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Poll

What was... THE MOMENT OF THE WEEK?

Faye points out the obvious: you both had feelings for each other.
- 0 (0%)
What was I supposed to do? (Oh, I dunno, BE DECENT about it?)
- 1 (1.4%)
She was leaving. (You could have at LEAST said you tried.)
- 0 (0%)
Yeah, all that got you was your entire current life.
- 2 (2.7%)
It IS a waste, because you're WASTING it.
- 4 (5.5%)
You just owned me there...
- 2 (2.7%)
Being passive is his nature.
- 0 (0%)
You gotta DO Stuff.
- 1 (1.4%)
...break out the guitar.
- 1 (1.4%)
SOPA SUCKS.
- 8 (11%)
Pintsize apologizes.
- 1 (1.4%)
Pintsize was in MEXICO!
- 1 (1.4%)
McPedro and Choo-Choo Bear!
- 3 (4.1%)
Hannerdad's havin' a birthday!
- 5 (6.8%)
Can I bring Marten & Marigold?
- 3 (4.1%)
I KNOW Marten's safe.
- 0 (0%)
Marigold.... (FRRRRT)
- 7 (9.6%)
I'm PRETTY SURE she's not a secret robot.
- 5 (6.8%)
I have a question for you guys...
- 0 (0%)
See, it's my dad's birthday next week...
- 0 (0%)
Dad also said I could bring some friends with me...
- 1 (1.4%)
YES
- 28 (38.4%)

Total Members Voted: 64


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Author Topic: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope  (Read 58621 times)

ZBixby

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #100 on: 16 Jan 2012, 13:54 »

I hope not.  That's kind of horrible.

No lie, especially considering how much she just eviscerated him. 

Although I do remember one comic a while back with Faye grabbing onto Marten telling him he couldn't move across country for a girl all over again. Just don't feel like archive binging to find it.
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Milesb

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #101 on: 16 Jan 2012, 13:55 »

It could simply be that she felt he needed to sort this one out on his own in order to have an opportunity to grow as a person!

But then her going off on one at him makes no sense.

It's gotta be said, if it was so obvious to her you have to wonder why she didn't mention it to Marten. There's plenty of totally good reasons she might have not told him. But she did also have a vested interest which she clearly knew about...

Here's the link to the comic in question!
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2025

All speculatory though.

Edit: Added link.
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NotAwesomeAnymore

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #102 on: 16 Jan 2012, 13:58 »

I really think she just expected him to know that though... It's doubtful that he'd move across the country for a lady he'd known for a month. And Dora already told him he had to go to tSB to see what's up.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #103 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:00 »

Why is it Marten's responsibility to be the "decent" one here and why is he being ragged on for not being good guy doormat Marten?

I understand the ideal, but again, when do other people need to start taking responsibility for their own emotions instead of just doing and expecting Marten to forgive them for it?

He's not being ragged on for not being a doormat - he is in fact being ragged on for not taking responsibility for his own emotions, and instead acting with a victim mentality. It's not about being the "decent" one, it's about taking care of himself.

And that's a good thing, because the last time he "took a kick at it" he ended up flat on his back and feeling like a fool, alone on the far side of the country without his guitar.  Romantic gestures rarely end well.

This got addressed in the comic, read it again.

One of the tricks to a happy life is knowing when to take a risk and when to not.  There was simply no upside for Marten in this case outside of the wildest romantic fantasies.  Padma pulled away from him, then decided at the last minute she'd like to see him again before she left.  

He decided he'd rather feel badly about not catering to her emotional needs than getting his own heart ripped up.  Sounds like a sensible decision to me, and one I wish I'd been more apt to make at his age.

No-one is saying he should have taken a risk - he absolutely was ignoring his own emotional needs by doing what he did.

Because, at least in this strip, it seems all right for every single female character to beat up on Marten with no repercussions at all.

What repercussions should there be for helping a friend? And please stop trying to turn this into a battle of the sexes yet again.

He just seems to constantly be held to this standard of sainthood which leaves him constantly getting dumped on.

He doesn't have to be a saint. Be serious.


In today's strip I am seeing Faye calling him out for not going to Padma and trying to do... something.. regardless of the fact Padma is leaving - is she saying he should have gone with her? I don't think so. How could he have convinced Padma to stay? She's booked the tickets, she's packed her bags. She's going.

Of course not.

Thirdly, a comment about wasting a life is like: daaang! I know Faye's got Angus now and she's been doing her sculpture and stuff, but daaang man, Marten helped paved the way for her to be able to do that with her life by being a good friend, I would have hoped she'd have tried to do it back.

To be honest I actually think Marten should stand up to Faye. I don't know if anyone here agrees, but I think Faye is actually quite detrimental to Marten's personal development.

He was standing up to her until he realised that she was in fact right. But by all means, cheer on his right to stubbornly argue against the bleeding obvious. It would clearly be better for his personal development.



He only ever ends up in these situations now because his emotions get the better of him.

At least this I agree with.

1. "Opened up?" How? If anything she closed herself off. She made her choices. Time to live with them. Her feelings and peace of mind aren't Marten's responsibility.

