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Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*

122 (56.7%)

Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.

32 (14.9%)

Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes

7 (3.3%)

A solid week of Steve eating cereal

9 (4.2%)

Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives

45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 195

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04

[Platypodes]

Y'know, sometimes it really jars and annoys me when Jeph writes strips that reference the forums instead of keeping things realistic within the QC-verse.  This is one of those.

I was looking forward to hearing Tai's reaction to this--I thought it would be something funny and absurd and just the sort of thing that Tai and only Tai would say.  Instead, she says something that nobody would say in real life about their friends, something that doesn't sound at all natural in context.  It breaks the flow of the story, and one of the things I love so much about QC is the way it flows, the comic (and sometimes dramatic) timing that always works so well.

Meh.  I don't usually post to grumble, but I kinda feel like I was just jolted out of a story I was super absorbed in and back into the drab reality of sitting in a chair looking at some pixels on a screen.

Whilst I don't think Marten will be indiscreet, I suspect that this may lead to Claire possibly being 'outed' to a wider group, just because Faye, Dora and Tai can't understand why Marten and Claire didn't jump right to sex. Marten will probably just say Claire has issues so they're going slow. The ladies, out of a desire to help, will be nosey and possibly guess some aspect of Claire's situation. My feeling is that they would be generally supportive, although I wouldn't be surprised if Faye was tactless at times (because she's Faye). Dora and Tai have probably faced discrimination at times; they would probably sympathise with her.

Remember, though, Dora took things slow with Tai too.  And while she and Faye discussed it a little, nobody made any kind of a thing about it or suspected that there were any secret reasons.

Claire is obviously shy and inexperienced.  That right there is a clear reason for taking things slow--no need to say she has "issues" to justify their not doin' it on the first date.  Hell, lots of us who aren't shy and inexperienced don't like to rush sex in a new relationship.

By the way, I really, really hope that at some point we get to see Claire do a booty dance.

Is it bad that I forgot Claire was trans before reading yesterday's comic? Do I need to up my trans-awareness?

No, it means you've reached the next level.

That's... what I really wanted to say earlier, but you phrased it so much better than I did. 

[admiral-bell]

Y'know, sometimes it really jars and annoys me when Jeph writes strips that reference the forums instead of keeping things realistic within the QC-verse.  This is one of those.

I was looking forward to hearing Tai's reaction to this--I thought it would be something funny and absurd and just the sort of thing that Tai and only Tai would say.  Instead, she says something that nobody would say in real life about their friends, something that doesn't sound at all natural in context.  It breaks the flow of the story, and one of the things I love so much about QC is the way it flows, the comic (and sometimes dramatic) timing that always works so well.

Meh.  I don't usually post to grumble, but I kinda feel like I was just jolted out of a story I was super absorbed in and back into the drab reality of sitting in a chair looking at some pixels on a screen.

But Tai writes slashfics in her spare time. It seems perfectly in character to me.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

It was a funny strip. I can totally see the CoD ladies being basically a gossip circle.

Whilst I don't think Marten will be indiscreet, I suspect that this may lead to Claire possibly being 'outed' to a wider group, just because Faye, Dora and Tai can't understand why Marten and Claire didn't jump right to sex. Marten will probably just say Claire has issues so they're going slow. The ladies, out of a desire to help, will be nosey and possibly guess some aspect of Claire's situation. My feeling is that they would be generally supportive, although I wouldn't be surprised if Faye was tactless at times (because she's Faye). Dora and Tai have probably faced discrimination at times; they would probably sympathise with her.

That said, I've long suspected Tai was a hopeless romantic!

Suspected? #2705 was a bit more definitive about it.

[HES]

Suspected? #2705 was a bit more definitive about it.

Marten's body language in panel two is perfect

[Orkboy]

Somehow, I think we all knew that Tai would react like this.  I think she reads the forums.  She is the QC version of Deadpool, i.e. fully aware that she's a comic character.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Suspected? #2705 was a bit more definitive about it.

Marten's body language in panel two is perfect

There's more Tai-is-a-romantic where that came from.

[Platypodes]

But Tai writes slashfics in her spare time. It seems perfectly in character to me.

