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This week on QC...

Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*
- 122 (56.7%)
Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.
- 32 (14.9%)
Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes
- 7 (3.3%)
A solid week of Steve eating cereal
- 9 (4.2%)
Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives
- 45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 203

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04


Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 32   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT: 2806-2810 (6th - 10th October 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread  (Read 167392 times)

Pilchard123

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'Nose Grows Some' is the final track on Tomorrow's Modern Boxes. Dunno if it's relevant.

http://boulter.com/anagram/ Have at it
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Ustrello

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I think someone said it earlier but nose grows is a song title from a new album and hatching a plan makes sense. Marten was saying when stuff comes our way we will talk about it and figure it out
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Aziraphale

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And not just nuts.  Say hello to my friend apple butter, completely unlike butter yet a loudly obnoxious partner in crime that elevates toast from meh to marvelous (especially when paired with, you got it, butter).



And pumpkin butter. Two of my favorite tastes of fall (especially on French toast, with gobs of butter).

Yeah. I like the arc. Wrt marten's character development, he has taken step after step, lesson after lesson to get where he is now. It was neither a sudden character change to get them to hook up, nor do I expect the development to stop after he got the girl. Jeph certainly has a plan, and I can only guess how much fun he had watching the community squirm over the last few strips. And squee today.

This. I think a lot of the back-and-forth about whether this is out of character for Marten, or happening too soon/too quickly comes down to a disagreement between some people taking the current story arc more or less in isolation (in which case, as I said before, sure it's drastic) versus looking at Marten's development over the (very) long haul.

Re: veggie burgers: I've had only a couple that were any good, though I keep trying. I'd just as soon have a good falafel, or just marinate and grill a portobello mushroom -- portobellos taste closer to meat than anything else that hasn't come off an animal, and you don't even have to process them or do much to them.
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aphanisis81

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"I don't understand why veggie burgers are a grey area for you."

It's a vestige of the days when I only ate store-bought  veggie burgers and they would make them looks as close to burgers as possible, which usually meant they looked like college dining hall burgers. They would literally take some sort of blowtorch-device to put "grill marks" on them. The whole thing just screamed fake food because of the manufacturer's desire make it seem "real." Now that I make my own, whether from lentils and mushrooms or black beans and quinoa (and nutritional yeast, ALWAYS), it's not really such a gray area.
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Re: nose grows some:
it reminded me of: http://www.oocities.org/sunsetstrip/backstage/4183/me/DrSeuss.html

Re: Marten's smoothness
he's just getting really good rolls on charisma right now... he was kinda due

Re: ClaireMom's glasses
what happened to them?

Re: Moderators doing moderation
Mods rock... nice reaction time , Loki

Re: squee
Squee II Electric Squeegaloo: Keep on Squeein'
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Smallest

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And not just nuts.  Say hello to my friend apple butter, completely unlike butter yet a loudly obnoxious partner in crime that elevates toast from meh to marvelous (especially when paired with, you got it, butter).
(click to show/hide)

And pumpkin butter. Two of my favorite tastes of fall (especially on French toast, with gobs of butter).


You're forgetting maple butter.
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Welu

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I'm a bit late it seems but

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I think veggie burgers are a gray area. They approximate the experience of eating a (ham)burger, but really, why should beef have a monopoly on a patty between two pieces of bread? I have a dynamite lentil-mushroom burger I got from vegan/ultrarunner Scott Jurek, if you're interested.

Because words have meaning, and people thinking they can just use a word any way they want to refer to things they are not are going to be the downfall of civilization.  Burger is short for hamburger, a hamburger is a patty of ground beef on a sandwich.

Mind you, your lentil-mushroom sandwich sounds pretty tasty, but it is not in any way a burger. 

Warning - while you were reading 12 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Seriously?  In the time it takes me to rant about words?
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Sapere

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I've been reading/lurking for forever and just had to sign up to weigh in on the events. Much good, much happy. :3
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Aziraphale

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And not just nuts.  Say hello to my friend apple butter, completely unlike butter yet a loudly obnoxious partner in crime that elevates toast from meh to marvelous (especially when paired with, you got it, butter).
(click to show/hide)

And pumpkin butter. Two of my favorite tastes of fall (especially on French toast, with gobs of butter).


