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Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*

122 (56.7%)

Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.

32 (14.9%)

Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes

7 (3.3%)

A solid week of Steve eating cereal

9 (4.2%)

Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives

45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 195

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04

[Zebediah]

Oh life, will your important lessons never cease?

Well, yes, but not in a way that you'd like. 

[Storel]

I think most likely, Marten will admit to feelings he has for Claire and will say that if she's nervous or trepidatious, he can give her time until she's ready to make that step. To which Claire will interrupt him mid-sentence with a kiss.

If this happens, I will buy you ten of whatever you're drinking/eating.

Well, some minor details differed but as far as the essence of it goes, I'd say Rubick nailed it. +10 prescience points. 

[Ustrello]

"I drank what?"

- Socrates

If only there was an exalt or an upvote button

[MooskiNet]

I'd love to be able to take credit for the line, but I first heard it said by Val Kilmer's character in Real Genius.

A long, LONG time ago.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Personally, I simply assume everyone is a woman, until proven otherwise.

In a court of law.

[Comic Strip Critic]

Great job man

Well, dang, son.

Btw mate

I don't have the spoons to articulate an eloquent position on the pernicious assumption that is the "masculine default", so I'm just going to quote Claire:

Oops. Sorry. Will an apology hug and cookie suffice?

[mvdwege]

[...] Society at large values the "Alpha" male (a phrase I've never liked, and dislike all the more since the "Men's Rights" crowd got hold of it), and has no idea what in the hell to do with people who don't, prefer not to, or can't be bothered to, conform to that role. On the other hand, as pretty much anybody who isn't cis/white/male/hetero is likely to tell you, society hasn't quite got the hang of them, either.

The constant harping on Marten's laid-back attitude as a bad thing has been getting on my nerves for quite some time now. Note very well that complete passivity is not good either; this is partly linked to simple self-preservation: you have to take care of yourself. But beyond the pathological, there is nothing wrong with not being ambitious.

In my eyes Claire is a bit of a framebuster. She turned up in Marten's life just as he was questioning himself, and the way his personality seems to be an ideal fit for her both romantically and in dealing with her issues (mostly her anxiety) feels to me a bit like it has given Marten a jolt, so that he now can start dealing constructively with his feelings of inadequacy.

[AprilArcus]

Oops. Sorry. Will an apology hug and cookie suffice?

[Tub]

Careful with the hair! Or is that supposed to be a revenge-hug?

[BenRG]

Careful with the hair! Or is that supposed to be a revenge-hug?

IIRC, Marten DID get hair in his mouth on that occasion. He swore he would never hug with his mouth open again.

[Fig]

I think his mouth wasn't open and he still managed to get hair in it. 

[cesariojpn]

It was sort of a weird way of putting D in a negative bucket with the rest of Marten's exes, and a bit of a reach as well.  Probably needs to reel that in a bit, but errbody should have a chance or three to recognize how their default responses to things can affect others.

With any luck, it'll just be 'oops, sorry about that,' and not 'dude, get a thicker skin.'

Question Marten's dating history in relation to current events, goes off the rails on tangent about a character's traits.

Priorities.

[Estron]

If the sub-plot goes one more day, here's what I'd like to see:

Marten and Claire disengage from their snuggle-hug, and she says how glad she is that Marten was so open and honest.

He responds: "Well, I wanted to make absolutely certain that my interest was --  CLAIRE!"

And then gets that same goofy expression that Claire gets when she's just made a pun and she's waiting for the other person to get it . . . .   

[Rimwolf]

He responds: "Well, I wanted to make absolutely certain that my interest was --  CLAIRE!"

That's a slender reed to build a relationship on.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Of people who've recently joined, I gotta say that April's posts are the most fun to read. Well-cited analysis? Yup. Ability to clip fitting scenes from the comic in responses where appropriate? Yup. Good thoughts in general? Yup.

I'd like to give you a high five, or something.

Also: Holy crap, we're at 25 pages and we don't even have Friday's strip yet. We might break 30 by the time it's over.

[AprilArcus]

That's a slender reed to build a relationship on.

[vforvancouver]

Great job man

Well, dang, son.

Btw mate

I don't have the spoons to articulate an eloquent position on the pernicious assumption that is the "masculine default", so I'm just going to quote Claire:

And allow me to show you a little bit of how languages work and get moulded by society itself.

