Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Now departing the USS MartenClaire *bell rings*

122 (56.7%)

Jephizba trolls us all, hallowed be the trollmaster's name.

32 (14.9%)

Spatheham and Clairemom Pancakes

7 (3.3%)

A solid week of Steve eating cereal

9 (4.2%)

Martenmom and Clairemom team up and fight crime/meddle in their children's personal lives

45 (20.9%)

Total Members Voted: 195

Voting closed: 09 Oct 2014, 22:04

[valkygrrl]

I WILL NOT GROW A PENIS FOR YOU!!

Well, this is awkward.

Why? I say that to all my boyfriends preemptively.

[McFace]

At maximum, Angus and Faye have been dating 4-6 months in QC time.  Certainly not a year yet.  I don't think a marriage proposal is in the cards.

I wouldn't put it past him. Don't know if she would accept......but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[ZoeB]

If Jeph has any class at all (spoiler, he has fucking lots of it), the genital-speculators will never have any kind of closure.

I'd be astonished if he handled the issue any other way. Any more than he'd be revealing about any other character's anatomy, Sam's for example. If you wouldn't ask a question about her body, don't ask it about Claire's. Even if you have a great curiousity about the exact changes that usually happen at puberty, Tanner stages, and how far they are along with her.

Moreover, if even mentioning that subject makes you queasy, really uncomfy, and feeling it should be out of bounds for decency's sake, you will understand how some of us feel about the issue with Claire and Marten. The mods for example. Me, too. Sam's only a child for goodness sake. Claire's only a young woman, whose road has been harder than most. Leave them in peace. To do otherwise would be distinctly creepy, and not in a good way.

Now back to this week's megadose of squee, and pancakes. The happy stuff, the things that make life a joy, if taken in moderation. I'm sure Clinton will be a great moderator when he gets a clue, though Clairmom might have a few words to say to him about that... Rather than Marten finally finding out what he wants being an end to QC, as some have feared, it will provide all-new opportunities for plot arcs, alarums, and excursions.

[GarandMarine]

Zoe is, as usual 100% correct, especially about the end of QC predictions if Marten marries Claire and opens a music store or something. Marten might get the short end, but the comic hasn't had him as permanent butt monkey for a very Long time now and hardly depends on that.to continue.

[eschaton]

I'd be astonished if he handled the issue any other way. Any more than he'd be revealing about any other character's anatomy, Sam's for example. If you wouldn't ask a question about her body, don't ask it about Claire's. Even if you have a great curiousity about the exact changes that usually happen at puberty, Tanner stages, and how far they are along with her.

Moreover, if even mentioning that subject makes you queasy, really uncomfy, and feeling it should be out of bounds for decency's sake, you will understand how some of us feel about the issue with Claire and Marten. The mods for example. Me, too. Sam's only a child for goodness sake. Claire's only a young woman, whose road has been harder than most. Leave them in peace. To do otherwise would be distinctly creepy, and not in a good way.

Now back to this week's megadose of squee, and pancakes. The happy stuff, the things that make life a joy, if taken in moderation. I'm sure Clinton will be a great moderator when he gets a clue, though Clairmom might have a few words to say to him about that... Rather than Marten finally finding out what he wants being an end to QC, as some have feared, it will provide all-new opportunities for plot arcs, alarums, and excursions.

I'll be the first to say I don't care one way or another.  But people seemed to be intimating that *any* discussion of sex involving Claire and Marten will be forever off the table due to the realms of people's sensitivity.  I just don't understand this.  People bring up sex with some graphic detail fairly frequently in the comic.  For example, Steve's TMI from 2011.  Or Tai in 2012.

This comic is not rated PG.  The main characters are all adults, and the humans (except for Hannelore) all seem to have sex lives, even if some are currently unattached.  Sex is a normal topic of discussion among adults. 

Now, Marten isn't a person who likes to kiss and tell.  And Claire is not that sexually open of a person at this time.  So it would be out of character for them personally to ever make any comments about their goings on.  But I fully expect that some people in their circle will not be so circumspect, and will either joke or make (what they see as) innocent comments. 