You're forgetting maple butter.

I've neither had, nor heard of, maple butter. I Googled it, and realize that I must rectify that. :)
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Steak, medium rare
2 Eggs, fried
2 Bacon
1 Pork Sausage
Coleslaw type Salad (with Tartare Sauce)
Chips (Fries, as you Visigoths from the States know them as)
2 slices Toast with Butter

Coffee - Large Flat White if you don't have the real stuff, Filter Coffee.


*Burp*
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Method of Madness

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Re: veggie burgers, a few weeks ago I had a black bean and chipotle burger at my favourite pub. I'd never had it before, but it sounded (and was) delicious. The addition of bacon made it even more so :parrot:
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Sig

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But again, how many days ago in comic time was the Emily Kiss arc?  Maybe 2 weeks?  Possibly less?  Seems like a hell of a lot of growth in a short period of time, given the response was pretty much "classic Marten."

The flow of time in the QCverse often confuses me.  I must confess that I find this arc very resonant on an emotional level, and am definitely in the category of reader with a strong identification with the characters, which naturally affects how i 'read' Marten's responses - in that, he is acting in the way that I wish I might act in the same or a similar situation.

I can't agree with this more. I have been reading for over 8 years and I too strongly identify with Marten. When he and Dora broke up I felt like I was going through it myself. Because of this I have had some very mixed feelings about the current situation that I am still processing but I honestly think they make a very cute couple and I hope this works out for both of them. They deserve it.
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2014, 19:05 by Sig »
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aphanisis81

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I think veggie burgers are a gray area. They approximate the experience of eating a (ham)burger, but really, why should beef have a monopoly on a patty between two pieces of bread? I have a dynamite lentil-mushroom burger I got from vegan/ultrarunner Scott Jurek, if you're interested.

Because words have meaning, and people thinking they can just use a word any way they want to refer to things they are not are going to be the downfall of civilization.  Burger is short for hamburger, a hamburger is a patty of ground beef on a sandwich.

Mind you, your lentil-mushroom sandwich sounds pretty tasty, but it is not in any way a burger. 

Warning - while you were reading 12 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Seriously?  In the time it takes me to rant about words?

Considering there are only 4 posts between my veggie burger explanation and your post here, I'm not sure how the 12-post notification is possible.

If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix. Unless you're a hardcore prescriptivist, I don't see any way around the argument that burger, in modern common usage, denotes malleable foodstuffs molded into a patty that is then cooked.

Also, as much as I like a good semantics argument, that wasn't really the issue. The issue is the contents of vegetarian food that aspire to look like meat, not their presentation. If someone rolled ground tempeh and pinto beans seasoned with cumin and chili powder into a sausage shape, awesome. But things that are stylized to look like meat but aren't meat, more often than not, are crap. That was more the discussion we were having (I think).
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2014, 15:01 by aphanisis81 »
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no one special

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I just... I just don't get it.     :psyduck:

I don't see how Marten has fallen for Claire.  I don't see how they have any sort of special connection.  I mean, he tried to go with Faye, Dora, and Hanners first, and the only reason he invited her to the wedding was because she had a car.  They didn't have any moments at the wedding, or at the reception.  Even after the reception, at the moment where they supposedly first connect - it's just a look/drunk cuddle.  A few comics later, they talk it out, and everything goes back to normal. 

Then marten has his little curiosity about Emily, and then "oh look, he's drunk with Claire again"!  She's clearly had a thing for him, but he's neither done nor said anything that would make anyone think he likes her - he's had conversations, but nothing intimate - but oh, he's drunk with her again... and now all of a sudden he has feelings for her? 