I live and work in Guadalajara, Mexico, and therefore, I speak Spanish everyday. Here, all young people use a word: «güey». It is a corruption of «buey», that is, an ox or a bullock, itself a bovine trained as a draft animal, commonly a castrated adult male cattle. Everyone use it as a familiar and funny way to refer to a friend, not only present, but with whom you are speaking directly at; we use it as an intensifier,  to attract attention to something or someone, as a nickname, as an insult and as a punctuation sign.

 Cue the examples:
—How are you, güey?
—Güey, you missed the most amazing party ever, güey!
—Can you believe what that güey is doing rignt now?!
—Güey, where have you been!?
—You're exceptionally güey today, güey...

Now, and this is important, «güey» has changed from an insult used between adult males to a general-use word in less than ten years.
In 1980, it was used just as an insult among the older male population; whom actually understand what a «buey» was.
By 1986, after the Big Quake on Mexico City in 1985, and as a result of massive migration, young males started to use it as an insult.
By 1887, young girls started to use it as an expletive.
By 1989, everyone was using it as an insult without knowing what an ox was.
By 1992, «güey» was an unisex word and forgot all its original meaning, while «buey» still means «ox».
In any of the examples I delivered before, you CAN'T tell, without context, if it was pronounced by a man, a woman, or a chimera. It used to mean "emasculated bull" and now it means "dude". And it is used by boys to refer to boys, boys to refer to girls, girls to refer to boys, and girls to refer to girls, and a fukken lot of combinations and permutations between sexes and genders and whatever.

I use dude, mate, guy, bloke and even boy as a unisex word. Not gender neutral, but unisex, because usually, where I work and teach, men are majority and we see women as human beings, therefore, we integrate them in our language. It happens to me when I go to a place with a majority of women; they tend to see me as a big-stuff lifter, but still I'm a human being, and I don't mind if they refer to me, when I'm in the group, as «girl». I didn't mind when, in Italy and Germany, the feminine plural was used for our group of students, even if we where 25 guys and 10 girls; it's the way it is.

What I'm trying to say is that it's ridiculous to assume use of the masculine default is pernicious: it is part of the evolution of languages to become inclusive, and some chose to use the masculine as gender-neutral inclusive, while others use the feminine. Languages evolve; societies evolve. Even Pokémon evolve. Two hundred years ago, there where slavery; a hundred years ago, there was segregation. Now? Now we're a bunch of expletives discussing language instead of pancakes, like any civilized culture should do.

Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Just four?! We're getting slow...

[Comic Strip Critic]

Oops. Sorry. Will an apology hug and cookie suffice?

AAACK PFFFT OH GOD I THINK IT'S ALIVE

[TomOBedlam]

And allow me to show you a little bit of how languages work and get moulded by society itself. ...

What I'm trying to say is that it's ridiculous to assume use of the masculine default is pernicious: it is part of the evolution of languages to become inclusive, and some chose to use the masculine as gender-neutral inclusive, while others use the feminine. Languages evolve; societies evolve. Even Pokémon evolve. Two hundred years ago, there where slavery; a hundred years ago, there was segregation. Now? Now we're a bunch of expletives discussing language instead of pancakes, like any civilized culture should do.

Great explanataion, vforvancouver - now I need to go and re-evaluate my thinking about the word 'bloke'... 

[TieDyeKat]

Great job man

Well, dang, son.

Btw mate

I don't have the spoons to articulate an eloquent position on the pernicious assumption that is the "masculine default", so I'm just going to quote Claire:

And allow me to show you a little bit of how languages work and get moulded by society itself.

I live and work in Guadalajara, Mexico, and therefore, I speak Spanish everyday. Here, all young people use a word: «güey». It is a corruption of «buey», that is, an ox or a bullock, itself a bovine trained as a draft animal, commonly a castrated adult male cattle. Everyone use it as a familiar and funny way to refer to a friend, not only present, but with whom you are speaking directly at; we use it as an intensifier,  to attract attention to something or someone, as a nickname, as an insult and as a punctuation sign.

 Cue the examples:
—How are you, güey?
—Güey, you missed the most amazing party ever, güey!
—Can you believe what that güey is doing rignt now?!
—Güey, where have you been!?
—You're exceptionally güey today, güey...

