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Author Topic: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)  (Read 499879 times)

JoeCovenant

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3750 on: 15 Aug 2017, 04:53 »


Jebus H Christos!

Talk about splitting your fan base down the middle.
(Nice to see our very own BenRG in the same kinda comment thread as I was posting.)

I honestly don't know why I read the comments page. If there is an extreme to be had, it seems to be LEAPED upon by the vocal majority, and any other dissenting voice hauled over the coals. (People already being called "That guy" for daring to say "Umm... hang on...")

So... here's my rant, cos I feel this is a far safer place to make it.


JOE IS NOT A FECKING RAPIST!!!

He's not an ENABLER. He's not an APOLOGIST. He's not a "Toxic Male" (I bloody hate that ridiculous phrase).
He's an immature, basically lonely guy, looking for solace in meaningless sexual encounters, with girls/women who are perfectly happy to indulge IN those sexual encounters.
He's an eighteen year old *bloke*, who hasn't yet passed beyond the maturity stage of 'rating girls out of ten' to the nth degree, and being especially silly to put that online.

He's also a comic character whose sole purpose is to be the BUTT OF JOKES AGAINST HIM!

But no... let's post essays as to why and how and what this comic character does, is offensive/dangerous/insensitive/your-favourite-trigger-here.
Let's describe his childish and frankly laughable webpage as a "Rapists playground" and "Information for abusers."

I mean, Glob knows, some (A LOT) of people on that page have had a HARD TIME in life, and I sympathise and empathise with them for that, but... man...
There's just 'a point' where you have to step back and say, "Maybe it's just ME putting all of these connotations onto comic characters? Maybe I'm feeding my own problems and looking for justification among the safety of the groupthink which has formed?  Maybe this comic is... just... a bit of fun, which deals with relationships in a comedic fashion-which means using certain tropes and magnifications of actual human traits for comedic effect and... just maybe... it's not real that important in the real world..."

... y'know?


(there, i said it)
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3751 on: 15 Aug 2017, 06:29 »

Joe is emotionally immature and trying hard not to grow out of that. Unfortunately for him he's being forced to recognize that his actions do indeed matter and have real consequence. Both to himself and to others. I'm sure he figured that giving out donuts and giving an insincere 'sorry' to every woman on his list would have gotten him off the hook, but he's realizing it doesn't. Like Walky, he wants to be an adult for the good stuff (sex, mostly) but still be a kid when it comes to not having responsibility, not having to worry about anyone but himself and just being forgiven when he screws up. Also like Walky he's finding the adult world doesn't work like that and is getting squeezed out of that realm of privilege whether he likes it or not.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3752 on: 15 Aug 2017, 08:18 »

The point that those people are trying to make is that, even if Joe isn't a rapist, he's immersed in a culture of toxic masculinity (which is a particular sub-type of masculinity), that very much tries to trivialize rape.

He's part of the culture that attacks rape victims for "ruining their rapist's life", because it wasn't really rape, because she didn't say no (because she was so drunk that she couldn't say no). He's part of the culture that trivializes women, reducing their role to sex objects, and declaring them worthless if they're not having sex with people like him (this especially includes Joyce - see his rating her "zero minus" - even if he doesn't actually think she's worthless).

The people who are calling him out for being on the same path as Ryan and who are calling him out for being immersed in the culture of toxic masculinity aren't saying that he's a toxic male, they're pointing out that he's also a victim of toxic masculinity... but that he has a lot of victims as a result. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as Ryan, but it is still a thing. And, they're even pointing out that he could grow out of this. In the mean time, though, he's still a threat to women on campus.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3753 on: 15 Aug 2017, 08:58 »

I'll add to bhtooefr's post that Joe doesn't have to consciously believe or say some of the things said for those toxic aspects to be an understandable interpretation of Joe's character. The stuff Joe does say and do is enough to further perpetuate a harmful environment. It's at least more than able to be criticised because it reflects a lot of real world attitudes that plenty of people have encountered. Especially early Joe being as overt to say having sex with a virgin is "breaking them in" and he could "upgrade" them by doing so. Joe is an entertaining fictional character and I can see sometimes that he has a good heart, but if I knew someone like him in real life (and I have) then I would not want to be around them.