I'm just not buyin' it. It truly pains me to say it, 'cause I've been reading this comic for YEARS, and I've loved Jeph's work, and I've bought QC stuff from him to support him,  but I think this might be a tipping point.  It feels like getting Marten into another relationship just for the sake of getting him into another relationship, and nothing more.  I love Jeph's work, but I'm having real trouble following this move.  Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?  I just...

I don't see it.
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TomOBedlam

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I don't see how Marten has fallen for Claire.  I don't see how they have any sort of special connection. 
...
Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?

It amazes me how many different ways there are to read this arc - we each see it slightly - or very - differently, I guess.  I don't have any trouble at all seeing this as an organic development, as Marten has been changing over the years, and there seems to be enough information in the story to justify at least the beginnings of a relationship.  Where it goes from here is anybody's guess (and even Jeph might be surprised - there are other examples of characters running out of the control of their creators). 

I think the heart you are looking for is present, but it is subtle and easy to miss.  There is great depth in the body language of both characters in the last few strips - personally, I think this is some of the best work Jeph has ever done.

I hope you don't give up on it.  I'm sure there are more suprises to come :-)
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Method of Madness

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?
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MooskiNet

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It's funny - I'm pretty sure Jeph's had this in mind for a while, at least since early June.  Marten, though - I think he got a couple or four drinks in him, put his hands in Claire's hair and found out where his heart was all at once.  The narrative there is sparse, and Jeph's commentary seems to indicate he'd rather go with fewer words of dialogue rather than more, but I can easily put myself in Marten's place - once upon a time I discovered I was crazy about a girl while I was helping her walk a few feet over to her crutches.  Before she put her arm around my neck, I'd never thought of her as anything more than another student in my art class.

Maybe that's what it is - if you can identify with this situation, it makes you squee.  If you can't, it makes you scratch your head.
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aphanisis81

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?

Exactly. We take hamburger to mean beef burger even though it's made from beef. Pork burgers do exist, but they must be denoted as such. That's why I qualified the discussion with "modern common usage." Regardless of etymology, ham- in this case is a prefix meaning it's a traditional burger made from the charred flesh of dead cows (as I believe Faye once put it). But burger is also open to a variety of other prefixes and modifiers.

Descriptivism, yo.
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Ustrello

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?

Cheeseburger Cheeseburger, no coke pepsi
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grouchygizmo

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Personally, I think it was always there.
-They hang out a lot at the library. 
-When Marten goes to CoD, he takes Claire.
-She comes to visit him at a popular hangout of his.
-She has stated that she feels comfortable with him.
-He always seems to look at her. (This might just be my opinion.)
-He asks her to come and hang out with him and his friends. And to Marten, his friends are his family, so this is a big deal. But he always treated Claire a little differently then his other friends, as well. (I don't know where I am going with this, so I'm gonna stop. I'm lazy.)

And I would go through the archives and find strips for each of these... but I am really lazy and that's a lot of comics to go through.
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aphanisis81

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I think it's important to note the weirdness of the forum right now: Discussions about one of the biggest developments in almost 3,000 strips are alternating with a conversation about the socio-linguistic subtleties of the word "hamburger," a topic we only landed on because of pancakes.

Best. Fan community. Ever.
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Method of Madness

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?

Exactly. We take hamburger to mean beef burger even though it's made from beef. Pork burgers do exist, but they must be denoted as such. That's why I qualified the discussion with "modern common usage." Regardless of etymology, ham- in this case is a prefix meaning it's a traditional burger made from the charred flesh of dead cows (as I believe Faye once put it). But burger is also open to a variety of other prefixes and modifiers.

Descriptivism, yo.
No, that's not what I was saying. Hamburger=burger is what I was saying. If you just say "burger" without a modifier, beef burger is implied just as strongly as "hamburger" without modifiers. You could call a veggie burger a veggie hamburger, but that's unwieldy so nobody does.

Aphanisis, now I wonder if anyone's had a burger wrapped in a pancake instead of a bun.
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MooskiNet

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Aphanisis, now I wonder if anyone's had a burger wrapped in a pancake instead of a bun.

Yes.  But then, I'm from Florida, where it's not unheard of to have a bacon cheeseburger with a Krispy Kreme donut as the bun.
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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?

