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Faypocalypse Sven

9 (6.9%)

Claireten Snuggles

12 (9.2%)

Clintonhand Naughtyness

3 (2.3%)

Dora fires Faye - Drama and drunkenness ensues

50 (38.2%)

Clairemom and Martenmom accidentally meet

4 (3.1%)

Emily gets weirder (is that even possible?)

4 (3.1%)

Sven rescues Faye - Dora gets wrong end of stick

12 (9.2%)

The surprise return on Angus - Blood and mayhem ensue

5 (3.8%)

Purple Monkey Dishwasher

7 (5.3%)

Whatever it is, it'll be completely unexpected

22 (16.8%)

ALIENS!

3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[Gladstone]

Oh, I'm not complaining or anything.  I have nothing against it happening.  I'm just trying to grasp the enormity of the situation.   

[MrNumbers]

One of the wiser things I've ever heard about dealing with addicts is "Don't jump in and try to save an anchor from drowning".

Proportionate measures are for normal healthy people screwing up. The Pugnacious Peach is looking less and less like such a person.

Repeat offense? Termination. Reasonable.

Ultimatum: Come back clean in two weeks or don't come back at all. Reasonable.

When a person does it twice, that's when it starts being more prudent to just straight out fire someone. Right now? Not the case.

If I was working as a producer and I caught someone drinking on set, I'd fire them immediately. Around that much equipment, it's possible to get someone killed. In that situation, the possible liability of their actions exceeds the cost of replacement. If it was, however, a co-producer I'd worked with for years, behind the scenes, who showed up drunk once because his dog just got hit by a car...

I'd pick up their slack, ax them from that project and wipe them from the budget. But I'd work with them again. I wouldn't blacklist them, certainly. I wouldn't have been working with them for years if they weren't otherwise competent, and that's excruciatingly difficult to find.

But then again, a film set is nothing like a coffee shop.

Warning - while you were typing 2 new shady-lookin' cowpokes mozied on into the saloon. They better be quick on the draw to interrupt whiskey hour.

[Is it cold in here?]

Faye has acknowledged a problem before.

She felt like her life was falling apart uncontrollably.

That arc was quite a while ago and even back then Dora saw that The Pugnacious Peach had a drinking problem.

[xaszatm]

Immediately firing her would've been her firing her yesterday.

Firing her the next day when she's still drunk if not worse because she's now bringing booze into the work place, lying to her face about it, , after she gave her a promotion and everything which is now putting her business at stake? That is not without question

First: This is still the same day, in-strip time. It's later on in that same day. That's important.

Second: Yes. Absolutely. She made a poor decision to lie to her boss, whilst drunk, and then continued to drink. That's a horrible, terrible thing to do.

But a bigger hit to Dora's business is losing an otherwise good manager (one who has a loyal customer base and manages to keep the other employees well in check) in the heat of the moment. Her decision to punish Faye? Justified. Being sick of Faye's shit? Justified.

But the loss of a valued employee, and a manager at that, is now made up for in the overtime she needs to pay other people to make up for Faye's shifts, time investment in hiring a new employee, and time Dora herself has to spend since she was the only other manager. If Faye's actions haven't caused more damage, or will cause more damage, than her termination will, then the termination is a poor decision. Especially since it's not a repeat offense, it's a first-time incident of this type of behaviour.

So it's a bad business decision as well as a bad friend decision.

Warning - while you were typing 3 new bottles of bourbon appeared on the wall. Note them down, pass them around.

This is it. This is the comment that gets me to join.

I'll fight you all!

You are confusing business with friendship.

I just covered that now. Let's move on.

So, why not just give her a few days off? Well, first off, that encourages Faye. [...]

Ahh... No? No it doesn't. If his is her only source of income, giving her a week or two without shifts is a serious financial burden. Huge. Give Faye a taste of what termination would be like if she didn't get her shit together and know that Dora means business. It's not like a school suspension, especially since Faye is paid by the hour and not a set wage.

She should absolutely be punished severely. A permanent termination is a step too far.

Secondly more deserving of disciplinary action?. I'm sorry, what?!? Something that could have serious economic consequences for her store is only deserving of disciplinary action?

Again, covered above. The severity of her punishment should scale with the permanency of her incompetence. It's the difference between rehabilitation and retribution. Retribution may feel more righteous, but guess which one ends up more effective long-term?

Alright, who else needs verbal fisticuffs? I'll take you all on, Hemmingway style.

1. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2866 is Faye trying to get permission to drink
2. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2867 is Dora telling her not to drink at work
3. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2875 is Faye the next morning deciding to continue to drink

It's the next day. She went home from work, got wasted, woke up, and decided to make the worst mistake of her life. It's not the same day is Dora's telling her not to drink.

