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Pugnacious Peach Pugilistic Punchout

Claire Crimson Cheek Continuation

Marten Mainly Mumbles Methodiclly

Steve Swallows Serially

Battling Bianchi Battlezone

Tai Terrorizes Tall Twin

Jeph Jacques Japes

Waffling Waffles Wander Wonderingly

Butts

[pwhodges]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople or even if he does want to date transpeople, date Clare in particular.

But most people are responding to what's actually shown in the comic rather than any baseless assumptions about the characters' motivations.

[davedig]

Who is this Clare anyway?

 Is she friends and co-workers with Marin in that comic Quest Content by Jeff Jacks?

I want to mention that I was having a stressful day at work and when Marten started scratching Claire's hair. It cheered me up so much that work suddenly became way easier.

[Alphawolf55]

Marten hasn't shown anything either way. He's playing around with her like she's a cat or a little sister. The point is that people are setting themselves for a possible heart break.

Also Claire is definitely not a shock value character, but I sometimes wonder if she was always meant to be well written. Was it a chicken or the egg situation? Did she get better writing because of how popular she is compared to Gabby and Emily or did she become popular because she got better writing then Gabby and Emily. Gabby placement in the story makes me skeptical it's the latter.

[Valdís]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

[Orkboy]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

Telling you why you're wrong would require me to speculate about Claire's parts, which we've been told not to do. 

[Thedrd0nna]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

Telling you why you're wrong would require me to speculate about Claire's parts, which we've been told not to do.

This would appear to be making an assumption about which parts a trans person has. Pretty much by definition, trans people can have any combination of expected parts. If you're making broad assumptions about what someone is packing, based on them being trans-well, you're gonna be wrong, pretty frequently.

[Valdís]

Telling you why you're wrong would require me to speculate about Claire's parts, which we've been told not to do.

See:

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

That is such nonsense regardless, though, and probably more indicative of you still thinking of us as men in some capacity as though it had anything to do with it (See: practically every guy's voiced insecurities about such things ever). Most people tend to be able to figure out if they're into someone -without- inspecting their genitalia, as it happens.

Especially considering the absurd porn-fueled misconceptions of how most trans girls actually tend to feel about it or involving it. Hint: Sex between trans girls ain't like in the movies.

[Zebediah]

I oft forget of Claire as trans until I remind myself, and that, I think, is kind of the point? (apologies if not)

That is EXACTLY the point.  And welcome to the forum.

[Alphawolf55]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

Telling you why you're wrong would require me to speculate about Claire's parts, which we've been told not to do.

Pretty much this and even if we could we have no idea how transitioning is different in the QC universe compared to our own their science is far more advanced which could have implications as well.

[Nyithra]

There is some stuff I want to say about this but I really think we need to move away from any sort of parts discussion.

[dunnright]

There is some stuff I want to say about this but I really think we need to move away from any sort of parts discussion.

Ditto. Actually started to reply to a comment and then decided to just say... Good Comic! 

[brew]

I really feel like everyone (both in the forums and in the comic) is blowing the ethical dilemma WAY out of proportion.  There is definitely a standard of conduct between coworkers in the workplace, and this might be an issue between two people in a large corporation, if it were a supervisor/subordinate relationship that existed fairly high up the food chain.

I don't think it should be much of a real issue, but I find Marten's behavior, if it's not just a platonic misunderstanding, really out-of-character, considering how recent the whole Emily thing was. He wouldn't explicitly bring up the intern problem so many times and then just suddenly ignore it.

I also just hate the only East Asian character being treated like a joke.

[Valdís]

There is some stuff I want to say about this but I really think we need to move away from any sort of parts discussion.

Also this. Though paper-thin euphemisms for the same sort of discussion isn't really moving away from it, people.

"But of course it's totally legit and non-transphobic to find you people, as a class, unattractive because ~reasons~" isn't exactly hard to figure out.