This has nothing to do with her feelings nor her peace of mind. It's ... hang on I'm copying and pasting this one.
It's not about being the "decent" one, it's about taking care of himself.

Ok, am I right in thinking that since most people completely ignored my post... that no one else finds it odd that Faye has a near psychic understanding of why Padma did what she did, but didn't seem to think it was a good idea to tell Marten until after it was too late?

I don't think it could have been all that clear to her what really happened until she learned that Padma made that final phone call.

I think that's all I can cope with for now.  :roll:

Edit: Maybe just one more thing. >.>

I am kind of amazed that people are saying that Marten is a doormat for not "defending himself against Faye." And yet no-one has said anything about the defeatist and victim mentality that produced a statement like "I've tried before and look how THAT worked out for me." You know, you can cut up Faye's response to that in any way you like, but there is no defending a pathetic statement like that. It's exactly the victimhood mentality Marten needs to lose. Yet in spite of that, everyone is obsessed with Charlie bloody Brown and him being a doormat. I have been trying to ignore the whole sexism debacle, but I do wonder what the reaction would have been if Angus or Sven had told him exactly the same things. Seriously.
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2012, 14:09 by Tova »
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Milesb

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #104 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:15 »

He was standing up to her until he realised that she was in fact right. But by all means, cheer on his right to stubbornly argue against the bleeding obvious. It would clearly be better for his personal development.

Well, I politely disagree that Faye was in fact right and question her right to berate him if it seemed clear to her but he didn't know, so the second and third sentences are rather moot to me.

I think she browbeat him into submission, and that's not helping the situation at all.
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NightmarePhoenix

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #105 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:21 »

Hello all, this is my first post on these forums but I really wanted to weigh in on today's comic(1/16), especially after reading some of the posts in this thread.

Honestly, I am glad at the talk Faye had with Marten, because the truth is that Marten was wrong in how he handled that last call with Padma. Marten spent a good bit of time being down that she hadn't returned his calls, but didn't want to go over to the bakery to avoid being awkward, which in part is fair. He assumed that something was up and decided to just wait and find out what was going on later. However, when he does hear from her, he sort of goes into a clipped speech mode, ya know, when you respond with the shortest possible sentence to get your message across, mostly with one or two words. That way of talking that says that you don't want to talk. Why he did this is obvious, he was hurt/angry/upset because he felt like she wronged him, thats all true, but he didn't try to tell her any of this or ask why. He went with the petty "you avoided me and it hurt, so I'm going to do the same back to you." He did this knowing that this would probably be his last chance to see her before she left, and to top it off, instead of even giving her the chance to try to explain over the phone or anything, he cuts her off with "Have a safe trip.", like she's already gone in his mind. He immediately thought he was an asshole when he did it, he thought he was an asshole when he told Faye, and Faye spelled it out for him today.

Faye on the other hand was in the right. Heck, she was in the right at least three times over to the point of being sinister (sorry, my favorite pun <.<) . I've seen posts that Faye was too harsh on Marten, or her comments about him being a "pissy little bitch", or she was secretly hoping their relationship would fail so he didn't leave, or that she knew what was up but didn't tell him because she is in someway a bad influence on him or something. To sum up my response to all of those:
-_-.

Marten isn't a frail child and telling him when he screwed up sometimes means that there isn't any room for sugar-coating it, especially when Marten wants to be in self-denial of any wrongdoing. About Marten trying to follow Padma to LA, Marten hasn't considered leaving and Padma never suggested him come along with her to the point of wanting to stay longer herself instead, that wasn't something Faye would be worrying about, especially after actually telling Marten that it freaked her out. If anything, Marten going after Padma is more likely to happen now because Faye told him to get his head out of his ass, rather than if she didn't.  As to her know what was up, Faye and Raven both told him that he should go and talk to her and stop being so passive, they tried to help before this and he didn't take their advice. Saying that Faye knew what was up but didn't tell him is kinda like trying to blame her for this situation because she didn't specifically tell Marten "She may like you and not want to leave."

Also, about Faye telling him that he was wasting his life in that way that kinda floored him. Instead of taking it literally, I feel like she was using something he said earlier to smack him upside the head for being stupid. Marten got all "Well trying is stupid, look where that got me" but in #2025, he was all "I met my friends because of trying soooo..."  Her reason for being pissed is pretty legit, since he basically said in one sentence that everything he went through and everyone he met wasn't worth it, and I'm pretty sure if any of you heard a friend say that because they were upset, you'd try to own them into silence too.

As to him wasting his life? There is a girl he liked alot, missed, and wanted to see before she went away, but when the time came, he lied about being busy, without giving so much as a reason. That sounds like an opportunity wasted, and what is life besides a series of opportunities for us to take or let go. Marten is a very good guy, and he knows better than this and that's why he was so wrong here. I've made a similar mistake like this before, and I'm glad that Marten had a friend to set him straight on it like that. Hopefully he'll call Padma and try to patch things up, or maybe she hasn't actually left yet, who knows. We'll see in the next few days.
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2012, 15:16 by NightmarePhoenix »
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #106 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:21 »

Angus and Sven aren't Marten's "best friends," so you'd expect different reactions.  