Yeah, but the english language has a lot of flexibility behind the rules of how it works. Burger can also mean cheeseburger, because life without cheese is meaningless. Another example: -gate as a suffix means a scandal, but there's not like some rule that it has to take place at some old hotel just because the original did.
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aphanisis81

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If burger meant hamburger by default, it wouldn't require the prefix.
It's not a prefix, burger is just short for hamburger. (From Hamburg, Germany) Also, think of it this way, if ham was a prefix, wouldn't hamburger be a pork burger?

Exactly. We take hamburger to mean beef burger even though it's made from beef. Pork burgers do exist, but they must be denoted as such. That's why I qualified the discussion with "modern common usage." Regardless of etymology, ham- in this case is a prefix meaning it's a traditional burger made from the charred flesh of dead cows (as I believe Faye once put it). But burger is also open to a variety of other prefixes and modifiers.

Descriptivism, yo.
No, that's not what I was saying. Hamburger=burger is what I was saying. If you just say "burger" without a modifier, beef burger is implied just as strongly as "hamburger" without modifiers. You could call a veggie burger a veggie hamburger, but that's unwieldy so nobody does.

Aphanisis, now I wonder if anyone's had a burger wrapped in a pancake instead of a bun.

According to the law of Weird Food Quantum Mechanics, yes, your thinking of that burger option has caused it to exist.
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T

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You are wrong in two points.
Yes, woman past 44 can get pregnenant. The chances are smaller but it is not even close to "cannot get" the main concern is on genetic problems like down's syndrome.

And I don't think Claire's mom look that old, she looks pretty youthful (and hot)

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/surrogate-mother-61-gives-birth-to-her-grandson/blogEntry?id=17151493&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.br%2F

I said via their own eggs.  The woman in the linked article carried her daughter's pregnancy to term. 

My wife is 43.  I don't think you can't be hot at that age, or youthful.   :psyduck:  But I think the wrinkles around Clairemom's eyes are supposed to convey a somewhat older status.  Might be a tad younger than Martin's Mom at 56, but not much.
That was a link about surrogate mother. But if you want a link about older mothers fine.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50

Anyway none of these prove anything because they are just anetoctal evidence. Probably the point you are trying to make is that a woman doesn't produce eggs after menopause and that is correct but you got it wrong at the age, menopause usually occurs between 45 and 55 and just stepping on the 45 mark doesn't makes women stop producingceggs. So considering that Claire's mom is between 42~48 years old probably she is still fertile. Claire could ask her mom to get some eggs frozen for latter use just in case.
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Aphanisis, now I wonder if anyone's had a burger wrapped in a pancake instead of a bun.

Yes.  But then, I'm from Florida, where it's not unheard of to have a bacon cheeseburger with a Krispy Kreme donut as the bun.
The Luther?

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bhtooefr

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Although, under the current usage, the correct name for the Watergate scandal would actually be Watergategate, as Watergate would be a scandal about water, not a scandal involving the Watergate complex.
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I'm just not buyin' it. It truly pains me to say it, 'cause I've been reading this comic for YEARS, and I've loved Jeph's work, and I've bought QC stuff from him to support him,  but I think this might be a tipping point.  It feels like getting Marten into another relationship just for the sake of getting him into another relationship, and nothing more.  I love Jeph's work, but I'm having real trouble following this move.  Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?  I just...

I don't see it.

Congrats, Sir/Madam. I registered an account just to join the conversation because of you.

Have you never had a friend that suddenly became a romantic interest? It's happened a couple of times to me. Sometimes it's cause the friendship to fall apart, (I hope that's not what's going to happen here.) and sometimes it's just been a thing that runs it's natural course and then we ended it as friends. These things happen, and in reading back to the wedding arc, that's what I see here. You have two people that are friends and are comfortable around each other. Marten getting a little tipsy and playing with Claire's hair is something I could see myself doing to a friend, and when I woke up the next morning, if I remembered there being a spark of something there from the other person, I'd evaluate my feelings.

