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Poll

Get Me To The Church On Time...

...Marigold!
- 10 (11.2%)
...Claire!
- 38 (42.7%)
...Emily!
- 10 (11.2%)
...Tai?
- 2 (2.2%)
...PINTSIZE?!?!?
- 3 (3.4%)
...Harriet?!?!??!?!??!?!?
- 2 (2.2%)
...Someone Else?
- 8 (9%)
WAFFLES!
- 16 (18%)

Total Members Voted: 80


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Author Topic: WCDT: 2377-2381 (4-8 February, 2013) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 115549 times)

Lubricus

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It's not just getting Marten laid: she is getting grandbaby urges.

She's kind of missing her mark with Claire, then...  :evil:
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HiFranc

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She also missed the mark when she assumed that Claire was calm.
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Francisco

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This doesn't really have anything to do with ethics.

Sure it does. I'm saying it isn't immoral to fulfill such a desire.

Just because it's more complicated for me to eventually have a kid doesn't automatically mean I'd be a bad person for not adopting.

(Even if you believe the debunked overpopulation stuff: We're below replacement levels here; we're not the problem if there was one.)
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You'd think someone in her business would be a good psychologist.

Even with our world's technology, Ms. Reed could still have another child of her own without depending on Marten to produce a grandchild.
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If Marten can't keep his mom in check, he may end up having to find another ride home when Claire flees in embarrassment and terror. She looks about ready to do so now...

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WE ARE WORKING ON THAT TECHNOLOGY!



Does anyone else find it unethical to apply technology to procreation while there are still orphans in the world?

I doubt that the money that gets spent on that research would go to helping orphans get homes, it'd likely just go to something else along research lines.  I think its good helping those who are unable to have a child of their own to have that option, the more variety in the gene pool the better.  What we really need people to do is stop having so many kids per family.  Earth needs a couple billion fewer humans.  :-\ 
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Valdís

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Earth needs a couple billion fewer humans.  :-\

I would only ever agree with this sentiment if it meant we'd have a couple billion on off-world colonies.  :wink:
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westrim

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Even if you believe the debunked overpopulation stuff: We're below replacement levels here; we're not the problem if there was one.
That's because even with for place near the top of almost every measure of good places to live, you're still cold and dark for half the year. Elsewhere, people are cranking out kids at up to 3 times replacement level.

We'll probably reach a balance worldwide sometime in the next couple decades. Currently it's about 20 births/1000 population and 8 deaths/ 1000 population for the world, still double replacement level.

The real problem is there will be lots of old people around and cluttering up space until they finally die off. Western nation will clear out the deadwood (pun slightly intended) in about 30 years, and China in 50 thanks to their one child policy, but many countries won't get over their bubbles for 60-80 years depending on when their peak was.

But to directly address your beliefs, overpopulation is hardly debunked, there are just lots of variables, some of them unknown and some of them estimates, and different estimates naturally give different results. Overpopulation is a matter of how many resources each person uses, not how many people there are, ultimately. It's simply not possible on water resources level for everyone to live like Americans, or even Swedes, in the places everyone is now, for example.
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 00:28 by Westrim »
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ukrayf

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This doesn't really have anything to do with ethics.

Sure it does. I'm saying it isn't immoral to fulfill such a desire.

Just because it's more complicated for me to eventually have a kid doesn't automatically mean I'd be a bad person for not adopting.

(Even if you believe the debunked overpopulation stuff: We're below replacement levels here; we're not the problem if there was one.)

I'd basically agree with the sentiment, but base biological urges do not moral argument make.

Not even gonna touch that last sentence, sheesh.
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Shogouki

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Earth needs a couple billion fewer humans.  :-\

I would only ever agree with this sentiment if it meant we'd have a couple billion on off-world colonies.  :wink:

Well I certainly didn't mean killing them off, simply for humanity to reduce our population by having fewer children until we get to a healthy population level that isn't consuming more than Earth can handle. 

I grew up with ST:TNG and the idea of humans colonizing other worlds was an incredible dream of mine.  Now I'm not certain we'll make it another few centuries...  :cry:
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I guess Marten's mom is being what we call a Shipper On Deck.
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Now I'm not certain we'll make it another few centuries...  :cry:

I suppose it depends on what's more easily accomplished: humans not procreating like, well, animals, or humans not trashing the only home we've got so far.
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westrim

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I guess Marten's mom is being what we call a Shipper On Deck.
Does that mean Marten just told her to SOD off?  :-P

I suppose it depends on what's more easily accomplished: humans not procreating like, well, animals, or humans not trashing the only home we've got so far.
It's fine for us to procreate like animals so long as we die like animals, but people had a problem with that.
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Shogouki

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I guess Marten's mom is being what we call a Shipper On Deck.
Does that mean Marten just told her to SOD off?  :-P

I suppose it depends on what's more easily accomplished: humans not procreating like, well, animals, or humans not trashing the only home we've got so far.
It's fine for us to procreate like animals so long as we die like animals, but people had a problem with that.