Also, it does not matter if she was a good manager before, it matters what she is doing right now. I can't exactly use the excuse that I was the top of the employee chart in order to not get fired for injuring someone at work, can I? Dora cannot use Faye's good employee record in court if Faye's drunkenness causes serious injury to a patron, can she? The past doesn't matter, the present does. If someone refuses to show even the slightest respect for their boss, then the boss has every right to fire that person.

And "valued employee?" Let's be honest here, barristers don't exactly have a hard barrier of entry. You are placing Faye in way too much importance. Dora currently has more people working for her then she ever did before. Not counting Faye and Dora, there are, I believe, 4 employees working under Dora. This is why she needed an assistant, the workload was becoming too much to bear. More employees means more paperwork. Guess what happens when you fire an employee? Also, even if we went with your way, Dora would STILL have to work extra hours and reschedule everything because Faye would suddenly not be working for a few weeks. So...how does that factor into "good business"?

Look, I don't know you, but my experiences with people who are alcoholics is this: if they want to drink, THEY WILL DRINK! It doesn't matter if you try and lay them off for a while. It doesn't matter if they live in their car. It doesn't matter if they don't have two pennies to rub together. THEY. WILL. DRINK. They will come up with every excuse in the dictionary just to get another sip. It, quite frankly, is not worth keeping a "valuable" employee if this behavior continues. Because, quite frankly, their value just sank to rock bottom. Especially if Dora gave a warning.

And as for running a business. Yes, Dora now has a huge burden on her shoulders. Guess what? Dealing with that burden is infinitely easier than dealing with an employee who refuses to listen. She might not even have to hire another person to replace Faye. Dale currently could fill that gap. That man would love getting extra hours in. Problem solved. While it isn't that easy, it is still better than dealing with a potential lawsuit. You are placing friendship at a level with Dora's business. When a solution involves a scenario where Dora could lose her sole income, Dora is justified in placing the business above friendship.

[grez]

But then again, a film set is nothing like a coffee shop.

Maybe not to you, but for Dora, CoD is more or less everything, right?

[Is it cold in here?]

It can be good business to try to salvage someone.

Dora may have seen enough alcoholics in her life to recognize the pattern and conclude that no management tool at her disposal could redeem the situation.

[Zalder]

I for one would like to see Faye go home for a few days, we can get some interaction between her and her mom.  That will reveal some more backstory I'm sure, maybe explain a bit more (in addition to what we already know about her dad and her abandonment issues) why she is so quick to be self destructive.

[Tova]

I'm finding this debate quite interesting.

But!

Given that Dora's very livelihood is at stake - the very thing she has poured her self into and which defines her - I would not be so judgemental even if I disagreed with her decision.

[Is it cold in here?]

Ooh, interesting. Her problems are so severe that it's possible there were pre-existing conditions before her dad put a bullet through her life.

[TRVA123]

I think Dora's choice to fire Faye was a good choice, both in terms of character and in more objective terms.

Dora is not responsible for Fayes actions. Dora has no control over what Faye does when she is not at work. In fact, Dora has been actively trying to overcome her own control issues and to back off and trust other people in her life.

Dora also might not have any experience dealing with alcoholism. Her reactions won't be the actions proscribed by a "dealing with alcoholism" textbook. What is more important is that her actions are in character.

Faye has a problem. She is hurting, and an alcoholic, and depressed. This does not mean that Faye is not responsible for her actions, nor does it mean that Dora should sacrifice her business and lively hood to support and possibly enable Faye.

Maybe when Dora gets off shift she will organize an intervention. Maybe she will make sure Faye sees her therapist as soon as possible.

[Is it cold in here?]

I wonder if people in the QC world can get insurance that covers therapy when they're unemployed.

[TRVA123]

I wonder if CoD provides insurance. Assuming the ACA even exists in their universe, Dora employs fewer than 50 people. She wouldn't be obligated to provide insurance to her employees.

[Is it cold in here?]

Dora said something about health insurance but it might have been a joke.

[Stoon]

What I'm surprised about is Faye looks like she's surprised.  It's not as if she wasn't warned, and didn't know she was in the wrong.  If she wasn't afraid of being fired she wouldn't be sneaking around drinking in the back room instead of out in the open.

[explicit]

In Massachusetts I believe the limit is 10 and not 50 (my uncle owns a business and states it's the biggest reason for why he doesn't expand).

But that's not the type of business (CoD) that can usually afford to give its employees insurance.

[Is it cold in here?]

There's a famous gravestone inscription "I expected this but not so soon".

Faye had gotten very used to having that job and having Dora put up with her.

[Alphawolf55]

The fact therapy is so easy and that AI have rights suggest far more liberal political environment.

Also Faye looks surprised because she was expecting her friendship to save her.

[Is it cold in here?]

Marten's first job, crappy as it was, included health insurance. On the other hand that was a much larger business than Coffee of Doom.