[Orkboy]

Avoiding the prohibited topic, there's a difference between not wanting to date someone and actually being phobic.  Is Sven a brunette-a-phobe because he prefers blondes?  Was Faye a non-skinny-indie-rock-boy-a-phobe?  Not being into someone because of a sexual hangup is a reasonable thing.  For example, Tai's initial problem with getting with Dora was totally reasonable.   The question is whether Marten will have the same kind of hangup. 
EDIT: Thought about it more.  I don't think he would.  He seems too chill to have hangups about anything.

By the reasoning of several people here, every straight person is a homophobe because they don't want a gay/lesbian partner of their own gender. 

On the subject of the ethical thing, I think Marten could ignore it if he wanted to.  And I kinda think he wants to. 

[swapna]

Pretty much this and even if we could we have no idea how transitioning is different in the QC universe compared to our own their science is far more advanced which could have implications as well.

Yeah, and thinking about it it would be pretty cool - the QC-Universe not only is scientifically advanced, the society seems to be more open and inclusive, too. While AI do not have equal rights, they are fighting for them (and are supported), gay weddings are a normal thing (there was absolutely NO drama concerning Marten's two dads) and while Claire is hesitant about sharing that she's trans, there was no mention of any legal problems/drama (which are a major source of stress and money disappearing for the trans people I know)

(While you were typing a BAZILLION people posted DARN)

[Valdís]

That sure is a lot of bullshit right there, Orkboy.

The fact that your emphasized "counter-argument" example is "Are you calling straight men homophobic for not wanting a gay relationship, then!?" is really telling.

And no, a specific aesthetic preference is not at all the same damn thing as "I don't date asian people because the thought of being with them disturbs me". That is friggin' blatantly obvious. I doubt you could find someone who genuinely was disgusted at the thought of being with a brown-haired girl, without some underlying triggers, to explain their preference for blondes. Where as we actually do have uncountable examples of the media showing people perfectly happy to be intimate with trans women, have no issues with their bodies, and then afterwards LITERALLY PROJECTILE VOMITING DUE TO THE MERE THOUGHT OF HAVING BEEN WITH ONE OF THESE CREATURES.

So don't tell me it's the same fucking thing.

Edit: And don't talk to me as though repulsion is the same as a "sexual hangup", either. I know about having sex-repulsion issues a-plenty. Being repulsed by a minority class is not a "reasonable thing", but sex-repulsion -doesn't have to be reasonable-. It can be really random things, a variety triggers, or like in this case from a systematic societal monstering. No one is entitled to any intimacy ever. But that doesn't mean it's not transphobic and cissexist.

[Roxtar]

Just because Marten isn't transphobic doesn't mean he wants to date transpeople

That -is- transphobic, though. To have internalized disgust of the mere thought of us in the abstract. If I said "The thought of being in a relationship with an asian person disturbs me and I don't think I could date someone like that" then that is unquestionably racist. People completely have the right to not have relationships or whatever with any person for any reason (or lack thereof), but that doesn't change the facts of the underlying bias and othering involved. A statement like "not wanting to date trans people (and more specifically trans -women-)" inevitably rests on a basis of transphobia and cissexism because of where the thoughts behind it originate.

We know Marten likes girls. Trans girls are -girls-, ergo he likes trans girls. There also isn't some universal defining characteristic in common to all trans girls outside of actually being girls. Not that that's the reason for the repulsed response in the first place. It's mostly just the widespread transmisogyny in our culture, which paints us as disgusting abstract objects rather than actual people, seeping through.

I disagree... it depends on motivations and reasons for dating.
I am a straight male who was born and identifies as a male.
I want to eventually father children (both biologically and in the parental sense).
because of that, I date women with the idea of possibly starting a family in the future.
As trans women cannot bear children, that would be a legitimate reason to exclude trans women from my dating pool without considering them "repulsive".

refusing to date people of $orientation is not $orientation-phobic if that orientation is in conflict with your own dating/relationship goals.

[reicreature]

I posted about this earlier, but deleted the post because I felt it would provide a launch pad to offensive commentary...
But I am going to summarize what I said earlier with this:

Dating a trans person is not different from dating any other person. If you have affection for and are attracted to a person, you are attracted and affectionate and other details become minor.

[Orkboy]

That sure is a lot of bullshit right there, Orkboy.