Marten having a whole speech ready to give Claire seems like something he'd have been thinking about since he got up. Maybe on his way to the diner/Claire's house. I'd be willing to bet that by the time he was at her dinner table, he had already made up his mind about how he felt about her. I know I would have by that point. These are all really reasonable conclusions. While there's a part of me that would have liked to see these thought processes and events happen in comic, I'm honestly more glad that we just skipped the crap and cut to the good stuff.

Also: *ahem* Squee.
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The Luther?

Indeed!  Damn, didn't know it'd become famous enough for the Boondocks!
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Method of Madness

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Although, under the current usage, the correct name for the Watergate scandal would actually be Watergategate, as Watergate would be a scandal about water, not a scandal involving the Watergate complex.
Ugh, I fucking hate that "-gate" became an acceptable suffix for precisely that reason.

Mooski, that episode's from a few years back. It's also how I learned about the concept of the itis (well, that name at least).
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Yeah, I'm just now realizing that I first heard about the thing in 1994, a few months after I'd moved to Florida. 

I'm further realizing that was 20 years ago.  Gonna have some emergency wine now.
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aphanisis81

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Although, under the current usage, the correct name for the Watergate scandal would actually be Watergategate, as Watergate would be a scandal about water, not a scandal involving the Watergate complex.
Ugh, I fucking hate that "-gate" became an acceptable suffix for precisely that reason.

Mooski, that episode's from a few years back. It's also how I learned about the concept of the itis (well, that name at least).

Agreed. The more that two-bit journalists perpetuate that unfortunate linguistic contortion, the more people are going to think -gate just literally means scandal. Bluh.

Also: I just realized that I've now used the adjective "linguistic" far too many times in the past few hours. Mostly to discuss burgers. I'm either a pretentious twit or have had one too many tasty IPAs (woohoo, Tuesday niiiight!!!) for a person who's been awake since 3 AM EST, and am letting work stuff bleed into what should be leisure stuff.

But to address the comic:

Wait for it...

Squee.
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T

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Aphanisis, now I wonder if anyone's had a burger wrapped in a pancake instead of a bun.

I did it once wrapped in tapioca pancake. Well, I don't really think Tapioca pancake is really a pancake, wikipedia description say flat bread or grainy pancake but I think it is closer to grilled mochi.
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kwami42

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Hatch the Plan is a song title from the Andy Stott album Luxury Problems, for what it's worth.
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Gespenst

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AHH! Things are happening! Things I like! I hope they keep happening!

I can't stop shouting! I hope this resolves itself soon!  :psyduck:
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swapna

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I'm just not buyin' it. It truly pains me to say it, 'cause I've been reading this comic for YEARS, and I've loved Jeph's work, and I've bought QC stuff from him to support him,  but I think this might be a tipping point.  It feels like getting Marten into another relationship just for the sake of getting him into another relationship, and nothing more.  I love Jeph's work, but I'm having real trouble following this move.  Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?  I just...

I don't see it.

Me neither. Probably has to do with the fact that I don't really like Claire and it's, to be honest, hard for me to gather why everybody loves her so much.  Can't see where Marten has got his feelings from, just can't. But we're very alone, so I think we just missed something and/or have a very different perception, so I'm just going to see myself out until this arc pauses ;)
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T

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I'm just not buyin' it. It truly pains me to say it, 'cause I've been reading this comic for YEARS, and I've loved Jeph's work, and I've bought QC stuff from him to support him,  but I think this might be a tipping point.  It feels like getting Marten into another relationship just for the sake of getting him into another relationship, and nothing more.  I love Jeph's work, but I'm having real trouble following this move.  Where's the heart behind it, where's the impetus?  I just...

I don't see it.