[Tub]

Rather than Marten finally finding out what he wants being an end to QC, as some have feared, it will provide all-new opportunities for plot arcs, alarums, and excursions.

QC cannot end yet. The final pages have been written and confirmed. It cannot end until hanners, claire and sam are ready. We're safe for now.

[BenRG]

Rather than Marten finally finding out what he wants being an end to QC, as some have feared, it will provide all-new opportunities for plot arcs, alarums, and excursions.

QC cannot end yet. The final pages have been written and confirmed. It cannot end until hanners, claire and sam are ready. We're safe for now.

Something tells me that Jeph has a suitably reflexive sense of horror towards the extreme end of his fandom. 

[pwhodges]

But people seemed to be intimating that *any* discussion of sex involving Claire and Marten will be forever off the table due to the realms of people's sensitivity.  I just don't understand this.  People bring up sex with some graphic detail fairly frequently in the comic.

Talking about what has actually been presented in the comic is one thing; talking about things that the comic has clearly not spoken of is quite another, falling into the realm of speculation, some kinds of which we forbid absolutely.  These are the rules as maintained by the mods following their understanding of Jeph's wishes.  Trying to argue against the rules is liable to lead to a bad end.

[MooskiNet]

This comic is not rated PG.  The main characters are all adults, and the humans (except for Hannelore) all seem to have sex lives, even if some are currently unattached.  Sex is a normal topic of discussion among adults.

I agree totally, as it happens.  I just think that where trans person issues are concerned, it's damnably difficult to have those discussions in a way that doesn't offend/hurt people.  Sex may be a universal, but if you're not a trans person, you can put everything you know and understand about their lives in a gnat's navel with room for two caraway seeds and an agent's heart.  Opting on the side of least harm is a good thing, yeah?

(with apologies to Fred Allen for mangling his quote)

[cesariojpn]

I think using the fact that various male and female genitalia have been referred to in the past as a reason/excuse/mandate to refer to them now is silly and backward, and as the rule is patiently and consistently applied, people will realize that.

It matters cause people say we can't talk about it, yet here we have examples of it being made. Ya can't put the genie back into the bottle once ya open it.....

I'll be the first to say I don't care one way or another.  But people seemed to be intimating that *any* discussion of sex involving Claire and Marten will be forever off the table due to the realms of people's sensitivity.  I just don't understand this.  People bring up sex with some graphic detail fairly frequently in the comic.

It's just.....complicated when it comes to sex, even when it's not about Transgender Sex. I know, I would LOVE to dissect and list examples, but any rational discussion would somehow offend someone because I broached a taboo subject or "gave a very bad example" or hell, i'd squick out people.

One thing I can say without ridiculous impunity is that when it comes to Sex in America, much talk is always on the fence between freedom of speech and "DON'T SAY THAT!!"

[pwhodges]

Sex is a normal topic of discussion among adults.

I agree totally, as it happens.

Correction: some aspects of sex are a normal topic of discussion.  I'm sure you wouldn't need to think very hard to realise that there are details you'd rather not talk about in the bus - and what you write here is much more public than that.

[cesariojpn]

Opting on the side of least harm is a good thing, yeah?

But where is that line? Ya can't tell people not to speak yet complain that people don't understand you because they pretty much have ingrained notions already due to misinformation that was perpetuated in the first place by shutting people up.

[bhtooefr]

Also, Jeph's views on things change with time. Something that he may have felt was completely acceptable when he posted it, say, way back in 2003, may not be something he considers acceptable today.

And, while that example is one where he actually went back and edited the comic... not all examples would be that bad.

[pwhodges]

Ya can't tell people not to speak yet complain that people don't understand you because they pretty much have ingrained notions already due to misinformation that was perpetuated in the first place by shutting people up.

We have considerable resources to help people understand in the Discuss! forum.  We try to direct people there as soon as they raise the matter, and if possible before then (from the rules and stickies).