The fact that your emphasized "counter-argument" example is "Are you calling straight men homophobic for not wanting a gay relationship, then!?" is really telling.

And no, a specific aesthetic preference is not at all the same damn thing as "I don't date asian people because the thought of being with them disturbs me". That is friggin' blatantly obvious. I doubt you could find someone who genuinely was disgusted at the thought of being with a brown-haired girl, without some underlying triggers, to explain their preference for blondes. Where as we actually do have uncountable examples of the media showing people perfectly happy to be intimate with trans women, have no issues with their bodies, and then afterwards LITERALLY PROJECTILE VOMITING DUE TO THE MERE THOUGH OF HAVING BEEN WITH ONE OF THESE CREATURES.

So don't tell me it's the same fucking thing.

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing Marten and Claire, not the media portrayal of trans relationships.  If you want the latter, there's a whole thread for it in the Discuss board.

EDIT: Also, I think it's the general consensus that the media is wrong about everything else trans related.

[Nyithra]

Actually, I read about the possibility of uterus transplants a few months ago. Sweden is apparently doing them successfully. I might imagine since the QC universe has more advanced technology than our own, the whole "what if marten wants kids?!" things might not particularly be an issue.

[Valdís]

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing Marten and Claire, not the media portrayal of trans relationships.

Marten and Claire is a media portrayal of a (potential) relationship with a trans girl.

You're the one deciding to utterly ignore all context and make ridiculous comparisons to liking hair-colours, as if that societal bias doesn't exist. It is not some innocent 'preference' arrived at in a vacuum. It is arrived at through normalized transmisogyny.

[TheEvilDog]

Aaaaand I'm going to go to the fallout bunker before this thread goes nuclear.

Or perhaps we can all be grown ups and move along.

Although I do realise saying that on the internet is about as futile as trying to stop a tidal wave with a piece of wet tissue paper.

[Masterpiece]

There goes the fifteen page dream

[Valdís]

I am a straight male who was born and identifies as a male.

Separating 'being X' from 'identifying as X' is cissexist, fyi. I'm not a "male identifying as female"; I am female.

I disagree... it depends on motivations and reasons for dating.
I want to eventually father children (both biologically and in the parental sense).
because of that, I date women with the idea of possibly starting a family in the future.

That is not excluding someone due to their transness. That is excluding all people incapable of getting pregnant (though not necessarily of reproducing*). Specifying "I don't date trans women" indicates otherwise as you don't demand fertility information from cis women.

*Wouldn't that be more of an issue as to whether or not SHE wants biological kids? Could simply raise yours-by-donated-cells, otherwise.

refusing to date people of $orientation is not $orientation-phobic

"Orientation"

Oh, and actually it is in many cases even then. Lots of people refuse to date bisexual/pansexual people for very, very biphobic underlying reasons to do with their concepts of those groups.

[KOK]

There is some stuff I want to say about this but I really think we need to move away from any sort of parts discussion.

Also this. Though paper-thin euphemisms for the same sort of discussion isn't really moving away from it, people.

"But of course it's totally legit and non-transphobic to find you people, as a class, unattractive because ~reasons~" isn't exactly hard to figure out.

Making controversial claims in a forum where the effective counterargument is forbidden is a poor form of debate. If you do not want people to refer to this, even obliquely, you should not make a statement like "dating a trans woman is like dating any other woman." That kind of statement will bring out counterarguments, and these arguments will concern that which is off limits here. You are responsible for this when you make such a claim.

[Valdís]

Counter-point: Fuck entirely off with your transmisogyny.

I will, in fact, state that we are every bit as much women as anyone else and that is not up for "debate". I am not looking to "debate" my right to exist with you; I am telling you what is cissexist and what has underlying transmisogyny.

[KOK]

Counter-point: Fuck entirely off with your transmisogyny.

I will, in fact, state that we are every bit as much women as anyone else and that is not up for "debate". I am not looking to "debate" my right to exist with you, I am telling you what is cissexist and what has underlying transmisogyny.

Your right to exist is not being questioned. Of course you have a right to exist. Nobody has challenged that.