[MrNumbers]

But then again, a film set is nothing like a coffee shop.

Maybe not to you, but for Dora, CoD is more or less everything, right?

Thus my palpable sarcasm.

1. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2866 is Faye trying to get permission to drink

Which was, as we established, a cry for help from Faye which Dora played off, mostly, in the next panel that you linked. That's her dropping the ball as a manager more than it is Faye fucking up as an employee. It would have been smarter for Dora to see the risk and not give her a shift until she knew she wasn't at-risk. That didn't happen.

Instead we get the conversation here:

2. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2867 is Dora telling her not to drink at work

Where Dora does give her a fair warning, but absolutely no reprimand or discipline. So, as we've established, she might as well just have given lip service. This is absolutely Faye's fault, but because there wasn't a disciplinary action, I stand by my statement: She shouldn't have been terminated. It wasn't a repeat offense.

And:

3. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2875 is Faye the next morning deciding to continue to drink

Is a personal problem, not a professional problem. Now, had she called in sick at that point, it would have been unprofessional, but it wouldn't have resulted in today's nadir. That's neither here nor there though.

Also, it does not matter if she was a good manager before, it matters what she is doing right now.

It absolutely does matter if you're gauging whether or not a permanent solution is necessary. If something costs fifty dollars to fix, you want to know if it's your TV remote or the widescreen it's the remote for. The first is obviously a replacement. The second is a bargain. Unless it's going to need to be re-repaired every day, of course. The points you go on to list are examples of the latter. Faye hasn't proven that she will be permanently fucking up this hard, though.

Let's be honest here, barristers don't exactly have a hard barrier of entry.

Which is why it might be hard to find one who is as skilled at their job and at management who hasn't moved on to brighter things. Or happily entrenched in old positions due to this economy.

Also, even if we went with your way, Dora would STILL have to work extra hours and reschedule everything because Faye would suddenly not be working for a few weeks.

I cede to this point. Egregious error on my part, and I apologize.

Look, I don't know you, but my experiences with people who are alcoholics is this: if they want to drink, THEY WILL DRINK!

And my experience with business is that it's significantly harder to retrain people for a position than it is to stop the people already trained from it from fucking up. The other employees also typically work better with someone they already respect or are comfortable with. For better or worse, the other employees actually like Faye... most of the time. That's a huge positive to productivity. Think how much better you, personally, have worked with bosses that you respected. Better the devil you know.

So, sure Faye will still be an alcoholic and that will impact her personal life severely. If, however, she can keep that the hell out of Coffee of Doom, then that's completely irrelevant. Well... not completely. But irrelevant enough.

is not worth keeping a "valuable" employee if this behavior continues

Emphasis on if this behaviour continues. Single incident.

Dealing with that burden is infinitely easier than dealing with an employee who refuses to listen.

Yeah, because she ignored all the punishments from those other times she got drunk at work. Remember that other time she did this and... uh... hrrm. No, wait, what 'bout... no?

Ignoring a warning is different to a repeat offense. Only the latter should truly be grounds for a permanent termination.

Dale currently could fill that gap. That man would love getting extra hours in.

Not management material. Yet.

You are placing friendship at a level with Dora's business.

Hell, at this point I think it would be more suitable for Dora to ax the friendship than the business. I'm not confusing those around at all. This business is her livelihood, as other people have said, and Dora works really goddamn hard for it. This is a huge insult to Dora. Friendship should go, however, before a qualified manager does.

When a solution involves a scenario where Dora could lose her sole income, Dora is justified in placing the business above friendship.

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

Warning - while you were typing 13 newcomers challenged you. It looks like you're going to have to take 'em all!

[SJCrew]

Too many people jumping the gun about this comic.

Especially MrNumbers.

For one, nobody deserves a pass for showing up to work inebriated, even if friendship and seniority were factors. That's your entitlement talking. You know that in the real world if you were hired by anyone who took their shit seriously, you couldn't get away with any gross display of unprofessionalism no matter how isolated the incident.

Next, who said this was the end? We haven't even gotten to day two. For all we know, Faye can be fired for all of a day or a week before she patches things up or Dora seeks her out to get all 'supportive friend' on her, then give her the brass tacks before offering her job back. These things happen all the time in fiction.

She's still fired, that much is certain, but how quickly she gets her job back is all in how quickly she makes it up to Dora. Either way, Dora's ass is covered morally and professionally because she's the one who was lied to, and she's the one who has to look out for the health of the business so that everyone can get paid.

[jmucchiello]

Dora likes Faye. There's nothing saying she can't rehire her after Faye gets her act together.