I, and many others here, are jumping off on the constant abuse Marten takes at the hands of those who are supposed to be his loved ones.  Yes, your friends and family are supposed to get you out of feeling sorry for yourself, but sometimes you just need a day or two to freakin' MOPE, ya know?  With Marten though, there is NO TIME ALLOWED FOR MOPING, and instead of a goddamn HUG or "I'm sorry you're hurting.  Want to talk about it," which is what most people get, he gets nailed with being called "an asshole" and "a pissy little bitch" in THE SAME CONVERSATION with someone who is supposedly HIS BEST FRIEND.  

As has been pointed out, this was done ostensibly to get him to be more active in his destiny, but every single time he's done that, he's gotten belittled or punched in the face, or humiliated in front of his friends, and on and on and on.  I agree that he needs to get himself out of this rut and establish more goals for his life, but you can only watch a guy get gang-jumped so many times before you start feeling well and truly sorry for him, fictional character or not.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #107 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:23 »

Marten should have known that Padma was interested. It happened.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #108 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:27 »

Well, I politely disagree that Faye was in fact right and question her right to berate him if it seemed clear to her but he didn't know, so the second and third sentences are rather moot to me.

I think she browbeat him into submission, and that's not helping the situation at all.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Angus and Sven aren't Marten's "best friends," so you'd expect different reactions. 

OK, let me rephrase that to "if Faye were male." And yes, I realise that you can't just make a change like that and keep the rest of the situation constant, so let me just spell it out - I think that the fierceness of the reaction against what Faye has done is largely the way it is because she is female. There. I've said it. Consequences be damned.

Quote
I, and many others here, are jumping off on the constant abuse Marten takes at the hands of those who are supposed to be his loved ones.  Yes, your friends and family are supposed to get you out of feeling sorry for yourself, but sometimes you just need a day or two to freakin' MOPE, ya know?  With Marten though, there is NO TIME ALLOWED FOR MOPING, and instead of a goddamn HUG or "I'm sorry you're hurting.  Want to talk about it," which is what most people get, he gets nailed with being called "an asshole" and "a pissy little bitch" in THE SAME CONVERSATION with someone who is supposedly HIS BEST FRIEND. 

As has been pointed out, this was done ostensibly to get him to be more active in his destiny, but every single time he's done that, he's gotten belittled or punched in the face, or humiliated in front of his friends, and on and on and on.  I agree that he needs to get himself out of this rut and establish more goals for his life, but you can only watch a guy get gang-jumped so many times before you start feeling well and truly sorry for him, fictional character or not.

He's not moping, he's being a victim and giving up. Big difference. He gets support when he needs it, and right now this is the support he needs.

Gang-jumped? Could you be any more dramatic?  :psyduck:
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NightmarePhoenix

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #109 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:31 »

Angus and Sven aren't Marten's "best friends," so you'd expect different reactions.  

I, and many others here, are jumping off on the constant abuse Marten takes at the hands of those who are supposed to be his loved ones.  Yes, your friends and family are supposed to get you out of feeling sorry for yourself, but sometimes you just need a day or two to freakin' MOPE, ya know?  With Marten though, there is NO TIME ALLOWED FOR MOPING, and instead of a goddamn HUG or "I'm sorry you're hurting.  Want to talk about it," which is what most people get, he gets nailed with being called "an asshole" and "a pissy little bitch" in THE SAME CONVERSATION with someone who is supposedly HIS BEST FRIEND.  

As has been pointed out, this was done ostensibly to get him to be more active in his destiny, but every single time he's done that, he's gotten belittled or punched in the face, or humiliated in front of his friends, and on and on and on.  I agree that he needs to get himself out of this rut and establish more goals for his life, but you can only watch a guy get gang-jumped so many times before you start feeling well and truly sorry for him, fictional character or not.

You're forgetting that Marten kinda did mope for at least a week when Padma wasn't returning his calls, and right now him getting called out on it when Padma leaving is a time sensitive matter. Past that, Marten doesn't really get any serious abuse from his friends and loved ones, more of it is gentle ribbing at the fact that when things go well, his first response to is worry about how its going to go wrong, and he kinda does need to stop doing that. Recently, Steve has kinda been slightly more jerkish, but its still on the same line as above. The only other real time I can think of Marten taking abuse was when his Mom told him to get out of his room and stop moping... because he had been moping for a while by that point.
« Last Edit: 16 Jan 2012, 15:16 by NightmarePhoenix »
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #110 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:33 »

(Wall of short responses to other posts.)

Too long but did read.

Quote
He's not being ragged on for not being a doormat - he is in fact being ragged on for not taking responsibility for his own emotions, and instead acting with a victim mentality. It's not about being the "decent" one, it's about taking care of himself.

Actually, from what I've seen Marten generally doesn't act with a victim mentality; only when he's been run-around or antagonized to the point of depression.

Quote
He doesn't have to be a saint. Be serious.

It's true, he doesn't.  The other characters treat him pretty well until those times he seems to be filled with self-hatred or passive-aggression.  Of course, he has mostly treated them well even when they have the same issues, but they do not require him to.

