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Author Topic: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)  (Read 48694 times)

cesariojpn

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #250 on: 06 Dec 2014, 08:54 »

Am I missing something? Who are all these hot girls Marten can introduce Clinton to?

Faye? Yeah right! No chance
Dora/Tai - in a relationship
Hannelore - already burned that bridge
Marigold - in a relationship
Penelope - in a relationship
Emily - weirdo
Raven - no chance.

Only chance he's have full stop would be with Emily. But she might be weird, she's still not as twattish as him!

You forgot Cosette, but she's in a relationship with a cereal killer.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #251 on: 06 Dec 2014, 12:49 »

I don't see why Raven wouldn't give him a chance. As for Juicy, she is not a friend of Claire (as far as we know).

Clinton and the fairy girl would make a cute couple.

As Raven is basically the female version of Sven in romantic matters, it would be like Sven going out with Claire (except, a Claire with even fewer social graces).

Which also wouldn't work IMO.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #252 on: 06 Dec 2014, 13:20 »

Clinton looks like an asari with that hairstyle
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #253 on: 06 Dec 2014, 13:21 »

That's a mental image I probably didn't need.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #254 on: 06 Dec 2014, 14:00 »

$5 says someone's gonna post a photochop of that....
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #255 on: 06 Dec 2014, 15:05 »

Oh, people have thought of it, and will probably think of more. It just involves more delta-vee, and therefore more fuel/reaction mass, than you can realistically carry if you have to load everything up at the starting point.
It's got to be easier, once the infrastructure is in place, to decelerate to parking orbit and ride a shuttle down than it is to scream in from deep space and aim it so you don't bounce or burn.

Once you manage to insert your self in Earth orbit, the delta very difference to get out of orbit is almost trivial. Earth is screaming around the sun at over 18 miles per second. Odds are you are going to rob the moon of a little momentum in the way out. It's probably worth considering giving some back.

It's basically a transfer orbit. It seems plausible to me.

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #256 on: 06 Dec 2014, 15:06 »

I thought it was the uneven aerodynamic forces resulting from the inflation, then destruction, of the port wing (resulting from the hole in the RCC leading edge from the foam strike at launch) that destroyed Columbia.
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ReindeerFlotilla

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #257 on: 06 Dec 2014, 18:47 »

You thought correctly. The hole was caused by atmospheric compression heating, but the only reason that heating was able to make a hole was the damage from the debris strike.

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #258 on: 06 Dec 2014, 18:50 »

My point was that the atmospheric compression heating still matters even if you're using a shuttle instead of a capsule... if it didn't matter, then the hole wouldn't have been a problem.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #259 on: 06 Dec 2014, 19:14 »

Granted ... My point is that switching from a transfer orbit to a parking orbit, then transfer to a vehicle optimized for atmospheric entry and landing, has got to be a lot less stressful than screaming in direct aboard a.vehicle that's both a long hauler and the reentry vehicle. The analogy's not perfect, but think of flying into the airport, then taking a taxi to where you're actually going instead of trying to land the 767 at the hotel downtown. That's also partly what I mean by "infrastructure."
These ideas are by no means new, by the way. They were best expressed visually, perhaps, in 2001 (the movie) but that was based on ideas kicked around by von Braun et al.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #260 on: 06 Dec 2014, 19:26 »

I thought it was the uneven aerodynamic forces resulting from the inflation, then destruction, of the port wing (resulting from the hole in the RCC leading edge from the foam strike at launch) that destroyed Columbia.
I wonder if NASA had watched Bebop, that disaster could have been averted.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #261 on: 06 Dec 2014, 20:19 »

Yes, Cowboy Bebop at his computer could have figured it out.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #262 on: 06 Dec 2014, 20:23 »

I was just thinking that the Columbia was in one episode, and nearly burnt up because of a damaged heat tile when rescuing Spike.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #263 on: 06 Dec 2014, 20:29 »

