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This Week ......

More Dale/Marigold awkwardness (with optional snogging)
Yenta Momo
Frazzled Dora (with optional silly grin)
Angus and Faye eating Cereal
Claire and Emily all week
PINTSIZE all week (with optional Yelling Bird)
Even more A-game
Clinton and Emily (with optional weirdness)
Pizza Girl at CoD being served by Penelope
Hannelore  (with optional squeeing and icking)
Cinnamon Lattes
Spathe Ham in Waffles
Friday the 13th references on Friday the 13th
A room full of Purple Monkey Dishwashers reading Hamlet

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Author Topic: WCDT: 2593-2597 (09-13 December 2013) Weekly Comics Discussion Thread  (Read 39695 times)

Lubricus

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Screw custom, though. I'll hug anyone that wants a hug.

Amen to that! There aren't too many hugs goings around!
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What do you know about Pokémon?

Loki

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One of the most memorable experiences of my life is hugging roughly 200 people in a row (literally).


Anime conventions are awesome.
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The key part in Zoe's statement is " but it means she never, ever forgets her status as "other"." Like trans people, no matter what, we always remember there is that dividing wall there.  That there is something off about us, even in groups of equals. Yes, that can be said about everyone, since there is always something that divides us. People do so love their divisions. But in this case, the condition of our body is something we can never forget, nor forget that because of it, some people see us as lesser than, or 'other'.
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Black Sword

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Marigold might have been raised Catholic, as that is some serious application of guilt.

(Catholic, so not only quite skillful at using guilt, but also takes critical hits from guilt-element attacks!)
So then Catholics are like dragons in Pokemon:psyduck:

After lurking on this forum for so long, I finally have a great quote to put in my sig!

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I am not consciously going through life with an always running subroutine that tells me who I am.

But people whose "otherness" (as perceived by the world at large) causes problems or even places them in danger I believe actually do have to live with such a routine.
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Honestly, the past strip seems a bit of a reflection of Marigold's situation in miniature. Sure, rationally, the hug shouldn't bother Hannelore, but isn't it predictable that it initially would, particularly for an AI?

Marigold was pretty much a jerk, but I think it's a bit more than just social awkwardness. I've been a bit offput for a while at just how paternalistic the other characters have been getting toward Marigold. I honestly think Jeph is sprinkling hints at this by having so many instances of characters saying, "Yep, they're totally going to bang!", etc. Is Marigold immature? I think so. Yet I still don't know how you expect people to react when you tell them, "I know what's best for you", and manipulate things around them so *quickly*.

The last date was yesterday. From Marigold's point of view: (1) she got some teasing for dancing after the date  (2) today, she was hoping to see Dale, but (3) got forced into an uncomfortable situation by Hannelore assuming what's best for her and (4) panicked and ran home to someone else who knows what's best for her.

That last statement of Momo's isn't neutral. Saying "I could, but I will not." feels like a similar, but lower degree, form of Marigold's response. It's saying "I have the power to make it work out, but I want you to do it for your own good." rather than just explaining that it's a terrible idea because it's a terrible foundation for a relationship. I feel like she's gotten insensitized to legitimately awkward situations. I see echos of it in todays' strip, where she honestly looked annoyed that Hannelore might have briefly failed to process she's a robot.

Lastly, this is why I hate plots where a group of friends decide "A and B should be together, let's make it happen!". I've been the A in that, and it's really annoying for an introspective person. You have to sort out your own feelings with the combined fact that now you know that someone besides the two of you has already constructed this narrative before you know what you want. That's entirely the situation where I'd be apt to think that if this is so important to them, why don't they handle it.

Summation: Marigold was a jerk, but I honestly think it's more the release of acute pressure she's feeling from everyone else rather than a general thing.
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DSL

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I think ZoeB's comment might be clearer to more if it's understood to mean (and as I think she meant; please correct me if necessary): "allowed to forget your status as 'other.'"
We all like to think we're apart from the crowd in some way that makes us special, but that's voluntary.
But when the decision is made for you that you can never be, even if you want to be, part of the crowd -- that's hurtful. Sometimes it's deadly.
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Tulpa

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I think Hanners should probably be freaked out about a robot hugging her. They might be a little cleaner than humans but they still touch stuff and move all over the place. They would just get dirty in a different way.
Beat me to it. Figured I should read back to see if anyone else mentioned that. I doubt robots shower daily or even wash their hands often.
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toffee-skye

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YOU'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!

i'm not.

i like to think Hanners is okay with hugging robots because unless they get extremely dirty (e.g. when FROGLORD was introduced) their dermal/outside coating on the chassis is like those self-cleaning windows. so whilst Hanners knows they're dirty, they're dirty in a way that will sooner rather than later be recitified.
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Miglow

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I think Hanners should probably be freaked out about a robot hugging her. They might be a little cleaner than humans but they still touch stuff and move all over the place. They would just get dirty in a different way.
Beat me to it. Figured I should read back to see if anyone else mentioned that. I doubt robots shower daily or even wash their hands often.