Good thing he's her son, otherwise that might come with insubordination charges...  :police:
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Valdís

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I'd basically agree with the sentiment, but base biological urges do not moral argument make.

Not even gonna touch that last sentence, sheesh.

Neither does not making arguments and calling breeders immoral. Also I think you'll find that disregarding human nature when setting up your systems of what is "immoral" never ends well.

"Sheesh"? It's not my fault that people still believe Malthusian nonsense from the early 1800s. Also even if it was correct that doesn't change the fact that we have nothing to do with it. Below replacement levels, among the cleanest countries in the world, recycle our materials to the point of needing to ship in more trash from our neighbours.
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 00:51 by Valdís »
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Jeph was probably right to change it if that's what he was worried people would think (re: his tumblr post). My first thought when she was talking about kids was "well, shit, this is awkward, because it's just reminding Claire that she can't have them.
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I guess Marten's mom is being what we call a Shipper On Deck.

I did consider that possibility earlier on but the TV Tropes page makes it clear that it only applies if there's something to be shipped.  I doubt that's the case with Marten and Claire so I don't think the term applies.
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Francisco

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Jeph was probably right to change it if that's what he was worried people would think (re: his tumblr post). My first thought when she was talking about kids was "well, shit, this is awkward, because it's just reminding Claire that she can't have them.

Yeah, it's what was going through my head too. At least not with her partner, given that she's straight (or at least from what we've seen). I'd still be interested in seeing the alternative one, though.
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ukrayf

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Well, that was my exact first thought too, and I'm sure it was for most readers, so he was probably right to change it. While I wasn't really offended by it, I thought it was an insane joke, really, just with all the levels of subtext and Claire's poor expression. I had a brief moment of uneasiness when I felt that he might spend the whole arc making Claire's gender identity the butt of every joke. That would be awful.
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westrim

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"Sheesh"? It's not my fault that people still believe Malthusian nonsense from the early 1800s. Also even if it was correct that doesn't change the fact that we have nothing to do with it. Below replacement levels, among the cleanest countries in the world, recycle our materials to the point of needing to ship in more trash from our neighbours.
It absolutely is your fault when you extrapolate from a nation of 9 1/2 million to a world of 7 billion, which had about 110 less Swedens 12 years ago.
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Valdís

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But to directly address your beliefs, overpopulation is hardly debunked, there are just lots of variables /.../ Overpopulation is a matter of how many resources each person uses, not how many people there are, ultimately.

Variables which show.. that it was completely wrong. The predictions back then were wrong in almost every regard and efficiency+production more than outpace the population growth on a consistent basis. It simply isn't the world-ending problem people like to pretend it is. Plenty of the 'limited resources' we use today didn't even exist back then (and the ones he predicted catastrophe for actually got better), just as we'll move on to better alternatives in the future.

It absolutely is your fault when you extrapolate from a nation of 9 1/2 million to a world of 7 billion, which had about 110 less Swedens 12 years ago.

So your point is "Ban Valdís from having kids to worry less about the undeveloped world having too many"? Why should I "Extrapolate" at all to places which have nothing in common? Especially when all such extrapolations are inevitably wrong and always have been in the past.
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westrim

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So your point is "Ban Valdís from having kids to worry less about the undeveloped world having too many"? Why should I "Extrapolate" at all to places which have nothing in common? Especially when all such extrapolations are inevitably wrong and always have been in the past.
..I'm sorry, at what point did I say "you shouldn't have kids?" I only rebutted your views on world overpopulation and their apparent connection your own nation's lack of that issue (since you kept saying "it's not happening, and my country has the opposite issue").

And you're as wrong as someone can be from a hindsight perspective. We managed to avert the worst case scenarios, but that in no way means they weren't possibilities, it just means we actually managed to work to avoid them, be it by tens of billions funneled into the green revolution or tens of thousands of volunteers doing family planning. Right now we're shooting for the lower end of the UN projections from the late 90s, but a lot of work went into making that happen.

I want to say a lot more, but I really should cut it short for sleep and not clogging up the thread with non-comic discussion reasons.
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 01:46 by Westrim »
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Valdís

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..I'm sorry, at what point did I say "you shouldn't have kids?" I only rebutted your views on world overpopulation and their apparent basis in your own nation's lack of that issue.