Hmm.  That's a good point.  Still feels weird to me, but you've at least given me something to help me suspend my disbelief.  Thanks!

[ankhtahr]

Well, to be more precise, she writes slashfic exploring each pairing of Marten and the interns. She writes a lot of fanfic, spends some of her spare time with Harry Potter Flash LARP, so I'd say she's quite deeply seated in fandom. Using the word "ship" doesn't seem out of character at all.

[ZoeB]

Fair enough, apologies for overreacting.  The word has been thrown at me before, it makes one touchy.

Valkygrrl - if you don't want me to use it here, I won't.

Why? Because I'm a Feminist, but not Radical, certainly not Trans Exclusionary. If someone is Gender Critical (I'm more Gender Sceptical) and has been lumped in with those they don't want to be associated with - if they get hurt by the term - then the same rule applies as for all minorities when they object to someone not of that minority using a term they see as hateful.

You don't give excuses -
"But it was a term they invented to describe themselves!"
"But it just means Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist"
- no matter how true.

You listen to them. You treat them with respect. You stop using it. Period.

Valygrrl, you and I disagree on this area, maybe less than it appears as I'm Gender Sceptical, a difference of degree rather than kind, but enough so that I feel we see each other in opposite camps.

Gender Critical Feminism is a minority, a subset of Feminism, just as Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists are a subset of them, and the truly nasty people like CB a further subset of them. You, a Gender Critical Feminist, are in a minority here, and in the world at large. I'm not a member of that minority.

When a member of a minority I don't belong to tells me a term that has (however inaccurately) been applied to them is offensive... then the justifications, the excuses, however true they may be, do not matter. What matters is that if I use that term, I am hurting someone.

I have many grievous faults. I do try *really hard* though not to be a hypocrite. And apart from that, hurting you would be unjust and very wrong, you don't deserve it. Oh, I'll disagree stridently, but intentionally hurt you? That would be hurting myself.

No apologies necessary. I'm sorry you were hurt. It's your call, not mine, as to whether I use this term in future, bearing in mind I'd never use it to refer to someone like you, no matter how far apart we may be. That's just... trying to be a Decent Human Being.

[Kugai]

Devo's new single.

And totally in character for Tai.

[Thrillho]

For the record "Mate" is not a gendered form of address.

I'm not sure where you're from, but in British English "mate" is very strongly gendered. Most people would not call a woman "mate" here.

So am I and I call everyone mate, as do all the people I know of all genders. My girlfriend's best friend is trans and she refers to him as her 'best mate' (said friend goes with male pronouns in fairness).

[valkygrrl]

Fair enough, apologies for overreacting.  The word has been thrown at me before, it makes one touchy.

Valkygrrl - if you don't want me to use it here, I won't.

Why? Because I'm a Feminist, but not Radical, certainly not Trans Exclusionary. If someone is Gender Critical (I'm more Gender Sceptical) and has been lumped in with those they don't want to be associated with - if they get hurt by the term - then the same rule applies as for all minorities when they object to someone not of that minority using a term they see as hateful.

You don't give excuses -
"But it was a term they invented to describe themselves!"
"But it just means Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist"
- no matter how true.

You listen to them. You treat them with respect. You stop using it. Period.

Valygrrl, you and I disagree on this area, maybe less than it appears as I'm Gender Sceptical, a difference of degree rather than kind, but enough so that I feel we see each other in opposite camps.

Gender Critical Feminism is a minority, a subset of Feminism, just as Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists are a subset of them, and the truly nasty people like CB a further subset of them. You, a Gender Critical Feminist, are in a minority here, and in the world at large. I'm not a member of that minority.

When a member of a minority I don't belong to tells me a term that has (however inaccurately) been applied to them is offensive... then the justifications, the excuses, however true they may be, do not matter. What matters is that if I use that term, I am hurting someone.

I have many grievous faults. I do try *really hard* though not to be a hypocrite. And apart from that, hurting you would be unjust and very wrong, you don't deserve it. Oh, I'll disagree stridently, but intentionally hurt you? That would be hurting myself.

No apologies necessary. I'm sorry you were hurt. It's your call, not mine, as to whether I use this term in future, bearing in mind I'd never use it to refer to someone like you, no matter how far apart we may be. That's just... trying to be a Decent Human Being.

