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Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*

122 (56.7%)

Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.

32 (14.9%)

Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes

7 (3.3%)

A solid week of Steve eating cereal

9 (4.2%)

Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives

45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 195

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04

[Emoroffle]

I'm with Tai on this one. Anyone else notice the look of utter mischief on Dora's face?

[FunkyTuba]

Re: font changes
Jeph usually draws QC on his big ol cintiq which is a) connected to his Mac which has an assload of fonts and b) massively high resolution

He also has been experimenting with using a smaller tablet (not sure of the brand) that hooks up to some kind of other OS (I think windows) that doesn't have the same fonts

If you see a difference in typefaces it probably means he's on the road or using the tablet at a coffeeshop and doesn't have his usual fonts available.

[GarandMarine]

I have resolved to re-read QC in its entirety.
Wish me luck, ladies, gents, and everything in between and/or variations thereof. I'll see you on the other side of the Feels Express.

Ganbarekudasai!

[Is it cold in here?]

There goes Tai, speaking for a large segment of the forum. 

I just hope they don't vocally read too much into things the next time they see one of them. That could be awkward, given that this may be one of the first relationships in the QCverse that's actually taking things slow and easy (for the moment, anyway).

You're hoping for things not to be awkward?

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Wait, you're right. This could lead to hilarity. And also, awkward situations is this comic's bread and butter.

Let the hilarious misunderstandings commence!

[SubaruStephen]

Why won't this 'ship sink?


Cause Claire boyant.

[valkygrrl]

[

Lemme guess: flak from TERFs?

TERF is a slur maybe you could use some other term? biological essentialist?

If "TERF" is a slur, then so is "bigot", and we'll rapidly be out of words to describe people who think some people are less human than others. Me, I'd like to live in a world where the only slurs relate to people's attitudes toward the humanity of their fellow people.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Well, that, and I don't tend to worry as much about the feelings of people who spend their time denigrating other people, as well as denying either their existence or right to exist (referring here to TERFs, not to valkygrrl, whose motives and alignment I don't known and so won't impugn).

ETA: I'm referring specifically to the likes of Cathy Brennan, valkygrrl. I don't disagree with the idea that gender is essentially a social construct; I disagree with dehumanizing people (to say nothing of the fact that their rhetoric and actions discredit feminism generally, to the point where I wonder if they were either influenced, or  invented, by the "Men's Rights" crowd).

I see it as an accurate description, and certainly wouldn't use it as a slur. However, with that being said, if my using the term offended you, please accept my apologies.

Fair enough, apologies for overreacting.  The word has been thrown at me before, it makes one touchy.

[iandanger]

While this is considered acceptable in some settings, it is against many style guides and considered incorrect grammar in newspaper publishing and many academic settings, something I find very annoying. It's also not functionally a neuter pronoun, ideally one would been added, but xe, shim etc haven't caught on as of yet. Apparently in Great Britain it is much more accepted than in the US.

Language evolves. The other new pronouns sound, at least to me, odd. Why invent a new pronoun convention when we can just adapt an old one by adding new meaning?

Ideally we don't have plural and singular cases used in the same sentence. More importantly it means people make grammatical mistakes they aren't aware of in formal writing because the informal form is considered wrong. Ideally we adopt a new word for it.

[Arkantos]

While this is considered acceptable in some settings, it is against many style guides and considered incorrect grammar in newspaper publishing and many academic settings, something I find very annoying. It's also not functionally a neuter pronoun, ideally one would been added, but xe, shim etc haven't caught on as of yet. Apparently in Great Britain it is much more accepted than in the US.

Language evolves. The other new pronouns sound, at least to me, odd. Why invent a new pronoun convention when we can just adapt an old one by adding new meaning?

Ideally we don't have plural and singular cases used in the same sentence. More importantly it means people make grammatical mistakes they aren't aware of in formal writing because the informal form is considered wrong. Ideally we adopt a new word for it.

Well, then someone forgot to tell this to English, since we already have a pronoun that is both singular and plural, "you".