There's a difference though. Bacteria and germs can actually live on and thrive on human skin, where there's available moisture a nutrients. A robot chassis is only as dirty as what it has been in contact with, and even then many microbes won't survive that long.

Anyhow, I think Hannelore is freaked out about the hugging because she just doesn't deal with interpersonal touching very often to begin with. She could be hugged by her dad who just went through 5 levels of decontamination and still be freaked out, because she just isn't used to having that sort of contact (assuming the hug was a surprise, like the one Momo gave).
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Kugai

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Hugs all round.


And be prepared for Maribear to get a Hannerblast on Monday I think.
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Schmorgluck

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Hanners doesn't do blasts. Well, there's been that one time when Faye was working on knocking herself senseless with booze, but that was a clear emergency.
But I think Marigold could use some stern lecturing. And Hannelore might be able to provide that.
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Momo needs help to improve Marigold's lack of social skills. Hannelore is obviously someone who is willing to help, but probably more resources are needed. Time to reintroduce May? Can the May/Momo/Hannelore team apply their combined influence on Marigold and Dale?

Schmorgluck

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I wish people stopped calling Marigold's issues "lack of social skills". It's unnerving.
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Mr_Rose

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Yes, I'm pretty sure her lack of social skills is a result of her condition, a symptom even, but not the extent or the cause.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure her lack of social skills is a result of her condition, a symptom even, but not the extent or the cause.
Well, either it's that, or an incapacity for social skills, which would be much more severe than what we've seen so far, but I suppose it could be plausible.
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PthariensFlame

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For example, I am not consciously going through life with an always running subroutine that tells me who I am.
Yes, you are, unless you have one of the rare disorders that cause people to lack a sense of self.  Do you ever actually think that you inhabit multiple disconnected bodies simultaneously?  If not, then that subroutine exists and is constantly active.  The problem ZoeB refers to would be better stated as having an attachment to that process that reaffirms a stereotype (in the pen-initial sense of the word).  Getting rid of the whole process would solve that problem, but also introduce the far worse one that I just described.
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SageJiraiya

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I don't know where this discussion is going, but I am beginning to think it may be better suited somewhere other than in a WCD thread.

Always remember:
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Cogito Ergo Sum, Amigo.

Loki

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Explicitely with my user hat: I think you may be right. I think I will cease the discussion for now.
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Just a comic, yes, but trying to describe real issues and problems. I guess this is why I like QC so much.

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It may be "just" a comic (as opposed to be what, by the way?), it still has characters in it. Characters who behave in certain ways. And people end up having opinions about the characters' behaviours.

But yeah, "Hamlet" is just a play.
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Even Marten has some prejudice, being unwilling to drink the coffee at LanPark.

Since robots can't taste the coffee, I don't think this is prejudice as much as common sense. I would not pay money to drink coffee made by someone who has never tasted coffee themselves either.


Momo does shower, she had a shower after the frog-catching walking trip with Sam and Padma if I remember correctly (she objected vehemently to the suggestion of putting her chassis in the dishwasher).
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Mr_Rose

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Not her chassis, just her external covering.
I imagine Jeph wasn't too enamoured of having to draw a Terminator either. So many fiddly bits!
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Schmorgluck

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Marten has a well-documented poor taste when it comes to coffee.
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Is it cold in here?

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In late, but to amplify what ZoeB said, Momo was vividly conscious of being plastic even while she was explicitly being treated like someone made of meat.

"Now and then we all are aliens", and a lot of people here know all about being misfits, but most of us can put it out of our minds temporarily. The experience of having that knowledge be as omnipresent as a kidney stone is qualitatively different.

Evidently it's like that for trans* people, which must be one of the reasons it's so terrible to to look at one with the intent of figuring out how masculine or feminine their appearance is.

Derec: Welcome, new person! Good insight. She's had to be pressured to leave her comfort zone but that's a treatment with severe side effects.

Schmorgluck: there was an earlier Hannerblast, when Dora and Marten were fighting and she broke it up as though she were her mother's daughter.

EDIT with more thoughts:
Momo can legally walk out, but not without cost. She's emotionally bonded to Marigold and it would hurt as much as a divorce.
What's the cartoon where Marten says he's really the boss of Pintsize because he pays the electric bill? My archive-fu has failed.
« Last Edit: 13 Dec 2013, 15:53 by Is it cold in here? »
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ZoeB

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In late, but to amplify what ZoeB said, Momo was vividly conscious of being plastic even while she was explicitly being treated like someone made of meat.