The thing I was responding to originally specifically singled out people who need technology to do so, as if they have less of a right to it than others. I also based nothing in my own nation, I specifically said that "This is wrong, and even if it was right it isn't an issue for us.".

We managed to avert the worst case scenarios, but that in no way means they weren't possibilities, it just means we actually managed to work to avoid them, be it by tens of billions funneled into the green revolution or tens of thousands of volunteers doing family planning. Right now we're shooting for the lower end of the UN projections from the late 90s, but a lot of work went into making that happen.

Which has nothing to do with Malthusian overpopulation catastrophes. What, you think that I think that the efficiency+production more than keeping up with growth just happened magically? Of course we wouldn't be able to support the current population if we still had the agriculture of the year 1800, but that's an insane assertion to start with. You can't presume it'll stay exactly the same as when he wrote it. His assertion was that population will grow exponentially, where as efficiency+production would grow arithmetically. He was objectively wrong in every regard.

But yeah, quite off-topic. I stand by it not being immoral to use technology relating to having kids, though.  :-P
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Good for Jeph for rewriting the comic when he didn't feel comfortable with it. Creator's got a right to change their story however they see fit, IMO.

Who... Wha.... GRONK.

Ah. That was... a random act of kindness. It wasn't necessary, but it was compassionate.
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There is a thread on the subject of "Global limits for population and economic growth" in the Discuss section of the forum.

I suspect Marten's Mum was just winding him up. She's seemed to make a habit of it in her last couple of appearances.
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Loki

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So, uhm, for the latecomers, what exactly did Jeph change? Did he just remove a "perfect breeding age" line that was there before?
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ZoeB

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But yeah, quite off-topic. I stand by it not being immoral to use technology relating to having kids, though.  :-P
Thank you.

FWIW... we required significant technical assistance to have our son. Both his parents are biologically female after all.

Had we known in 2000 that I wasn't a moderately Intersex male, but a severely Intersex female, I don't think we would have made the attempt. My male glands were only partially functional rather than completely nonfunctional for a few years of my life anyway. I'd been told at age 20 that the odds of me ever having children were at best 1 in 100. In fact, we now know that it was rather more remote than that.
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ukrayf

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Yeah, I mean, it was kind for Claire. I'm kind of split on whether it's offensive generally.

It's just maybe slightly uncomfortable on several levels that Marten's mom would be made broody at a gay wedding and would unload this on Maten's trans friend. I mean, wat.

Also, Claire apparently passes extremely well.
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Yeah, I mean, it was kind for Claire.
Kind for a lot of clucky Trans women - some of whom are Marten's Mom's age, others in their teens.
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Valdís

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Thank you.

FWIW... we required significant technical assistance to have our son.

Well, it isn't necessarily all that altruistic given that odds are I'll be infertile when it's an issue for me. :-D
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So, uhm, for the latecomers, what exactly did Jeph change?

*asks the same thing*
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Sorry I didn't mean to derail the thread...   :oops:
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Uh, as far as I can tell, he changed the punchline because he felt that Claire being trans* could be interpreted as being the joke. Which was not his intention, but there you go.

Also, for what it's worth, Mrs. Reed was really kinda depressed in the original, which did NOT match up well with her facial expression (which remains unchanged).
I kinda like this version better anyway.
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 Claire looks so cute in this strip (and like a defenseless puppy in the first panel).

 Also...
 
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 04:29 by K1dmor »
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Lubricus

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Uh, as far as I can tell, he changed the punchline because he felt that Claire being trans* could be interpreted as being the joke. Which was not his intention, but there you go.

Also, for what it's worth, Mrs. Reed was really kinda depressed in the original, which did NOT match up well with her facial expression (which remains unchanged).
I kinda like this version better anyway.

I agree, but I'm still glad I read the original version as well. Even if it's no longer "canon", it says quite a bit about Marten's mother.

One thing that got to me today was that Marten always seems unprepared for his mother's explosive ways of embarassing him. Does that mean it is a fairly recent thing? As in, before the timeline of the comic, I mean.
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*cough* I still feel out of the loop   :oops: What did it say before Jeph changed it?
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Uh, as far as I can tell, he changed the punchline because he felt that Claire being trans* could be interpreted as being the joke. Which was not his intention, but there you go.
Uuuuh, yeah. This was basically what I read a few posts ago.  :roll:
I wanted to know exactly what happened in the original version...
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 03:55 by Mr. Doctor »
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Adjamemnon

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*cough* I still feel out of the loop   :oops: What did it say before Jeph changed it?