[Rghfrgl]

Faye probably assumes as much given recent events (Unless Jeph drops a bombshell......). How she is about transgendered folks is up in the air, seeing we can't assume from the facts that she has a Lesbian Sister and works with a Boss that is in a Lesbian relationship. While she is front the south, she does mention that she hates the religious attitude of the place.   

I see Faye's stance as being 'if she makes you happy I'm happy for you', but I could absolutely see her saying something unintentionally hurtful if she found out. I don't think JJ would write that, but just how I see her. Subtlety and sensitivity not being her strong points.

Otherwise I don't see any problems in the primary cast.

I know he doesn't want to use Claire as a drama bomb, but I do have to admit if there were some drama I'd be interested to see how Marten reacted to it.

[iandanger]

While this is considered acceptable in some settings, it is against many style guides and considered incorrect grammar in newspaper publishing and many academic settings, something I find very annoying. It's also not functionally a neuter pronoun, ideally one would been added, but xe, shim etc haven't caught on as of yet. Apparently in Great Britain it is much more accepted than in the US.

Language evolves. The other new pronouns sound, at least to me, odd. Why invent a new pronoun convention when we can just adapt an old one by adding new meaning?

Ideally we don't have plural and singular cases used in the same sentence. More importantly it means people make grammatical mistakes they aren't aware of in formal writing because the informal form is considered wrong. Ideally we adopt a new word for it.

Well, then someone forgot to tell this to English, since we already have a pronoun that is both singular and plural, "you".

That doesn't change the state of play in formal American English, where they is a plural pronoun, and using it in reference to a singular antecedent will lose you grade points. The fact that this change has occurred in British English doesn't mean it will be accepted in the US, adopting a proper neuter pronoun would be ideal, yo.

[Arkantos]

While this is considered acceptable in some settings, it is against many style guides and considered incorrect grammar in newspaper publishing and many academic settings, something I find very annoying. It's also not functionally a neuter pronoun, ideally one would been added, but xe, shim etc haven't caught on as of yet. Apparently in Great Britain it is much more accepted than in the US.

Language evolves. The other new pronouns sound, at least to me, odd. Why invent a new pronoun convention when we can just adapt an old one by adding new meaning?

Ideally we don't have plural and singular cases used in the same sentence. More importantly it means people make grammatical mistakes they aren't aware of in formal writing because the informal form is considered wrong. Ideally we adopt a new word for it.

Well, then someone forgot to tell this to English, since we already have a pronoun that is both singular and plural, "you".

That doesn't change the state of play in formal American English, where they is a plural pronoun, and using it in reference to a singular antecedent will lose you grade points. The fact that this change has occurred in British English doesn't mean it will be accepted in the US, adopting a proper neuter pronoun would be ideal, yo.

I have used singular they in essays and not lost any points because of it. The simple fact is this: we won't adopt a new, gender neutral pronoun. There are too many proposals and no single regulatory body for English to enforce the change. What if MLA adopted xe/xir and APA adopted sie/hir, while the media used singular they? That's a massive amount of confusion and inconsistency that could easily be resolved by simply allowing the language to evolve naturally and adopting the most common usage. My point is that the language will probably not evolve to include an entirely new neuter pronoun. Though not common, singular they has been used for a long time (since Chaucer) as a gender neutral, singular pronoun, so I would expect that to be the direction our language goes in. On top of that, American exposure to British media is at the highest point it's ever been. Britishisms are entering American speech more and more, so I'd also expect the British usage to be adopted by America rather than have America invent a new pronoun.

[HES]

The simple fact is this: we won't adopt a new, gender neutral pronoun. There are too many proposals and no single regulatory body for English to enforce the change.

(click to show/hide)

[Arkantos]

The simple fact is this: we won't adopt a new, gender neutral pronoun. There are too many proposals and no single regulatory body for English to enforce the change.

(click to show/hide)

Which is precisely why I say we let the language evolve as we always have.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Perhaps this is more fanboy speak, but I expect anything Jeph might be planning for future awkward hilarity is going to be more subtle than intolerance from the core cast.

