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Faypocalypse Sven

9 (6.9%)

Claireten Snuggles

12 (9.2%)

Clintonhand Naughtyness

3 (2.3%)

Dora fires Faye - Drama and drunkenness ensues

50 (38.2%)

Clairemom and Martenmom accidentally meet

4 (3.1%)

Emily gets weirder (is that even possible?)

4 (3.1%)

Sven rescues Faye - Dora gets wrong end of stick

12 (9.2%)

The surprise return on Angus - Blood and mayhem ensue

5 (3.8%)

Purple Monkey Dishwasher

7 (5.3%)

Whatever it is, it'll be completely unexpected

22 (16.8%)

ALIENS!

3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[Oenone]

Yay! So jazzed when people don't assume I misspelled Oneone.

Speaking of drink prep: fudging drink orders because you think someone's ordering soy or whatever to be a snot is never funny. I could see drunk!Faye doing that as a joke, not realizing that someone specifically wanted XYZ done Q way because of allergies. Or heck, even cross contaminating the steam wands. I was kind of anal about wiping them down regularly, but the other shift manager specifically designated one as the nondairy and one as dairy.

It also sucks to open when someone else is slacking off. Everyone is in a rush, no one wants to be late for work, and if it's just you working because someone's hungover or late themselves, it's easy to get a queue of angry, uncaffeinated customers who are now angry they still have to give you money for their drinks.

seriously Faye would suck as a co worker.

[TRVA123]

Mr Numbers, out of curiosity, why is it so important to you that Faye not be fired?

Especially, as numerous people have pointed out, Faye could be rehired when she gets her shit back together. At this point it almost seems like a semantics argument; "It would be just like Faye was fired, but without Dora having to say the word fired!"


On your  point about CoD being sued because there are weapons present on premise... As far as I remember, the weapons are never used to threaten someone who isn't a friend. Even if that isn't the case, there is a difference between threatening someone with a weapon in a clearly sarcastic way, and hurting someone with a weapon.

[Y]

I also think this was more of a wake up call. It also means she might follow Angus now, for a while though (otherwise she would be on the bus as well).

[qc001]

On your  point about CoD being sued because there are weapons present on premise... As far as I remember, the weapons are never used to threaten someone who isn't a friend. Even if that isn't the case, there is a difference between threatening someone with a weapon in a clearly sarcastic way, and hurting someone with a weapon.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1323 - Well, this springs to mind.  No actual violence (probably, we don't see any sword-scars when Cosette appears a couple of strips later), but certainly a verbal threat from Dora.  And this was before Cosette was a regular of any kind (it's only her second appearance, IIRC).  Faye's comment of it being Penny's turn to clean up the blood is clearly a joke, but still...perhaps there's a secret seamy underbelly to CoD - a racist murdercult!

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I am amused by all the emotion this stirred up. I don't know why.

[plusorminus]

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1123 - She already sort of did that, though Angus did not mention that he was lactose-intolerant prior to her making that particular drink (though unless he got his coffee black every day - which perhaps he did, since he would just throw it out - Angus likely would have asked for non-dairy creamers in his beverages, which he always ordered from Faye...)

I hear you on that, but causing someone to get the runs is not on the level of causing someone to go into anaphylactic shock. I know you're not equating the two, and I'm not trying to dismiss your point. It's just that as you said, Angus didn't specify. It could be argued that Faye should have asked, but he didn't make it clear and it was an honest mistake. If Faye, impaired by liquor, were to add dangerous, life-threatening substances to a customer's drink after said customer alerted her to a severe allergy would be grounds for Dora's arse to be nailed to the wall.

I'm sensitive about this because my fiance has a nut allergy and in college was nearly murdered by an asshole server who thought my guy was "being difficult" about asking how the food was prepared because of said allergy and deliberately doused his food in peanut oil. My fiance did not sue the restaurant, though I think he should have (this was before we met). The server was fired, however, word got out, and the business went under about a year later.

But, to take your point, if Faye were to do that again, and instead of the runs, the customer got severe cramping and vomitting requiring hospitalization... yeah. No good. This is a shop that handles foodstuffs, some of which are served at extremely hot temperatures. There can't be anything left to chance here. An impaired employee is just asking for trouble.

I also resent that it seems Dora can't win for losing in this case. If she shrugged it off and Faye caused mayhem, then she would have been lambasted as too permissive. There was actually nothing that Dora could do in this case that wouldn't result in some sort of (IMO unfair) backlash against her, and as a fan of hers, it gets tiresome. I'm all for holding her accountable when she does something irredeemably dumb (the "hug" incident, ignoring Marten's stricture to stay out of his porn, the Sven stuff), but it just is frustrating as hell that there is such a large and vocal contingent of people who will use any logic to justify their dislike of her.

[MrNumbers]

Mr Numbers, out of curiosity, why is it so important to you that Faye not be fired?