I can't tell you exactly, but it went something like:

First replaced panel: My son is ready for some stability in his life.  I think he's ready for grandchildren.
Next replaced panel:  And with his beautiful eyes and your gorgeous hair, your children would be...

And the last panel was pretty much the same, iirc.

I'm afraid that will have to do until someone finds a cached copy.
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There being no alt strip for the comic, but having read the blog post, I'm going to guess thusly:

Mrs Reid, having just met Claire, starts talking about pairing them together for some baby-making. With Claire having only telling Marten about being trans*, I can see where the gag would have gone sour fast (and possibly exploding here, and on his Twitter and Tumblr pages).

It's like what I emailed to him when he did do the big reveal with Claire. Particularly:

Quote from: the email
I love that you're giving these issues* some serious light, not just bit parts, and taking some serious pains over not stuffing it up. It really shows that you're a decent human being who truly believes in equal human rights. It'd be nice if there were more people like that...

I don't think you'll be one to stuff it up, at least not intentionally. Your characters have a pretty great dynamic together, even with their problems, flaws and mannerisms, but I also know that your characters are only human (metaphorically speaking), and there often is no accounting for human error. I'm sure you'll do your best, though.
* as a note, I'm referring to the whole LGBT deal

I guess in his position, with what I interpret to be Jephs' beliefs (approximated from his comic and his blog), he's got to find a way to have fun with (and make fun of) his characters, without coming across as being bigoted or at least showing ill intentions towards serious issues. And for that, I applaud him.

On comic: Mothers really know how to embarrass their offspring (at least she didn't bring out the the pictures... yet  :evil:)
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*cough* I still feel out of the loop   :oops: What did it say before Jeph changed it?

I can't tell you exactly, but it went something like:

First replaced panel: My son is ready for some stability in his life.  I think he's ready for grandchildren.
Next replaced panel:  And with his beautiful eyes and your gorgeous hair, your children would be...

And the last panel was pretty much the same, iirc.

I'm afraid that will have to do until someone finds a cached copy.

Every panel but the first was changed. Most notably perhaps was the last, because the original made it much more obvious Marten's mother is NOT particularly happy about the wedding. It wouldn't have fit as well with the rest of the rewritten comic, however, hence why it was changed too. I don't think it was Jeph also changing his mind about Marten's mother's thoughts.

The original middle two had Marten's mother not to subtlety hinting that Marten and Claire should get together and have children, and that with "your colour hair and his eyes" the babies would be adorable.
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Valdís

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I guess in his position, with what I interpret to be Jephs' beliefs (approximated from his comic and his blog), he's got to find a way to have fun with (and make fun of) his characters, without coming across as being bigoted or at least showing ill intentions towards serious issues.

Oh, certainly wasn't thinking that at all. Just that if it's a punchline then it's more of a depressing strip for some, not an indictment of Jeph. It's just a fact of life that certainly has its place, too. Especially if it was setting it up as a poor experience for Claire.
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By the by, I was hoping Marten would have to catch a ride with Pizza Girl.
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On comic: Mothers really know how to embarrass their offspring (at least she didn't bring out the the pictures... yet  :evil:)

They do it deliberately. It's revenge for all times the kid embarrassed them by having a tantrum at the supermaket checkout.
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HEY GUYS. I JUST REALIZED.
The original stream is still available on Twitch.tv.

Original text preserved here for preservation's sake:

(click to show/hide)

Once again, I say good decision changing it.
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2013, 05:31 by WAYF »
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I can't wait for tomorrow's awkward "You're really nice but I'm not your type" speech. I'm just not sure whose mouth it will come out of. Heeheehee...
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I honestly have a feeling nothing is going to happen between Claire and Marten. Claire's nice and all but Marten has already made it quite clear finding out someone's used to be a dude would shatter his mind if he slept with them.
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 It was discussed already. Is the shock(?) of finding out AFTER he slept with him (whoever it was).
That's about that strip, i won't say anything about Claire that could be considered as shipping.
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DSL

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Jeph's grown a bit, and Marten has developed as a character, since that strip.
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"We are who we pretend to be. So we had better be careful who we pretend to be."  -- Kurt Vonnegut.

Lubricus

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Yeah, I don't think Marten's comment from that strip is very relevant to his (eventual) feelings for Claire. Not that I think anything will happen with those two.
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cesium133

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I can't wait for tomorrow's awkward "You're really nice but I'm not your type" speech. I'm just not sure whose mouth it will come out of. Heeheehee...
I'm thinking it has to be Claire that says it... Marten rejecting Claire would probably be too easy for people to take the wrong way. Besides, we know that Steve is more Claire's type.
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The nerdy comic I update sometimes: Cesium Comics

Unofficial character tag thingy for QC
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