Not lumping people in with those they don't want to be associated with is the best thing you could have said here, A+.

Different camps? Absolutely. Opposing? Some of the time, probably most of the time certainly.  It is a political difference not a personal one. Cathy and Gallus are  loathesome, they speak out of animus. Neither of us plans that. And if anything heated simply must be said there's an open invitation to take it to private message. I'll answer. You might even find some of my positions surprising even if no less odious given the ones you appear to hold.

[BenRG]

Suspected? #2705 was a bit more definitive about it.

Marten's body language in panel two is perfect

There's more Tai-is-a-romantic where that came from.

Something tells me that Claire and Tai being sisters-in-all-but-blood when it comes to romance can only make things... interesting for Marten. Interesting in the Chinese sense.

[Gnomeybum]

Just my linguistic five cents here, but I'm British, I'm female, and literally everyone I know uses 'mate' non-gender-specifically. It is associated with 'lad' culture, but it is not exclusive to men. I have even heard it on the news before, referring to a 'girl and her mates' (reason I remember it was because it seemed like a remarkably informal thing to say on the news). It is not gender-specific, really.

[bhtooefr]

One thing to note is that this environment is leaning towards en-US, although because of the nature of the Internet, it's more a generic en, and it's best to strive for terminology that's not offensive to speakers of any English dialect or sub-dialect in use on here. It's clear that in some regions, "mate" is gendered, even if in others, it isn't, so it's probably best to not use it in contexts where it being gendered causes problems.

[Lubricus]

It's best not to mate on the forum, in other words? 

[valkygrrl]

It's bet not to mate on the forum, in other words? 

Why? Have you had an offer?

[Lubricus]

Argh! That's "best", of course.

[Lubricus]

It's bet not to mate on the forum, in other words? 

Why? Have you had an offer?

Not on this forum, no. I have been on forums where such invitations were quite commonplace, though. 

[bhtooefr]

Well, that particular form of mate isn't gendered in any dialect, so I wouldn't have any qualms about using it.

However, well... mating on the forums (at least in the CHATTER subforum, and I'd expect that that would extend to the other subforums) is frowned on: http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,28905.0.html

[Honkytonk]

I think it's perfectly in character for Tai to say that, especially to Dora (probably knowing Faye will see it too).

I don't think Claire has told many people other than Marten and Emily, and they haven't exactly gone around blabbing about it. That'll be an interesting couple of strips, if Jeph even mentions it. He's previously stated, repeatedly, that that part of Claire's life won't be mined for drama, so I think it may well be an unmentioned off-strip conversation.

[BenRG]

I've already got my head-canon on how the Marten x Claire intimacy issue will be handled:

They come back to Marten's apartment from a date, clearly quite excited and start making out in the middle of the lounge. Marten then carries Claire bridal-style into his bedroom. Jeph brings down the brightness of each panel until the last panel is totally black with just speech bubbles of them whispering sweet nothings to each other. The next strip is just a single panel of Marten and Claire, spooned up in bed together (a bit like Angus and Faye a few strips back) with blissful smiles on their faces. The strip after that is Faye coming into CoD with huge bags under her eyes; she tells a worried Dora that she is into love and its free expression but not when the lovers in question are loud about it for three damn hours!

"Yeah, our Marty has stamina when he's inspired," is Dora's enigmatic reply.

The point is that we never hear about the mechanics and it is never an issue. All we see and all that we need to know is that they've made love and that the experience was fulfilling for them both.

[TinPenguin]

I agree, but it's unlikely we'll even see as much as that. Post-coital-snuggles, perhaps; the rest, not so much.

If Jeph has any class at all (spoiler, he has fucking lots of it), the genital-speculators will never have any kind of closure. Taking every other relationship in QC as example, at some point it'll be made clear - to both audience and fellow cast - that they are sleeping together, and that'll be that. Cis people are private enough about their sex-life (unless they are Dora), so just consider how much more closed the door is for trans people. That door is bolted.

[KOK]

Marten has told both Dora's father and Tai that Dora gave him blowjobs. Handjobs too, in the case of Dora's father.