Granted ... My point is that switching from a transfer orbit to a parking orbit, then transfer to a vehicle optimized for atmospheric entry and landing, has got to be a lot less stressful than screaming in direct aboard a.vehicle that's both a long hauler and the reentry vehicle. The analogy's not perfect, but think of flying into the airport, then taking a taxi to where you're actually going instead of trying to land the 767 at the hotel downtown. That's also partly what I mean by "infrastructure."
Okay, I think I had misunderstood what you were saying earlier. That's a similar strategy to the one that was used in the Apollo landings, though not exactly the same because the moon doesn't have an atmosphere, where the command module stayed in space and only the landing module went to the surface.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #264 on: 06 Dec 2014, 21:12 »

I wonder if NASA has kicked around the idea of a small re-entry-only vehicle, one that can be easily assembled in space that's basically a glider. Instead of coming in like a freaking meteorite (or a flying brick), it just skims the upper atmosphere, using some friction to slow down, but not enough to need Shuttle type heat tiles, and it just orbits the planet a few times untill it loses enough speed to begin its descent and land.


It's probably a dumb idea since I got it after watching a rerun of the BBC TopGear "Scooterman" episode at 4 am today.
« Last Edit: 06 Dec 2014, 21:22 by SubaruStephen »
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #265 on: 06 Dec 2014, 22:09 »

They had something like that planned as an escape vehicle from the ISS at one stage I think, but budget cuts killed it and they went with a Soyuz Escape Craft that's docked to the station.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #266 on: 06 Dec 2014, 22:10 »

Also, that method of reentry (skimming the atmosphere) is called aerobreaking and has been used when sending landers to Mars.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #267 on: 06 Dec 2014, 22:53 »

Delta v.

Friction doesn't really work at 5 miles per second. At near terminal velocity (which is comparatively slow) hitting water can be no less dangerous than hitting concrete. The water can't get out of the way fast enough. The effect is similar with air, at high speeds. That's why meteors explode. The stress of slamming into the atmosphere. This is why the eat of reentry is compressive, not friction. Compression makes things hot. Compression while moving at 5 miles per second turns air into plasma.

If you try a shallow decent into the atmosphere, odds are you'll bounce off. Catastrophically. Assuming you survive your close encounter with the atmosphere, you'll be on parabolic trajectory, going back into space, until you run out of energy and start falling again. Speeding up. You'll be going slower, but not that much slower.

Rinse and repeat a couple of dozen times and try to do the math that will tell you what part of the planet you'll be over when you finally come in slowly enough not to bounce.

The combined stress on the space craft may exceed the stresses of an simple direct entry. The pucker factor has to.

Any plan that avoids this is going to need reaction mass. If you had a thruster that could slow you down enough to glide in, you might as well slow all the way down and come in at nice few hundred miles an hour. Sure, the trip down would be longer, but no compression to worry about.

That leaves the question of where you're going to get the reaction mass to pull this stunt off.

Say you leave Earth for Mars. What you do is rob the Earth-Moon system of a bit of momentum--we're going 1112 mile per minute. we can spare it. You give a little of that momentum to Mars. Then you take it back to make the trip home. when you get back, you give some of that Momentum to Earth, slowing down again.

The process of getting to orbit is much the same. The problem is, you can't effectivelly Rob Earth to give you a boost. You do steal some momentum, but you work really hard to do it.

Getting to space isn't really that hard. SpaceShip One/Two does it without going much faster than sound. To quote Randall:
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The reason it's hard to get to orbit isn't that space is high up.

It's hard to get to orbit because you have to go so fast.


The Rutan craft basically pull the same stunt the X-15 did. The fancy feathering maneuver at the end allows them to bleed more speed with less "OH BEARD PLEASE HELP US WE'RE GOING TO DIE." That said, they aren't going fast enough to stay in space. Feathering or not, the SpaceShip series is coming back down, and it'll do it shortly after it gets up there.

Rockets use insane amounts of fuel to go insanely fast just to get to LEO. 18,000 miles per hour.

In order to descend like a glider, you first have to slow down from 18000 to a more sedate 300 or so.

And that's what the space shuttle was designed to do. the most efficient way to bleed of that speed was and compressive heat.