Quote
I think that's all I can cope with for now.  :roll:

 :roll:

Quote
You know, you can cut up Faye's response to that in any way you like, but there is no defending a pathetic statement like that. It's exactly the victimhood mentality Marten needs to lose. Yet in spite of that, everyone is obsessed with Charlie bloody Brown and him being a doormat. I have been trying to ignore the whole sexism debacle, but I do wonder what the reaction would have been if Angus or Sven had told him exactly the same things. Seriously.

...
Wut?
No defending a pathetic statement, for a guy who's clearly in the dumps?  It's certainly pessimistic, but you think he meant absolutely meant it?  You think if he wasn't a doormat, a lot of his problems wouldn't go away?
And I think the reaction towards Angus or Sven might be worse, since they aren't really his friends.  Most people here are just averring that Faye is factually wrong, bemoaning that he's surrounded by people (the women and Steve) who constantly judge him and think they know what's best for him, and think of Faye is a hypocrite (though I don't personally see how it matters).

Warning - while you were typing five new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Man, it took me like two minutes.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #111 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:34 »


Angus and Sven aren't Marten's "best friends," so you'd expect different reactions. 

OK, let me rephrase that to "if Faye were male." And yes, I realise that you can't just make a change like that and keep the rest of the situation constant, so let me just spell it out - I think that the fierceness of the reaction against what Faye has done is largely the way it is because she is female. There. I've said it. Consequences be damned.

Oh, baloney.  Nobody has said anything even resembling that.  The "fierceness of the reaction" is because Faye's coming off like a heartless beast instead of a friend. 


I, and many others here, are jumping off on the constant abuse Marten takes at the hands of those who are supposed to be his loved ones.  Yes, your friends and family are supposed to get you out of feeling sorry for yourself, but sometimes you just need a day or two to freakin' MOPE, ya know?  With Marten though, there is NO TIME ALLOWED FOR MOPING, and instead of a goddamn HUG or "I'm sorry you're hurting.  Want to talk about it," which is what most people get, he gets nailed with being called "an asshole" and "a pissy little bitch" in THE SAME CONVERSATION with someone who is supposedly HIS BEST FRIEND. 

As has been pointed out, this was done ostensibly to get him to be more active in his destiny, but every single time he's done that, he's gotten belittled or punched in the face, or humiliated in front of his friends, and on and on and on.  I agree that he needs to get himself out of this rut and establish more goals for his life, but you can only watch a guy get gang-jumped so many times before you start feeling well and truly sorry for him, fictional character or not.

He's not moping, he's being a victim and giving up. Big difference. He gets support when he needs it, and right now this is the support he needs.

Gang-jumped? Could you be any more dramatic?  :psyduck:

I certainly could have.  How else would you describe no fewer than five people (Faye, Dora, Elliot, Ms. Reed, Steve) all coming down on him like a ton of bricks over the past year or so?
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NightmarePhoenix

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #112 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:35 »

I think that the fierceness of the reaction against what Faye has done is largely the way it is because she is female. There. I've said it. Consequences be damned.

You are a brave soul and I respect your commitment to your opinion.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #113 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:44 »

How else would you describe no fewer than five people (Faye, Dora, Elliot, Ms. Reed, Steve) all coming down on him like a ton of bricks over the past year or so?

It's a story; of course  teh drama makes a disproportionate appearance.  Each of those incidents probably lasted no more than a few minutes out of the couple of months that have passed.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #114 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:46 »

How else would you describe no fewer than five people (Faye, Dora, Elliot, Ms. Reed, Steve) all coming down on him like a ton of bricks over the past year or so?

It's a story; of course  teh drama makes a disproportionate appearance.  Each of those incidents probably lasted no more than a few minutes out of the couple of months that have passed.

You know, if you keep pointing out that this is a fictional story with fictional people in a fictional universe, you're REALLY going to suck the fun out of this place.   :-D
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #115 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:49 »

You are a brave soul and I respect your commitment to your opinion.

Ha ha yes I am shooting for Mr. Popularity this month.  :-D

And to be honest I am not totally proud of my wall of short responses, and didn't give that post the time it really needed. My only defense is that there were so many posts I wanted to respond to!

So seeing as I don't really have the time to continue to commit as much time as I would like, I'll bail. Except I will just part by saying that Faye really isn't being a "heartless beast". Truely. It may come across that way to some, but I do believe that not only does she have Marten's best interests at heart, but as well as that, Marten will very quickly appreciate what Faye has done for him. It's tough love - cliche, but there it is. He's not going to come to resent her approach in the same way as he does his mother's.

Even if you don't believe that her approach was ideal (maybe it wasn't) but her heart was definitely in the right place. She is trying to help him, not to "kick" him or be malicious.

Now I'd better close this browser window and get some real work done.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #116 on: 16 Jan 2012, 14:50 »

You know, if you keep pointing out that this is a fictional story with fictional people in a fictional universe, you're REALLY going to suck the fun out of this place.   :-D

In a week like this, I sometimes look at the forum on my screen and say to myself: "it's all just electrons - none  of it is real".
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #117 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:01 »

Hmm, I'd like to clarify for my own sake at least that my opinion of Faye's actions is not based upon her gender.