Just a feeling. Jeph hasn't treated Claire as a moral issue yet. The one time he came close was entirely natural and basically a throw away line aimed at demonstrating Clinton's over protective streak.

Maybe this has been a long, slow build up to an after school special moment. It just doesn't seem that way.

[iandanger]

Well, that disagreement already exists on many fronts in formal English, I'd still prefer to force everyone to use the Baltimore "yo" if only to give props to the clever kids who more or less accidentally evolved the language on their own. But I'm a proponent of "xe" generally speaking, and am completely biased in that direction.

[Method of Madness]

Wait, "yo" is a pronoun? I thought it was an informal greeting.

[Arkantos]

Wait, "yo" is a pronoun? I thought it was an informal greeting.

It is an informal greeting in most of the country, except in Baltimore, where it is apparently a gender neutral pronoun. Personally, I want to know how that particular evolution of language happened and who allowed it, so we can punish them.

On a more serious note, I prefer to use singular they unless a person indicates they prefer a different pronoun.

[Durmatagno]

I have resolved to re-read QC in its entirety.
Wish me luck, ladies, gents, and everything in between and/or variations thereof. I'll see you on the other side of the Feels Express.

I do this every couple of months when I have nothing else to do. Without a job, all I can do is study, and send out applications, so I have a lot of spare time. Nice to watch the art evolve though.

[Is it cold in here?]

Global Moderator Comment

Thank you to everyone who's hitting the Report to Moderator button on rule-breaking posts. Thank you very much. You're helping head off flame wars, and by the way you're all showing good judgement about what's a rules violation and what's something you disagree with.

[cesariojpn]

Hell, I think that the only other person in the entire comic that could even "know" Claire is Transgendered......would be Veronica Vance!!

I doubt it. In the original version of this arc, Veronica joked about Claire and Marten having children together. Which, if she'd suspected Claire was trans, would have been beyond the pale in cruelty.

We are talking about a woman who used to beat people for a living and was/possibly very active in the Fetish Community now. Plus given she knows people in some circles, I wouldn't put it past her to possibly "recognize" Transgendered folks and other "Alt-Sex" folks. She did this with Tai in a completely spontaneous and risky manner. Of course she does talk before thinking: she did this with Hanners.

I know he doesn't want to use Claire as a drama bomb, but I do have to admit if there were some drama I'd be interested to see how Marten reacted to it.

Veronica did note once Marten was into pushy women. So maybe he's a pushover.

[Euthemes]

"They" is both gender- and number-neutral, like "on" in French.

[SubaruStephen]

It occurs to me that Faye may be suspecting sexy shenanigans without knowing that Claire is trans... I wonder if that means anything...?

 

It means she's expecting the next time she sees Marten, he'll be hiding hickies and grinning like an idiot  (like most guys who've gotten laid...after going a long time without a meaningful relationship) and for Claire to walking bow-legged.

[KOK]

I have a degree in formal linguistics and I am familiar enough with the process of language change to know that the scenario you describe - semantic leveling from marked masculine terms to unmarked neuter terms - does not happen in reverse. That is, pairs like "actor"/"actress" level towards the masculine "actor", but feminine words like "stewardess" are never extended to include males, they are replaced with terms like "flight attendant". I recommend Deborah Tannen's essay, "Marked Woman, Unmarked Man" for an introduction to this topic.

That is not entirely true. The Danish "sygeplejerske", nurse, now may be a man or a woman. Probably because "sygeplejer", without the female -ske ending, used to be a distinct job title, requireing much less education.

[KOK]

Well, then someone forgot to tell this to English, since we already have a pronoun that is both singular and plural, "you".

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

[AprilArcus]

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

Sure, the Queen of England speaks that way. Some languages don't have a singular/plural distinction at all.

[GarandMarine]

Hell, I think that the only other person in the entire comic that could even "know" Claire is Transgendered......would be Veronica Vance!!

I doubt it. In the original version of this arc, Veronica joked about Claire and Marten having children together. Which, if she'd suspected Claire was trans, would have been beyond the pale in cruelty.

