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Author Topic: Gunsmithing (no politics)  (Read 103732 times)

Noxx

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #200 on: 22 Aug 2014, 21:53 »

Guess you might need to reevaluate your caliber choice.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/12/01/the-700-wtf-for-hunting-dinosaurs/
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #201 on: 22 Aug 2014, 22:08 »

Not an option for me sadly.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #202 on: 22 Aug 2014, 22:51 »

.700 WTF ??

sounds cool. put some nice wood around it.
and I still counldn't afford it.  :D
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #203 on: 23 Aug 2014, 08:20 »

I wonder if anyone's designed a gun with a caliber of 1 or greater. My little research only found the .950 JDJ which is a little frustrating. Why not go that extra mm and change?

Also, holy shit, a single .950 JDJ round weighs half a pound.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #204 on: 23 Aug 2014, 08:29 »

A 2 bore rifle has a bigger slug by about 1000 grains... not sure what it's dimensions are though... I seem to recall 4 bore rifles being 1 caliber.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #205 on: 23 Aug 2014, 09:27 »

You can't fire the jdj pffhand
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #206 on: 23 Aug 2014, 09:42 »

Noxx, I was still waiting to hear more about the .375 H&H
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #207 on: 23 Aug 2014, 13:28 »

I wonder if anyone's designed a gun with a caliber of 1 or greater. My little research only found the .950 JDJ which is a little frustrating. Why not go that extra mm and change?

Also, holy shit, a single .950 JDJ round weighs half a pound.

take a 'gander' of a PUNT GUN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #208 on: 24 Aug 2014, 09:37 »


Noxx, I was still waiting to hear more about the .375 H&H

Sorry, I was out fishing off the coast, just now seeing your post.

My personal fondness for the 375 most stems from its great balance between power and shootability. Placed right, it'll kill anything on earth, and it's "relatively" mild to shoot, meaning it's easy to get accurate placement quickly. Because its an "all around" cartridge, you're free to spend a lot more on a platform.

Oh hell tagging for edit. I'm not typing all this on my phone in the bog. Brb.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #209 on: 24 Aug 2014, 09:43 »

Hmmm. I do like an all arounder, though I think it detracts a bit from my stated intent of making a dangerous game rifle. Now Larry at Midway obviously disagrees, and hunts all of Africa, dangerous game and plains game with his .375 H&H Mag, but there's something about a field artillery piece disguised as a shoulder fired rifle...

Decisions decisions....
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #210 on: 24 Aug 2014, 09:55 »

Hmmm. I do like an all arounder, though I think it detracts a bit from my stated intent of making a dangerous game rifle. Now Larry at Midway obviously disagrees, and hunts all of Africa, dangerous game and plains game with his .375 H&H Mag, but there's something about a field artillery piece disguised as a shoulder fired rifle...

Decisions decisions....

eh, I'll just finish here.

Don't be misled by the .375's more friendly characteristics. It is absolutely a dangerous game rifle, and that was the intent at it's design. Guys like Capstick and Karamojo Bell knocked down plenty of unfriendly fauna with them. The appeal is that you can also take one on a deer hunt and not require orthopedic surgery. More importantly really, is that it'll shoot in a very narrow range with all manner of bullet weights, where the larger bores start to vary dramatically, and you have to either pick a favorite weight and always use it, or take a lot of care to remember what you're loaded with before squeezing it off.

All of that is immaterial tho if you want to have a safari rifle just for the sake of having a safari rifle. Let's be realistic, as North Americans, the biggest scariest things we have going are Elk and Bear, and while either will settle your bill in short order, you don't need a howitzer to knock 'em down. Frankly you can drop anything on our continent with a Mosin. Given that, if it's a mostly "neat to have" thing, yeah by all means build an insane cannon of a rifle, just don't plan on toting all day

edit- if you get the chance to find a local with one, see if you can fire it before you commit to a caliber. A lot of people reevaluate after their first concussion induced nosebleed LOL
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #211 on: 24 Aug 2014, 10:36 »