You could literally replace Faye with Steve in the last two strips and I'd think he was being unduly harsh and a pretty lame friend, as I think Faye was. For me at least it's not gender specific.

It doesn't help that Steve is one of the other characters who I feel contributes to Marten's environment of browbeating.

If it was Hanners, Penelope, Tai or Angus handing out this kind of smack down, I would stop and go "Aw jeez! they really must know something about this, or Marten must be acting like a dick!" - because these people do not habitually harass and browbeat Marten. See what I'm getting at?
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #118 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:11 »

You know, if you keep pointing out that this is a fictional story with fictional people in a fictional universe, you're REALLY going to suck the fun out of this place.   :-D

In a week like this, I sometimes look at the forum on my screen and say to myself: "it's all just electrons - none  of it is real".

Oh GREAT, now we're going to get existential.  Jesus Huggy Bear Christ, I'd better get a beer. 
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Method of Madness

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #119 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:18 »


"It's like the squirt bottle we use for the cat."
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #120 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:23 »

Hmm, I'd like to clarify for my own sake at least that my opinion of Faye's actions is not based upon her gender.

You could literally replace Faye with Steve in the last two strips and I'd think he was being unduly harsh and a pretty lame friend, as I think Faye was. For me at least it's not gender specific.

It doesn't help that Steve is one of the other characters who I feel contributes to Marten's environment of browbeating.

If it was Hanners, Penelope, Tai or Angus handing out this kind of smack down, I would stop and go "Aw jeez! they really must know something about this, or Marten must be acting like a dick!" - because these people do not habitually harass and browbeat Marten. See what I'm getting at?

So wait, because you feel like Faye 'picks' on Marten, what she said is harsh and makes her a lame friend, but the same words coming from someone else means that Marten has to be acting like a dick? That's a little unfair towards her. Faye has always been sorta a rough person, its how she is and there are several times when she comes out and says "hey, I'm kinda an ass, sorry about that." but she doesn't needlessly browbeat him or harass him past playing around. And messing around with him like that doesn't mean when, for some reason, someone needs to smack him around that if Faye says it, she's just being mean.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #121 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:30 »

Faye may have realized what Padma was thinking, but may have not realized that Marten didn't, which is probably why she was so surprised that Marten reacted the way he did.

Then she should be kicking herself as well. There was plenty of indication in the previous comics that he DIDN'T realise. If she somehow missed that he didn't know she's as oblivious if not more so than Marten was.

Honestly this comic is the only time in my memory that Jeph has written something that broke me out of the narrative. She just seems to have magical knowledge of what happened, that she didn't previously have (because if she did have it, I really can't understand why she didn't tell Marten).
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #122 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:37 »

Oh GREAT, now we're going to get existential.

I'll go to bed now - I'm sure it'll all be better in the morning (see sig)!
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #123 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:39 »

Riiiiiiiiight.


In the market for a bridge? I know a guy who knows a guy....
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #124 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:41 »

OK, let me rephrase that to "if Faye were male." And yes, I realise that you can't just make a change like that and keep the rest of the situation constant, so let me just spell it out - I think that the fierceness of the reaction against what Faye has done is largely the way it is because she is female. There. I've said it. Consequences be damned.

This would make more sense if it wasn't for the fact that the forum drops on Steve like a brick shithouse every time he does something remotely rude.

Do we really need to pull the sexism card out so often? Its like you want to invalidate everyone's opinions based on assumption rather than the actual argument. "If you don't like what Faye did, you are being sexist." Do you realise how hard it is for people to have discussions in good faith when you are preemptively accusing people of sexism?
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #125 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:44 »

*Disclaimer* The following rant is made with full knowledge that this is a comic and thus fictional and scripted:

You know something?  No.  Hell no.  She chews him out for doing the same thing she did, but because she runs from her feelings while he protects his, he's in the wrong?  And with ALL that said, she expected him to go chase after her for the sake of being able to have said "he tried"?  He's supposed to just get up and run over to her because it's her last night in town after dodging dude for a week.  Heh, SURE.  "Be decent", she says.  No, Faye.  No.  Personally, I was proud of him when he said he was busy, since I knew it was as close as he'd come to saying "It sucks that you dodged me all week and now you wanna see me just as you're leaving. No."  Normally I'm behind Faye when she gets indignantly angry like that, but not this time.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #126 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:48 »

Point taken about reactions to Steve (though I tend to disagree with those as well) - after a bit of a rethink, I'll retract that accusation and offer an apology. I probably got that one wrong in the heat of the moment.

The rest of my posts still stand.  :angel:
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #127 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:52 »

Fair enough, Tova. I actually don't have a problem with the rest of what you said.

Marten is acting like a mopey victim. I think Faye could be a bit nicer to him, but his reaction kind of sucks too.