Me neither. Probably has to do with the fact that I don't really like Claire and it's, to be honest, hard for me to gather why everybody loves her so much.  Can't see where Marten has got his feelings from, just can't. But we're very alone, so I think we just missed something and/or have a very different perception, so I'm just going to see myself out until this arc pauses ;)

Because Claire is moe.
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Tub

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Yo! So did you hear about the fast food joint who had traces of pork in their vegan patties? Press refers to the incident as the ham veggy burger gate. :roll:

I don't see how Marten has fallen for Claire.  I don't see how they have any sort of special connection.  I mean, he tried to go with Faye, Dora, and Hanners first, and the only reason he invited her to the wedding was because she had a car.
She may have offered the ride as a thanks for the treatment at the party, or because she liked the idea of spending time with him, or maybe she was just bored. Either way, I doubt he accepted just because of the car - Claire just offered a ride, and he invited her to the wedding, and it's not hard to imagine that he really preferred her company over going alone.
The wedding strengthened their friendship. Time spent together, new experiences gained together. Besides the on-panel events, #2405 references quite a few off-panel events as well.

The cuddle (and its aftermath) may look like "everything went back to normal", but it did two things. First, it taught them that they can be honest with each other and work through issues. That alone is something he and Faye didn't have for a very long time, and even with Dora "working through issues" involved a lot of shouting and drama. Second, I think it forced both of them to consider whether there was more than friendship. Of course, neither dared act on it, but that wasn't "back to normal".

I'd consider them good friends at that time. They like each other, they respect each other, they trust each other (both having earned that trust), and they care for each other. Can you follow so far?


Why is Claire the right woman for him? I think it's for the same reason he's the right man for her: because he has experienced that, around her, he can just be himself. Faye used to beat him when he wasn't careful; Dora used to flip out when he looked the wrong way or said something stupid, he cannot even be open to Steve about certain issues without being mocked. Claire has a sharp wit (and I don't mean the puns), but - unlike everyone else in his life - she never makes fun of him.

So it starts with feeling comfortable around each other. Then you miss her, when she's not there. And slowly you start to realize that there are feelings, that you cannot ignore them, and that you want to act on them. It's a slow process (especially with Marten's usual processing speed), which is why it's difficult to point to a single comic and say: "There it began!". If you've never had it happen to you, it may be difficult to understand. But it happens.
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bhtooefr

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Claire has a sharp wit (and I don't mean the puns), but - unlike everyone else in his life - she never makes fun of him.
Counterargument on that one:
Quote from: Claire
Nice one, Cicero.

Granted, it is quite rare, but it does happen.
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TomOBedlam

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Claire has a sharp wit (and I don't mean the puns), but - unlike everyone else in his life - she never makes fun of him.
Counterargument on that one:
Quote from: Claire
Nice one, Cicero.

Granted, it is quite rare, but it does happen.

It would be really dull if she was perfect ;-)  I'm surely reading too much into things here, but I've always seen her expression in that panel as slightly proprietorial...
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MooskiNet

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Quote
I'm surely reading too much into things here, but I've always seen her expression in that panel as slightly proprietorial...

If you are, you're not alone.  Panel three here is the same for me.
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Middleways: webcomic / graphic novel / obsession

DSL

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Ah, c'mon, that was just a gentle josh. Laughing with, not at. It's quite Claire to me.
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"We are who we pretend to be. So we had better be careful who we pretend to be."  -- Kurt Vonnegut.

TomOBedlam

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Panel three here is the same for me.

Hell yeah!  I'd forgotten that.  She looks kinda hungry in that one, too ;-)
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Rghfrgl

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 Why am I checking the main page? I know what happens!
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Ustrello

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Why am I checking the main page? I know what happens!

Potential hope there is a double upload by mistake?
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Zwammy

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Ah, c'mon, that was just a gentle josh. Laughing with, not at. It's quite Claire to me.

Absolutely.
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"Forget reality. We're not part of the reality-based community." Skin Horse

Sig

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Claire has a sharp wit (and I don't mean the puns), but - unlike everyone else in his life - she never makes fun of him.
Counterargument on that one:
Quote from: Claire
Nice one, Cicero.

Granted, it is quite rare, but it does happen.

I would not qualify that as "making fun". That's barely a quip to acknowledge his fumble.
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