That's a fair enough point, though a local has confirmed you can hunt elk with a .458. It'll bisect the thing, but you can do it. I like .50 BMG rifles despite generally being too poor to afford one and haven't had an issue shooting them. I do want to hunt Africa one day, though as goals go it's on a subsection of bucket list labeled "This Would Be Cool, but only once everything else is done and you have a ton of money left over somehow"

Also Noxx, if you think Elk or Bear are the scariest things on the North American continent I need to take you to Alaska and introduce you to the god's own hate tank, moose, and the Alaskan bear variants of course, which are where the term "pain train" comes from, because you're either in dead or in pain, and in experienced coroner will think you got hit by a freight train at high speeds.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #212 on: 24 Aug 2014, 15:29 »

I dunno why Moose didn't pop into my head, but yeah, same point tho
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #213 on: 24 Aug 2014, 18:29 »


The GP100 family is superior to anything S&W has ever built and I will defend that statement to the death.  I really want a Bowen GP-44 in .45 Colt with a 4" barrel.  The P-series is really nice too, I loved shooting the P89.

You have clearly suffered a blow to the head. The Smith 686 is the finest revolver ever made by man.

you are clearly going senile.
the RUGER Sec6 is clearly one of the top three revolvers ever made.
The S&W 65 is superior in smooth trigger pull, but lacks in robustness.
and the RUGER GP100 is (im told) a perfect hybrid of the two.

but I'd put the S&W 686 in the top 5.

Almost every hand-ejector revolver I've ever handled that had more than a couple thousand rounds through it, regardless of how carefully it was handled, had a huge amount of slop between the yoke/crane and the frame.  This causes timing and alignment issues, which are bad juju.  This is my number one pet peeve with revolvers.

Putting a detent at the very front end of the ejector rod doesn't cut it, you have to lock the yoke to the frame directly.  A lot of manufacturers are taking the easy way out now by putting a ball detent somewhere on the yoke, as in the Smith X-frames, but that doesn't release when you press the cylinder release tab.  That means having to apply more force to pop the cylinder out, potentially warping the yoke like the dumbasses that flip their revolvers open/closed with their wrist.  The dimple in the frame is also more likely to wear out that way.

Most hand-ejectors only lock at the rear of the cylinder and the front of the ejector rod, as with nearly all S&W and Taurus revolvers, sometimes with a yoke ball detent either custom installed or from the factory.  Colt revolvers lock only at the rear of the cylinder which is even shittier.  The S&W X-frame and Ghisoni's youngest grandchild, the Chiappa Rhino, lock only at the rear of the cylinder and have a ball detent on the yoke/crane.  Even the Ruger Security Six series and the coveted German Korth revolvers (for those with more dollars than sense) use the ejector rod lockup like a standard S&W.  Most Dan Wesson revolvers lock only on the yoke, with the release in front of the cylinder.

Only two revolver families have been made with positive mechanical locks at both the rear of the cylinder and on the yoke/crane.  One is the S&W .44 Hand Ejector First Model New Century, aka the Triple-Lock, the first N-frame Smith; .44 Special, won't handle +P loads, and commands ridiculous collector prices these days.  Only made from 1908 to 1915, after which S&W buried the Triple-Lock mechanism forever more (because at the time no one wanted to pay more for the complex mechanism.)  The other is every Ruger hand-ejector from the Redhawk onward.*  The Redhawk cylinder design holds the cylinder on the crane barrel using a pair of ball bearings rather than simply trapping the cylinder between crane and a tab on the frame, and the ejector rod is non-rotating.  The GP100 is the result of applying the Redhawk cylinder system to the Security Six frame, along with a Dan Wesson style spike grip frame, and a redesign of the trigger pack to make fine-tuning easier and reduce the occurrence of light-strike missfires compared to the Security Six/Redhawk trigger design.  (The Security Six and Redhawk used a single spring as both the mainspring and trigger spring - this turned out to be not a great idea, and the GP100 uses two separate springs.)  S&W revolvers, especially Performance Center offerings, tend to have better triggers out of the factory, but any GP-family Ruger can be hand-tuned to be just as nice as any S&W.