[qc001]

I've seen a lot of posts mentioning the possible liability of keeping Faye on the payroll/at CoD while she is drunk.  While I agree with the myriad problems of having drunk employees in ANY field in the real world, CoD has canonically been rather abusive to its customers without any fear of reprisal, to wit:

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=81 - Faye mentions that Dora is "ten times worse" than she is, and made the DA cry for peeking down her shirt.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=259 - Dora (initially grudgingly) condones Faye's attack of a customer (in this case, Marten's ex, so justifiable?) using a dairy product, and outright praises her actions by the conclusion of the comic.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=285 & 286 - Dora is verbally abusive to a customer, Faye explains the business model of being abrasive to the clientele, and in 286, Dora says that she should consider reevaluating her business plan (of abusing the customers), as the customers are tipping Raven (man, we haven't seen Raven in a while!) for being friendly to them.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=654 - Dora and Faye are thrilled because the local write-up has brought in tons of new business precisely BECAUSE everyone is so abusive.

http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1258 - The espresso machine explodes, potentially scalding Faye's face/chest, but Dora responds by asking if the espresso machine is okay (clearly not concerned about the possibility that Faye could be seriously injured, and if so, could sue CoD for medical expenses)

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2278 - Hosing the obstreperous customers MUST be legal at CoD if Hannelore is willing to engage in such an activity.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2468 - Dora is concerned that a spider might have bitten Sam, which is perhaps the first inkling of worrying about anyone's personal safety while in the store, and noting that a basement full of spiders is a health hazard.  Of course, Dora's concern might be due more to the fact that Sam is Jim's kid, since she routinely has her employees go into the basement to pick up the coffee.  (Also, one hundred strips later, there are still a ton of spiders in the basement, so clearly Dora didn't actually do anything about it.)

Meanwhile, in variously sampled CoD strips, even if the dialogue topic isn't specifically the customers, the Specials on the blackboard continue to speak to CoD's...antipathy towards its customers (most just involve horrific-sounding food or drink items, but a couple of non-food ones stuck out to me):

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1288 - "We murder your pets and burn your house down. -$3.75"

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1880 - "Cactus up the _______" (we can guess the rest!)

(Random note: whenever Hannelore is on the clock, the Specials menu is always very friendly!)

Anyway, with this established in-comic history and Dora's policies, I find it difficult to justify the idea that Faye being drunk at work would lead to any serious liability vis a vis the safety of the customers leading to a lawsuit.  Not that I wish to condone being drunk at work by any stretch of the imagination, but in QCVerse, at CoD, customer abuse is the house blend, so the idea that Dora being afraid of repercussions due to Faye unintentionally injuring a customer or somesuch is preposterous.  To say otherwise is in direct violation of canon since the beginning of the strip.

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

[Jumping back through the discussion a bit]

Yeah, Tai's party at the library is this weekend, QC-time. In the past, parties in QC have brought reconciliation to plots, but I'm more expecting an expanding shitstorm at this one. Or maybe it will be entirely separate from Faye and Dora, just serving as a distraction for Marten to not be around when everything is (metaphorically) burning down.

[Yada Yada 3 new replies, forum's busy today]

[plusorminus]

And once again the lovely Dora-hate rears its head. Huzzah!

It's cool for people who have despised Dora since she "stole Marten" from Faye to now take a collective dump on her for actually drawing a hard line against ickle Faye, but I'm sure that when/if Faye cabbages Marten and Claire's relationship, all of a sudden Faye will have a "problem." Right now Faye coming in drunk, lying, and trying to sneak a drink at work is at the same level of her making a customer a pickle/peanut butter monstrosity. Alrighty then. Or would it have been cool if Sam had come in while Faye was plastered and gotten her face burned off by a blowtorch? That would have been cool with ya'll? Rockin'.


At this point I hope Jeph kills Dora off. There can be a tearful Tai/Bailey reunion and Sven can but CoD and turn it into a recording studio and Penny and the rest can be retrained into sound engineers or something. Marten and Claire can buy part-interest in Secret Bakery and the real hijinks can ensue. Ooh, maybe even  have Faye kill Dora, because hey, why the fuck not, Faye will be forgiven anything and I swear to fucking god some of you will only be satisfied when Dora's head is literally on a fucking stake outside the doors of CoD.

[MrNumbers]

Too many people jumping the gun about this comic.

Especially MrNumbers.

OI! Mate. Mate.

For one, nobody deserves a pass for showing up to work inebriated, even if friendship and seniority were factors. That's your entitlement talking. You know that in the real world if you were hired by anyone who took their shit seriously, you couldn't get away with any gross display of unprofessionalism no matter how isolated the incident.

1: What entitlement? That's a hell of an insinuation to make.

2: You're also insinuating I wish Faye should get away with it. It's clearly stated I want her to be severely reprimanded, with a lot of financial penalties. Termination is not literally the only thing in the world that ever works.

Next, who said this was the end?

... is Dora going to say "Is what I will say if you don't get your act together"? That would be one hell of a twist.