Especially, as numerous people have pointed out, Faye could be rehired when she gets her shit back together. At this point it almost seems like a semantics argument; "It would be just like Faye was fired, but without Dora having to say the word fired!"

Genuinely because I purely think it's a poor business decision made more out of hurt than calm thought. Or maybe Dora thinking she's trying to be calm and rational and overshooting the mark.

If I genuinely thought Dora was doing this just so she could hire Faye back, well... I don't think that's the case. Dora isn't the kind of person to do that. For one thing, it's incredibly dishonest, and for another, Dora doesn't have that subtlety. Faye's gone. That's it.

If she was just going to be hired back, then it would be better to be upfront about that and hammer in that this is an intentional punishment rather than lie about it for shock/scare value because... do I really need to explain that one?

And if you honestly believe that it would be better that Faye be hired back, why are you so determined to argue against me that a two weeks unpaid vacation combined with a hefty salary cut wouldn't be good enough?

there is a difference between threatening someone with a weapon in a clearly sarcastic way

I have PTSD. A surprising amount of people do. If you waved a weapon at any of those people in a 'sarcastic way', your attorney would be facepalming so goddamn hard.

"Why did a coffee shop need a broadsword anyway?"

"We use it to threaten customers whose drink order is too complicated, or if they use a Starbucks coffee size." <- Remember that? That happened.

Warning - while you were typing 3 people overtook you. Fire that blue shell you've been saving.

I am amused by all the emotion this stirred up. I don't know why.

Probably because you're a baaad person?

[explicit]

See, that's what I feel is weird. If you state this is poor business decision I'm going to have to vehemently disagree.

Say if I'm a business owner, an employee of mine is drunk on the job; unless there was a work sponsored event with alcohol just before that that person is getting so very fired. With the amount of money Dora is working with that's basically all she can do. She does not have the resources to see someone through a detox program and even if she did she'd still be in the right simply because being drunk at work is pretty... pretty bad... Again, it only takes Faye to fuck up once while she's drunk and the business will probably be destroyed (through the process of law). That's a huge risk for little reward, the two things you usually aren't looking for in "good business decision".

Regardless of friendship or feelings, the decision ought to be the same.

[qc001]

I hear you on that, but causing someone to get the runs is not on the level of causing someone to go into anaphylactic shock.

Oh, believe me, I completely agree.  Food alterations leading to anaphylaxis are no joke, regardless of whether it occurred due to a purely innocent accident, alcohol/chemical-induced negligence, or malicious intent.

On a not-really-related note, I would love to see a strip or two that shows what Angus has been up to since we last saw him in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2815.

[MrNumbers]

See, that's what I feel is weird. If you state this is poor business decision I'm going to have to vehemently disagree.

You don't have to put Faye through a detox program. You don't have to spend any money. Hell, cutting her salary but keeping the same level of competent employee, since they have that incident hanging over their head, is tantamount to a bargain, with faint undertones of blackmail...

If Faye ever, ever, did this again, I'd be completely agreeing with you. But a lone incident should not a years-long career inherently break.

EDIT:

Let's put this in the context of being caught drink-driving, a situation which very realistically gets people killed.

Here in Australia a drink-driving offense has an immediate 250 dollar fine, $500 dollars maximum if the court finds you off, for a first offense. You also get five demerit points: About the same as going 35 kilometers - about 20 miles - over the speed limit.

You need to lose 12 in a three year period before you lose your license.

[Is it cold in here?]

Mr Numbers, out of curiosity, why is it so important to you that Faye not be fired?

He's answered that himself, but I'd like to add the insight that there are plenty of people who've been seriously hurt by hip-shooting overreaction in real life, and Dora pushes their buttons.

[TRVA123]

I'm actually surprised that no one has (until right now) brought up the fact that Faye has deliberately doused a customer with milk. I mean, as a customer, I would be more likely to sue over that (if I were the trigger happy type) than to sue over a sword being stuck into a counter.

I just feel that there are so many good reasons why Dora firing Faye was the right course; many of which have already been stated in this thread, but whatever, sure I'll rehash them for you:
-Dora covers her businesses ass in terms of liability
-Sets firm boundaries for all employees about what is acceptable behaviour, and what the consequences will be.
-Shows other employees that Faye is not immune from rules just because she is friends with Dora
-Shows Faye that her choices have serious consequences
-Might show Faye that she is on a serious downward spiral, and she needs to snap out of it before she crashes.

Honestly, if I were in Fayes position, I would rather be fired than publicly shamed. "yeah, you can stay, but we are going to take your position and some of your salary away from you!"
That might just be me, though.

He's answered that himself, but I'd like to add the insight that there are plenty of people who've been seriously hurt by hip-shooting overreaction in real life, and Dora pushes their buttons.