[Platypodes]

Re: Claire/Marten sexytimes, while I'm certain Jeph will avoid any revelations about Claire's parts (out of sensitivity to the trans community, not because he's never talked about any other character's genitals), I hope--and, knowing Jeph's awesomeness, expect--that he won't totally avoid any comics about their sex life.  He writes about all the cis couples' sex lives, and saying "no no no, can't mention anything to do with this couple's sex life because Claire is trans" would be a weird double standard.  (If he had depicted/described every character's genitals as a really important element of the comic, then it'd be a weird double standard to avoid alluding to Claire's, but he hasn't--he's just referred to a few of them in passing.)  Most of his comics about sex focus on feelings and relationships--for instance, the "dissertation" one was all about how Tai and Dora got past their awkwardness and had an exhaustingly wild time in the sack, without any reference to exactly what they did during that wild time--so it would be easy to write comics about Marty and Claire that follow this model.  And I'm sure they'll be adorable.

I could see Faye concluding with something along the lines of: "He's yours to look after now, Red. He's a great guy and I think you'll do the job but if you don't...? Well, then I'll come back to snap your arms and legs."

That sounds like Faye, for sure.

My guess is that he might actually be quite nice to Claire in his unique way - by treating her as a female sex object the way he does all the other ladies.

Yeah, he'll probably just want to grab her boobs.  After all, that's the part of most ladies that he usually focuses on.

[Aimless]

Dora seems to have gotten a new face

[DrBear]

Dora seems to have gotten a new face

It's her surprised happy face. Haven't seen much of it lately.

[lepetitfromage]

Ok, usually I make a habit to stay out of the WCDT but I felt compelled to throw this all out there.

Personally, I don't see why Claire's anatomy has to be up for discussion at all. Yes, the comics that were linked had anatomy mentioned but that is a handful of strips out of almost 3K. I think we'll make it through this just fine without the need to know what is happening below Claire's belt.


However (and this may have been mentioned in this thread before....forgive me for reading up to page 10 and then giving up):

Perhaps an important notion for us to gather from discussion of Claire's gender identity is that she is fucking BRAVE. Opening up to Marten about being trans not very long after they met? That's bravery if you ask me. Hell- it's not easy in the slightest to EXIST as someone who is trans in our society yet and it won't get any easier until people that don't "get it" start to either express some empathy or quit being jackasses.

Maybe Marten realizes this and she has inspired him to be brave/assertive enough to act upon his attraction to her? Maybe her quip about him working at the library forever was another little helpful mental push for him to act on taking his life where he wants it to go. Maybe the first step is realizing that he wants some (all?) of this journey to be with Claire by his side. Perhaps this is only the beginning of how the two of them will be able to learn and grow together.

[eschaton]

I agree totally, as it happens.  I just think that where trans person issues are concerned, it's damnably difficult to have those discussions in a way that doesn't offend/hurt people.  Sex may be a universal, but if you're not a trans person, you can put everything you know and understand about their lives in a gnat's navel with room for two caraway seeds and an agent's heart.  Opting on the side of least harm is a good thing, yeah?

I get what you mean, but let's step back for a minute.  Claire being trans has basically only been brought up three times in the entire comic - her coming out to Marten, her coming out to Emily, and this past week.  There have been subtle inferences elsewhere (like the dressing room scene) but if you took those comics out, no one would have guessed she was trans. 

If the comic always presents their relationship in a desexualized manner, and nothing explicit is ever said, then really what difference is there between Marten dating someone trans or cis?  Of course, in reality there would be differences (although each person is an individual) but if the reader isn't presented with them, what are they going to learn besides trans people are just like the rest of us?  When will we actually be able to be educated on what it's like to date someone who's trans?  I mean, Claire could have further monologues about her experience I suppose, but actual dynamic within a relationship should be on display - of course in a tasteful manner. 

Yeah, he'll probably just want to grab her boobs.  After all, that's the part of most ladies that he usually focuses on.

He's already spanked her butt.  Hell, Claire is the only woman who's willingly (albeit reluctantly) let Pintsize molest her. 

[Somnus Eternus]

How much do I love Tai?

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH.

[MooskiNet]

Correction: some aspects of sex are a normal topic of discussion.