Ruger revolvers have also always been a bit overbuilt compared to other options; the SP-101 (five-shot .357, six-shot .32, eight-shot .22) is somewhere in between a J-frame and a K-frame, the GP100 (six-shot .357, seven-shot .32) is somewhere in between an L-frame and an N-frame, and the Redhawk/Super Redhawk (six-shot .44 or .475) is not an N-frame analogue so much as it is a shortened X-frame analogue before the X-frame was even a thing.  Being so overbuilt makes them a bit heavier on the draw than a comparable S&W but in return they are much more resistant to abuse and have more options for rechambering.  Bowen Classic Arms regularly converts Redhawks to five-shot .500 Linebaugh platforms with no problem.  The old six-shot .357 Magnum Redhawk (no really, this is a thing) has about the thickest cylinder walls I have ever seen and is considered a handloader's paradise.

The cherry on top of all of this is that S&W and Colt say, more or less, "Keep your plebian hands out of the inner workings of your our gun, don't even try to open the frame or you'll just wreck it.  Be a good little child and bring it in to a company-trained armorer for fine tuning or repair."  Whilst Ruger has said since the Security Six days, "Here, have a revolver that breaks down for maintenance about the same way as an SKS rifle."

Smiths are okay, but if I'm going to spend money on a revolver, it's going to be a Ruger, full stop.  My only complaint is that they haven't built a Redhawk-size revolver with the GP/Super Redhawk grip and trigger but the classic Redhawk style frame/barrel, as the Super Redhawk bull-nose frame is kind of ungainly.  Fortunately, as I linked to before, Bowen has started modifying Super Redhawk Alaskans into exactly this.  As a five-shot .500 Linebaugh it's only slightly less powerful than a .500 Magnum while being much handier and less obnoxiously huge.

*I'm not counting the LCR in this statement.

::deep breaths::

...right then.  For no particular reason, I want to rebarrel a Ruger No.1 falling block for .577 Snider.  Just because.  I think it'd be a fun boulder-thrower to shoot and reload for without being as, um... belligerent as a .577 Nitro Express.  Contrary to popular belief I am not a recoil junky.
« Last Edit: 25 Aug 2014, 01:41 by Caspian Sea Monster »
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Noxx

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #214 on: 24 Aug 2014, 20:36 »

I have passed my trebuchet rifle phase, and am working on becoming a velocity junky.

Nice write up btw.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #215 on: 24 Aug 2014, 21:17 »

I like trebuchet rifles AND I like velocity... grrr


Decisions decisions. The receivers I've purchased can more then handle either round, hmmm... bout a month left to decide one way or another.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #216 on: 25 Aug 2014, 01:46 »

I like trebuchet rifles AND I like velocity... grrr

That's what the PTRS-41 is for.  14.5x114mm, or as I prefer to call it, .577 Degtyarov Express.

All .577 cartridges are actually .585 caliber, but .577 has a nice ring to it.

Nice write up btw.

Thank you.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #217 on: 25 Aug 2014, 02:04 »

I would bet a PTRS-41 costs more then a brand new Barrett WITH Leupold glass.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #218 on: 25 Aug 2014, 21:02 »

CSM: great read.
thanks for the back up.
I've carried my P89DC for duty from 1994-2003.
Never, ever worried about its functionality.
I've even taken it to the range and did the whole "drop them in a mud puddle & see whose jams LAST"
my P89 drank  the milkshakes of S&W, Glock, Taurus, SigSauer and Beretta.




*the Colt 1911 was given pass on this test out of pure respect. (and it was the Chief's sidearm)
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #219 on: 25 Aug 2014, 21:20 »

Berettas jam fresh out of the box. So is that really surprising?
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #220 on: 25 Aug 2014, 21:23 »

...as I tend to avoid them like ebola, I hadn't noticed.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #221 on: 25 Aug 2014, 22:11 »

That's not fair. The Beretta is a perfectly serviceable hand grenade.