I honestly have no idea what you mean by hip-shooting.

Dora often overreacts, but I don't think she is right now.

[explicit]

But it's not a lone incident, everyone knows Faye has alcohol issues. I also think that just punishing Faye like that would make things worse, but I cannot stipulate on that because I know nothing of psychology.

In my mind, it's an unnecessary risk for a small business owner to take. Not to mention, and I hope I'm not coming off as a huge dick, but Faye can be replaced. The shop had enough employees (keep in mind, it apparently only started with 3) and again, I hope I don't come off as that much of a dick, but making coffee isn't exactly the most skilled job and Faye's responsibilities as a manager weren't that high.

[MrNumbers]

I just feel that there are so many good reasons why Dora firing Faye was the right course; many of which have already been stated in this thread, but whatever, sure I'll rehash them for you:

Here is a list of things, from your reasons listed, that firing covers but not the serious punishment:

Now here is a list of things the punishment also covers from your list:
- It covers Dora's arse
- It shows firm boundaries and consequences for the other employees
- Shows other employees Faye is not immune to The Rules
- Shows Faye that her choices have serious consequences
- Shows Faye that she is on a serious downward spiral, and she needs to snap out of it before she might get actually fired for real.

Honestly, if I were in Fayes position, I would rather be fired than publicly shamed. "yeah, you can stay, but we are going to take your position and some of your salary away from you!"
That might just be me, though.

Which means that you agree that the punishment would be sufficiently severe.

[Is it cold in here?]

"Hip-shooting", metaphor for impulsive action with an implication of not taking normal care. Clearer when phrased as "shooting from the hip".

Dora's done it before and it's one of the first conclusions someone could likely draw when Dora does anything drastic.

This time of course there are sound business arguments for her action, as many people have pointed out.

[TRVA123]

Also, the point about killing Fayes career in being a barista.... yeah... no....

If she was in a franchise and had the opportunity to really advance, then maybe..

Also, she could probably get hired at another coffee shop. She would only need minimal training, and those sorts of jobs have a high turnover rate anyway.

I don't think Faye is particularly interested in a career. I think she is interested in security; and she needs to know that no job is so secure that you can expect to come to work drunk and keep your job.

Honestly, if I were in Fayes position, I would rather be fired than publicly shamed. "yeah, you can stay, but we are going to take your position and some of your salary away from you!"
That might just be me, though.

Which means that you agree that the punishment would be sufficiently severe.

no. I don't agree.

Dora firing Faye isn't a "punishment". Dora isn't punishing Faye. Dora is protecting herself and her business from the liability of a drunk employee.

What you are suggesting would be a "punishment".

There are some things in a professional environment that warrant immediate termination. Showing up drunk or high, stealing, sexually or physically assaulting someone, etc... I don't get why this is so shocking to some people on this forum.

[MrNumbers]

There are some things in a professional environment that warrant immediate termination. Showing up drunk or high, stealing, sexually or physically assaulting someone, etc... I don't get why this is so shocking to some people on this forum.

Can someone bring up all the times Faye and Penelope have physically assaulted each other or a customer without proportionate punishment?

[madamlark]

Crud, I was never going to do anything but lurk.  Damn it.

(And I just lost everything I typed with a bad click so I'm going to be briefer than I'd initially like.)

Faye seemed to be playing off her drunkenness with a lot of humor and I don't see Dora missing a call for help out of that, especially when Faye is so prone to just making jokes about her alcohol issues.  I didn't see that Dora should necessarily have read that as deeper hurt.  She's not seeing everything we see.  Faye has also been doing a lot of hiding of her true feelings lately, she's clearly decent at seeming functional.

Dora has stated her advice as far as she feels comfortable giving it as regards the situation and admitted that she's not a shrink so doesn't know how more to help.

She also has been quite clear that drinking and/or being drunk on the job is a no.  She stated it to all of the employees when Faye was promoted and again the day prior to Faye directly.  Faye ignored that.  How can she be sure Faye won't just ignore it again in the future?  Multiple warnings are enough, I would say.  I didn't think she'd fire Faye so quickly, if at all, but I'm not terribly surprised and don't think it was wrong.

Others have already stated it, she's a small business owner and she has to think of her livelihood.  If she cannot trust Faye to respect the warnings, especially being a manager, then she can't keep her on staff.  She wasn't cruel and she didn't rip into her, she was about as calm as I think anyone can be upon feeling so betrayed by a good friend.  I'm sure she knows Faye is hurting, but Faye is the one who didn't seek out additional help in the way or therapy.  And Dora hinted she should do so when she said she wasn't a psychologist.

Ok, there's my two cents.  May chime in for more in this arc, but hopefully I will go back to my lurker ways afterwards, too much to do taking care of my kiddos to stalk these forums, heh.

[Alphawolf55]

See, that's what I feel is weird. If you state this is poor business decision I'm going to have to vehemently disagree.

