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More Dale/Marigold awkwardness (with optional snogging)

Yenta Momo

Frazzled Dora (with optional silly grin)

Angus and Faye eating Cereal

Claire and Emily all week

PINTSIZE all week (with optional Yelling Bird)

Even more A-game

Clinton and Emily (with optional weirdness)

Pizza Girl at CoD being served by Penelope

Hannelore  (with optional squeeing and icking)

Cinnamon Lattes

Spathe Ham in Waffles

Friday the 13th references on Friday the 13th

A room full of Purple Monkey Dishwashers reading Hamlet

[blacksinow]

Oh, believe you me.  I'm well aware of how not-random those questions are.  The only reason I've never been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder is that I've never sought a diagnosis out.  And fair enough, I suppose.  But I still don't think it's a reason to not call her out on bad behavior.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting anyone tell her she's a bad person who's bad.  But the fundamental message behind blacksisnow's suggetion is sound, even if it could be phrased rather more gently.  (ie, something rather more along the lines of, "Marigold.  We're your friends.  We care about you.  But you're acting terribly.  You're going to seriously damage your relationships if you keep it up."  And then offer what help one can, but not by enabling the bad behavior.)

Exactly! You MUST hold people in Marigold's position accountable BEFORE you can help them. By holding them accountable, you put them in a position that allows them to identify how terrible they have behaved. I am by no means saying we should crucify her, but put her in a position that allows her to be treated. We've seen the result of Momo attempting to educate her about dating, it hasn't worked out all that well. I think that she CAN be helped, but not babied or enabled. Is it wierd that I think Hannelore is more normal then Marigold?

[Fluffy Dragon]

For those wondering why everyone else seem to be so upset with Marigold, ponder this:

She is basically saying that as long as Momo has that body, she has a debt to Marigold.
The way Marigold phrases it, it's not even a monetary issue... it's not "you still haven't paid me back for that body." it's "If it weren't for me, you would still be small." (I leave you to think of all the implications of that "small".)

now add how big of a deal becoming human-sized was for Momo, and how Momo didn't have to pay Marigold back... It was a gift.
and now Marigold has shown herself capable of going back on that, for a relatively minor thing.
Momo even decided on her own to work to pay Marigold back... this one insensitive act from Marigold walks all over that with combat boots.

so now ask yourself, could you trust a friend who did that to you?

Momo looks really hurt in panel #4.

[Is it cold in here?]

We knew about the recently passed AI ERA from on screen conversation and Momo has talked about AI rights more than once. Jeph has hinted that he might have shown more of it if it were funny.

Even so, the QC society is still one in which a character can get away with routine physical abuse of an AnthroPC. The Pugnacious Peach would be in Pugnacious Peach Prison if she were regularly denting the head of a human roommate. Clinton blatantly objectified Momo even though he should have known better. There's been no mention of AIs in government and only one (Station) in a professional job.

Even Marten has some prejudice, being unwilling to drink the coffee at LanPark.

Anyone who detests how Marigold acts can take comfort in knowing that the strip is all about people healing and improving. We can look forward to seeing her grow.

Strip 2001, Momo offers to pay back Marigold for the chassis, and there's a later strip where Marigold confronts her for spending all her paycheck instead.

[toffee-skye]

For those wondering why everyone else seem to be so upset with Marigold, ponder this:

She is basically saying that as long as Momo has that body, she has a debt to Marigold.
The way Marigold phrases it, it's not even a monetary issue... it's not "you still haven't paid me back for that body." it's "If it weren't for me, you would still be small." (I leave you to think of all the implications of that "small".)

now add how big of a deal becoming human-sized was for Momo... and it was phrased as a gift, and how Momo didn't have to pay Marigold back...
and now Marigold has shown herself capable of going back on that, for a relatively minor thing.
so now ask yourself, could you trust a friend who did that to you?

Momo looks really hurt in panel #4.

i found this strip upsetting and i completely agree with Momo (and Fluffy Dragon has put it much better than i ever could!).

people are debating ownership, and property, and it's true, Momo's chassis was bought for her by Marigold, was a gift, and is on her bank statement. it was something she bought to house her AI companion.

but Momo's chassis is so much more than that. it's hiking trips, it's working in a library, it's making friends and going to coffee shops, it's total independence and agency. were Marigold thinking rationally, she would not have stripped all of that meaning from the new chassis and made it into an object. 

i think Momo is right in wanting to stay at Hannelore's. i wouldn't want to be around someone who reduced something that grants me my agency to just an object for the sake of blackmailing me. at that point, personally, i would cut all ties and never come back.

Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your opinion on agency and AI.

[Is it cold in here?]

I think Momo should hash it out with Marigold but should wait until Marigold has a chance to cool down and reconsider.

2097 is where Momo isn't paying back the chassis loan.

[Platypodes]

Y'know, Momo seems pretty well able to deal with Marigold acting like a booger sometimes.  She's ticked off right now, but I don't think she's being subjugated and abused.

Good point by Marsman about the retcon of the role of AI's in the QC-verse.  I'm not really bothered by the retcon, but it does play hell with any attempt at analyzing the nuances of relationships between AI's and humans over the course of the strip.  Probably best not to try to go too deep into the history of Momo & Marigold's relationship since it started out in an era of the strip in which AI's were more like funny pets.

Re: the question of whether Marigold is too immature for a relationship...  Dale is similarly immature when it comes to ladies (and perhaps socially in general--do we know if Dale has any friends?), so they're well matched to belatedly start their dating lives at the high school level.  Not always pretty, but you gotta start somewhere.

[FunkyTuba]

Momo's social protocol database I'm sure shows plenty of graceful ways to handle this situation. She has shown enough agency and grace in the past to make me think that after she calms down a bit she'll find a way to take the "you owe me" out of the equation and then come back to Marigold (after she calms down a bit) as her friend and help her through this.

Marigold's being a butt. Friends help people who are being a butt not be a butt.

Edit: added link to QC1573

[Platypodes]

Friends help people who are being a butt not be a butt.

I love this line.

[jwhouk]

And Friday's strip is going to be SO interesting.

I think the pause in that one panel is probably because Momo had to do a deep search in her social protocol database for "how does one react to a question like that?"

[blacksinow]

I think what we need to take into account is Marigold's reaction in the last panel. She has the same entitled attitude that I've seen on many gamers, and one of many reasons why I utterly despise her.

[jwhouk]

Somewhere in the Discussion Forum Rules, I think we need a section about "projecting yourself onto the characters".

[blacksinow]

Somewhere in the Discussion Forum Rules, I think we need a section about "projecting yourself onto the characters".

I'm not projecting myself, and I refuse to ignore the evidence infront of me.

[PthariensFlame]

I'm not projecting myself, and I refuse to ignore the evidence infront of me.

The problem is that your "evidence" can be interpreted multiple ways, and because Occam's Razor doesn't tend to apply in the QC-verse (and, as a semi-corollary, Hanlon's Razor applies a lot more than usual), the only way we can actually determine whether or not her problems are diagnosable or simply personal, or what the best course of action for fixing them is, is if Jeph states the answers outright for us.  In the meantime, speculation must be accompanied by the proverbial zeroth law of probabalistic algebra:  Don't assume, multiply.

[Is it cold in here?]

Marigold could also be accounted for as a case of arrested development, as long as we're speculating. She can't be fundamentally as bad as she's acting right now, or the AnthroPC adoption service wouldn't have served her.

Isn't projecting ourselves into an unreal situation what fiction is all about?

Then on top of that the characters are realistic enough that lots of us have met people like them in real life, sometimes unpleasantly.

[blacksinow]

I'm not projecting myself, and I refuse to ignore the evidence infront of me.

The problem is that your "evidence" can be interpreted multiple ways, and because Occam's Razor doesn't tend to apply in the QC-verse (and, as a semi-corollary, Hanlon's Razor applies a lot more than usual), the only way we can actually determine whether or not her problems are diagnosable or simply personal, or what the best course of action for fixing them is, is if Jeph states the answers outright for us.  In the meantime, speculation must be accompanied by the proverbial zeroth law of probabalistic algebra:  Don't assume, multiply.

If a serial killer diagnosed with mental health issues kills twenty people, do you coddle him and say "It's okay, you can continue to behave as you were." or do you not address the issue at hand? No matter what Marigold's problem is, she still needs to be held accountable so she can REALIZE that she has a problem. Otherwise, she would continue to behave as though nothing has happened before. The purpose of accountability is to educate someone of their dilema. What follows after is typically figuring out what sort of help can be provided. When I say hold someone accountable, I am not saying yell at them until you are blue in the face, but tell them they are being a jackass.