"Now and then we all are aliens", and a lot of people here know all about being misfits, but most of us can put it out of our minds temporarily. The experience of having that knowledge be as omnipresent as a kidney stone is qualitatively different.

Evidently it's like that for trans* people, which must be one of the reasons it's so terrible to to look at one with the intent of figuring out how masculine or feminine their appearance is.
+1 Insightful.
It can be useful though. Hanners would freak if Momo was usual. She did a bit anyway, momentarily forgetting.
Momo needed a hug though. She thought it was safe.
Needing a hug won't be in any social protocol database, something external. It's been internalised.
Growth. Healing.
And maybe by hugging Momo, there's a pathway where Hanners might be able to hug others too, one day. Sometimes being "other" has advantages, it's useful, it can help and make the world a little better.

Jeph is very, very observant, and I don't think we're reading too much into a comic. It's happened too often.
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Tulpa

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For example, I am not consciously going through life with an always running subroutine that tells me who I am.
Yes, you are, unless you have one of the rare disorders that cause people to lack a sense of self.  Do you ever actually think that you inhabit multiple disconnected bodies simultaneously?  If not, then that subroutine exists and is constantly active.  The problem ZoeB refers to would be better stated as having an attachment to that process that reaffirms a stereotype (in the pen-initial sense of the word).  Getting rid of the whole process would solve that problem, but also introduce the far worse one that I just described.
That's often called the ego. People who take psychedelics at high doses, such as shrooms, can experience ego death which is where that goes away for a little while. Then there's also dissociatives where you feel like you become part of the wall or whatever. Or so I've heard.  :psyduck:
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draiden

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For example, I am not consciously going through life with an always running subroutine that tells me who I am.
Yes, you are, unless you have one of the rare disorders that cause people to lack a sense of self.  Do you ever actually think that you inhabit multiple disconnected bodies simultaneously?  If not, then that subroutine exists and is constantly active.  The problem ZoeB refers to would be better stated as having an attachment to that process that reaffirms a stereotype (in the pen-initial sense of the word).  Getting rid of the whole process would solve that problem, but also introduce the far worse one that I just described.
That's often called the ego. People who take psychedelics at high doses, such as shrooms, can experience ego death which is where that goes away for a little while. Then there's also dissociatives where you feel like you become part of the wall or whatever. Or so I've heard.  :psyduck:
If I ever get to try shrooms i'll let you know what happens. I can confirm that purple salvia can make you feel llike you're part of other things, you can become part of a color, or see things from other perspectives than the one you're looking from.
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Is it cold in here?

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Would you let an AnthroPC make your coffee if it had a chemosensor like Pintsize's? Or if it was as carefully programmed as a Clover machine?
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vsonics

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So I enjoyed the comic today, but I had just a teeny bit of an issue with it.

I know that we've been largely looking at it from Momo's perspective here, and that Hanners is fine with touching robots, but I still wish that Momo had actually let go of her when she was screaming about being touched. A reminder that "hey, you're okay  because I'm a robot!" is good, but that Momo still had her hands on Hannelore at the end even as she was expressing distress at being touched made me a little uncomfortable.

(Note that I'm not really mad about it - I like the concept Momo/Hannelore hugging. But it would have made the strip better for me.)

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Fenriswolf

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+1 to vsonics' post.
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Adding my thumbs up for vsonic's observation as well.
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Quote from: Anne McCaffrey
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Worlds are lost or worlds are saved
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RightInTheSquishyParts

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it's one frame in an action sequence,  she's in the process of letting go.   

PROBLEM:  SOLVED.   ;)
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ankhtahr

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I've experienced short moments of dissociation without any substances about a year ago. Probably induced by not sleeping enough over the course of a month. That doesn't feel good. Actually I often feel unable to describe it, as there is nothing that can compare to it. Losing the feeling of being yourself, doubting that you yourself are real, and completely losing any feeling for time is scary. Extremely scary. These moments ware very short, but were accompanied by a strange bodily sensation which lasted about a minute. I had the feeling of not having direct control over my body. I felt like I was directing a puppet. Like I was just pulling strings. This in addition to not feeling part of yourself adds up to some serious doubts at reality.

The strongest feeling was probably the 'losing all feeling for time' one. All kinds of memories came back to live, and I had the feeling that no time had passed between these memories and the current moment. I felt like I was six, eight, nine, eleven, thirteen, sixteen, seventeen and eighteen all at once. But all these memories felt rather alien as well. They didn't feel like 'my' memories.