[Alphawolf55]

Actually, I read about the possibility of uterus transplants a few months ago. Sweden is apparently doing them successfully. I might imagine since the QC universe has more advanced technology than our own, the whole "what if marten wants kids?!" things might not particularly be an issue.

Thats why I said it's hard to discuss this without knowing the level of technology in the QC universe. While in the real world transwomen and ciswomen are both every bit a woman as the other, there are at the moment logistic differences that might turn people off from a relationship whether it be children issues, actual sex issues among other things. In the QC universe these problems might not exist due to the level of advance technology there might literally be no superficial differences between a ciswoman body and a transwoman body after transition. Though until we're told otherwise my initial reaction is to assume most things are like our universe, for example Clares brother has a more advanced version of a robot hand that are starting exist in our world vs a cloned, grafted on hand that might happen with the level of technology we're discussing might be possible.

[Valdís]

Your right to exist is not being questioned. Of course you have a right to exist. Nobody has challenged that.

My being a woman is a non-negotiable fact of my existence which can not be haggled piecemeal away. Don't take for granted that such a debate is real and legitimate, rather than just a Domination Technique by people in an oppressor-class.

[kryptoknight]

Welcome, latest new people!

Some things you should know in advance: first, QC is a comic about people doing stupid things. Claire is smarter than the average character but remember that if she does something stupid it won't be an attack on trans people in general.

The other thing, closely related, is that Jeph has done a widely praised good job at making Claire an individual, and not The Trans Character. Anything she says or does is just her and not a Message.

Whether it was aimed at me or not, I might be guilty of implying this in my first post and would just like to say I understand both of those points - I oft forget of Claire as trans until I remind myself, and that, I think, is kind of the point? (apologies if not) She is a good, rounded character with her own foibles and issues, and far from just 'the trans one'. I have huge respect for Jeph in this.

For anyone (like me) who wants to go back and find the Wedding arc it starts roundabout here.

Really looking forward to being part of the forum, and please, pick me up on anything if I make a tit out of myself.

I forget about it all the time too.  She's very well written and everyone around her accepts her for for how she acts/portrays herself.  It's easy to forget she's a trans character because that isn't really her defining feature and I love that.

[War Sparrow]

I oft forget of Claire as trans until I remind myself.

I hear ya. I only remember when I come to the forums and someone brings it up.

[KOK]

(remember, in the past, REAL haters KILLED people, not just stated opinions on the internet)

If only that was a thing of the past.

Global Moderator Comment

N.B. The post that contained the quote has been removed.

[Alphawolf55]

Your right to exist is not being questioned. Of course you have a right to exist. Nobody has challenged that.

My being a woman is a non-negotiable fact of my existence which can not be haggled piecemeal away. Don't take for granted that such a debate is real and legitimate, rather than just a Domination Technique by people in an oppressor-class.

No one has said you're not a woman, no one has implied trans-women aren't real women, people have gone out of their way to express that trans-women are real women just that they have some biological differences that while superficial and not a decider on their gender do exist and might factor in someones willingness to date them just like how other superficial aspects exist factor into people's decisions.

I'm not gonna touch whether Clare has to be a representation of trans-struggle to be a legitimate character with a ten foot pole. The only thing I will say is that if felt like Jeph was pandering when he created the interns but that he decided to give Clare at least a real personality (still kind of annoyed by Gabby and Emily who I do feel exist still as pandering)

[Toe]

Being transexual has nothing to do with her character, AND THAT's what i dont like.

I would argue that that's EXACTLY how it should be - being trans is just one small aspect of who she (and other transgendered people) is as a person. If you don't like the rest of who she is, so be it, but that's pretty much a separate issue.

[Nyithra]

Ok, This is my very first and last post around here.  ¿Why did I made a account for that? Mostly just to express myself.

Look, by this point I don't even care if Marteen fucks claire. I may find the idea of ME having sex with a trasgender disgusting (Call me trasphobic all you want, I don't care) but if someone wants to do it, its their business I will not ever critique someone for their fetishes. to each their own.

Okay, wanting to have sex with someone who happens to be trans is not a 'fetish'. And finding having sex with a transgender disgusting IS transphobic, sorry to tell you. If one singular part of a person turns you off completely then there is definitely some bias at hand.