“You’re not a S.E.A.L. ‘till you have eaten Italian steel…” Anonymous
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #222 on: 25 Aug 2014, 22:13 »

Am I the seriously only person who has had a positive experience with the M9?  With several 92-series pistols actually...
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #223 on: 26 Aug 2014, 09:17 »

Yes. I'm more likely to believe in unicorns and pegasus then I am in a Beretta 92 series handgun that functions better then a Kahr.
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Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #224 on: 26 Aug 2014, 09:45 »

Am I the seriously only person who has had a positive experience with the M9?  With several 92-series pistols actually...

You might be, I've had nothing but trouble with them since I was old enough to shoot one.

Most of my life I've done best with Sig P220's and the venerable 1911

The P98 might be as reliable as the dawn, but I'll never know, as soon as I pick one up I put it right down. My hands just don't like em.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #225 on: 26 Aug 2014, 11:56 »

All three 92F/FSs I've fired ran flawlessly right out of the box.  I also found them pleasant to shoot, though I still like the Ruger P85/89 better.  Then everybody likes to bring up the slide breakage thing, neglecting that that happened on a badly abused 92 with a VERY high round count and after swallowing a lot of +P ammo, which it is not rated for.  (Neither is the BHP, so I don't see that as a big deal.)

ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #226 on: 26 Aug 2014, 13:10 »

I should point out that while the autos I've listed have always done well, my carry gun that I rely on to absolutely never fail no matter what, is a Smith 642
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #227 on: 26 Aug 2014, 18:34 »

ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
You believe wrong. It's pegasi. -us becomes -i*, so only -ius becomes -ii.

*Sometimes -us becomes -uses, like viruses. Most -us nouns are 2nd declension. Latin has five declensions, but fourth and fifth declension nouns are much less common. Virus is a fourth declension noun.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #228 on: 26 Aug 2014, 20:44 »

I've fired P85s... they FEEL like the prototypes they are.
My P89 and its variant brothers are just Kalashinkov-style rugged simple.

As for Sigs. they're ok... but I dislike the magazine release safety.
Smith 642.  Airweight/snubby?
good gun.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #229 on: 26 Aug 2014, 21:23 »

ETA: I believe the plural of pegasus is pegasii.
You believe wrong. It's pegasi. -us becomes -i*, so only -ius becomes -ii.

*Sometimes -us becomes -uses, like viruses. Most -us nouns are 2nd declension. Latin has five declensions, but fourth and fifth declension nouns are much less common. Virus is a fourth declension noun.

The plural of virus isn't virii?  I've been lied to all these years... I don't even know what to believe anymore!   :psyduck:
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #230 on: 26 Aug 2014, 21:40 »

Why would it be virii? Viri, maybe, but virii makes no sense!
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #231 on: 27 Aug 2014, 04:35 »

Because I always thought -us pluralized to -ii.  I am no expert on Latin and most of what I "know" is probably the result of hearsay.  Then again, for me, that seems to apply to most things that aren't guns.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #232 on: 27 Aug 2014, 13:24 »

No worries, I was a classics major and it rarely comes in handy :roll:

Btw, -is pluralizes to -es. So using Latin the plural of penis would be penes.
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Noxx

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #233 on: 29 Aug 2014, 06:37 »

Pretty well decided that my next pistol project is a 1911 in .460 Rowland.  Sure, you don't really need 460, but think of having one sidearm than can eat 4 calibers, 45acp, 45 super, 451D, and 460.
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Caspian Sea Monster

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #234 on: 29 Aug 2014, 11:22 »

+10 points for familiarity with the .451 Detonics.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #235 on: 29 Aug 2014, 12:17 »

How stupid would I be to do a 1911 Long Slide in .454 Casull?
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #236 on: 29 Aug 2014, 14:21 »

You could probably do it on an LAR Grizzly .50 AE frame.  I won't comment on the stupidity, but the entire concept of a .454 Casull autoloader makes me gag because it has been run into the ground by Hellsing fanboys.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #237 on: 29 Aug 2014, 14:29 »

*wince* That's a fair point.