Noted, and agreed to a large extent.  However, I think there has been humor value in the situations where an entity did not, for whatever reason, have those filters engaged correctly.  I also think that for reasons discussed many times, that humor would not work with Claire.

Edit: a comma

[MooskiNet]

If the comic always presents their relationship in a desexualized manner, and nothing explicit is ever said, then really what difference is there between Marten dating someone trans or cis?

That's not what's happening, though, and that's not what's verboten.  If it happens in the comic, it'll get discussed - it's speculation about it that's against the rules.  And I'm good with that.

[pwhodges]

When will we actually be able to be educated on what it's like to date someone who's trans?  I mean, Claire could have further monologues about her experience I suppose, but actual dynamic within a relationship should be on display - of course in a tasteful manner.

How that happens in the comic is up to Jeph.  If you want to know more of how that will happen, you can ask him directly (but don't expect an answer).  If you want answers to your first question, start with the threads in Discuss!, and also follow some of the links there.

[Smallest]

974?

I think thats the one in relation to the topic at hand right now.

This is the one I meant when I first mentioned Tai binding, but I couldn't find it at the time.

[cesariojpn]

He's already spanked her butt.  Hell, Claire is the only woman who's willingly (albeit reluctantly) let Pintsize molest her.

*nevermind, sometimes not quoting the entire before comment leads to wrong comments!!*

[SteveCostello]

One thing I don't seem to recall is other characters' awareness of Claire being trans. That could be an interesting, if brief, story arc. As far as I can recall, there are only five characters that know: Claire (obvs), Clinton, Mrs. A, Marten, and Emily.

Edited to add: They'd need to make sure that, of all of the characters in the QC universe, Pintsize would never find out. Because... he's an ass, and would likely be worse than ANY of the commenters in this forum on these matters!

Re-edited to add Emily.

[Fig]

One thing I don't seem to recall is other characters' awareness of Claire being trans. That could be an interesting, if brief, story arc. As far as I can recall, there are only four characters that know: Claire (obvs), Clinton, Mrs. A, and Marten.

Edited to add: They'd need to make sure that, of all of the characters in the QC universe, Pintsize would never find out. Because... he's an ass, and would likely be worse than ANY of the commenters in this forum on these matters!

Emily also knows since Claire told her.

[SteveCostello]

Emily also knows since Claire told her.

AH! Excellent memory. I'll edit my post.

[GarandMarine]

When will we actually be able to be educated on what it's like to date someone who's trans?  I mean, Claire could have further monologues about her experience I suppose, but actual dynamic within a relationship should be on display - of course in a tasteful manner.

How that happens in the comic is up to Jeph.  If you want to know more of how that will happen, you can ask him directly (but don't expect an answer).  If you want answers to your first question, start with the threads in Discuss!, and also follow some of the links there.

Having dated several trans women myself, allow me to say that dating trans women is just like dating pretty much all other women. Filled with unique challenges and adversity because they're all individuals. How it happens in comic is up to Jeph but here in meat space it's just like dating any other pretty lass you fancy.

[BenRG]

One thing I don't seem to recall is other characters' awareness of Claire being trans. That could be an interesting, if brief, story arc. As far as I can recall, there are only four characters that know: Claire (obvs), Clinton, Mrs. A, and Marten.

Edited to add: They'd need to make sure that, of all of the characters in the QC universe, Pintsize would never find out. Because... he's an ass, and would likely be worse than ANY of the commenters in this forum on these matters!

Emily also knows since Claire told her.

We know that Tai knew a trans-man who identified himself as a male (and thus she used the male pronoun just because that was who he was). So, I think that there is a measurable probability that Tai has guessed Claire's secret and has never mentioned it because (a) it has never come up and (b) it isn't any of her business who Claire does and does not tell these things.


[edit]
Edited part of the description because I didn't want the post derailed by another interminable debate on pronouns and identity.