Honestly the only problem I have with her reaction is that she seems to assume he should know something and is basing her opinion of the situation on the idea it was stupid for him not to know.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #128 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:54 »

*Disclaimer* The following rant is made with full knowledge that this is a comic and thus fictional and scripted:

You know something?  No.  Hell no.  She chews him out for doing the same thing she did, but because she runs from her feelings while he protects his, he's in the wrong?  And with ALL that said, she expected him to go chase after her for the sake of being able to have said "he tried"?  He's supposed to just get up and run over to her because it's her last night in town after dodging dude for a week.  Heh, SURE.  "Be decent", she says.  No, Faye.  No.  Personally, I was proud of him when he said he was busy, since I knew it was as close as he'd come to saying "It sucks that you dodged me all week and now you wanna see me just as you're leaving. No."  Normally I'm behind Faye when she gets indignantly angry like that, but not this time.

Padma = Wrong for dodging Marten.
Marten = Wrong for lying to Padma about being busy instead of coming out and saying "I'm kinda hurt you spent a week dodging me, what was that about? If you'll explain that to me, yeah sure, we can hang out."

Wrong + Wrong =/= Right.  Saying he was busy was small, beneath him and petty. He's better than that. And when exactly did Faye do the same thing?
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #129 on: 16 Jan 2012, 15:56 »

Although after all this Faye laying the "Smack down" on Marten, wouldn't it be something else if Angus does something to make her feel uncomfortable again? Marten does give her a good kick when shes being stupid about something so it's good to see her doing the exact same (albeit it probably won't help retroactively), than again it might if it turns out Padma was playing a game to test him (albeit this is highly unlikely also so please don't jump down my throat about this theoretical situation) and is still around.

The fact is they are good friends and she's doing what probably should have been done when he was in the coffee shop earlier that week when they said he was being aggressively passive.  
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #130 on: 16 Jan 2012, 16:03 »

So wait, because you feel like Faye 'picks' on Marten, what she said is harsh and makes her a lame friend, but the same words coming from someone else means that Marten has to be acting like a dick? That's a little unfair towards her. Faye has always been sorta a rough person, its how she is and there are several times when she comes out and says "hey, I'm kinda an ass, sorry about that." but she doesn't needlessly browbeat him or harass him past playing around. And messing around with him like that doesn't mean when, for some reason, someone needs to smack him around that if Faye says it, she's just being mean.

What I meant, if not what I said in regards to my difference in reading the situation is this:

In a comic, despite the text and the facial expressions, it can be hard to intuit the tone and meaning of a character's dialogue, and for this reason the relative nature of the characters has to come into play when we fill in the gaps in our heads.

When Faye, who has a long history of physical and verbal abuse towards Marten - When she berates Marten, I don't assume it's necessarily justified by Marten's actions because it is in Faye's character to act abusively on occasion.

When for example Hanners has ever snapped at Marten, it has had a much greater implication of genuine justification based on Marten's actions because Hanners does not have a long history of physical and verbal abuse towards him.

it's almost "little boy who cried wolf" - Between Faye, Steve and Dora's general attitude of browbeating, the times when Marten may have deserved it have got lost.

My point is that when a character who does not usually ever harass Marten gets angry at him and tells him he's wrong, I'm more likely to take it seriously than when a character who harasses him regularly gets angry and tells him he's wrong.

Is that bad of me?

I mean, doesn't everyone do this?


Edit: Also, I wasn't talking about Faye specifically in my original post, I was talking about Faye, Steve or Dora, as they are the three that use Marten as their punchbag the most often.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #131 on: 16 Jan 2012, 16:34 »

Edit: Also, I wasn't talking about Faye specifically in my original post, I was talking about Faye, Steve or Dora, as they are the three that use Marten as their punchbag the most often.

I'll agree with Steve, lately he's been kind of a jerk but I feel like its generally because he keeps hearing Marten complain about things going well. Dora.... her and Marten had their falling out, she's probably had maybe like one episode of being dickish towards Marten in the last couple hundred pages. Faye... Faye has been way better than earlier in the comic. She's been there for Marten when he needs it alot, defensive of him even while drunk, and has even had near out of character moments of wisdom for Marten(#1951). I mean, yeah she used to really mess with him alot, but she hasn't in a while...like a long while. Unless you count the petnames of 'buttpoop' and such, what has she done to Marten that makes her so mean? Why does it sound like everyone thinks Faye is a bully, who's barely his friend?
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #132 on: 16 Jan 2012, 17:01 »

Just fo the record, I was one of the people who thought some of the Padma complaints were sexist, because they characterised her as manipulative when we have no evidence of that. I don't think the Faye-hate is sexist though. I just don't see it. She and Marten aren't involved and she's basically one of the guys. Tova retracted it anyhow, just my 2-cents.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #133 on: 16 Jan 2012, 17:16 »

On the Padma thing, honestly she just strikes me as a bit of a flake that doesn't think before she speaks a lot of the time. I think it's really a matter of a combination of that and obliviousness to how her words can be taken.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #134 on: 16 Jan 2012, 18:04 »

I don't think that's unfair, Milesb, no. Faye is a pretty awful person. I can't remember the exact words, but didn't Mr. Jacques himself once say that if Faye existed in real life he wouldn't want anything to do with her?