Plus let's not trivialise triggers. Let's not push the idea that people who've gone through traumas are looking for reasons to be upset and rant. This "bit of fun" comic deals with heavy topics like abuse, suicide and sexual assault. An attempted rape was the first big story event. It makes sense that people talk about those topics a lot in relation to the comic and their own experience.

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3754 on: 15 Aug 2017, 09:24 »

The point that those people are trying to make is that, even if Joe isn't a rapist, he's immersed in a culture of toxic masculinity (which is a particular sub-type of masculinity), that very much tries to trivialize rape.

He's part of the culture that attacks rape victims for "ruining their rapist's life", because it wasn't really rape, because she didn't say no (because she was so drunk that she couldn't say no). He's part of the culture that trivializes women, reducing their role to sex objects, and declaring them worthless if they're not having sex with people like him (this especially includes Joyce - see his rating her "zero minus" - even if he doesn't actually think she's worthless).

The people who are calling him out for being on the same path as Ryan and who are calling him out for being immersed in the culture of toxic masculinity aren't saying that he's a toxic male, they're pointing out that he's also a victim of toxic masculinity... but that he has a lot of victims as a result. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as Ryan, but it is still a thing. And, they're even pointing out that he could grow out of this. In the mean time, though, he's still a threat to women on campus.

And clearly I disagree with that.

Exactly where have we seen him "immersed in rape culture"?
I have never seen him remotely 'blame victims for being raped'.
Neither have I seen him attempt to (for want of a better word) 'seduce' anyone under the influence of drink or drugs.

And the last point is the one that really gets me, and that people are refusing to take into account...
Maybe the women who slept with him did actually want him to!
Maybe, just maybe, "casual sex" is actually a thing!
(No, surely not!)

He has NEVER classed any woman as "worthless" if they will not sleep with him.
As you say above, he certainly doesn't view Joyce as worthless, so that point is moot.
And if he did view woman as worthless, then why would he even consider his actions and (impotently-ironically) look to in some way 'make up' for his childish list? (A list, which it must be acknowledged, HE did not make public.)

He has, in fact, made no attempt to hide his availability for women to have sex with him.

Now... you may believe his list is part of this so called "Rape-Culture".
If you do, then there's little else can be said, as IMO, a fantasy "marks-out-of-ten, to-do" PRIVATE list, made by an immature, sexually maturing, young man boy, is so far removed from rape as to be laughable to attempt to link them.

And, Joe has victims?
I think that' straining the English language a little too far...
As is the whole viewpoint hat Joe is in some way dangerous and "toxic" and even (lord help us) a THREAT.
And calling him one, and claiming he has *victims* actively belittles the plight and trauma of women who have been sexually assaulted.

TL/DR: Pick your battles.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3755 on: 15 Aug 2017, 09:26 »

It makes sense that people talk about those topics a lot in relation to the comic and their own experience.

Does it make sense for them to attempt to belittle people who disagree with them?

All I see (when it comes to this particular subject) is people looking to force the issue where the issue does not exist.
We've seen it above.
Joe is "toxic" and "dangerous" and "A threat" and has "victims"...? really?
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3756 on: 15 Aug 2017, 09:38 »


In other news...

Just revisited the comments page and discovered (much to my amazement and some relief) that a great deal of people are indeed now calling out the more rabid "RAPIST" shouters... and even the suggest-ers.

Who'da thunk it!?
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Welu

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3757 on: 15 Aug 2017, 09:54 »

Moderator Comment Keep discussion to the comic and its characters, not about the commenters. There's a Rape Culture thread in Discuss where that topic can be continued or to do some reading on what has been said before.

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3758 on: 16 Aug 2017, 02:56 »

Keep discussion to the comic and its characters, not about the commenters. There's a Rape Culture thread in Discuss where that topic can be continued or to do some reading on what has been said before.