I like that round too T_T
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Caspian Sea Monster

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #238 on: 29 Aug 2014, 15:07 »

Stuff it into a Wildey instead; I think the fundamentally different profile will ease that pain.  Not to mention the benefit of a manually adjustable gas system when you're dealing with such an esoteric and somewhat experimental project.
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Noxx

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #239 on: 29 Aug 2014, 15:18 »

If you're just chasing the biggest hole, pretty sure they're still making .50 GI
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Akima

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #240 on: 29 Aug 2014, 16:25 »

Dropping the lurk-cloak... Speaking of wrist-breakers, a little while ago I was googling research for a hard-SF story* that I'm sporadically working on, and found this. A twelve-bore that's only 420mm long...

*My idea is that shotguns would be less likely to puncture pressurised environments than weapons firing higher-velocity projectiles. Was I inspired by the movie "Outland"? Maaaybe...
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Caspian Sea Monster

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #241 on: 29 Aug 2014, 16:39 »

Yep, that's a thing.  A worrying number of my friends want them, I find them just too ridiculous.  I momentarily considered getting the 20 gauge version but honestly I'd rather have a Denny's Auto & Burglar (also 20 gauge.)

And yes, that's a valid consideration.  See also: Powdered metal bullets that disintegrate on impact with hard surfaces.

Noxx: It has nothing to do with making the biggest hole, or even hitting the hardest.  It has to do with building a .454 Casull autoloader because we can.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #242 on: 29 Aug 2014, 16:56 »

CSM is correct if I just wanted to hit hard, I can buy a semi-auto M2.

That super shorty's cute Akima, basically an Ithaca Stakeout. For gunfights in pressurized environments I'd look into training data for U.S. Air Marshals if you can find any. I believe they carry handguns with downloaded ammunition.
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Akima

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #243 on: 29 Aug 2014, 17:35 »

I momentarily considered getting the 20 gauge version but honestly I'd rather have a Denny's Auto & Burglar (also 20 gauge.)
That super-short pump-action can only hold three cartridges; two in the magazine and one in the chamber (which would leave the weapon cocked and relying in a safety-catch, wouldn't it?) so I too thought about whether a traditional double-barrel would be simpler (and with external hammers safer?). Operating and reloading in heavy gloves might be a consideration too.

It has to do with building a .454 Casull autoloader because we can.
This is an impulse I understand fully. Yes, I did get some practical advantages out of putting a fancy internal-gear hub in my bicycle, but mainly I did it because I could. Yes, the cost of the hub would have bought an entire, perfectly satisfactory bicycle, and I could have obtained much the same gear range more cheaply, but I did it because I wanted to.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #244 on: 29 Aug 2014, 22:08 »

for my sci-fi writing, one of my characters carries on his Mecha, a double bronzed barrelled 70mm shotgun.
The 70mm shotshell contains fifteen, 27mm, pellets; which are great for close range infantry swarms or hover tanks.

I figured it is in rough scale to me carrying around a 10ga. shotgun.

*you're free to use the idea*

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Caspian Sea Monster

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #245 on: 30 Aug 2014, 01:39 »

That super-short pump-action can only hold three cartridges; two in the magazine and one in the chamber (which would leave the weapon cocked and relying in a safety-catch, wouldn't it?) so I too thought about whether a traditional double-barrel would be simpler (and with external hammers safer?). Operating and reloading in heavy gloves might be a consideration too.

Sort of a complicated question, but I'm going with no.  Plenty of people in all walks of gun-toting-for-business life carry rifles and shotguns and 1911s with the chamber loaded and the safety on.  The thing about external hammers is that if you cock it, and then change your mind about shooting and decide you don't want it cocked anymore, you have to hold the hammer back with your thumb, pull the trigger, and slowly lower the hammer to the decocked (or half-cocked) position.  If your thumb slips, well...