The next option was fuel, but that runs into the tyranny of the rocket equation. The fule needed to lift the Shuttle and hurl it at 18000 miles per hour, so that it achieves Arthur Dent's most astounding trick (falling to Earth and missing), isn't really that much. just a fraction of the fuel used. The vast majority of the fule is devoted to lifting the fuel. Lifting enough fuel to slow back down means another, equal, vast majority dedicated to lifting that fuel. (The rocket equation. an easy way to figure out how much fuel you need to lift the fuel you need, to lift the fuel you need, to lift the fuel you need to lift the fuel you need... Er. put it this way. Say you need 1 unit of fuel mass to lift one unit of payload mass.The problem is, the mass of your fully fueled miss is now two units. Which means you need 2 more units of fuel. But then your mass is 4 units. so you need 4 more... You're saved by the fact that your fuel is a propellant. You get lift by throwing it the other way, really hard. So seconds after you fire the engines, you've thrown away a lot of mass. You get less massive as you go up.)

Returning to our 1 unit for 1 unit, assuming an exhaust velocity of six kilometers per second, you need almost 6 units of fuel to lift your payload and fuel to lift that payload. If you add enough fuel to slow back down, your fuel cost jumps to +11 units. Your vehicle mass just doubled. That's off the cuff, but considering the cost to orbit, doubling the payload you're putting up there, doubles your expenditure. Space is expensive.

DSL

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #268 on: 07 Dec 2014, 03:21 »

Sure is. We're talking about two sides of the bootstrap situation, though. You the initial side, where the human space program is now and we have to pack.everything we need at the beginning, and I'm thinking ahead to that place I hope we get, when there's enough of a.support infrastructure in place, in orbit or even at destination, that future flights will be able to lean on it and not have to carry everything. It'll.tale a.long time to get to that point but once it's reached, the growth will (be able to be) exponential.
Meanwhile, I'm kicking myself for.not paying more attention to the Dawn mission to Vesta and, soon enough, Ceres. And Pluto Express not long after that.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #269 on: 07 Dec 2014, 03:43 »

I'm not sure it will take a long time.

See: Elon Musk.

If anyone had ever told me the answer to the reusable space craft proble was to bring the lower stage down for a controlled  vertical landing, I'd have called them nuts.

Space X roasts yer nuts.

Orion is 8 years from demonstration and proofing flights. Dragon is delivering cargo, and Falcon Heavy is planned to demo next year. Musk started rolling at the same time Constellation did. They are on track to meet the Constellation schedule, while Orion is 7 years behind.

I'm sure there's a physical answer to the deorbit problem. But finding that answer in NASA, getting it funded, and built... That's impossible.

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #270 on: 07 Dec 2014, 04:40 »

Didn't SpaceX's last test shot blow up?
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #271 on: 07 Dec 2014, 05:42 »

Didn't SpaceX's last test shot blow up?
That was a commercial launch and it was destroyed by the range safety officer because a midair explosion is better than it landing on something then exploding.

(I would make such a terrible RSO; the temptation of a big red button marked "blow it up" would be just too great ;) )
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #272 on: 07 Dec 2014, 06:07 »

I'm sure there's a physical answer to the deorbit problem. But finding that answer in NASA, getting it funded, and built... That's impossible.

Damn unlikely, that's for sure. NASA's going to think, then overthink, and the only way it'll move beyond that is to "freeze the design," which is a slightly less unpleasant way of saying,  "OK, let' stick with something 10 years behind the times just so we can get some damn thing built and maybe even flown."

What i like about the private designers and builders is, when you look at them in the aggregate, you get a sense of what aeronautics was like in the 1920s and the 1950s, full of people saying, "OK, let's try this." Lots of things that didn't quite work out -- and a glorious few that did.

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #273 on: 07 Dec 2014, 06:40 »

Sure is. We're talking about two sides of the bootstrap situation, though. You the initial side, where the human space program is now and we have to pack.everything we need at the beginning, and I'm thinking ahead to that place I hope we get, when there's enough of a.support infrastructure in place, in orbit or even at destination, that future flights will be able to lean on it and not have to carry everything. It'll.tale a.long time to get to that point but once it's reached, the growth will (be able to be) exponential.
Meanwhile, I'm kicking myself for.not paying more attention to the Dawn mission to Vesta and, soon enough, Ceres. And Pluto Express not long after that.