You don't have to put Faye through a detox program. You don't have to spend any money. Hell, cutting her salary but keeping the same level of competent employee, since they have that incident hanging over their head, is tantamount to a bargain, with faint undertones of blackmail...

If Faye ever, ever, did this again, I'd be completely agreeing with you. But a lone incident should not a years-long career inherently break.

EDIT:

Let's put this in the context of being caught drink-driving, a situation which very realistically gets people killed.

Here in Australia a drink-driving offense has an immediate 250 dollar fine, $500 dollars maximum if the court finds you off, for a first offense. You also get five demerit points: About the same as going 35 kilometers - about 20 miles - over the speed limit.

You need to lose 12 in a three year period before you lose your license.

A DUI can make you lose your license in one go in theUS

[BenRG]

Remember that this is Dora that we're talking about. Going a step too far is in-character for her. That said, I would argue that this is Dora the Friend acting here; a friend who has tried to ask her friend not to drink at work. The response? She carried on drinking and used deception and lies to do so. Dora, the insecure woman is sure to see that as a personal betrayal, making her reaction explicable, if not ideal.

The thing about Faye is that she's never gotten over her dad's suicide. She's had her emotions numbed by prescription meds and later by self-medicating with alcohol. Her ability to deal with emotional stresses of all kinds has atrophied away. She even needed to drink to deal with a guy saying that he loves her, something as diametrically opposed to a negative experience as can be imagined. In a very real sense, she's still standing next to her dad's fresh corpse in catatonic shock.

If this arc is to benefit her in any way, it will be in forcing her to deal with her emotions without a crutch. That will ultimately climax with accepting that Daddy is gone and isn't coming back. I think that she needs to mourn (she was originally committed and probably was too far under to do so before) and try to move on.

For Faye, this is only the start. Her aggressive nature will mean that she casts herself as the wronged party and she will alienate her friends trying to get what she wants: passive acceptance of how she currently wants to be. The reason behind my suicide post is because I believe that she will really push herself to the point that she honestly believe she has nothing left. The only way forward for her, IMHO, is to survive her own end-of-the-road crisis and realise that she wants to live badly enough to seek help to change and heal.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I think HannahRose has is basically right when she says Faye is a terrible person. But then most people are terrible people, and there's a little something wrong with just about every character's relationship decisions up to now, except Dale and Marigold, really. And with them it's not making good choices, it's the fact that explicitly don't know any better. There's no such thing as good choices in a first relationship.

But Faye really has ridden a remarkable wave of tolerance. And it seems less than likely that the wave is over, unless Jeph means to put Dora on a bus.

Which he might. It's toot early to tell what's actually happening here.

I'm amused, as I said before, by the emotion mostly because it all about treating the characters as real people. I use that tactic all the time, myself. It's the first stage of analysis. But it's not the last.

Speaking as a writer, for every action a character should face and equal an opposite punishment. There are so many ways main characters can make the right choice right now and have it blow up spectacularly, that it's not even funny. And the best part is, it doesn't matter how you define "right."

There's literally nothing Dora could do here that couldn't go horribly wrong, because there's nothing anyone can do in any situation that couldn't go horribly wrong. Even doing nothing can have negative consequences.

In the real world, a writer can't actually make every choice a character makes backfire, especially in an open ended story. Right now, it's too early to say whether Dora's choice here is actually critical to Dora's story. If it's not, then this is just a case of Faye's choice backfiring on her. Dora's just the messenger.

The fact is, Dora's best choice--and know this from watching a lot of alcoholics--is to fire Faye. No amount of support will make a change if Faye really is an alcoholic at this point and if she isn't the shock ought to open her eyes. But "best" and "right" are not always the same thing. Sometimes the only way to see which is which is to make a choice and see what happens.

[MrNumbers]

*Snip*

Alright, all of this.

I'm going to say: No further comment until I see tomorrow's strip. Dora's explanation and Faye's reaction.

Then I'll be comfortable making a further arse of myself.

[Doc]

Next: pregnancy!
And fire.

[plusorminus]

Beyond the Dora stuff, I'm actually intrigued as to how this will affect Claire and Marten. I'll admit to being dense as hell in some cases, so I was unaware that Claire was crushing on Marten until the bar night out. However, Claire was given the "rundown" of Marten and Faye's situation via Pintsize. I have no idea if she had any romantic feelings toward Marten at that time.

She does now, however, and she is known to be a bit of a stickler for protocol in the workplace and a bit of pedant. I really wonder what would happen if Marten takes Faye's part in this. I could see Claire seriously side-eyeing a person who would try to excuse and justify someone coming into work drunk and putting others at risk. It might cause her to think over what Pintsize told her and start questioning whether Marten is fully committed to dating her or if he still harbors feelings for Faye subconsciously hoping things might work out someday, and hey, Faye is single now ...