I'm probably in the minority in here, because I'm enjoying the heck out of recent events. I don't like Marten :mrgreen:

http://jephjacques.com/post/4598863468/if-your-characters-were-real-people-who-would-you-get
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #135 on: 16 Jan 2012, 18:21 »


Oh, baloney.  Nobody has said anything even resembling that.  The "fierceness of the reaction" is because Faye's coming off like a heartless beast instead of a friend. 

Nicely stated. +1.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #136 on: 16 Jan 2012, 18:39 »

I'll just reiterate that the idea that Faye is coming off "like a heartless beast" is certainly a matter of opinion. Trying to justify a fierce reaction by generating another one is not very convincing, and in my opinion not so well stated. Other posters did a much better job of convincing me that I'd made an error.
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AnAverageWriter

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #137 on: 16 Jan 2012, 18:52 »

I'll just reiterate that the idea that Faye is coming off "like a heartless beast" is certainly a matter of opinion.

As are your tiresome attempts at painting Faye as some sort of saint, or her abuse as some sort of touching, poignant friendship effort.

I have to point out that the entire sum of the echo chamber here has been the stirring of a huge pot of "matters of opinions". Yours or mine are no greater or lesser than any others here; one muppet's voice carries the same weight as any others.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #138 on: 16 Jan 2012, 18:57 »

I never said she was a saint (she definitely isn't). Nor did I say or imply that my opinion is greater than anyone else's. I'm just stating mine. You're as welcome to yours as I'm welcome to disagree with it.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #139 on: 16 Jan 2012, 19:34 »

So - where to next?

Marten moves on!    - 5 (7.1%)
Deathmole!    - 5 (7.1%)
Coffee of Doom Shenanigans!    - 6 (8.6%)
Marigold Character Development!    - 9 (12.9%)
More AI Interaction!    - 0 (0%)
Hannelore Improves Herself!    - 4 (5.7%)
Minor Character Breakout!    - 5 (7.1%)
Steve and Cosette!    - 0 (0%)
Tai and Player to be Named Later!    - 1 (1.4%)
Raven!    - 2 (2.9%)
The parents horn in!    - 2 (2.9%)
TSB: Life after Padma!    - 3 (4.3%)
Waffles. It always goes back to waffles.    - 10 (14.3%)
Something COMPLETELY different!    - 18 (25.7%)

Total Voters: 70
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #140 on: 16 Jan 2012, 19:40 »

What makes you think the arc is over?  I'd say this could last at least the rest of the week.
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #141 on: 16 Jan 2012, 19:50 »

Just to be clear:
Padma- began having strong feelings for Marten.  Started avoiding him without explanation.  Called at the last minute before leaving town for good.  To talk about.. their impossible relationship?
Marten- had strong feelings for Padma, but thought it was a short term thing.  Was hurt and confused when she started avoiding him.  Chose not to have a last talk with her about... whatever. 
Faye-when her friend was trying to process through the end of his relationship, took the opportunity to tell him what he'd done wrong, in the harshest possible terms.

There is an asshole in this equation.
I'm pretty sure its not Marten.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #142 on: 16 Jan 2012, 19:58 »

Only one person brought up this whole 'asshole' thing, and I'm pretty sure that was Marten.

But just for the record, I don't think any of them are assholes.

edit: that poll was a tougher choice than usual.
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DSL

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #143 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:01 »

I still don't see why it's necessary for there to be a designated asshole. I see people (who for the most part clearly give a shit about one another) handling an emotional situation imperfectly, and responding with varying levels of impatience -- as one might expect from people still In the process of maturing.

But whatever. Fix the blame, not the problem.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #144 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:16 »

I still don't see why it's necessary for there to be a designated asshole.

Well, maybe they should have one of those alongside the designated driver next time they head down to the bar.  :lol:
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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #145 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:20 »

I would be curious to plot out whether there's a correlation between age range and those supporting marten for his actions and those against.

Petty game playing like what marten did seems to happen a lot more when you're younger whereas when (some) people get a little older, they start to realize that life's too short to be playing stupid games like that.

Anyway, great writing as usual - seems to have hit a nerve with a lot of people...

Definitely can sympathize with marten as I've done similar, stupid shit when I was around that age - of course, now I realize how stupid and petty I was when I was younger and definitely regret some of the connections I could have made - sexy-times or otherwise - due to all that emotional immaturity...

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #146 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:22 »

OK, here's a thought for all the "Marten did the right thing" folks. 

If it's right, why the bitter acrimony?  Why the self loathing?  Why does he feel like he was being an asshole (his  words, not Faye's)? 

He should have seen Padma one last time, to talk.  To say goodbye to a person who'd opened up to him.  To ask what had happened that she decided to step back.  I think her call to "hang out" was at least partly her wanting to talk, to explain, to seek some kind of resolution for/with this guy she'd inadvertantly hurt by her own bad choices.  To understand a potential friend a little better. 

It didn't need to be a roll in the hay, and maybe he wouldn't be feeling so much self loathing right now that he goes and gets Faye to metaphorically whack him upside the head (it really was self inflicted, if you think about it). 

To carry the metaphor someone started, he didn't need to try kicking the football again, OR to ignore it.  The football was never the issue.  he needed to have a heart-to-heart with Lucy.  It may not have worked out, but maybe he'd find out what the hell she was thinking, and not hate himself so much for his actions!