The gun community as a whole is very divided on whether or not this is acceptable behavior.  Personally I fall squarely into the camp that does not approve, on the logic that it's a violation of basic safety rules to pull the trigger on a loaded gun without intention to fire it.  A single-action semiautomatic firearm should - in my belief - never be decocked on a loaded chamber, since there's generally no way to get a round into the chamber without cocking the gun, and there's no way to decock the gun without pulling the trigger - therefor if the gun is in that state, you violated the rules to get it into that state.  Unfortunately it's pretty much unavoidable with revolvers.

Also, whether or not it's really safe to have the hammer down on a loaded chamber - as in, like, drop-safe - varies a lot from gun to gun; older designs are usually more drop-induced slamfire prone than newer designs.  Of course, most newer designs are either double-action (as a refresher: meaning you can pull the trigger to fire the gun even if the hammer is decocked) and have safe-decocking levers to lower the hammer without pulling the trigger - ie without disabling the internal hammer block and firing pin lock safeties - or are double-action only, the firing mechanism never being cocked until you pull the trigger.

Autoloading rifles and pump shotguns are near-universally single-action with the hammers hidden inside the gun, so there's no way to decock them anyway, and you keep the safety on if the chamber is loaded (condition 1.)  Some people aren't comfortable with this and, under the logic that the more work you have to put into readying the gun to fire the safer it is, leave the chamber unloaded (condition 3.)  Something you need to take into consideration with this is, if a threat arises, how urgently will you need the gun ready - ie, will you have enough time to cycle the action to chamber a round, or do you only expect to have enough time to take the safety off (or cock the hammer, as it were)?

::deep breaths::

As for the double barrel vs. the Serbu snubnose pump, well... I guess I'll do it like this:

Sawed-Off Double Barrel
Pros:
• If "hammerless" (actually has hidden internal hammers,) It can be readied to fire both shots one-handed*
• If hammered, can be carried in condition 2 if so desired
• If hammered and you cock it, then change your mind and decide to decock it, the action can be opened to move the cartridges away from the firing pins, allowing you to thumb-decock it without worrying about slipping and accidentally firing
• Hammered doubles usually still have manual safety levers, so you can still carry in condition 1 if so desired
• Hammerless doubles automatically cock when you open the action to reload

Cons:
• Hammered doubles are slow and awkward to thumb-cock, and trying to do it one-handed is a bad idea (this I know from experience/practice with my Zhong Zhou** coach gun)
• Hammerless doubles are automatically cocked when you open the action to reload, which means it take a lot more force to open the action after firing; doubly so (lawl) with super short barrel like we're talking about here since you don't have as much leverage and gravity on your side (my hammerless 73cm barreled Baikal was very easy to open)
• Opening the action to reload only one barrel takes the other barrel out of the ready-to-fire state, momentarily leaving you at a disadvantage
• Most side-by-side doubles require you to pull the fired shells out of the chamber manually when reloading
• Hammered doubles are somewhat prone to internal damage and uncontrolled discharge if dropped hammers-first on a hard surface with sufficient force; hammerless guns aren't

Super Shorty Pump
Pros:
• One extra shot over the double if you're willing to carry in condition 1
• First shot can be readied to fire one-handed*
• Loading cartridges into the magazine doesn't take the chambered round out of ready-to-fire state, so reloading can be interrupted by firing (this is a benefit of pump shotguns in general)
• The vertical foregrip makes recoil much easier to control if you're using both hands, compared to the double

Cons:
• Subsequent shots require both hands to cycle the action
• You have to extend the foregrip before you can cycle the action - the foregrip must be folded up for the gun to fit into the thigh holster
• Cannot be carried condition 2 if so desired
• Cannot be readied to fire with one hand if carried in condition 3, and carrying condition 3 doesn't give you the extra shot on the initial draw vs. the double barrel

*Whether or not firing one of these with one hand is actually a good idea I leave as an exercise for the audience.