[Lubricus]

But neither fact says anything about Dora's genitals, I might add.

[KOK]

But neither fact says anything about Dora's genitals, I might add.

"Your daughter has had my penis in her mouth" does she something about Marten's, though. And it reveals details of their sex life.

This does not mean that anything will revealed about Claire and Marten's sex life, obviously.

[Lubricus]

Indeed! My point is that while Marten might talk about his own junk, I doubt he'd say anything about anyone else's.

[McFace]

I've already got my head-canon on how the Marten x Claire intimacy issue will be handled:

They come back to Marten's apartment from a date, clearly quite excited and start making out in the middle of the lounge. Marten then carries Claire bridal-style into his bedroom. Jeph brings down the brightness of each panel until the last panel is totally black with just speech bubbles of them whispering sweet nothings to each other. The next strip is just a single panel of Marten and Claire, spooned up in bed together (a bit like Angus and Faye a few strips back) with blissful smiles on their faces. The strip after that is Faye coming into CoD with huge bags under her eyes; she tells a worried Dora that she is into love and its free expression but not when the lovers in question are loud about it for three damn hours!

"Yeah, our Marty has stamina when he's inspired," is Dora's enigmatic reply.

The point is that we never hear about the mechanics and it is never an issue. All we see and all that we need to know is that they've made love and that the experience was fulfilling for them both.

This would be good.

And pretty much in line with any other sex information we have about anyone else (pretty sure the most we know about is Sven given we know what position he was doing it in).

[Freelance_Physicist]

This seemed apropos.

[Method of Madness]

Going back to the ages thing, I'm pretty sure Dora said she was 28 when she went on her date with Jim, and 26 right before she started dating Marten, so assuming not much time has passed since the Jim date, so it was about two years from the beginning of the comic to that, and maybe what, a few months since then?

[hakko504]

Going back to the ages thing, I'm pretty sure Dora said she was 28 when she went on her date with Jim, and 26 right before she started dating Marten, so assuming not much time has passed since the Jim date, so it was about two years from the beginning of the comic to that, and maybe what, a few months since then?

To be precise, in 1954 Jim states that he's 41 and Dora denies having turned 30. Then in 1958 Jim says that Sam is 13, and Dora then proceeds to the conclusion that Jim must have had her when he was Dora's current age, i.e. 28. And this was before the trip to space and the summer interns appeared, so at least a few months have gone by since.

[marbledmurrelet]

Ooh, can someone find me the strip with the Tai-Marten-binder conversation? How could I not remember that happening? I'm not too surprised about not having noticed (until it was mentioned a few pages ago) that Smif is an all-girl college, but I've always been fascinated by anything beyond the hetero-cis-normative, so I'd typically remember such things. Heh.

Regarding Claire and Marten, I'd find it unrealistic if everything went just fine and everyone was just cool with Claire being trans (IF that would become known at all, it sure doesn't have to). And VERY unrealistic if Pintsize wouldn't raise the Forbidden Question, seeing as genitals are pretty much his favourite thing and possibly his main occupation.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Pintsize isn't exactly a role model. He may well say something crass, but my money is still on him attempting to be too helpful, because that's more likely to break Marten's brain. Little fucker likes mayhem, not curt dismissal.

[cesariojpn]

But neither fact says anything about Dora's genitals, I might add.

I WILL NOT GROW A PENIS FOR YOU!!

Come ON, Marten, get in here and stick your cock in me already!

And there was one strip where Faye mocked Dora's biological clock, and Dora mentioned her discomfort with her uterus soon after.....

Indeed! My point is that while Marten might talk about his own junk, I doubt he'd say anything about anyone else's.

"Please keep maintaining Dora Bianchi International Airport!!"

[Lubricus]

That doesn't count - they were already talking about that area, and they weren't really talking about her genitalia, per se.

[Akima]

Speaking as an Australian, "mate" is actually still very largely bloke-speak, and rarely applied to women at all. Women *do* use the word, but much less often, and generally only when speaking to men. The use of "mate" is also very much more social-class-stratified among women than men. Personally, I only use the word ironically, towards men who are definitely not mates, but I'm possibly not a good example, because English is my second language. The genderless use of "guys", by contrast, is extremely common here, by men and women alike. On the whole, however, I would not regard Australian vernacular as a good yardstick. Ours is a language in which calling someone a "bastard" can be a friendly greeting, or earn you a broken nose, depending on who you're talking to, but that too is mostly bloke-speak.