Mea maxima culpa.

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3759 on: 16 Aug 2017, 11:12 »

Global Moderator Comment I just had to delete a post altogether here. Everyone please bring your best selves to the discussion.
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3760 on: 16 Aug 2017, 16:02 »

And that Joyce, is better than a slap in the face to Joe.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3761 on: 17 Aug 2017, 15:31 »

Class dismissed

Let's hope Joe does learn from this
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3762 on: 18 Aug 2017, 08:39 »


Ooo!!! Shrodinger's Door!  8-)
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3763 on: 18 Aug 2017, 15:43 »

More like Dinas Ninja abilities
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3764 on: 18 Aug 2017, 21:07 »

Come on, Jeeves, don't be a snitch.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3765 on: 19 Aug 2017, 17:14 »

Walky, Master of Disguise
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3766 on: 20 Aug 2017, 15:40 »

SQUIRREL!!
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3767 on: 21 Aug 2017, 17:10 »

The awkward opening moments
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3768 on: 21 Aug 2017, 21:23 »

Oof . Today's strip hit me in the heart. Poor Mindy.
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3769 on: 22 Aug 2017, 15:43 »

Oh dear

Guilt Attack in 3 ..... 2 ..... 1
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James The Kugai 

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JoeCovenant

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3770 on: 23 Aug 2017, 06:14 »


Did anyone else notice that Stacy is sitting right beside her in the bar...?
Check that little quiff of hair off right panel...

(And then check the tags!)  :)
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3771 on: 23 Aug 2017, 06:49 »

I suspect that Leslie and Stacy are going to get into a drunken mutual commiseration about how their romantic taste sucks (abusive and sometimes even monsters). A drunken one-night stand might then happen but I hope not as it's something neither of them want or need.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3772 on: 23 Aug 2017, 12:44 »

I'm a little worried Becky is going to see some parallels between the Joyce-Becky/ Leslie-Mindy rejections and be bitter towards Leslie. Hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3773 on: 23 Aug 2017, 15:20 »

Well, THAT went well 
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3774 on: 24 Aug 2017, 07:23 »

Prediction
Spoilered as it is inspired by recent preview/character art reveals on Willis's Tumblr.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: 24 Aug 2017, 15:12 by BenRG »
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3775 on: 24 Aug 2017, 12:33 »

BTW, you got the Tumblr link wrong: https://dumbingofage.tumblr.com/
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3776 on: 24 Aug 2017, 15:10 »

I need a shower

I think Joe and Rachel probably feel the same way
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3777 on: 25 Aug 2017, 16:26 »

Well, at least Amber tried
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3778 on: 26 Aug 2017, 15:04 »

Cliff Notes exposition and an interesting conversation ahead
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3779 on: 26 Aug 2017, 21:27 »

So Amber is finally going to fully open up to someone. This could get interesting.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3780 on: 27 Aug 2017, 06:30 »

So Amber is finally going to fully open up to someone. This could get interesting.

Actually, I think that Amber is going to spend the next few strips ranting about what a broken monster she is and then get very surprised by Dorothy telling her that she's talking bullshit.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3781 on: 27 Aug 2017, 15:30 »

"You want answers??"
"I want the truth!!!'
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!"
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3782 on: 27 Aug 2017, 16:16 »

Actually, I think that Amber is going to spend the next few strips ranting about what a broken monster she is and then get very surprised by Dorothy telling her that she's talking bullshit.

Crap, you have a point.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3783 on: 28 Aug 2017, 13:48 »

Well .......


Ummmm ..........