We haven't even gotten to day two. For all we know, Faye can be fired for all of a day or a week before she patches things up or Dora seeks her out to get all 'supportive friend' on her, then give her the brass tacks before offering her job back. These things happen all the time in fiction.

Which is exactly the kind of reprimand I'm endorsing. Except you don't call that a termination. That... I mean... if that turns out to be the case, I'll be incredibly vindicated. So I've still yet to see why you've singled me out?

She's still fired, that much is certain, but how quickly she gets her job back is all in how quickly she makes it up to Dora. Either way, Dora's ass is covered morally and professionally because she's the one who was lied to, and she's the one who has to look out for the health of the business so that everyone can get paid.

Again, agreed.

... why was I singled out, exactly. If she gets hired back in two weeks, it's just another version of what I was saying Dora should do.

[MrNumbers]

*Snip!*

Can I just say how much I love you, right now?

Everything this dude said, right here, ties in to:

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

This thing I've said, right here.

Thank you so much, QC001, for doing all that wonderful legwork for me so that I didn't have to.

[explicit]

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

This thing I've said, right here.

I'm going to go with a lot of things, like so many. It's a little thing called negligence, it's very costly for a business like, this business may not get to exist anymore costly. Especially for a small business like that.

[Tova]

... why was I singled out, exactly. If she gets hired back in two weeks, it's just another version of what I was saying Dora should do.

Time out! You've been telling us how what she already did was wrong, not about what she should do next.

And while I'm at it, your "palpable " sarcasm was not, I'm afraid. I'm yet to understand how your film set scenario does not apply here.

[MrNumbers]

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

I'm going to go with a lot of things, like so many. It's a little thing called negligence, it's very costly for a business like, this business may not get to exist anymore costly. Especially for a small business like that.

Don't get me confused with a naif, sir. I understand there are a lot of things Faye could have done that would have been, or could have been, harmful to the small business's reputation.

That's not what I asked though.

I asked what she could have done that would have been more harmful to it than her termination, considering the current nature of Coffee Of Doom's reputation.

Time out! You've been telling us how what she already did was wrong, not about what she should do next.

Seriously. A massive pay dock and the loss of a few shifts for a while. There are levels between "Nothing/Coddling" and "Termination".

From literally my first post. Which was then subsequently followed up with what I meant by 'the loss of a few shifts for a while' as 'at least no shifts for a week, probably two'.

A fortnight of no income is hell on your savings when you're actively trying to piss it away on alcohol.

And while I'm at it, your "palpable " sarcasm was not, I'm afraid. I'm yet to understand how your film set scenario does not apply here.

My sarcasm should have been palpable for the reason you said: There isn't a reason why the film set scenario shouldn't apply here. I was daring someone to comment on how my personal production experience doesn't relate to the operation of a small business in some way.

[TRVA123]

I would say that the business being sued out of orbit for negligence would be more harmful to the business than Faye being terminated. Or any person being harmed in any way through Faye's drunken antics.

[MrNumbers]

I would say that the business being sued out of orbit for negligence would be more harmful to the business than Faye being terminated. Or any person being harmed in any way through Faye's drunken antics.

We are talking about the same business that has threatened customers with a broadsword they keep under the counter at all times, right?

And do you forget, so soon, about the Malaysian Battle Spatula? http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=540

EDIT: Oh, yes, and there's also this http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1723

[Truec]

I'm with the numeric gentleman on this one.  If Faye gets to come back once she's gotten her shit together, then she was never really fired.

I'm also of the opinion that Dora's been a pretty crappy friend up to this point, taking action, be it by really firing Faye or just giving her the boot until she straightens out, is the first thing she's done to try and help her friend, and it seems she wasn't even thinking about that, only about getting rid of a liability.  Which isn't a bad mindset, Dora's a business owner first and foremost.  But she had other options, and if Faye is really fired, she took the most aggressive option without a second thought.

It never should have gotten this far though, because after yesterday's (in comic time) episode of Faye wanting to drink at work, and her stated intention to stay drunk whenever she's conscious, Dora should have done something, anything, other than letting her go home to get drunk again when her shift was up.  Good boss, good business owner, crap friend.

Also, this isn't the first case of Faye drinking at work, and she never made an effort to hide it in the past.  I can't remember any instance of her drinking on the clock with Dora in the shop, but almost definitely around other employees.  The emergency bourbon wasn't exactly a secret.

Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to hide in a sewer while the guy reenacting a sidescrolling beat'em up fights them all.

[SJCrew]

... why was I singled out, exactly. If she gets hired back in two weeks, it's just another version of what I was saying Dora should do.