The self loathing and bitter acrimony could just be him internalizing the voices he's heard most of his life. I say this as a person who repeatedly hears "You're a failure" and "your family would be happier if you were hit by a bus" in his head on a semi constant basis. Healthy, no, but I know that such things do exist in my mind and Marten may also be someone who holds himself to very high personal standards. Please note that I am also not saying that Marten was in the right for what he did, I can understand why he did it, but it really wasn't a constructive setup. I said earlier that Marten was kind of in the land of 'no good outcomes' with that because no matter what happened unless he could avoid bringing up what was obviously a problem for him then  things were likely to go badly. He might have tried to 'kick the football' again but what would it have accomplished? He might have been able to end things well, but being human he'd also point out that she left him in the lurch and was avoiding him. Then, given what's already happened to Marten, we'd likely see him yelled at by her, saying that she's already got enough stress with her grandmother, Marten apologizing out of guilt, and the same problem, and again Faye and Dora yelling at him.

I'm not claiming Marten is a saint, but I am saying that post breakup the universe of QC seems to have turned against Marten in a few ways. As a reader it seems like Marten is frequently in no-win situations, when he finds happiness it gets taken rather viciously, when he does stand up to someone he gets yelled at. This doesn't absolve Marten of jerkish behavior. What he did to Padma was passive aggressive and jerkish, when he got drunk he deserved the Faye attack. But he has also endured a lot of abuse from people that are supposed to be his friends, friends that show a lot more sympathy and mutual aid when someone else in their group is hit similarly. Note that when Steve was  in a bad place Marten went to help him and try to get him through it, Steve just berates Marten.

As to the idea of Marten needing to take repsonsibility for his own feelings and the like, let's say that instead of 'I am busy' he had instead said something more direct, like challenging Padma on allegedly being so busy packing that she couldn't return a call. She was apparently looking at leaving early anyway (or at least earlier than her plan of 'stay extra week') so what was the purpose of the call. Maybe he could have said "That depends, is this you trying to get rid of any guilt you might feel about leaving me in the lurch or are you going to actually tell me what had you avoiding me?" Had he done that, he still probably would have felt guilty and get called out on it.  And if she was pissed due to his statement of what trying got him, let's consider what he actually meant, and what Faye would probably realize he meant (and before you claim that I'm demanding Faye be a mind reader, I'm not, this is more from what she has heard and seen from interactions with Marten) he lost his guitar, had someone he truly loved basically ditch him, and was nearly broke. We don't know how long he'd been in town but from what it looks like his only friend before Faye was Steve, and unless Steve really devolved I honestly can say that Marten might have some reasons to regret that trip. Even if a good thing did come out of it, it was more due to blind luck than that actual attempt. And as I pointed out, times he did try or assert himself, it tended to fail or backfire. If every time I stand up I get kicked in the shins eventually either my legs will break or I'll decide it isn't worth the trouble to get up again.

(and sorry for the big wall of text)
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Blackjoker

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #147 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:25 »

How else would you describe no fewer than five people (Faye, Dora, Elliot, Ms. Reed, Steve) all coming down on him like a ton of bricks over the past year or so?

It's a story; of course  teh drama makes a disproportionate appearance.  Each of those incidents probably lasted no more than a few minutes out of the couple of months that have passed.

Pattern recognition, in each time it occurred when Marten was at a low point and that was when the most vicious reactions against him occurred. And these were also from people who KNEW he was in a bad place. As for timetables, I admit the point but comic time is strange. a day can take 5 months to pass and a year can pass in a day.
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Armadillo

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #148 on: 16 Jan 2012, 20:32 »

I would be curious to plot out whether there's a correlation between age range and those supporting marten for his actions and those against.

Petty game playing like what marten did seems to happen a lot more when you're younger whereas when (some) people get a little older, they start to realize that life's too short to be playing stupid games like that.

Anyway, great writing as usual - seems to have hit a nerve with a lot of people...

Definitely can sympathize with marten as I've done similar, stupid shit when I was around that age - of course, now I realize how stupid and petty I was when I was younger and definitely regret some of the connections I could have made - sexy-times or otherwise - due to all that emotional immaturity...

Well, I'm 33 and married 10 years, so I don't know what that says about me.

I can't call what Marten did here "game playing."  To me, that's what a person does in order to test another person.  Marten honestly tried to contact Padma, and did so in good faith.  When she finally called back and revealed that she was leaving the next day, he blew her off.  That's not really a game, is it? 

As for designating an asshole, you can both care deeply for someone and be a complete asshat at the same time. 
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Carl-E

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Re: WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope
« Reply #149 on: 16 Jan 2012, 21:49 »

This afternoon, I was replying to someone's reply to amy last post.  I hit send, and had to run out the door.  Never saw the "There have been 2 replies..." message. 

So I get back a little while ago, and there's my message, unsent.  Just for a laugh, I hit send again...

67 new mwssages. 

Seriously, guys.  Two pages.  About nothing - round and round, the same arguments and postures. 

I'm joining Paul in waiting until tomorrow's comic.  Won't be long now...
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