As for the rest of what you said I'm not sure how Claire's character is 'sneaky'. Does having a trans person in a comic have to equate to some sort of social commentary? Why can't she be a person that happens to be trans? Why does some sort of 'message' have to be implied by her existence?

[TheEvilDog]

Aaaand now the thread has gotten to the point where it was an interesting and amusing discussion to whaling on a dead horse.
Bravo.

[Alphawolf55]

Being transexual has nothing to do with her character, AND THAT's what i dont like.

I would argue that that's EXACTLY how it should be - being trans is just one small aspect of who she (and other transgendered people) is as a person. If you don't like the rest of who she is, so be it, but that's pretty much a separate issue.

I agree for the most part the only part I find weird is how she outright outs herself. Like it felt inorganic, like it was just an initial statement "Hey kids look we have diversity!" without doing anything with that diversity. It'd be like if instead of Tai talking about girlfriends and hooking up with girls in an organic sense she'd be like "Yeah I like girls" but then never date girls, express interest in girls. Like I felt like a more organic way of showing Clare was trans without making it about trans-issues could've been done like offhand comments about transition or side conversations.

[Valdís]

I agree for the most part the only part I find weird is how she outright outs herself. Like it felt inorganic, like it was just an initial statement "Hey kids look we have diversity!" without doing anything with that diversity. It'd be like if instead of Tai talking about girlfriends and hooking up with girls in an organic sense she'd be like "Yeah I like girls" but then never date girls, express interest in girls. Like I felt like a more organic way of showing Clare was trans without making it about trans-issues could've been done like offhand comments about transition or side conversations.

It needs to be blatant because of the Null Hypothecis. Emphasis on the cis. Anyone not explicitly stated otherwise people will consider cis, due to cisnormativity. Just as how people presume characters in books are white for no reason, or project heterosexuality onto characters even when none is mentioned (and trying to argue characters with very, very blatant hints otherwise still aren't anything but hetero).

Oh, and yeah, don't presume avoiding transness is a goal for everyone. I wear a pendant by our very own CaspianSeaMonster, for instance. For many of us it's important to not give into societal pressures to have it as a shameful secret. Y'know.. Pride. Not going around discussing medical stuff with random people, which is generally an uncomfortable demand from cis people rather than something I bring up myself, but, like, discussing stuff with friends who Get It.

But Claire probably doesn't/didn't really have anyone like that on the main cast of the comic, so she's mostly avoiding it as a topic, but not wanting to hide it from her closest friends. In that sense just an outright statement without random convos makes sense.

[HeavyP]

This is why I left social media entirely.  This thread started off in the usual fashion, hit a warm and fuzzy crescendo with a bit of the usual bickering about friends/more-than-friends and hopes for attachments to other characters (all of which is both entertaining and enjoyable conversation)....and then it all turned to ashes in my mouth with people screaming at each other, posting hyperbole and "facts", taking potshots (some deserved, some not), and has generally become the equivalent of someone shitting in the hot tub.

I may just be a lurker, but this reminds me of why I lurk instead of getting too attached.  I'm going back to just enjoying the comic every morning and avoiding the forums entirely.  May all of you who are intelligent and caring community members continue to do so, and may the rest be devoured by demon bandicoots.

[Toe]

Like it felt inorganic, like it was just an initial statement "Hey kids look we have diversity!" without doing anything with that diversity.

Well, look at it this way: Jeph has done FAR more with the token transgendered girl than he did with the token black girl.

[Alphawolf55]

I agree for the most part the only part I find weird is how she outright outs herself. Like it felt inorganic, like it was just an initial statement "Hey kids look we have diversity!" without doing anything with that diversity. It'd be like if instead of Tai talking about girlfriends and hooking up with girls in an organic sense she'd be like "Yeah I like girls" but then never date girls, express interest in girls. Like I felt like a more organic way of showing Clare was trans without making it about trans-issues could've been done like offhand comments about transition or side conversations.