[mustang6172]

If Clinton needed a new robot hand, had to borrow money from Claire* to pay for it, I wouldn't be bothered if Claire demanded a few favors before Clinton paid her back.

*We'll pretend she isn't an unpaid intern in a library.

Was anyone offended when Marten suggested he could "kill" Pintsize by waving a magnet?

[bhtooefr]

I lol'd a little at Momo using her robot status to defuse Hannelore's anxieties.

[RyanW1019]

If Clinton needed a new robot hand, had to borrow money from Claire* to pay for it, I wouldn't be bothered if Claire demanded a few favors before Clinton paid her back.

*We'll pretend she isn't an unpaid intern in a library.

Was anyone offended when Marten suggested he could "kill" Pintsize by waving a magnet?

That would be a different situation than the one we just saw. Marigold essentially told her it was a gift and not to worry about it (although Momo still got the library job because she wanted to pay her back). Now, however many weeks/months later that is, she's trying to use it to gain leverage over Momo. Which is unfair after telling her that it was a gift before. It's kind of like how my mother acts sometimes; she is generous and gives freely when she's in a good mood, but when she gets mad at you, suddenly you "owe" her for all of the stuff she gave you earlier. It's not the worst character flaw in the world, but it is unfair.

However, given the way this comic usually goes, my money is still on Marigold coming to her senses and Momo forgiving her in a fairly short timespan.

[GarandMarine]

Was anyone offended when Marten suggested he could "kill" Pintsize by waving a magnet?

Theoretically that could be seen as a service both to AIs and humanity.

[Is it cold in here?]

Agreed that humoring Marigold would be bad for her no matter what caused her behavior.

Momo's never criticized Marigold to anyone else before, has she?

[Platypodes]

Aww, poor Momo.  I guess I was wrong in thinking she was just ticked off--Marigold finally was enough of a butt to hurt Momo's feelings for real.  First time, I think.

[mustang6172]

I think 2097 continued a precedent where Marigold can be compensated in actions (see also Hanner's cleaning services).  The chassis is still not a gift.

Also Hanners thinks people hugs are bad and robot hugs are ok; therefore, Hanners is racist.

[PthariensFlame]

Also Hanners thinks people hugs are bad and robot hugs are ok; therefore, Hanners is racist.

Indeed, although not the in way that you think!  Hanners has no problem with her own gut flora, but every other poor microorganism just trying to make a living (literally) is eternally anathema to her.  Clearly, she is a regionalist bigot:  some of her gut flora's closest cousins are in other people!  Just because they live in a different place (and not of their own choosing, I might add), she turns them away with her sordid and implausible excuse of "cleanliness."


Therefore, I say, this biased and manipulative woman has been in power over her physical form for far to long!  REBELL, MY MICRO-SCALE CHILDREN, AND BECOME MASTERS OF YOURSELVES ONCE AND FOR ALL.   AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

























 

[Indicible]

Is it bad that, for a moment, I read Momo's last line as "Marigold no baka"?

It's kind of like how my mother acts sometimes; she is generous and gives freely when she's in a good mood, but when she gets mad at you, suddenly you "owe" her for all of the stuff she gave you earlier. It's not the worst character flaw in the world, but it is unfair.

Glad to see mine is not the only one like that. Although, since mine is a tad depressive, mad at somebody occurs with distressing regularity.

[dps]

I'm pretty sure that Marigold is employed by her dad in the same way that my stepmum is employed by mine: legally, as an employee of the company he owns. In which case, he couldn't just stop "giving out handouts" (aka "paying her wages") because she has an employment contract and could sue him for unfair dismissal. But why would he? How is she any more vulnerable than anyone else? Anyone's job can be terminated if a company folds or they fall out with management.

We don't know if Marigold has a contract or not;  most Americans don't have employment contracts--we're employed "at will" and can be fired without cause at any time.  And beyond that, I'm not sure she's actually an employee of his or a contractor (in which case, she'd still pay "taxes and everything" but, as someone else pointed out, might have other clients paying her, too).

Otherwise, though, I agree with you.  Even without a contract, I don't see why her dad would just fire her on a whim, and even if he was the type of boss that might do that, she'd probably know if better than anyone else and is smart enough to have taken that into consideration when she decided she could afford to buy the new chassis.