[Netrunner]

If the comic always presents their relationship in a desexualized manner, and nothing explicit is ever said, then really what difference is there between Marten dating someone trans or cis?  Of course, in reality there would be differences (although each person is an individual) but if the reader isn't presented with them, what are they going to learn besides trans people are just like the rest of us?  When will we actually be able to be educated on what it's like to date someone who's trans?  I mean, Claire could have further monologues about her experience I suppose, but actual dynamic within a relationship should be on display - of course in a tasteful manner. 

I think this is what I want to see the most.  I want to see the relationship done in the same way as all of the others. The off-colour joking, the cuddles, the post sexy time moments. There doesn't need to be an after school lesson each time, but if done right, it could be something really special.

[AprilArcus]

Tai knew a woman who identified himself as a male (and thus she used the male pronoun just because that was who he was).

A trans man. Not a woman.

[Comic Strip Critic]

My guess about Pintsize is that he determined, via a complexity algorithm, that crude, offensive humour was the only thing that got under Marten's skin enough to drive him to exit his passive 'let someone else take the lead' comfort zone. My guess is that he might actually be quite nice to Claire in his unique way - by treating her as a female sex object the way he does all the other ladies.

That makes so much sense it's almost terrifying.

[AprilArcus]

[edit]
Edited part of the description because I didn't want the post derailed by another interminable debate on pronouns and identity.

I envy your ability to be bored by such topics, rather than existentially threatened by them.

[BenRG]

[edit]
Edited part of the description because I didn't want the post derailed by another interminable debate on pronouns and identity.

I envy your ability to be bored by such topics, rather than existentially threatened by them.

I'll be brutally obvious here: If I wanted to talk about it, I'd have gone to the appropriate forum (and, frankly, so should anyone who wants to talk about it, no matter how 'relevant' they think it is to the comic).

I appreciate that people in these situations can and do feel very sensitive to depictions and descriptions directed at them. I also appreciate that, in a written format as all these communications are, it is very difficult to differentiate between hate speech and "what the hell do I call this anyway?" That's basically why I edited the post - because I knew that tempers and passions had been running hot on the subject of words and their differing meaning to differing people; I just didn't want to restart it.

[hedgie]

[edit]
Edited part of the description because I didn't want the post derailed by another interminable debate on pronouns and identity.

I envy your ability to be bored by such topics, rather than existentially threatened by them.

These things do take time, and I'm not trying to be condescending here.  There's still a need to fight, since trans* rights and recognition are maybe where gay rights were at in the '80s (or '90s if one is being more optimistic).  It's a shitty situation, but it does seem to be getting better, not just here with Claire as a great character who I don't see as trans* unless it comes up in comic, but with the character of Sophia in "Orange Is the New Black" (blanking on the actress's name).  The more media that "normalises" (yeah, bad term, since trans* people are already normal) trans* people, and the more people in our lives that come out, the fewer problems we'll have as a society.  Without places like these fora, I'd know precisely ONE trans guy.  Here, thanks to the evolution in communications, I get to converse with many more, and more importantly, just shut up and listen to what they have to say.

I want to thank a lot of the community here to give me both the courage, and the drive to stand up to trans-phobic bollocks, and maybe impart some of what I have learnt unto others.  Even though the mods are clocking up overtime getting rid of the worst, there are still a load of people here who won't reduce someone to their gender identity.

[AprilArcus]

in a written format as all these communications are, it is very difficult to differentiate between hate speech and "what the hell do I call this anyway?"

When in doubt, it's better to ask a question than make an assumption. In a written format, you have all the time in the world to get it right.

[MonkeyBusiness]

in a written format as all these communications are, it is very difficult to differentiate between hate speech and "what the hell do I call this anyway?"

When in doubt, it's better to ask a question than make an assumption. In a written format, you have all the time in the world to get it right.

Can we...not? 

Listen, I'm just going to put this out there. I was born a woman. I present as a tomboy of a woman. I don't tell anyone that in my head, I refer to myself as male (although I've been known to slip up and use male pronouns when referring to myself in conversation in the third person) because of legit transphobia that runs throughout my family, as in if I ever admitted that I'm pretty sure I'm actually a guy things would become exceptionally dangerous.  I haven't even admitted that I'm bisexual openly except to two boyfriends (and all three of my girlfriends, because obviously I wasn't going to be able to hide that from them).  In fact, I literally just created this account because I don't want to post on my main account on the off-chance someone is going to recognize my screen name and put two and two together.