Now, and this is important, «güey» has changed from an insult used between adult males to a general-use word in less than ten years.
In 1980, it was used just as an insult among the older male population; whom actually understand what a «buey» was.
By 1986, after the Big Quake on Mexico City in 1985, and as a result of massive migration, young males started to use it as an insult.
By 1887, young girls started to use it as an expletive.
By 1989, everyone was using it as an insult without knowing what an ox was.
By 1992, «güey» was an unisex word and forgot all its original meaning, while «buey» still means «ox».
In any of the examples I delivered before, you CAN'T tell, without context, if it was pronounced by a man, a woman, or a chimera. It used to mean "emasculated bull" and now it means "dude". And it is used by boys to refer to boys, boys to refer to girls, girls to refer to boys, and girls to refer to girls, and a fukken lot of combinations and permutations between sexes and genders and whatever.

I use dude, mate, guy, bloke and even boy as a unisex word. Not gender neutral, but unisex, because usually, where I work and teach, men are majority and we see women as human beings, therefore, we integrate them in our language. It happens to me when I go to a place with a majority of women; they tend to see me as a big-stuff lifter, but still I'm a human being, and I don't mind if they refer to me, when I'm in the group, as «girl». I didn't mind when, in Italy and Germany, the feminine plural was used for our group of students, even if we where 25 guys and 10 girls; it's the way it is.

What I'm trying to say is that it's ridiculous to assume use of the masculine default is pernicious: it is part of the evolution of languages to become inclusive, and some chose to use the masculine as gender-neutral inclusive, while others use the feminine. Languages evolve; societies evolve. Even Pokémon evolve. Two hundred years ago, there where slavery; a hundred years ago, there was segregation. Now? Now we're a bunch of expletives discussing language instead of pancakes, like any civilized culture should do.

Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Just four?! We're getting slow...

We have similar words in our circle, usually profane, such as b*tch and f***.  Older generations, mostly from political strains in the area, commonly use the term "sunuvabidge" in conversation.  Amongst close friends, "doofus" is popular.

[Platypodes]

That "FFFFFF" image is a really perfect one to work into conversation. 

Also, I'm fairly confident that if anyone tried to cut Claire's hair it would simply break the clippers/scissors.  That girl has some THICK hair.

Or Claire's hair would swallow up the scissors, and they'd never be seen again.

Is it bad that I forgot Claire was trans before reading yesterday's comic? Do I need to up my trans-awareness?

I think it's awesome that you can read that a character is trans and be so comfortable with that fact that you can forget all about it and focus on other things about her.  In a perfect world, we'd all be a lot less inclined to identify people by such things.  Go you.

[vforvancouver]

• It demonstrates disregard for my transgender history. Being referred to with masculine terminology can be triggering for trans women, due to our history of having to fight against public misperception.
  

I am not what you could call a man, even if I look like one. I am a chimera of XY, XX and XXY chromosomes. My DNA depends which part of my body you're testing. My birth certificate is blank in the square marked "sex". I am my own twin sister and my own twin brother. I am not exactly a man, nor a woman, and the only way I can have offspring is by cloning.  Yeah, I know what it means not to fit in a society. Yet I fit, I fight, and I man up. Or I human being up, if you prefer.

[AprilArcus]

I am not what you could call a man, even if I look like one. I am a chimera of XY, XX and XXY chromosomes. My DNA depends which part of my body you're testing. My birth certificate is blank in the square marked "sex". I am my own twin sister and my own twin brother. I am not exactly a man, nor a woman, and the only way I can have offspring is by cloning.  Yeah, I know what it means not to fit in a society. Yet I fit, I fight, and I man up. Of I human being up, if you prefer.

Being trans or intersex does not make someone incapable of transphobia or gender essentialism, and should not be whipped out as a sort of Palladium when called out on poor behavior. I've done transphobic things in the past, despite being trans. I've also hurt people's feelings by belaboring an intellectual point when empathy was the course of action called for.

[vforvancouver]

Being trans or intersex does not make someone incapable of transphobia or gender essentialism, and should not be whipped out as a sort of Palladium when called out on poor behavior. I've done transphobic things in the past, despite being trans. I've also hurt people's feelings by belaboring an intellectual point when empathy was the course of action called for.

Can we then agree to disagree instead of making this a storm in a glass of water?

Wait... I'd love to have a miniature storm in my living room...