It's not. What you're saying is that the punishment was too harsh and irreversible. What I'm saying is the complete inverse: a) she can be planning to give her the job back all along, but had to send a strong enough message to get through to her, a message that "Go home" or "You're suspended" could not, and b) even if she wasn't expecting an immediate turnaround from Faye, she is doing what any good boss would do in her situation by setting an irrevokable standard for her business and her employers. If anybody else is having a shit time, they will know not to go 'full Faye', and take it out on the job.

[TRVA123]

I would say that the business being sued out of orbit for negligence would be more harmful to the business than Faye being terminated. Or any person being harmed in any way through Faye's drunken antics.

We are talking about the same business that has threatened customers with a broadsword they keep under the counter at all times, right?

And do you forget, so soon, about the Malaysian Battle Spatula? http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=540

EDIT: Oh, yes, and there's also this http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1723

oh, you mean those things that WERE NEVER USED TO HURT CUSTOMERS?

[Is it cold in here?]

SJCrew, don't let it get personal.

MrNumbers, I thought about your question, and a possible answer is "starting a fire". She's done it before.

[jmucchiello]

I'm with the numeric gentleman on this one.  If Faye gets to come back once she's gotten her shit together, then she was never really fired.

Yes, but Faye, right now, does not know she might be rehired. And that's why using the words "You're fired!" are better than "Take some time off and get your shit together." The shorter, direct firing has a sharper sting across the cheek that might help wake Faye up.

[xaszatm]

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

Break a coffee machine. Break a window. Actually harm an patron or an employee (such as breaking a bone or seriously wounding someone with the dangerous weapons they have lying around). Ruin relations between Dora and her supplier. Sexually harass an employee or patron (you're drunk, logic and common sense left the window long ago). Unproductive behavior at work. Sleeping on the job. Finally crossing the line with her fellow employees (who have noted that they heavily dislike working under Faye). Causing employees to quit because of clear double standards. The destruction of property, such as the coffee beans. Failure to properly clear the basement of spiders. Do I need to continue?

And Faye's "loyal" customer base doesn't seem to be doing much. Dora isn't making much of a profit. When was the last time we even heard of people coming to the coffee shop to hear her snark? That fad has most likely passed. And even if it hadn't, you are placing FAR too much power to Faye here. Faye shouldn't be fired because she is too important? It's almost like saying we shouldn't default a bank because "they are too big to fail". Remember what happened? Because it wasn't good, let me tell you. You do NOT drink on the job. That is the basis for an immediate termination. I don't care if you sold the most coffee or are the best employee, you just showed me that you think you are more important then anyone else and will break any rules I set.

[Is it cold in here?]

Come to think of it, a violent drunk around a broadsword and a Battle Spatula is a "recipe for unpleasantness", the kind of unpleasantness that can run to five figures in no time.

Global Moderator Comment

It's only right for feelings to run hot on this story arc. Anyone who's been close to an alcoholic is now thinking of the worst experiences of their lives. Anyone who's been ignored by a friend after threatening suicide, including the slow suicide of being drunk every waking hour, is going to be hurt seeing Dora's failure to intervene. That said, PLEASE do not take it out on other forum members.

[Oenone]

When I was a shift manager at a small coffee shop, one of my responsibilities was setting up the soup du jour for the lunch rush. I started at 5a, opened for 6a, and worked until noon or 2, depending on the day.

Normally the soup was delivered by the co owner around 10, and normally my main thing was setting it up in our giant couldron, stirring in chicken broth or half and half, and letting it heat through. One day, I had had to close the night before and still got stuck opening. I was wicked exhausted, but present because I really loved the shop. I don't remember what the soup was, but I swear I thought it was supposed to have half and half. Long story short, i added diary to something that made it curdle, gave myself and the other shift manager food poisoning, and we had to toss about 120 dollars of food, and find someone to cover our shifts. I didn't get fired, but I probably should've been. And I wasn't even drunk! Between that, the times me or another barista got burned by the steam wand, the time I burnt my nipple because of a shitty loose spigot... Goodness, there are too many jabbity bits and food safety issues to work behind the bar impaired. That's not even going into stuff like quality control, since if you're not at Starbucks, you're probably eyeballing the foaming and temperature for the milk and the quality of your shots.

[xaszatm]

I would say that the business being sued out of orbit for negligence would be more harmful to the business than Faye being terminated. Or any person being harmed in any way through Faye's drunken antics.

We are talking about the same business that has threatened customers with a broadsword they keep under the counter at all times, right?

And do you forget, so soon, about the Malaysian Battle Spatula? http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=540

EDIT: Oh, yes, and there's also this http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1723

oh, you mean those things that WERE NEVER USED TO HURT CUSTOMERS?

THANK YOU! The CoD do flagrantly abuse and insult their patrons, but they rarely go beyond that. They have hundreds of dangerous items lying around BUT THEY NEVER USED THEM AGAINST OTHER CUSTOMERS. Faye actually injuring a customer would be completely different than threats or snark.