While BenRG's comment wasn't initially phrased in the most sensitive manner, the comment was edited and the admission that maybe it wasn't phrased the best was made.  BenRG is aware that it wasn't the most sensitive.  Can we not turn this into something that it isn't?  Please?

[BenRG]

@MonkeyBusiness,

Be safe.

[AprilArcus]

I'm happy BenRG made the edit, but I'm unhappy that he inserted that dismissive remark minimizing the importance of the issue, and I'm unhappy that he persisted in an argument that respectful language is unduly difficult to deploy.

I hope some day you feel free to identify however you like - tomboy, butch, male, whatever suits you. I wish you the best of luck in moving toward your comfort zone. I'm sorry transphobia has shaped your experience so greatly, and I understand why you'd hesitate to call out bad behavior in your family space -- but please don't tell me not to call out bad behavior on a public forum. This was a teachable moment and I don't regret reaching for it.

[MonkeyBusiness]

I'm happy BenRG made the edit, but I'm unhappy that he inserted that dismissive remark minimizing the importance of the issue, and I'm unhappy that he persisted in an argument that respectful language is unduly difficult to deploy.

I hope some day you feel free to identify however you like - tomboy, butch, male, whatever suits you. I wish you the best of luck in moving toward your comfort zone. I'm sorry transphobia has shaped your experience so greatly, and I understand why you'd hesitate to call out bad behavior in your family space -- but please don't tell me not to call out bad behavior on a public forum. This was a teachable moment and I don't regret reaching for it.

...This is going to be my last post on this, but there are a few things I need to address here.

As you're going on about how you made this a teachable moment, you tell me you hope I can feel free to identify however I like, and then list "tomboy, butch, male, whatever suits you" - right after I explicitly said I identify myself as male, albeit within my own head.  I didn't mention anything about calling out anyone's behavior, just that I cannot - at this time - identify myself as male openly.  So why is it okay for you, in one breath, to come down pretty hard on one person for slipping up when, in the next, you make a mistake of your own?

I'm not mad. I'm not even offended. I'm saying that intent matters, and the more "reactionary" people get to what was obviously not intended to be an attack on the trans community and was clearly a mistake, the further we push progress back.  Snide remarks are not how you teach (and I'm referring specifically to "in written format, you have all the time in the world to get it right" and "I envy your ability to be bored by such topics, rather than existentially threatened by them.").  That's how you belittle, and belittling earns little more than resistance to the point you're trying to make.

I won't respond further. 

[HES]

Re Pintsize, I suspect the most he will do is begin to say something vulgar and inappropriate before being quickly silenced by Marten/Faye in their usual fashion. That way we get the typical pintsize reaction without actually unleashing anything.

[Cyril]

Loved the shout out to the rabid fans.
And really happy that there was at least some mention made at this point. I've always felt that Marten and most of the rest of the cast, while idealized/progressive (in the sense that everything is mildly 'progressed' in the QC universe; tech, culture, &c), are fairly representative of the readership as well, who are also a pretty ideal/progressive bunch. The sheer force of curiosity and desire to discuss and s-word (speculate) confirms to me my personal reaction that if Marten didn't have an opinion it would be remarkably odd and stretch credibility. Not everything needs to happen 'on screen' but the various interactions surrounding identity and even anatomy do matter in a relationship to almost everyone... Well, I would posit that Marten literally not caring or discovering that he doesn't care would be revelatory in a pretty huge way. The handling of it here was tasteful and touching, but also a bit of a relief (although that may not be the right word) to see that his internal development is as complex and realistic as we've come to expect.

[Dalillama]

I've been reading these threads for a few weeks now, and pedantry has overcome me to the point where I had to create an account.  Please forgive me if I tread on any unwritten rules.

For those wondering, the last panel 2217 is where Tai tells Faye that she's already written slashfic of Marten with each of the interns.