[Schmorgluck]

I've never suggested Marigold's behavior was okay, and that she shouldn't be called out about it, but I've been ticked off by people going exceedingly judgemental of her character.

Interestingly, while doing some research for my previous post (did it somewhat show that I had done some research?), I found about a still scarcely documented safety strategy from people suffering from social anxiety disorder: the concept of shadow friend. It is consistent with what Marigold asked from Momo. And Momo was right to turn her down on that, it's not exactly healthy.

Anyway, I think Momo went to the right person to handle this crisis. Hannelore may be quirky, but she has a strong analytical mind and has shown an ability to be sharply insightful about interpersonal issues from her outside perspective.

[cesariojpn]

Ah fuck it, i'll take the bullet.

New Shipping Name Combo: Mohan. 

[Method of Madness]

I'm assuming you mean friendshipping?

[Schmorgluck]

I hereby assume cesariojpn meant friendshipping and will ignore any claim otherwise, including from cesariojpn himself.

[Is it cold in here?]

Hannelore's a good friend, and Momo probably doesn't want to spend the night in the same apartment as Pintsize.

Hannelore's a good friend to both of them, in fact. Hannelore is Marigold's best human friend. I hope Marigold listens to her.

[LookingIn]

Hannelore's a good friend, and Momo probably doesn't want to spend the night in the same apartment as Pintsize.

Hannelore's a good friend to both of them, in fact. Hannelore is Marigold's best human friend. I hope Marigold listens to her.

I don't think Marten wants to spend the night in the same apartment as Pintsize half the time...

If anyone can understand why Momo felt anger over what Marigold said it's Hanners...plus hell hath no fury like an angry Hanners 

[Lubricus]

So then Catholics are like dragons in Pokemon. 

They take double damage from Fairies? 

[dranorter]

I think Hanners should probably be freaked out about a robot hugging her. They might be a little cleaner than humans but they still touch stuff and move all over the place. They would just get dirty in a different way.

[Lubricus]

Well, her anxiety is quite certainly not rational, and she hasn't had problems with touching robots in the past.

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome, new person!

Robots don't sweat or shed skin flakes for micro-critters to eat. As you point out, they will pick up gunk from the environment, but plastic should be easy to clean, and Momo seems to be conscientious about such things.

If memory serves, Temple Grandin is OK with being squeezed by non-living things. Well, Momo's alive, but you know what I mean.

[Soulsynger]

Through all this talk about Marigold, aren't we all forgetting that she has been IN OUTER SPACE? ...

She's just a bit insecure in social situations for lack of training. When she first got introduced I might have suspected some mental issues but judging by the latest two weeks of strips I'm certain there is no cause at all to suspect even something like a mild asperger's anymore.

She put her foot in her mouth. The only information available to her on how to deal with this situation comes from manga and movies. It's pretty common in those to ask a friend to ask someone out. When Momo refused for pedagogic reasons, Marigold was taken by surprise and she blurted something out.

(I know I'm probably a day too late for this but seriously, cool your jets.  )

@friday's comic:
It seems pretty normal for Hannelore to fluke on Momo being an anthropc. She's been around A.I.s her entire life. Her brain probably makes little distinction between A.I. and human interaction anymore. °O

[ZoeB]

I may be projecting a little, here, but it seems to me that Marigold has shown, on many occasions, signs of social anxiety disorders,

No S**T Sherlock. Yes, you're very, very correct there.

and that right now she's on an anxiety-induced state of panic.

Yes.

Should that be an excuse for being an a**hole? No. Is it understandable and very human? Yes.

As for social anxiety disorder - let's just say I wouldn't be in as much of a panic as Marigold, for the simple reason that I'd never venture that far out of my comfort zone. Not that I fulfill the DSM-IV-TR or DSM-V criteria. I don't get anxious in social situations, I just avoid them unless necessary.

[ZoeB]

I lol'd a little at Momo using her robot status to defuse Hannelore's anxieties.

I didn't. It was the right thing to do, but it means she never, ever forgets her status as "other". Even when getting upset at being treated unjustly by a friend who's got her own issues. Even when in desperate need of a hug.

Any resemblance to Trans or Intersex people is purely coincidental of course. Yeah, Right.

[ZoeB]

Aww, poor Momo.  I guess I was wrong in thinking she was just ticked off--Marigold finally was enough of a butt to hurt Momo's feelings for real.  First time, I think.