[TRVA123]

... why was I singled out, exactly. If she gets hired back in two weeks, it's just another version of what I was saying Dora should do.

It's not. What you're saying is that the punishment was too harsh and irreversible. What I'm saying is the complete inverse: a) she can be planning to give her the job back all along, but had to send a strong enough message to get through to her, a message that "Go home" or "You're suspended" could not, and b) even if she wasn't expecting an immediate turnaround from Faye, she is doing what any good boss would do in her situation by setting an irrevokable standard for her business and her employers. If anybody else is having a shit time, they will know not to go 'full Faye', and take it out on the job.

This, so much this.

I just don't get why people are trying to give Faye a pass on this. She fucked up. There are consequences when you fuck up.

Yeah, you might say that Dora is being a bad friend (although I don't think we've let this play out enough to make that call) But Dora has to be the boss first. She can't just think of Faye. She has to think of her business, herself, and her other employees. Friendship doesn't trump those things.

Also, Faye has to realize that her friends/coworkers have breaking points. I don't get why people are jumping on Dora for not hearing Fayes cry for help, but people aren't jumping on Faye for pushing Dora too far.

[Leveton]

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

Spill hot coffee on a customer. A customer who sues. In court, it comes out that Faye was drunk and Dora knew it before it happened. Compensatory damages covering medical care, as well as the famed "pain and suffering." Punitive damages for knowingly allowing a drunk employee to handle scalding-hot liquids around customers. Because of that same gross negligence, Coffee of Doom's liability insurance won't pay any claims from the suit. In such a lawsuit, compensatory and punitive damages could EASILY surpass the point at which Dora would lose Coffee of Doom (and any other assets Dora has that are not protected by U.S. bankruptcy law). Everyone at Coffee of Doom is out of a job.

[plusorminus]

Also, Faye has to realize that her friends/coworkers have breaking points. I don't get why people are jumping on Dora for not hearing Fayes cry for help, but people aren't jumping on Faye for pushing Dora too far.

Because that's not how it works here. Dora sealed her fate with much of this crowd when she had the temerity to ask Marten out when Faye made it clear nothing was going to happen between them anytime soon.

Oenone's (I love that name, yay Greek mythology!) anecdote is very apropos here. Suppose a customer with a severe nut allergy who makes that clear when ordering asks for a nonfat skim mocha and drunk!Faye makes it with Almond milk and adds a dash of hazelnut syrup to it? Someone dying would definitely be a buzzkill for the cafe and Dora would be lucky to escape with her ass intact, especially if it were to come out that Faye had been warned before and Dora let things stand.

But by all means, Dora-haters, commence with burning her in effigy. Dumb bitch deserves it for not being omnipotent and existing and ... stuff.

[xaszatm]

Name one thing Faye could have done whilst drunk that would have been more damaging to the business than Faye's irreparable termination, knowing Faye has a loyal customer base that come in just for her patented scorn and that her termination is almost a guaranteed drop in loyal, repeat customers?

Spill hot coffee on a customer. A customer who sues. In court, it comes out that Faye was drunk and Dora knew it before it happened. Compensatory damages covering medical care, as well as the famed "pain and suffering." Punitive damages for knowingly allowing a drunk employee to handle scalding-hot liquids around customers. Because of that same gross negligence, Coffee of Doom's liability insurance won't pay any claims from the suit. In such a lawsuit, compensatory and punitive damages could EASILY surpass the point at which Dora would lose Coffee of Doom (and any other assets Dora has that are not protected by U.S. bankruptcy law). Everyone at Coffee of Doom is out of a job.

And that's not including the dangerous weapons the CoD have around like the broadsword and the blowtorch. Do people really think that threatening someone with a broadsword and accidentally injuring someone with said broadsword are the same thing?

[Is it cold in here?]

Another hypothetical disaster would be if Faye mishandled food and someone got sick. The disaster would come when the health department came in for an inspection. Between the spiders in the basement and the science project in the carafe (strip 729) CoD would get closed the same day.

[MrNumbers]

SJCrew, don't let it get personal.

MrNumbers, I thought about your question, and a possible answer is "starting a fire". She's done it before.

But then Hannelore would get to see the sexy firemen again!

Oh, wait, they're all gross and sweaty in person.

*Sigh*.

Yeah, point ceded on that one. A fire would definitely be a thing. Even if it'd finally get all the basement spiders.

Come to think of it, a violent drunk around a broadsword and a Battle Spatula is a "recipe for unpleasantness", the kind of unpleasantness that can run to five figures in no time.

... I want to see this strip now.

oh, you mean those things that WERE NEVER USED TO HURT CUSTOMERS?

You do realize that the threat is still enough to claim an assault charge, with a deadly weapon at that, and there's more than enough customers in the store at any given time to make it an open-and-shut court case?