[AprilArcus]

Can we then agree to disagree instead of making this a storm in a glass of water?

You mean I'll agree to keep getting upset when people casually misgender me, and you'll agree to keep calling people "ridiculous" when they express dismay at being casually misgendered?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

And allow me to show you a little bit of how languages work and get moulded by society itself.

Words are weird. They mean exactly what most people think they mean, which is literally how "literally" has come to mean "figuratively, but, like, intense, man!"


I picked that example for a reason. Literally doesn't mean just figuratively, in its new meaning. It's understood to be hyperbolic. This is eye rolling, expletive spitting, soil your undergarments level figurative. As in "ReindeerFlotilla is LITERALLY beating us over the head with this example!"

What I am belaboring is connotation. How we use a term--how we mean to use it--isn't necessarily in line with what the term connotes. Using "literally" as an intensifying term in certain terms would be confusing. "Dude, she tried to hit on that indie boy, and literally fell on her face." Here it's not clear if she made a bad pass and was rejected, or if she tripped and landed face first.

Gendered terms connote gender. That's not necessarily intrinsic--we've definitely gotten to the point that "guys" tends to be plural for everyone present unless the context indicates a sweeping generalization about men, or a specific group of men ("Keep it down, guys" vs "Guys only want one thing" vs "I'm going to go hang with the guys.") Similarly, with dude. Saying "dude! Chill!" is unisex, but "check that dude out" would tend to connote a man as the object.

My point: it is not unreasonable to think that the words in question (man, dude, mate) were intended as gendered. Yes, they can be unisex, but how communication is received is just as important as how it was intended. Whether a word can mean a thing has to be balanced against what it means to the listener in that context.

The best example I can come up with comes from Star Trek.

Pulaski: Dat-uh/Date-uh? What's the difference?
Data: One is my name. The other is not.

If a person objects to being referred to in terms that can imply gender, it is not unreasonable to acknowledge and respect that. To me, this is no different than Dat-uh/Date-uh, Jeff/Jeph, Martin/Marten, Fay/Faye, etc. The intentions can be understood but the objection is no less valid. Some people will care. Some won't. Respect is the acknowledgment that adjustment to those who do care costs very little. It's basically free.

[Is it cold in here?]

Is it bad that I forgot Claire was trans before reading yesterday's comic? Do I need to up my trans-awareness?

If I were Claire I would regard that as a relief.

[vforvancouver]

Can we then agree to disagree instead of making this a storm in a glass of water?

You mean I'll agree to keep getting upset when people casually misgender me, and you'll agree to keep calling people "ridiculous" when they express dismay at being casually misgendered?

Yes. It happens to me. I don't mind.

http://9gag.com/gag/aBQgd3O

[AprilArcus]

Yes. It happens to me. I don't mind.

[vforvancouver]

Yes. It happens to me. I don't mind.

Told you!

[MooskiNet]

Yes. It happens to me. I don't mind.

Tastes vary; seems like you're intelligent enough to recognize that just because you don't feel something doesn't mean no one does, and that if someone tells you something hurts them, you'd give it a miss out of basic decency.

[cesariojpn]

Also: Holy crap, we're at 25 pages and we don't even have Friday's strip yet. We might break 30 by the time it's over.

Dollar says it's 35.

[vforvancouver]

Tastes vary; seems like you're intelligent enough to recognize that just because you don't feel something doesn't mean no one does, and that if someone tells you something hurts them, you'd give it a miss out of basic decency.

Perhaps it is just me being sick (I've been in bed, with 38.5°C, almost all day, and I'm usually not; both sick, and on the forums), but I believe we don't achieve anything if we don't do something for fear of hurting someone whom may or may not exist. Perhaps is is hardened skin; I had to choose between being a boy or a girl and chose not to being one of those to begin with. It still hurts if I can't find a date because they where expecting me to be something I am not, but for those who chose to see me as what I am I am grateful and I refuse to give them crap about the war between genders and me. That's just me. I am me.

And ibuprofen. I am me and ibuprofen right now.

[MooskiNet]

I believe we don't achieve anything if we don't do something for fear of hurting someone whom may or may not exist.

I can follow that, and I even agree to a certain extent.  However, unless we get all philosophical about whether April or anyone else who has expressed displeasure about being referred to incorrectly actually "exists," that argument sort of falls flat.

Sorry to hear about you being sick; hope you feel better soon.