It needs to be blatant because of the Null Hypothecis. Emphasis on the cis. Anyone not explicitly stated otherwise people will consider cis, due to cisnormativity. Just as how people presume characters in books are white for no reason, or project heterosexuality onto characters even when none is mentioned (and trying to argue characters with very, very blatant hints otherwise still aren't anything but hetero).

Oh, and don't presume avoiding transness is a goal for everyone. I wear a pendant by our very own CaspianSeaMonster, for instance. For many of us it's important to not give into societal pressures to have it as a shameful secret. Y'know.. Pride.

It doesn't need to be blatant in a comic, that's one of the strong points of a comic. Literally someone has to do is during Clare's daily schedule panels put her getting hormone therapy or anything. Something that say to anyone with a brain "She's transperson but it doesn't define who she is" the way Jeph did it  screamed "Let me make a big deal that she's trans but don't expect anything out of it"

Well, look at it this way: Jeph has done FAR more with the token transgendered girl than he did with the token black girl.

Yeah I'm not amused by that shit to be honest.

[Aziraphale]

Being transexual has nothing to do with her character, AND THAT's what i dont like.

I would argue that that's EXACTLY how it should be - being trans is just one small aspect of who she (and other transgendered people) is as a person. If you don't like the rest of who she is, so be it, but that's pretty much a separate issue.

I agree for the most part the only part I find weird is how she outright outs herself. Like it felt inorganic, like it was just an initial statement "Hey kids look we have diversity!" without doing anything with that diversity. It'd be like if instead of Tai talking about girlfriends and hooking up with girls in an organic sense she'd be like "Yeah I like girls" but then never date girls, express interest in girls. Like I felt like a more organic way of showing Clare was trans without making it about trans-issues could've been done like offhand comments about transition or side conversations.

Maybe it's just me, but I've never had a one-size-fits-all outing experience. When people have come out to me in one way or another, I don't think there's a little manual somewhere that they consulted first. Never having been on their side of the situation, I can only guess/empathize that it probably involved a bit of mental calculus as to how "safe" it'd be to come out to me, how I might react, what I might or might not tell other people, and a whole host of other stuff that I'm probably totally missing because, again, that's not my lived experience.

With that being said, for me (again, speaking from my own limited experience), something about Claire's coming out to Marten rang true to me. It wasn't played for shock value, or as an exploitative plot hook. To me, it read as someone deciding she trusted someone else enough to come out to him, and maybe fumbling with it a bit because hey, it's awkward sometimes, and you also never know how the other person's going to take it.

The point is, people come to that point in a way that feels right to them (or at least as close to right as they can get, depending on circumstances). The timing, the words, and all the rest aren't always what they'd planned or what you'd expect -- sometimes blunt, sometimes very circumspect; sometimes eloquent, others halting -- but that's just how life is sometimes. It's not always going to be in a way that fits some grand narrative arc or some dramatic reveal; life ain't always like the movies. Similarly, sometimes our fiction ends up being as untidy as life itself.

Hope this gets my point across, even if it's not as well put as I'd like.

[davedig]

What I like also about the last two strips, aside from all the squee, is the second panel of Thursday's comic where Claire starts rubbing her head. It has a very 'ugh that band was killing me, oh shoot I forgot to buy milk, got to get that form in on time.' A million mundane thoughts in that head then suddenly 'hellooooooooooooooooo' in the third panel.

[reicreature]

I think though, Marten has known about Claire from the beginning and such "soul searching" is something that comes along after feelings are had. Also Marten was raised in a family that is not part of societal gender and sexual norms, so it might not be that difficult for him to confront.

I think it's very wrong to say that Claire's tran-ness isn't a part of her character and a little after the wedding arc they go into her fears on this very thing, that cuddling and other intimacies with a boy will lead to freak outs.
People are people first, the other details are more nuanced.

In other words, if this story was exclusively Claire's it might focus more directly on certain issues, but because there is more of an outsider's perspective we're not privy to all of the internal issues that might be and they get revealed over time as story telling progresses. 
And every female character in QC has some issues that come apparent over time, be it Faye's trauma to Hannelore's struggle with mental illness...Claire is no different, she has her internal struggle.