**What's the Hanzi/translation for Zhong Zhou Machine Works?  I've been curious about that.


Between the two I think I'd go with the pump action if you're talking about carrying aboard a spacecraft.  All things considered I'd rather have a SIG Sauer P226 with a sound suppressor and frangible powdered-metal bullets.  Semiauto, much larger magazine capacity, more controllable recoil, and... erm... firing a gun in a tightly enclosed space with metal walls and no sound dampening is bad for your eardrums, especially when you're talking about a 12 gauge shotgun with a 16.5cm barrel.  The noise and flash from that is going to hurt.  The muzzle blast/flash would probably constitute a serious fire hazard as well.

Also, firearms realism counseling for authors of fiction is something I live for.  Feel free to ask me questions any time, if you can tolerate my long-winded thoroughly detailed answers.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #246 on: 30 Aug 2014, 03:55 »

I've been carrying a 1911 in condition 1 since I got my first 1911... no negligent discharges here. Especially in the 1911 platform, condition 1 carry is perfectly safe. I've never had an issue with a round chambered in a Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 before either... or any of my rifles for that matter, and when you're training/patrolling, you're usually condition one in the military as well, and condition four (chamber empty, bolt forward, no magazine inserted, weapon on safe) inside the wire. I find Israeli carry* is only acceptable for certain firearms and specific situations.

*Condition 3 is what most single action weapons are carried in besides condition one, as CSM pointed out it's extremely unsafe in most cases to put a  single action firearm in condition 2, condition three is a magazine inserted, but with the chamber empty, requiring you to cycle the action/slide to put a round in the chamber. It adds roughly 2 seconds to my 5 count presentation (the standard method of drawing from concealment into a shooting stance and firing) which doesn't sound like much, but in a gun fight two seconds is a loooooooong time.
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Noxx

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #247 on: 30 Aug 2014, 11:41 »

I've always carried single action in C1. The only difference I have from norm is that I've never felt comfortable decocking a 1911, and I routinely safe the gun by dropping the mag and cycling out, therefore the trigger is never involved.
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Akima

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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #248 on: 31 Aug 2014, 17:12 »

Also, firearms realism counseling for authors of fiction is something I live for.  Feel free to ask me questions any time, if you can tolerate my long-winded thoroughly detailed answers.
First of all, thank you so much for your detailed comments, which gave me a lot to think about. I had especially not considered the noise and muzzle-flash issues.
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What's the Hanzi/translation for Zhong Zhou Machine Works?  I've been curious about that.
Generally, it is tricky and uncertain to go from "flattened" (no tone marks) pinyin romanization to Chinese characters. Zhongzhou (pronounced roughly JongJoe, with "hard" Js as in jungle, by the way) could be 忠州 or 中轴 or 中州 you see. The capital city of Henan province is Zhengzhou (郑州 pron. JungJoe) which is another possibility if the romanization is imperfect. I am guessing that the most likely option is 中州 which means "central state". "machine works" would be 机械厂 or "machinery factory". I searched on Google and Baidu for 中州机械厂 (Zhōngzhōujīxiθchǎng) and found a company of that name operating in Zhengzhou City, but it seems to manufacture mining and coal-processing machinery, so I'm not sure if it is the right firm.

More generally, what is the feeling of the members here about my silly questions? They are not strictly about gunsmithing, after all.
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Re: Gunsmithing (no politics)
« Reply #249 on: 31 Aug 2014, 17:44 »

You are asking technical questions that are not political.
I don't mind answering questions, if I can answer them of personal knowledge or experience.

Your question about employing a shotgun with heavy gloves....
both break action dbl. barrel and pump action shottys have their benefits and drawbacks.
at least, standard guns would.
I would HOPE, that with foreknowledge of seeing action while using heavy gloves; the users or their military superiors would have their guns' action mechanisms slightly modified to enhance usage while gloved.

examples:
enlarged trigger guards and triggers

*yes, it is a paintball marker; but it gets the point across*

pistol grip for pump shotgun foregrip


enlarged lever for break action dbl. barrel shotty.


which also an example why I do NOT like external hammers on a shotgun
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