[vforvancouver]

Sorry to hear about you being sick; hope you feel better soon.

Thanks. Perhaps when I get better I may align with April.

[GarandMarine]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address. Originally it  was mate or gemate in Middle Low German, "One eating at the same table" or "messmate" and referred to a Companion, coming into usage around the 14th century. A more modern usage arising in the late 15th Century refers to a sailor on a ship, usually in a specific role. Gunner's Mate, Bosun's Mate, etc, (Note that in modern navies you can find women in all of those positions and they are all referred to the same. Ex. My friend is Gunner's Mate Second Class Ashley Whatshername, and eventually evolved into a generic term for a sailor. "Hey mate! Avast matey! etc" Outside of our beloved naval linguistics in the Navy, Marines and Merchant Marine, it's been picked up as slang for a friend by the Australians who originally wanted to sound more like pirates, and spread from there.

Tally ho mates.

[greywolfe]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

[Is it cold in here?]

Accidental rudeness is still rudeness even if the other person is OK with it. When someone says they're offended the proper response is usually not to get defensive.

[valkygrrl]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

Australians mate with people as a form of greeting?

[Smallest]

If the sub-plot goes one more day, here's what I'd like to see:

Marten and Claire disengage from their snuggle-hug, and she says how glad she is that Marten was so open and honest.

He responds: "Well, I wanted to make absolutely certain that my interest was --  CLAIRE!"

And then gets that same goofy expression that Claire gets when she's just made a pun and she's waiting for the other person to get it . . . .   

I misread this somewhat like how it's edited- Basically, Claire says she's happy Marten was open and honest, then goes and we're not sure why

[Thedrd0nna]

So, am I the only one who noticed that Momma Augustus chugged like a cup or so of orange juice?

[Smallest]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

Australians mate with people as a form of greeting?

Have you not watched the Discovery Channel?

[Zebediah]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

Australians mate with people as a form of greeting?

They are very friendly people.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

Australians mate with people as a form of greeting?

Have you not watched the Discovery Channel?

I remember something about bonobos...

[Storel]

That is, pairs like "actor"/"actress" level towards the masculine "actor", but feminine words like "stewardess" are never extended to include males, they are replaced with terms like "flight attendant".

As someone who is interested in linquistics but never studied it formally, I always wondered why they didn't just go with "steward" instead of "flight attendant". To me, "steward"/"stewardess" are the same kind of pair as "actor/actress".

Then again, some people feel strongly enough that the male term should not become the default that they invented unisex terms like "waitron" (instead of "waiter"/"waitress"), which always sounded to me like a robot waiter. So maybe that's why "flight attendant" took over, as sounding more gender-neutral?

[AprilArcus]

Thanks. Perhaps when I get better I may align with April.

Dum spiro, spero.

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address. Originally it  was mate or gemate in Middle Low German, "One eating at the same table" or "messmate" and referred to a Companion, coming into usage around the 14th century.

The word "bad" originates from Old English "baeddel" meaning "effeminate" or "hermaphrodite", and acquired its current meaning in the same way that "gay" is now used by grade schoolers to indicate something of low quality. Despite its origin as hate speech, I use the word "bad" in my everyday lexicon, because it would be absurd to claim that the 14th century definition of a term informs the way that it is understood in colloquial usage. So any argument that "mate" was gender-neutral seven centuries ago does little to demonstrate that it is gender-neutral currently.

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

'Mate' is the accepted Australian form of casual greeting 

In American English it would be appropriate to refer to a mixed gender group as as "you guys", but it would be extremely weird to address a woman as "a guy I know". I assumed "mate" it similar, since in popular media I have only ever seen it used to address single men or groups, never individual women. But I am not a speaker of Australian English, so if you are, I'll take your word for it.

[vforvancouver]

Yaaay, new comic...

[CUBErt]

Well, Faye's close. Just scratch the "sexy" bit.

[MooskiNet]

It''s a bit sad, but I've been so caught up with Marten and Claire that it sorta seems weird to get a comic with Faye and Dora in it.

Heh; I'm such a dork.  At this point I'd have been good with four panels of Claire and Marten just staring at each other, with minor variations on their smiles.

[McFace]

That's about what I expected from Tai.

I really hope that when Faye/Dora sees one of them at some point in the near future they don't lead with a question about sex. That might not end well.