[Akima]

Well, things just got real. As a boss, I think Dora did the right thing. It also illustrates that being boss is difficult to combine with being friends. And to anyone thinking that Dora should have cut Faye slack because she's a friend, I'd point out that the obligations of friendship cut both ways. It is not honouring friendship to turn up to work drunk at a business owned by your friend.

[Japheree]

As far as it is worth anything, I both feel desperately sorry for Faye and fo the opinion that Dora did the right thing.

I feel sorry for Faye because I can empathize with her. I know what it is like to self medicate to the extent that it starts to negatively impact on your life. I also feel like perhaps losing her job is going to make her realize that booze is not compatible with any sort of happy life for her. I managed to make those two things work together for a long time because I was able as a graduate student, to garner a nice habit while being clever enough to complete my work on the days I felt okay.

Hopefully, like me, when it became clear I couldn't carry on doing this and have the financial security, professional and home life, she will take steps to stop. It has taken me a long time and it is a big struggle but I am getting there.

The good news for Faye is that if she manages to get herself clean in the next few months (and I hope to god she does) she can actually start working on the feelings deep inside and work out how to live her life instead of deferring the pain of change indefinitely by soaking it is whisky.

Faye is desperately depressed and up to now her drinking has been a clear case of self medicating. For those reasons I can't help but feel anything other than sorry for her.

Dora did the right thing.

[thedevilissix]

And I'm back from the relurk  

I have to say I'm in with the crowd in favour of the firing, as bad as it must seem for Faye. In every single place of work I've worked for, turning up to work drunk is classed as gross misconduct. The employer's response to that is either bring the employee concerned in front of a disciplinary panel whereby dismissal is the likely outcome (big businesses) or respond in much the same way Dora did (small businesses). It's called gross misconduct less because of "waah, look at this revolutionary, she turned up drunk, burn her" and more because of the practical possible consequences that might arise from Dora allowing Faye to continue working that day considering the state she was in, which have all already been mentioned here.
Indeed let's see what happens tomorrow, but whether it's temporary or not, if it gives Faye the wake-up call needed and diffuses a work clusterfuck that was waiting to happen, then I'm in favour.
As for Faye and whether or not Dora will be supportive still as a friend-I don't think Dora's will to do that is gone necessarily but it will certainly be extremely awkward. I'm worried for Faye and for what might happen. However as I've found to be the case, if a person is in dire straits, oftentimes they have more positive influence over the situation than they might assume.
And Faye does-she has access to a therapist who knows her situation well, friends who care about her, lack of alcoholic enablers (at the moment) who could make matters worse for her.
She has so much at her disposal to try and steer this around, and I really hope she does.

[thedevilissix]

Well, things just got real. As a boss, I think Dora did the right thing. It also illustrates that being boss is difficult to combine with being friends. And to anyone thinking that Dora should have cut Faye slack because she's a friend, I'd point out that the obligations of friendship cut both ways. It is not honouring friendship to turn up to work drunk at a business owned by your friend.

Yup. Very much this. Honouring a friendship and a work relationship cuts both ways.

[gopher]

Got to feel sorry for Dora. Her bext friend is an alcoholic and her girlfriend is a hardcore pothead.

[mikmaxs]

Dora did not make a mistake (necessarily) by firing Faye. Her mistake was not doing anything before firing Faye. It is not Dora's responsibility to take care of Faye, but if they really are friends then she should have at least tried something during Faye's spiral towards oblivion before it got to this point.

Dora and Faye spend a huge amount of time together (You know, the entire day, most days of the week,) Dora has no excuse for being unaware what Faye was going through. And yet, in today's comic, all Dora shows is anger.


Faye is certainly not in the right here, but I can empathize with her position. After seeing her dad commit suicide, she has major issues with abandonment. She's always struggled with alcoholism, to one extent or another using it as a painkiller when she was feeling emotional. Angus was the first solid relationship that she felt good about and had no regrets with, and he just decided to leave her because something else was more important to him. (I'll not get into whether Angus was justified here. Different argument.) Faye is crushed, and this rips open old wounds that she hasn't had to deal with in a long time. She dropped her snarky, sarcastic defenses entirely for one person, and he is now gone. Faye is in a very bad place, and one of her two remaining best friends, Marten is: One, currently dealing with his own personal life in a happy way, which Faye doesn't want to screw up by bringing in her problems. Two, someone related to her past trauma of being abandoned. (All that boyfriend drama, remember?) Both of these make him a poor candidate for helping her.

Now let's talk about Dora. Other than business troubles (Which don't seem that major seeing as the same troubles have been around since the dawn of the comic,) she doesn't really have any major conflicts going on right now, and no new relationships to be screwed up. She's Faye's oldest friend, they spend all day together, and they've both been there for each other many times in the past.