Yeah


Wow
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James The Kugai 

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3784 on: 29 Aug 2017, 16:29 »

Dang
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3785 on: 29 Aug 2017, 23:27 »

Today's strip has me with this funny mental image of Ruth sitting down with Chloe (the Residence Manager) and asking her how to persuade someone to do what she wants without threatening to tear out their long bones.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3786 on: 30 Aug 2017, 18:08 »

GO FORTH AND PARTY!!
« Last Edit: 31 Aug 2017, 15:43 by Kugai »
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3787 on: 30 Aug 2017, 23:29 »

What do various characters do this Saturday night? Well the 8/31 strip tells us! I particularly like the bunk party that Joyce, Dorothy and Walky are holding and Sarah's reaction to it. She loves those kids, really and it does her heart good to be around their happiness.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3788 on: 31 Aug 2017, 06:39 »

Why is Becky so unsatisfied?
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3789 on: 31 Aug 2017, 07:20 »

Becky is good at putting on a cheerful face but she's still an effective exiled orphan who has far too many problems awaiting her in life and far too many uncertainties. She'd be less than human if she didn't have sad or reflective moments on occasion.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3790 on: 31 Aug 2017, 10:18 »

She's woefully unprepared for life on her own, yet she was forced into that situation when her school outed her and her father tried to force her into conversion therapy at gunpoint. She is fortunate that she's got people who are able to put her up, give her a place to stay and food to eat while she tries to assemble a new future out of her shattered life. And she's said before that she's afraid to show anything other than her happy side to anyone for fear they'll reject her and not want her around. The happy Becky is a mask hiding deep insecurities and fears that alone Becky can show.
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3791 on: 31 Aug 2017, 15:44 »

Silence speaks volumes
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3792 on: 01 Sep 2017, 16:06 »

Only on rare occasions Joyce
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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3793 on: 01 Sep 2017, 23:40 »

So, the 9/2 strip is up and...

Dotty-Joyce-Walky Threesome?!?

Nah, not really but that's how poor Joyce is going to interpret it for a whlie. The freak-out will probably be both painful and funny to watch. This is a pity because, in a way, it's such a heart-warming moment, a reminder that Joyce has such an open heart that she has no problem being in these innocently intimate settings with her friends because she trusts them so much!
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3794 on: 02 Sep 2017, 16:59 »

Surprise, surprise!
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James The Kugai 

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Neko_Ali

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3795 on: 03 Sep 2017, 08:10 »

Alert! Alert! Full stop! The tracks are out ahead! This is going to be a huge train wreck!
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3796 on: 03 Sep 2017, 14:01 »

Black Slacks

Black goes with everything
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James The Kugai 

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JoeCovenant

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3797 on: 04 Sep 2017, 04:23 »


Predictions (for which I am WELL KNOWN).... (for not being close!)

1) Sarah tries to get Joyce to impress Jacob (because she just wants to split he and Raihaiahai up) but says it's so SHE can get him.
2) Joyce impresses Jacob so much that (surprise) he falls for HER!
3) Sarah's task is complete.
4) Joyce meanwhile is a WRECK because Jacob wasn't SUPPOSED to fall for her, he was supposed to like Sarah!
5) And Joyce may start feeling things for Jacob... "Which makes me a TERRIBLE FRIEND! -" (In her eyes) "-because I was doing this for Sarah!"
6) DRAMA
7)...
8 ) PROFIT!
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Covenant
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BenRG

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3798 on: 04 Sep 2017, 04:43 »

I've got a feeling that it's never going to get as far as what will happen between Jacob and Joyce. I have a nasty suspicion that things are going to get into a mess at the Church when someone *coughMaryandPetercough* objects to Joyce being there with an AA man for reasons that should head back to the 1930s when they still were considered vaguely scientific. It downgrades to 'ugly confrontation' when the pastor starts temporising and avoiding telling Mary and Peter that their views are not welcome in the congregation.

There follows something of a crisis of faith and the following (warning, spoiler) new aesthetic for Joyce:

https://dumbingofage.tumblr.com/image/164566132332

FWIW, I think that Jacob will always see Joyce as a cute and dippy younger sister, although he respects her faith.
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Kugai

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Re: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
« Reply #3799 on: 04 Sep 2017, 16:01 »

Careful  Sarah, people will start thinking you like them
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James The Kugai 

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