I can tell you, I'm happy I haven't experienced this for a year.

My therapist at that time was rather surprised by me having experienced this. Also slightly worried.
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PthariensFlame

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Wow.  I'm glad I don't have anything that drastic (at least in that direction, so to speak).  The most serious thing similar to that that I've ever had has been occasionally feeling like multiple people, and then only on a certain level (I would still be aware of "me;" there would just be multiple "me"s claiming the title for a short time).
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Quote from: Anne McCaffrey
Honor those the dragons heed
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Worlds are lost or worlds are saved
From those dangers dragon-braved.

Is it cold in here?

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I wonder if that sort of thing ever happens to AnthroPCs and whether they can fix it with a software patch.
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Loki

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Maybe that's what happened to Gary and he refuses to fix it.
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Method of Madness

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I like how Marbear thought it was insignificant spam, yet still remembers that apparent spam she got when she was what, 10?
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pwhodges

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I don't know where this discussion is going, but I am beginning to think it may be better suited somewhere other than in a WCD thread.

It's a bit of a tradition that at the end of the week the WCDT is discussing some weighty matter that came out of the comic that week; some of those discussions end up in Discuss!, if they seem worth preserving and continuing (most notably the discussion of trans* issues).

As for "just a comic" - sure, but just a comic written by Jeph Jacques.
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"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

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I like how Marbear thought it was insignificant spam, yet still remembers that apparent spam she got when she was what, 10?
I figured she heard about it the next day or even the same.  An event like that must have been the hottest topic on every even remotely tech-related forum for hours, at least.
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LookingIn

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I like how Marbear thought it was insignificant spam, yet still remembers that apparent spam she got when she was what, 10?
I figured she heard about it the next day or even the same.  An event like that must have been the hottest topic on every even remotely tech-related forum for hours, at least.

And being a website administrator she would have to know about potential security threats like that...
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Barmymoo

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Wasn't Gary quite a long time ago though? I doubt she was an admin at that point.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

LookingIn

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Wasn't Gary quite a long time ago though? I doubt she was an admin at that point.

I just completed my security course and we were being taught about attacks from the 80s and 90s to help protect against threats of today and brought back memories of threats I remember from the 90s emails that I directly saw so it isn't too far of a stretch that she would remember something odd like that.
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Very few threats go away completely, however old.
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"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

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Some have suggested that if CLU had managed to get out of his boxed system at the end of TRON Legacy, his great invasion of the net might have looked rather like someone uncorked a virus archive from the early 90s - as uneven and bloody a fight, against modern network security, as frisbees against M-16s and tanks.

"You wanted to see the outside?  Well, welcome to it.  You may have noticed the rules are a little different here."
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Aww come on, I haven't seen Legacy yet :psyduck:
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They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Masterpiece

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
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  • Posts: 4,364
  • No time for Claireification

It's probably too late to discuss this, but I'll just say it:

I'm surprised that Momo didn't snap sooner. Poor boo. I really want to hug her right now.

jwhouk

  • Awakened
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  • Posts: 11,010
  • The Valley of the Sun

This Week ......

More Dale/Marigold awkwardness (with optional snogging)    36 (29%)
Yenta Momo    9 (7.3%)
Frazzled Dora (with optional silly grin)    8 (6.5%)
Angus and Faye eating Cereal    9 (7.3%)
Claire and Emily all week    7 (5.6%)
PINTSIZE all week (with optional Yelling Bird)    5 (4%)
Even more A-game    1 (0.8%)
Clinton and Emily (with optional weirdness)    4 (3.2%)
Pizza Girl at CoD being served by Penelope    13 (10.5%)
Hannelore  (with optional squeeing and icking)    13 (10.5%)
Cinnamon Lattes    2 (1.6%)
Spathe Ham in Waffles    6 (4.8%)
Friday the 13th references on Friday the 13th    6 (4.8%)
A room full of Purple Monkey Dishwashers reading Hamlet    5 (4%)

Total Members Voted: 70

Anyone who wants to tackle this week, go for it.
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"Character is what you are in the Dark." - D.L. Moody
There is no joke that can be made online without someone being offended by it.
Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.
Just another Joe like 46

Shjade

  • FIGHT YOU
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  • Posts: 378
  • What.

Of course I feel like an individual most of the time, but it's not like I always have the thought "I am Loki, and I must take over the world" on my mind.

Fixed for truthiness.
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"People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered. Love them anyway."

Loki

  • comeback tour!
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  • Posts: 5,532
  • The mischief that dwells within

The lack of such thoughts might explain why I haven't taken over the world yet.

Or have I?
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The future is a weird place and you never know where it will take you.
the careful illusion of shit-togetherness
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