It is impossible that Dora did not know how terribly wrong things were for Faye, at least to the degree that she should have known Faye needed an intervention or a shoulder to cry into without booze being involved. When Faye says she doesn't want to spend a waking moment sober, Dora does nothing. When Faye comes in reeking of booze, suddenly chipper, and hangover free, Dora doesn't realize something is obviously wrong. She has to walk in on Faye in the act to finally react in any major way, and all we get is anger.

Based on this, Dora is either blind and stupid, or has absolutely no sympathy for her friend's suffering.

If we had seen Dora try to deal with the issue and Faye lie and say things are fine and she'd slow down the drinking, or if Dira had called Marten and Hannelore and maybe a few other people with her concerns I'd be more okay with today's strip. If Dora had only suspended Faye indefinitely, I'd be okay with today's strip. If Dora had shown any emotion on her face besides anger (Hurt, sympathy, disappointment, indecision,) for even one panel, I'd be okay with today's strip.

As it stands, though, I'd never guess that Dora was friends with Faye based off of this story arc.


I'm not saying that Dora should be enabling Faye, or letting this slide, I'm only saying that she's acting like she doesn't care about Faye as anything more than an acquaintance in spite of their years of friendship, and Faye's actions, while not justified, are at least understandable once you consider how fragile and injured she is.

Dora was justified as a boss in firing Faye, but a horrible friend in not doing anything else.

[GarandMarine]

Whelp. Called it.

[tragic_pizza]

It is not honouring friendship to turn up to work drunk at a business owned by your friend.

Dora did not make a mistake (necessarily) by firing Faye. Her mistake was not doing anything before firing Faye. It is not Dora's responsibility to take care of Faye, but if they really are friends then she should have at least tried something during Faye's spiral towards oblivion before it got to this point.

I reiterate the fact that, for years, all of Faye's friends have helped. And helped. And helped.

The sum total of all of this help has been... ?

[mikmaxs]

It is not honouring friendship to turn up to work drunk at a business owned by your friend.

Dora did not make a mistake (necessarily) by firing Faye. Her mistake was not doing anything before firing Faye. It is not Dora's responsibility to take care of Faye, but if they really are friends then she should have at least tried something during Faye's spiral towards oblivion before it got to this point.

I reiterate the fact that, for years, all of Faye's friends have helped. And helped. And helped.

The sum total of all of this help has been... ?

Faye generally improving, becoming more friendly, happier, capable... Up until this relapse, Faye's outlook has generally been improving. And Faye has helped others when she could. The Vespavenger comes to mind, standing up for Marten when his ex came around, many other things which I don't have the time or memory to recount. It has not been an entirely one-way relationship.

Also: Ditching your friends because they're too needy when they most desperately need your help is a shitty thing to do.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Dora was justified as a boss in firing Faye, but a horrible friend in not doing anything else.

No she wasn't. There's no friendly way to do that. You really don't understand until you have to drop your best friend in the world like a bad habit because they are self destructive drinkers who will happily take everyone else down with them. You look back on all the damage you've suffered--real and emotional--doing "something else" to honor the friendship and realize it was all pointless.

What Faye did, no matter the reason, really is friendship ending level stuff. Dora would only be wrong here if she dragged it out. "Go home. You're fired." is the second kindest thing she could have done.

The kindest being: "You're fired. Go home."

[madamlark]

It's been....3 days since the breakup?  I don't see that Dora had a LOT of time to intervene, and since Faye was trying to play off the alcohol problem, I feel she should be cut some slack.  She's also dealing with the hurt of cutting her brother, her blood relative, out of her life.  I think she should be forgiven a little lack of observation.

She's hurting too.  She's loosing her brother and now must feel more than a little betrayed that her best friend would do something like this on the job after being warned, more than once that drinking and being drunk on the job is one of her major lines.

She may have every intention of doing the friend Dora part later on.  Right now boss Dora has every right to be pissed.  At least that's my opinion.

[mikmaxs]

ReindeerFlotilla, to be clear, I meant before the firing. I don't really know how I could have been *more* clear on this point, but I meant she was a horrible friend for doing nothing to comfort her friend after her life was crushed, until it got to the point where Faye was drunk at work on purpose.

Plus, Dora didn't even look upset or sad, just angry. That's the kicker for me.

Madamlark: I'm not asking for a lot, just something (Anything!) to try and comfort, assist, or be a friend to Faye. Three days is enough time to make a phonecall or sit Faye down and have a conversation. She may be hurting, but she hasn't shown it. And at this point, I'm not going to count it if she realizes later and feels like crap about it: She's done that every time she makes a mistake.

'Lack of observation' is also not an excuse when your best friend who you work with 8 hours a day says explicitly that they want to drink themselves into oblivion.