N.B. This recording is old. Australia has had its own national anthem since 1984.

And I can totally imagine Tai using "ship" to express approval of a pairing, especially when texting.

[hakko504]

Ooh, can someone find me the strip with the Tai-Marten-binder conversation? How could I not remember that happening?

1302?

[cesariojpn]

That doesn't count - they were already talking about that area, and they weren't really talking about her genitalia, per se.

"I WILL NOT GROW A PENIS" doesn't count? You cray.

Ooh, can someone find me the strip with the Tai-Marten-binder conversation? How could I not remember that happening?

1302?

I thought it was in relation to the subject of Breast Binding, not Shibari given the context of the hot topic debate right now.

[BenRG]

If the Marten x Claire thing lasts, an interesting future plot arc might be her moving into Marten's apartment. Naturally, Mrs A will become a regular visitor, at least for a short time, worrying endlessly about how Claire is fitting in.

Faye was basically okay with being a third wheel when it was Dora but I'm wondering if she might feel that the circumstances have changed. Not only is she now in a fairly committed relationship with Angus (and I can see him proposing marriage in the not-to-distant future as a way of verifying his commitment to her despite career requirements). Additionally, Faye might consider Marten to be more invested in Claire than he was with Dora. If they are too openly emotionally intimate (and not in the silly, sophomorically crude way Marten and Dora could be), she might feel too much like the badly-fitting third wheel.

The conversation between Faye and Claire when she tells the other woman that she no longer feels at home at the apartment and is moving in with Angus could be quite emotionally charged, especially if Claire is worried that Marten may blame her for driving off his best female friend. I could see Faye concluding with something along the lines of: "He's yours to look after now, Red. He's a great guy and I think you'll do the job but if you don't...? Well, then I'll come back to snap your arms and legs."

Pintsize isn't exactly a role model. He may well say something crass, but my money is still on him attempting to be too helpful, because that's more likely to break Marten's brain. Little fucker likes mayhem, not curt dismissal.

Yes, if there is anyone likely to break a politeness taboo and openly discuss issues, it's Pintsize. That said, there is this bipolar nature to his personality. He seems to like saying crude and embarrassing things but, based on what he has said to Momo when they are in private, he takes his role as Marten's AI companion very seriously and I can't see him deliberately offending his friend and his significant others.

My guess about Pintsize is that he determined, via a complexity algorithm, that crude, offensive humour was the only thing that got under Marten's skin enough to drive him to exit his passive 'let someone else take the lead' comfort zone. My guess is that he might actually be quite nice to Claire in his unique way - by treating her as a female sex object the way he does all the other ladies.


[edit]
A couple of typos spotted and fixed

[Lubricus]

That doesn't count - they were already talking about that area, and they weren't really talking about her genitalia, per se.

"I WILL NOT GROW A PENIS" doesn't count? You cray.

Ah, I'd forgotten that. But still, it wasn't Marten that started talking about it, and Dora isn't exactly prudent about the subject at hand.

[bhtooefr]

Also, you (cesariojpn) didn't have that example in your post when Lubricus replied, I believe.

[hakko504]

Ooh, can someone find me the strip with the Tai-Marten-binder conversation? How could I not remember that happening?

1302?

I thought it was in relation to the subject of Breast Binding, not Shibari given the context of the hot topic debate right now.

974? Or check the strip by strip description in the wiki

[cesariojpn]

974?

I think thats the one in relation to the topic at hand right now.

[BenRG]

974? Or check the strip by strip description in the wiki

It never ceases to amaze me how Marten used to be so responsive - By that I mean he always let others dictate the tone and level of a conversation.

[eschaton]

I agree, but it's unlikely we'll even see as much as that. Post-coital-snuggles, perhaps; the rest, not so much.