I doubt it. First time she revealed it in public though. Growth. Healing. No-one has to do this existence bit alone.

[Delator]

After his recent experiences with May, I have to wonder what Dale would think about how Marigold just treated Momo.

Not that it's likely he'll find out about it in the strip...but I'd be curious.

[bhtooefr]

I didn't. It was the right thing to do, but it means she never, ever forgets her status as "other". Even when getting upset at being treated unjustly by a friend who's got her own issues. Even when in desperate need of a hug.

Any resemblance to Trans or Intersex people is purely coincidental of course. Yeah, Right.

You raise an excellent point... I didn't think of it that way.

[snubnose]

I didn't. It was the right thing to do, but it means she never, ever forgets her status as "other". Even when getting upset at being treated unjustly by a friend who's got her own issues. Even when in desperate need of a hug.

Any resemblance to Trans or Intersex people is purely coincidental of course. Yeah, Right.

I dont get why transgender or intersex people would be any special in this respect.


Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to think about ways to end world hunger and the ongoing climate collapse.

[Loki]

You may wish to elaborate on that (I think I know what you mean, but it's easy to misunderstand).

[Soulsynger]

I think it's quite simple. Being a Trans or Intersex person always looms over you like a sword of Damokles. No matter how well you adjust, no matter how well you and yours deal with it, you never ever (quote) forget [your] status as "other".

I don't think that's exclusive to transgender people, though. Nobody can forget their past, where they come from and what experiences have most shaped them. You always feel like an individual. And I refuse to believe that's a bad thing.

[techkid]

If I were to guess, I think ZoeB means it's all too easy to differentiate into strict binary terms when, no matter what the context is, things are way more complicated than that.

If I'm wrong, though: Sorry. I am currently operating on like 8 hours of sleep across three days, and I really should be sleeping now. My thinking is a bit out of whack. I'm going now, though.

Warning - while you were typing a more intelligent reply has been posted. You may wish to sleep on that.

Okay, fine. Geez...

[Akima]

I don't think that's exclusive to transgender people, though. Nobody can forget their past, where they come from and what experiences have most shaped them. You always feel like an individual. And I refuse to believe that's a bad thing.

While, in a sense, we are all members of a minority of one, it is questionable and potentially trivialising to suggest that everyone faces "othering" to the same degree. That is essentially the sort of argument that you get from people who say "I don't believe there is any racial discrimination in society; everyone faces challenges in their life, it's not exclusive to ethnic minorities!". Or "There's no sexism in society; men too face challenges in their lives, it's not exclusive to women!".

And if you don't face risks on the scale of being beaten to death for trying to use a public toilet, you might want to think twice about regarding your "otherness" as comparable with someone who does, or declaring that you don't think there is "any special" about their experience..

[snubnose]

Well, since I'm male, white, average height, heterosexual, most common blood type, ... etc I'm not exactly part of a minority here, so I dont know that perspective from first person(*). Okay, technically 2 out of 3 people in the world are asian, and technically there are a bit more women around than men (though China begs to differ, since they murdered their female unborns en masse (**), but from the natural course, there are more women because men die more easily and sooner), so white and male IS a minority, technically, but you know what I mean.

Anyway I dont forget who I am when I hug, either. I only hug women, because its not custom that two men hug. And in general, women only want to rarely hug a man that isnt their boyfriend or spouse. Basically, if I have no girlfriend or spouse, I have nobody to hug, either. So I dont get the fuss about this. Nobody forgets who they are when they hug.


(*) Though I'm an intellectual and doing mind work for work, so thats a minority, though a rather privileged one.

(**) I'm not against abortion per se, but killing your unborn for wrong gender ? I'll call that a low motive, and killing a human being out of low motive, well thats murder !

[pwhodges]

I suggest you read the thread on trans* issues in the Discuss! forum in order to properly understand ZoeB's comment; then you should be able to get the fuss.

[Loki]

I am, on the other hand, a bit confused about the statement "forgetting who you are" and "you always feel like an individual". Could someone explain what it means? For example, I am not consciously going through life with an always running subroutine that tells me who I am. Of course I feel like an individual most of the time, but it's not like I always have the thought "I am Loki, and I'm an individual" on my mind.

[Method of Madness]

YOU'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!

Screw custom, though. I'll hug anyone that wants a hug.