[madamlark]

You keep coming back to that specific part, but part of my disagreement with your take is that I don't read Faye saying that the same way.  To me she comes across joking, and she jokes about alcohol all of the time!  Does she have a bit of truth to it, yeah, but it doesn't come across as completely obvious, to me.  And let's face it, Faye has smelled like a brewery before.  The part where she doesn't have a hangover...well I don't drink enough to know if that's a big tell, lots of my friends can drink lots and not have hangovers so long as they get enough water and pain killers.  When Dora has been very very clear about her feelings on drinking at work, I don't blame the angry face.  I'm sure she is feeling conflicted, but I completely get how anger would win out in her expression.  You're entitled to your way of seeing it, but I can't see this situation in the same light as you do.

[explicit]

Here's something, it's not up to Dora to get help for Faye, it's up to Faye to ask for it.

[mikmaxs]

I doubt Faye would blink at one joke or one missing hangover, but there's just SO MUCH evidence that you have to ignore to assume everything is okay.
Faye doesn't just make an offhand remark, she first asks permission to get wasted at work, insists that it's because she wants to tie one one, and then DORA first mentions that Faye wants to be drunk all the time. (Faye confirms this with more sarcasm.) Then Faye 'jokes' that she wants it so she won't have to feel anything.

The next day, after being obviously depressed, she comes in reeking of booze and yet happy and not hungover. She then says it's not luck or a happenstance, but that she took 'Medicine' for it.

That's a of jokes about alcohol in a 24 hour period, for a known alcoholic, who's clearly depressed and just suffered some major emotional trauma.

It's too much to look over for me. Again, they are best friends. They should know each other well enough to see when something is this plainly wrong.


Explicit: If someone is drowning at the bottom of a lake do they have to yell for help before someone will save them? If the lifeguard comes and is fought away that's one thing, but sometimes it's not si easy to ask for help.

[Masterpiece]

She may be hurting, but she hasn't shown it.

And how is Dora supposed to know that? You can't help people if they obviously don't want to be helped (and don't show others they need the help!!).

That is, besides showing them that their actions have serious repercussions. And that's what Dora did.

[BenRG]

I can more-or-less see how things are going to go and it isn't going to be nice. Faye is, despite her innumerable issues, a very strong-willed person with a strong handle on what she wants and the will to pursue it (alcoholics tend to be).

After an initial period of horrified shock, Faye is going to go on an immediate counter-offensive based on the fact she considers herself the wronged party. She's going to tell lies to Marten to make Dora seem the unreasonable one. Martin will confront Dora ('confront' in Marten terms; in other words, talk to her from a neutral perspective) and get the other side of the story. I'd say that will be 'tomorrow' in comic terms. Marten is going to think about it (Marten, remember?) and decide that Faye has a problem. He's going to clear all the alcohol out of the house, over Pintsize's objections.

Faye will have an argument with Marten over this which will devolve into a painful bit of bargaining with Faye digging deeper and deeper in an attempt to get her own way, using guilt and even attempting seduction (which is more embarrassing than anything else - she isn't good at it). I would like to see a 'now I know what it's like to kiss my brother' moment here. Eventually, Faye will seem to compromise and agree with Marten's new house rule. She'll just get drunk at bars... and smuggle booze in whilst Marten is out. Marten will find out when he catches Pintsize stealing from her stash.

In the meantime, Faye would be busily blowing up every bridge she has ever had and reacting as if it is the other party's fault.

Finally, the next shoe drops. The lease has come up for payment and Faye has drunk herself into penury. Marten has enough money to cover both sides for one month but, if Faye can't get a job, he's going to have to ask her to move out so that he can find someone who can pay. The lease's terms explicitly give him this right (indeed demands that he do so). Faye has been holding out for weeks, sure that Dora would eventually 'come crawling back to her'. In desperation, she does the crawling; Dora tells Faye straight-up that she needs to dry out before she'd think of re-hiring her; there is another argument that devolves into Faye being insultingly defensive (blaming Dora for the crisis and outright saying that she is trying to get Faye thrown out of the apartment as revenge for the failure of her relationship with Marten). This is the most recent of the bridges Faye does her level best to destroy.

In the meantime, Claire has been stewing over how embarrassing her mother is whenever Marten comes around. She talks to her and her mother suggests that she find her own space. She isn't being thrown out but at 24-25 Mrs A really thinks that her daughter is ready to spread her wings and fly off to a nest of her own. She talks to Marten about it and, after some number-crunching over Claire's tuition fund and the allowance Smif is paying her for her work at the library, they realise that Claire can more than cover the other half of Marten's lease. If Faye turns herself around, she knows of a certain someone (Momo, Marigold having moved in with Dale) who is looking for a new roomie.