It is some years ago that I read a proposal for a return trip to Mars. First you send a chemical factory that will produce oxygen for the stay and fuel for the return trip. Raw materials come from the Martian atmosphere. Only when the factory reports full tanks, you send the astronauts.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #274 on: 07 Dec 2014, 06:52 »

That was Robert Zubrin, a former NASA engineer. Supposedly NASA adopted a modified version of his plan in the Constellation program, but that part has been cancelled.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #275 on: 07 Dec 2014, 09:17 »

Didn't SpaceX's last test shot blow up?

Stuff occasionally breaks. However, this was after several nominal test flights by the same vehicle. Yes, you read that right, a rocket, identical to a model intended to fly into space, flew several times up and down with precision landing.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #276 on: 07 Dec 2014, 12:15 »

One wonders if China's entry into the space business is not providing the spur that the competition against the old Soviet Union did during the early days of the Space Race.

ESA has been silent for quite a while, I wonder what they're up to - or have they given up and thrown in their lot with the NASA?  I hope not.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #277 on: 07 Dec 2014, 12:55 »

One wonders if China's entry into the space business is not providing the spur that the competition against the old Soviet Union did during the early days of the Space Race.

Only in a very unusual way. The way the Chinese are offering cheap space launch has spurred a rush to lower prices. SpaceX, who have always been looking to do cheap launch, are way ahead. However, I'm sure that other companies will try to reduce their costs too. Only Lockheed and Boeing, guaranteed USAF launch cash via their ULA joint venture, are unlikely to follow suit.

ESA has been silent for quite a while, I wonder what they're up to - or have they given up and thrown in their lot with the NASA?  I hope not.

ESA have made some bad decisions, specifically in throwing in their lot with the Russians for a medium-lift LV in the form of Soyuz. They are also hobbled by the continual turf war between Germany and France over who will supply the parts for the next-generation Ariane-6 launcher. I won't expect too much from them at this stage.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #278 on: 07 Dec 2014, 16:05 »

The ESA are cosntantly hamstrung by themselves and their very nature unfortunately. Their problems are many but essentially boil down to:

A. They're a European institution... and yet not part of the EU - meaning countries like Swtizerland etc. can get involved, but that also means there is less money available, and when it is invested Germany (who are normally the largest investor) and France (who own the main launch centre and so have a big say) can never agree on anything.
B. They have a notoriously bad track record when it comes to following through with ideas (there's a space centre in Belgium where schoolkids go, kind of like a European space camp, and amongst myriad other cancelled programmes, they actually have a big static model of the planned reusable ESA space plane that was built as a prototype shell before the programme was canned)
C. Germany and France can never, ever agree on anything. ANY. THING.
D. Contracts are split along investment lines - i.e. Germany puts in the most money, Germany builds everything. This bothers a lot of the countries involved who get very little economic kickback from their investments. 'cough' France 'cough' United Kingdom 'cough'
E. Germany and France can never, ever agree on anything. ANY. THING.

Mind you, the ESA has done some amazing stuff. The next generation of Global Positioning systems will all be based on ESA satellites (Galileo), there's ESA money going into the British engineered and built Skylon spaceplane which could very realistically be the near future of orbital flight/transport, and, oh, that little thing called Rosetta and tiny washing-machine sized lander called Philae that landed on a god-damn comet only a couple of weeks ago.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #279 on: 07 Dec 2014, 18:50 »

Each time I read Friday's comic, what Clinton says in the 2nd panel make me more and more angry.

There is being protective, and then there is being a controlling douche.  :x
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #280 on: 07 Dec 2014, 19:37 »

 I'm sure he'll top it tonight.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #281 on: 07 Dec 2014, 21:56 »

$5 says someone's gonna post a photochop of that....

Hold up, lemme see if it popped up on 4chan......
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #282 on: 07 Dec 2014, 23:10 »

There is a saying: "If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room."