So am I and I call everyone mate, as do all the people I know of all genders. My girlfriend's best friend is trans and she refers to him as her 'best mate' (said friend goes with male pronouns in fairness).

I would venture to suggest that if the individual in question is trans and goes by male pronouns, it is quite likely that he is a trans man, and thus it is not unexpected that his friends would use male-coded terms to address him.  In short, this is not actually an argument in favor of 'mate' being a non-gendered or unisex term.

It matters cause people say we can't talk about it, yet here we have examples of it being made. Ya can't put the genie back into the bottle once ya open it.....

There's a thing called context, that's very important in these types of discussions.  Specifically, there's the context in which (as has been exhaustively explained over and over in this and prior WCDT threads and in the thread specifically devoted to the discussion in question), that trans* people's bodies are considered public property, and subjected chronically to all manner of dehumanizing and excessively personal questions and discussion of same which cis people simply do not experience.  So, that is why it is, in fact, a different conversation, and the fact that other character's genitals have been discussed/mentioned is not, in fact, germane in any way.

  It's a shitty situation, but it does seem to be getting better, not just here with Claire as a great character who I don't see as trans* unless it comes up in comic, but with the character of Sophia in "Orange Is the New Black" (blanking on the actress's name).

Laverne Cox.  Who I hope to see in lots of things in future, I'm a huge fan.  She and her twin brother M. Lamar have a very interesting interview here, about identity, gender, race, and sexuality.

Listen, I'm just going to put this out there. ...

Best of wishes in your future endeavours and hopes that your situation improves.  My husband is from a similar background to yours, and his situation has, although it involved moving several hundred miles and eventually cutting off contact with his family.  So, you know, for what it's worth.  Anyway, you've all my support.

[AprilArcus]

Snide remarks are not how you teach (and I'm referring specifically to "in written format, you have all the time in the world to get it right" and "I envy your ability to be bored by such topics, rather than existentially threatened by them.").

I'd describe my remarks as "offended but dispassionate", but if snide works for you, so be it. I did my best to ignore my hurt feelings and speak for myself in a way that was forceful but not rude. I'm still glad I said something, and I reject your attempt to police my tone.

[Gnomeybum]

@AprilArcus, I appreciate and agree with a lot of what you have said during these threads and I'm not gonna weigh in on what was said between you and the other two people with whom you are currently exchanging words...

... However, what I will say is that you have spoken about teachable moments and the importance of respecting people's genders and identity. However, MonkeyBusiness just identified the fact that you misgendered him (not on purpose, I know - your intention are, I believe, clearly good) and yet in your response you didn't even acknowledge that that happened, let alone apologise. Part of teaching and sharing  these good manners and fair treatment of all genders and identities is accepting that everyone makes mistakes and, most importantly, owning up to those mistakes and apologising for them.

[St.Clair]

Welcome to the internet, where being right is (much, much, much) more important than being nice.

[AprilArcus]

As you're going on about how you made this a teachable moment, you tell me you hope I can feel free to identify however I like, and then list "tomboy, butch, male, whatever suits you" - right after I explicitly said I identify myself as male, albeit within my own head.  I didn't mention anything about calling out anyone's behavior, just that I cannot - at this time - identify myself as male openly.

I chose my words incorrectly here. In trying to acknowledge your evolving situation, I used the word "identity" where I ought to have said "presentation". I respect your firm self-identification as a man, and I am sincerely sorry that my response read as dismissive.

[BenRG]

So, anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on my suggestion that Tai may have deduced Claire's trans status by way of her previous experience of other trans persons? I, personally, think it would be in-character for Tai to have an "I know and I don't see what difference it makes" attitude but her knowledge might be revealed to Claire at some point in the near future.

[jwhouk]

I'd think it's more appropriate to think about what character X would/will think if/when they find out about Claire.

Faye: "She's WHAT?"
Dora: "Oh, dear, did I break you?"
Tai: "Yeah, whatever, I've known for a while now."
Cosette: "What's a Trans?"
Penelope: "Just like my ex-boss at the bookstore."