I am not trying to be dismissive when  I say that having a romantic relationship with a transgendered person is no different from a romance with a cisgendered person. I have seen problems arise between partnerships where a person transitioned away from the gender that their partner is attracted to...but not as many problems when people have matched up post transition.

As for those that think it's disingenuous that Claire outted herself early on, from my own life experience my friends came out to me within weeks to a month of meeting them. I can't speak to their motivations about outing themselves, but it was pretty early on in the friendship when it happened.  so, for me anyway, Claire disclosing her status to Martin and Emily seemed pretty normal.

[Alphawolf55]

I don't have a problem with how Clare outed herself but it feels disjointed by a narrative perspective. Stories have a flow and when you devote a certain amount of attention on an issue it can't be just put to the side at least story wise.

Also all the QC girls have issues except for Tai it seems, or is her being creepy her trait?

You're not allowed to get angry with people pre-emptively, you're entitled to your emotions of course but how you act on them before you even hear them out is entirely on you as an individual regardless of the topic.

[Aimless]

To the extent that it should be done at all, I think that it is too  early to judge the way Jeph's decided to write Claire's character. It's very easy to get caught up in thoughts about how things should have been done, indeed would have been done had we been holding the pen, but this is one of those situations when it may be better to just see where the ride takes us rather than giving in to the urge to get trapped in a destructive and wholly unnecessary fight. I think we can all of us live with the way Jeph's writes claire, and I think most of us will eventually find that he'll do her character justice. Peace

[Smashwidget]

Do these threads frequently devolve from "OMG KYOOT" or whatever to abstract flamewars over sexuality and gender and other real-life issues?
Anyways, I don't see why Claire's status as a trans character matters; she's pretty much an adorably shy book-nerd who wears her heart on her sleeve (I don't know if that's the right saying, I'm talking about how she doesn't have a pokerface like at all) and makes amazing puns, and being trans doesn't really matter to her character.

[Aimless]

As for the rest, I strongly urge you to consider or reconsider  whether or it is appropriate or worthwhile to express what are essentially opinions and matters of taste,  about a work of fiction, in a way that actually hurts some people far more than the comic offends your literary sensibilities. Maybe this isn't the best discussion to have. If you nevertheless feel there something to discuss here, the DISCUSS forum may be a better place to try. I haven't been here long enough so I don't know for sure but this feels like a bad conversation

[efrumttr]

Claire's coming out to Marten was very similar to how I came out to my best friend. It wasn't at a lakehouse, granted (god I wish one of my friends had a lakehouse, that'd be awesome), but I wasn't planning on telling him at all that night nor were we talking about anything remotely related to the subject. It was very out of the blue, and I'm still not sure why I decided at that moment to do it lol. But I did. Same thing happened with a few other people as well. For other people, like my parents, I did come up with a premeditated plan beforehand on where/when I wanted to tell them and what I wanted to say when I did.

Bottom line, I don't think there was anything inorganic (word I saw used above) about how Claire did it. Sometimes it happens that way. And I definitely don't agree with the idea that because it was abrupt means it was necessarily just to 'get it out of the way' so that QC could have a trans character, nor was it Jeph screaming anything about diversity or inclusiveness even.

[MooskiNet]

Hi there.  Made an account to come here and post 'cause something to say and whatnot.

Dude is telling a story.  It's a good story, obviously; he's got quite a few people (including me) interested in how it comes out.  Most of the people who like the story have some opinions about how things are going at this point.  That's kinda cool, 'cause it indicates emotional investment in the story, something most writers love to see.

That said, it's a bloody story, and it's being told by someone else.  The storyteller may have a relationship story arc in mind, or this may be a blunder on the part of one or both of the characters, or the storyteller may be trollin' the shit out of you, but getting bent out of shape about any of it is a bit on the silly side.  I personally hope Marten and Claire become a couple, 'cause I like them both and he's been alone too long and she will love him like no tomorrow if he gives her a chance, but if it turns out it was a dream and halfpint has been whispering redhead porn dialogue in his ear, okay.  Jeph's the storyteller, and I've spent five years loving his story.

Rest is details and overthinking a plate of beans, as they say in my hometown.