I am most certainly in the right room. Tungsten rods, orbital re-entry... my head hurts.  :-D
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #283 on: 08 Dec 2014, 18:17 »

All right, who dropped tungsten rod on tragic_pizza? That was just rude.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #284 on: 08 Dec 2014, 18:33 »

There is a saying: "If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room."

I am most certainly in the right room. Tungsten rods, orbital re-entry... my head hurts.  :-D
I'm always in the right room, then.

Even if I actually am in the wrong room.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #285 on: 09 Dec 2014, 14:48 »

I always heard it thus (maybe it's a corollary): If you think you're the smartest person in the room, you'd better be the only person in the room.
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celticgeek

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #286 on: 09 Dec 2014, 14:52 »

My joke:  Sometimes I need to speak with the most intelligent, wisest person around, and since that's me, I usually wind up talking to myself.
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SubaruStephen

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #287 on: 09 Dec 2014, 18:50 »

I always heard it thus (maybe it's a corollary): If you think you're the smartest person in the room, you'd better be the only person in the room.

I always heard it as "dumbest "....
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #288 on: 09 Dec 2014, 22:11 »



December 14, 2002.

The video shows booster separation of the Japanese H2A2 F4 at 12:15:40, the Japanese ADEOS-2 at 12:16:20, the Australian FedSat at 12:16:40, the Japanese MicroLabSat at 12:17:00 and WEOS at 12:17:20.

I was the head of the spaceflight computer team on FedSat.

While it's really photogenic, FedSat was not supposed to be launched with a slow tumble like that - it made acquiring contact from the ground a non-trivial task as antennae are directional. But we got it sorted out and stabilised after two very nailbiting days.

The Japanese had some bad luck with their 3700kg greyhound-bus-sized ADEOS-II. The Solar Panel failed from unknown causes within a few months, and they lost all telemetry.
« Last Edit: 09 Dec 2014, 22:18 by ZoeB »
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ZoeB

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #289 on: 09 Dec 2014, 22:17 »

There's no such thing as a free launch - but we got one anyway from the National Space Development Agency of Japan (NASDA).

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Half Empty Coffee Cup

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #290 on: 10 Dec 2014, 02:54 »

If there isn't a dedicated aerospace thread somewhere on this site, there needs to be. The past page and a half has been excellent.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #291 on: 10 Dec 2014, 06:04 »

I always heard it thus (maybe it's a corollary): If you think you're the smartest person in the room, you'd better be the only person in the room.

I always heard it as "dumbest "....

If you're the only person in the room then you're both anyway.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #292 on: 11 Dec 2014, 01:47 »

If there isn't a dedicated aerospace thread somewhere on this site, there needs to be. The past page and a half has been excellent.
Seconded.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #293 on: 11 Dec 2014, 02:01 »

If there isn't a dedicated aerospace thread somewhere on this site, there needs to be. The past page and a half has been excellent.

Seconded.

Being a aerospace fanboy, I agree. However, where to put it? ENJOY, CHATTER or DISCUSS?
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #294 on: 11 Dec 2014, 04:15 »

ENJOY is for consumption of media, and DISCUSS is where the more charged or more private issues (requires membership to view) are discussed.

If it's fair game to be discussed in this thread, then it's fair game for CHATTER, which makes CHATTER the right place.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #295 on: 11 Dec 2014, 04:28 »

Unrelated to aerospace but:

Anyone want to see a Charles Stross' The Laundry series crossover with QC? Unlikelier things have happened.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #296 on: 11 Dec 2014, 04:54 »

Not really, but I'd like to see more Walkyverse crossovers. Loved seeing Amber complain about her coffee at CoD!
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #297 on: 11 Dec 2014, 09:21 »

When did that happen? I don't remember...
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #298 on: 11 Dec 2014, 12:48 »

I think Lubricus is referring to this. I never noticed it was supposed to be Amber before. I had always interpreted her as just a random CoD customer.
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Re: WCDT December 1-5, 2014 (2845-2849)
« Reply #299 on: 11 Dec 2014, 22:33 »

Cesium is right - the same scene can be seen in Shortpacked! from Amber's perspective. I can't be bothered to link it right now.
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