, the greater the potential pain thus the less likely you are to be able to do it. It pretty much ends up a choice of - immediately or never.
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Yet the lies of Melkor, the mighty and the accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. (Silmarillion 255)
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