If Jeph has any class at all (spoiler, he has fucking lots of it), the genital-speculators will never have any kind of closure. Taking every other relationship in QC as example, at some point it'll be made clear - to both audience and fellow cast - that they are sleeping together, and that'll be that. Cis people are private enough about their sex-life (unless they are Dora), so just consider how much more closed the door is for trans people. That door is bolted.

Tai took Marten with her to get her clit pierced too, so it's not like cis junk hasn't been broached already in the comic. 

Pintsize isn't exactly a role model. He may well say something crass, but my money is still on him attempting to be too helpful, because that's more likely to break Marten's brain. Little fucker likes mayhem, not curt dismissal.

Yeah.  I could see Pintsize presenting Marten with a pair of matching cockrings.  While raising one of his non-existent eyebrows. 

Then, Marten gets mad, and Pintsize asks if he picked up the wrong size and should exchange them. 

Faye was basically okay with being a third wheel when it was Dora but I'm wondering if she might feel that the circumstances have changed. Not only is she now in a fairly committed relationship with Angus (and I can see him proposing marriage in the not-to-distant future as a way of verifying his commitment to her despite career requirements).

At maximum, Angus and Faye have been dating 4-6 months in QC time.  Certainly not a year yet.  I don't think a marriage proposal is in the cards. 

[MooskiNet]

I don't think it's awkward, I think it does and will represent growth of the characters (and to some extent, the storyteller and his audience).  Things that are funny when you're ignorant of the pain they cause cease to be funny when light is let into the darkness of your ignorance.

I think using the fact that various male and female genitalia have been referred to in the past as a reason/excuse/mandate to refer to them now is silly and backward, and as the rule is patiently and consistently applied, people will realize that.

[shrike1978]

I was just thinking that it might be a little weird if everyone is super accepting once the secret's out. I think this is a perfect opportunity to show how tasteful questions should be asked and what healthy boundaries and whatnot should be set.

Also. I just remembered. Pintsize will eventually find out. It'll be vulgar, but he could be the voice of the uneducated masses. It could be a great opportunity for education on the subject as a whole. I realize it would be a bit on the preachy side, but seeing from the way some of the conversations here have gone, it might be nice to have a popular comic have that discussion. Just my two cents for the moment.

Jeph is going to make Pintsize the voice of reason entirely to fuck with us.

I think we need to remember that robot gender and sexuality is literally just a switch in the software.  That's been established in cannon.  Pintsize will understand this on a personal level better than any of the human characters could.  He'll be vulgar about it, but it won't be because of the trans thing...he'll be vulgar because he's Pintsize and that the only way he knows to be.

[eschaton]

I don't think it's awkward, I think it does and will represent growth of the characters (and to some extent, the storyteller and his audience).  Things that are funny when you're ignorant of the pain they cause cease to be funny when light is let into the darkness of your ignorance.

I think using the fact that various male and female genitalia have been referred to in the past as a reason/excuse/mandate to refer to them now is silly and backward, and as the rule is patiently and consistently applied, people will realize that.

The best humor is always transgressive (no pun intended) to some degree.  That's not to say that all transgresssion is well-executed, and that much of it can't be simply mean spirited/bigoted in the modern era.  But there is a lot of excellent art which has not just incidentally, but purposefully tried to outrage people.  The world is better for it existing. 

[Thedrd0nna]

I really want to say May would have the biggest problems, but androids who want to be fighter jets probably really understand body dysmorphia.

Moderate quibble here, but Body Dysmorphic Disorder and Gender Dysphoria are two entirely separate phenomena, both in terms of what they are and how they're treated. I point this out mainly because people tend to conflate the two in a way that implies that all trans people need is therapy-although I'm not saying that's what you're doing here. Context!

[Tub]

Let's not forget that there's a difference between the characters talking about private matters in character, where they're amongst friends, and readers speculating about private things of people who are essentially strangers.
After reading the comic for a while, one may consider the characters as friends, even family. But we're not part of their life. And we should be glad they aren't aware of our existence.

[..] it's best to strive for terminology that's not offensive to speakers of any English dialect or sub-dialect in use on here.

In other words, you think that we should use a dictionary that's even more terse than simple.wikipedia.org?

Trying to respect sensitivities is one thing, but respecting the sum of all sensitivities in existence may be impossible.