We are talking about a woman who used to beat people for a living and was/possibly very active in the Fetish Community now. Plus given she knows people in some circles, I wouldn't put it past her to possibly "recognize" Transgendered folks and other "Alt-Sex" folks. She did this with Tai in a completely spontaneous and risky manner. Of course she does talk before thinking: she did this with Hanners.

I know he doesn't want to use Claire as a drama bomb, but I do have to admit if there were some drama I'd be interested to see how Marten reacted to it.

Veronica did note once Marten was into pushy women. So maybe he's a pushover.

Doesn't mean Martenmom would recognize Claire as being a trans woman. Tai lives her alt status. It's her style. Claire is very clean cut and "feminine" for lack of a better term. Trans women and men don't look like anything in particular, besides women and men, and fucking hell even keeping the gender binary in place have you seen how many varieties we come in?

[GarandMarine]

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

Sure, the Queen of England speaks that way. Some languages don't have a singular/plural distinction at all.

All remnants of monarchy including speech patterns will improve humanity drastically by being purged from it utterly.

[Leveton]

I wanna know what Dora told Tai. I mean, if she said what Faye said, Tai's just hearing second-hand news about something that maybe happened, and the response doesn't go with that.

I bet it was something quick, like "omg marten+claire <3" since the comic seems to indicate this conversation, text, and reply happened really fast, so it had to be a short message to type out.

[AprilArcus]

We are talking about a woman who used to beat people for a living and was/possibly very active in the Fetish Community now.

Right exactly. The kink community is incredibly scrupulous about establishing consent, so that people can play with risky things in a safe space and explore "consensual non-consent" within explicitly negotiated parameters. Veronica is a professional domme, not a professional rapist.

She did this with Tai in a completely spontaneous and risky manner.

Brash but not risky - nobody but her, Tai and Marten were around to hear that interaction.

[Aziraphale]

"consensual nom-consent"

This may be my favorite typo ever. 

[KOK]

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

Sure, the Queen of England speaks that way. Some languages don't have a singular/plural distinction at all.

He does not. She distinguishes "we" and "us". Which has nothing to do with number, but it still a distinction not made in the second person.

[HES]

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

Sure, the Queen of England speaks that way. Some languages don't have a singular/plural distinction at all.

She doesn't often. Residents of Yorkshire, on the other hand...

[Leveton]

Jeph is going to make Pintsize the voice of reason entirely to fuck with us.

In any case, Pintsize wouldn't be more of an ass about it than he is about literally everything else.

[Netrunner]

In any case, Pintsize wouldn't be more of an ass about it than he is about literally everything else.

It's Pintsize talking about asses that has me worried.

[cesariojpn]

I bet it was something quick, like "omg marten+claire <3" since the comic seems to indicate this conversation, text, and reply happened really fast, so it had to be a short message to type out.

Fair note, much like any story, time is "Lubriciously Slow" in the QC universe. I think it's been like what, 2 years time wise since the begining?

Trans women and men don't look like anything in particular, besides women and men, and fucking hell even keeping the gender binary in place have you seen how many varieties we come in?

Honestly, who thought it was a good idea to "sublet" the genders even more confusingly?

It's Pintsize talking about asses that has me worried.

He'll play a song. Question is: Sir Mix-Alot or Nikki Minaj?

[hedgie]

Which is really, really wierd. Can you imagine dropping "I", "me" and "we", using only "us" in the first person?

Sure, the Queen of England speaks that way. Some languages don't have a singular/plural distinction at all.

All remnants of monarchy including speech patterns will improve humanity drastically by being purged from it utterly.

Wasn't it Diderot who said the day we know true freedom is the day that the last king is hanged by the entrails of the last priest?

[GarandMarine]

Quit talking dirty to me Hedgie.





...in public any way

[AprilArcus]

Fair note, much like any story, time is "Ludicriously Slow" in the QC universe. I think it's been like what, 2 years time wise since the begging?

At most! It's been summer vacation since #1978!

[BenRG]

It was a funny strip. I can totally see the CoD ladies being basically a gossip circle.