So... yeah. Unless Faye got drunk enough that she thought actually stabbing someone was a good idea (which I don't think was the case... yet...) I stand my ground on this one.

It's not. What you're saying is that the punishment was too harsh and irreversible. What I'm saying is the complete inverse: a) she can be planning to give her the job back all along, but had to send a strong enough message to get through to her, a message that "Go home" or "You're suspended" could not, and b) even if she wasn't expecting an immediate turnaround from Faye, she is doing what any good boss would do in her situation by setting an irrevokable standard for her business and her employers. If anybody else is having a shit time, they will know not to go 'full Faye', and take it out on the job.

If nothing else, I'm just going to say that your former point directly contradicts your latter point and that your former point doesn't guarantee that Faye, upon termination, will come back by the time Dora decides it's okay, because someone could get pretty goddamn desperate with a job hunt and luck out just so you could 'make your point'. I really, sincerely doubt this was Dora's plan for a whole variety of reasons, least of which is Dora's just not that subtle.

Warning - while you were typing 4 new people logged in to yell at you. Prepare your Malaysian Battle Spatula for rebuttal.

THANK YOU! The CoD do flagrantly abuse and insult their patrons, but they rarely go beyond that. They have hundreds of dangerous items lying around BUT THEY NEVER USED THEM AGAINST OTHER CUSTOMERS. Faye actually injuring a customer would be completely different than threats or snark.

1) Which is still already grounds for numerous court cases and
2) there's still no guarantee that being drunk would have made Faye carry out the threat, so the point's moot. I brought it up to point out Faye being drunk isn't more of a lawsuit magnet than anything they already do.

Spill hot coffee on a customer. A customer who sues. In court, it comes out that Faye was drunk and Dora knew it before it happened. Compensatory damages covering medical care, as well as the famed "pain and suffering." Punitive damages for knowingly allowing a drunk employee to handle scalding-hot liquids around customers. Because of that same gross negligence, Coffee of Doom's liability insurance won't pay any claims from the suit. In such a lawsuit, compensatory and punitive damages could EASILY surpass the point at which Dora would lose Coffee of Doom (and any other assets Dora has that are not protected by U.S. bankruptcy law). Everyone at Coffee of Doom is out of a job.

If the coffee is served at normal, legal temperatures, the above scenario doesn't happen. The court case you're referencing, the McDonald's coffee at the very least, were coffee spills from coffee served way, way above legal maximum temperature, which resulted in large skin grafts. The pain and suffering addition was for McDonalds initially refusing to take responsibility for their ludicrously illegal actions, and dragging it into the court in the first place.

The rest? Completely valid point. Except for the fact that Faye could have been sent home without being fired, which renders the rest, once more, moot.

I asked what she could have done drunk that would have been worse. This hinges on Dora not knowing, so her insurance can point out gross negligence. Either Dora's insurance would have covered, as she didn't know her employee was drunk, or Faye being sued directly, in the case of -- above -- it being taken as an assault case. Neither of which destroys her business.

Warning - while you were typing 3 new kids appeared on your lawn. Equip your old man cane and yell at them

[link=topic=30386.msg1294971#msg1294971 date=1421737265]
Another hypothetical disaster would be if Faye mishandled food and someone got sick. The disaster would come when the health department came in for an inspection. Between the spiders in the basement and the science project in the carafe (strip 729) CoD would get closed the same day.

That's... still more Dora's fault than Faye's. Incredibly unlikely, seeing as she hands muffins to people with tongs, but if she did get drunk-lazy enough to think handling the baked goods with her bare hands was okay, you're right, that would be a complete clusterfuck. Point ceded.

[MrNumbers]

I also need to say, in big bold letters:

I don't dislike Dora. I think she made a rash decision, but I think, morally, she's in the clear here. There is no Dora-hate going on here.

[Alphawolf55]

You're missing a huge point. If Faye is lying about being drunk in the first place it makes Dora unable to accommodate her. Dora can't trust her and trust is a very important commidity in businesses like Doras especially since its clear that she hires people she knows usually.

[qc001]

Suppose a customer with a severe nut allergy who makes that clear when ordering asks for a nonfat skim mocha and drunk!Faye makes it with Almond milk and adds a dash of hazelnut syrup to it? Someone dying would definitely be a buzzkill for the cafe and Dora would be lucky to escape with her ass intact, especially if it were to come out that Faye had been warned before and Dora let things stand.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1123 - She already sort of did that, though Angus did not mention that he was lactose-intolerant prior to her making that particular drink (though unless he got his coffee black every day - which perhaps he did, since he would just throw it out - Angus likely would have asked for non-dairy creamers in his beverages, which he always ordered from Faye...)

[Is it cold in here?]

... I want to see this strip now.

Oh my, the possibilities. SWAT team standoff, Bianchi parents trying to calm her down with baked goods, Pintsize contributing to the crisis ...