Whilst I don't think Marten will be indiscreet, I suspect that this may lead to Claire possibly being 'outed' to a wider group, just because Faye, Dora and Tai can't understand why Marten and Claire didn't jump right to sex. Marten will probably just say Claire has issues so they're going slow. The ladies, out of a desire to help, will be nosey and possibly guess some aspect of Claire's situation. My feeling is that they would be generally supportive, although I wouldn't be surprised if Faye was tactless at times (because she's Faye). Dora and Tai have probably faced discrimination at times; they would probably sympathise with her.

That said, I've long suspected Tai was a hopeless romantic!

[Blackbird]

I was just thinking that it might be a little weird if everyone is super accepting once the secret's out. I think this is a perfect opportunity to show how tasteful questions should be asked and what healthy boundaries and whatnot should be set.

Also. I just remembered. Pintsize will eventually find out. It'll be vulgar, but he could be the voice of the uneducated masses. It could be a great opportunity for education on the subject as a whole. I realize it would be a bit on the preachy side, but seeing from the way some of the conversations here have gone, it might be nice to have a popular comic have that discussion. Just my two cents for the moment.

As others have pointed out, Pintsize did once "exchange data packets" with a male AnthroPC that looked female.  He's not likely to say anything derogatory in that regard.  I think his vulgar humour will come out in the crass "so whose dick is bigger?" sort of way.  [Preemptive note to help the mods: DO NOT discuss this question. ]

I really want to say May would have the biggest problems, but androids who want to be fighter jets probably really understand body dysmorphia.

[Netrunner]

He'll play a song. Question is: Sir Mix-Alot or Nikki Minaj?

I could have lived without watching that Nikki Minaj video. Anyone got some brain bleach?

[BenRG]

I really want to say May would have the biggest problems, but androids who want to be fighter jets probably really understand body dysmorphia.

May strikes me as an 'out and proud'-type personality; she probably wouldn't understand why Claire didn't rub her status in others' faces just to annoy them. Her impulse control problems would be the big issue but she's also so new that she'd be one of the last to know. 

No, if anyone causes trouble, it will be someone unexpected acting thoughtlessly and/or out of the belief that they are 'protecting' or 'helping' Marten or Claire.

[valkygrrl]

He'll play a song. Question is: Sir Mix-Alot or Nikki Minaj?

I could have lived without watching that Nikki Minaj video. Anyone got some brain bleach?

almost offered you ponponpon but after viewing the Nikki Minaj link you've suffered enough.

[HES]

I could have lived without watching that Nikki Minaj video. Anyone got some brain bleach?

Like with TVTropes, there's an art to not clicking bad youtube links.

[ZoeB]

Is it bad that I forgot Claire was trans before reading yesterday's comic? Do I need to up my trans-awareness?

No, it means you've reached the next level.

[cesariojpn]

I could have lived without watching that Nikki Minaj video. Anyone got some brain bleach?

Not my fault, you're on your own buddy.

I really want to say May would have the biggest problems, but androids who want to be fighter jets probably really understand body dysmorphia.

She did comment that her Hologram form was like....well......

[Leveton]

Whilst I don't think Marten will be indiscreet, I suspect that this may lead to Claire possibly being 'outed' to a wider group, just because Faye, Dora and Tai can't understand why Marten and Claire didn't jump right to sex.

Entirely independent of the fact that Claire is trans, she doesn't seem like the type to jump into bed with someone immediately, anyway. She seems more apt to take it slow and be sure that she wants to be with someone before sexy times start.

[Lubricus]

Whilst I don't think Marten will be indiscreet, I suspect that this may lead to Claire possibly being 'outed' to a wider group, just because Faye, Dora and Tai can't understand why Marten and Claire didn't jump right to sex.

Entirely independent of the fact that Claire is trans, she doesn't seem like the type to jump into bed with someone immediately, anyway. She seems more apt to take it slow and be sure that she wants to be with someone before sexy times start.

Besides, how is it any of their friends' business when (or how) they have sex? They'll ask, sure, but they have no right to expect an honest answer.

[ZoeB]

So then if I have a forgeworld army does that make me like doubly vindicated?