So we reach the 'bottles on the bench' moment. Marten has given Faye an ultimatum and she is well aware that Claire has been all-but measuring up the apartment's curtains. She's had a horrible argument with Marten and Claire about it and it's pretty clear that she lost. She's lost her job, in her eyes, her friends have 'abandoned' her and she's about to lose her home.

She has nothing and no-one left. She doesn't even have hope. It's at that point that a passer-by makes a comment about a 'disgusting drunk'. Faye looks at her reflection and sees one looking back at her. Like thousands before her, at this darkest, lowest moment, she turns her face to the metaphorical wall, puts the gun to her head and, as Lord Havelock Vetinari put it...

Her angel appears.

Of all the things in this world he ever expected to be, Marten Reed never expected to be a guardian angel.

That is the thought process that was going through my mind when I wrote my now-infamous 'suicide post'; I compressed it into a week but it is really how I see this arc going.

FWIW, I can see the next strip after the suicide attempt being Marten calling Tai and saying he might not be in that day as Faye was sick. In the background, we can see a crying Faye being talked to by the Doc with a nurse standing by with a tray full of a real pharacopea of meds. I expect Faye to go into residential care for a while (the group therapy scene) and, when she is released, to be a very different person, both negatively (more quiet and reserved) and positive (more determined to seize life in both hands and live it rather than hide away in a comfortable little self-exile). I can see a lovely strip in my head of a very nervous Faye leaving the clinic and being engulfed in her friends' arms.

[Lubricus]

Reading these last few strips, I get the feeling that Faye's father's reason for killing himself was deeply connected to alcoholism. I think about the fact that he snuck bourbon into his milkshakes without telling his wife, who did not allow to drink, and that his sudden suicide came as a complete shock to his daughters. Maybe he was in deep alcoholic trouble, but was able to hide it very well, and ended his life when he couldn't take it anymore. That would fit quite well with how Faye is acting presently - and the predilection for substance abuse is often hereditary. Does this look right to you guys?

[Detachable Felix]

I gave up on the WCDT a while ago but I just want to say that this particular development makes me very sad and in need of hugs.

[MrNumbers]

*Snip*!

That's... that's brilliant. And it makes so much sense, too. All the pieces fit together so neatly...

[plusorminus]

I sort of hope that if Sven is brought into this, he will harken back to that time he made a good point. That strip also establishes that Faye is aware her drinking is an issue and has made a deliberate choice to not tell Dr. Corinne because her psychiatrist might actually make her do something about it.

Yet, it's Dora who fucked up here. Mmm hmm. Okay.

ETA: Okay, I read ahead and stand corrected. She did talk to Dr. Corrinne who asked her to stop drinking and try exercise and Omega 3s. I'd like to know what happened to that program and if Faye does revisit this with Dr. C. if she will now suggest the antidepressants.

[bhtooefr]

Come to think of it, a violent drunk around a broadsword and a Battle Spatula is a "recipe for unpleasantness", the kind of unpleasantness that can run to five figures in no time.

Five figures? More like seven or eight. If CoD is a sole proprietorship, rather than an LLC or similar, Dora will be paying for that the rest of her life, and only get enough money to barely survive in extreme poverty (unless she starts working for someone under the table).

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

This is the way it had to be. When someone messes up normally, a proportionate response is sound. When someone messes up because they were chasing a substance or a state of mind, you can't half-ass your response. It just doesn't work. This firing will probably stick, too. I don't see Dora being too trusting of Faye afterward, even should she clean up. This moment will remain in the back of her mind. The pain of having to do this to a friend, too. I think Dora's never going to hire a friend again.

Reading these last few strips, I get the feeling that Faye's father's reason for killing himself was deeply connected to alcoholism. I think about the fact that he snuck bourbon into his milkshakes without telling his wife, who did not allow to drink, and that his sudden suicide came as a complete shock to his daughters. Maybe he was in deep alcoholic trouble, but was able to hide it very well, and ended his life when he couldn't take it anymore. That would fit quite well with how Faye is acting presently - and the predilection for substance abuse is often hereditary. Does this look right to you guys?

Makes a lot of sense to me.

[pwhodges]

Without pointing at any previous posts I'd like to make a couple of points.

1 - References to things earlier in the comic, like the weapons, are irrelevant - as the comic changes through the years, and in any case has always alternated between the crazy gags and the serious.  Using a gag as an argument in the serious part just doesn't work out.

2 - Saying this is the first time for anything is a bit too literal-minded.  Faye's had problems throughout the comic and has worked on them and had backslidings as well.  This doesn't come entirely out of the blue.

3 - Dora's response is in character - the instant over-the-top reaction that she showed Marten on several occasions.  If it's really seen to be OTT, the opportunity to retract when (if) circumstances justify that is always available.

4 - It's been mentioned by someone, but not picked up, that Faye could now see herself free to follow Angus, if he is willing to take her back.  As the immediate cause of her resumption of drinking is the separation, that would give her the opportunity to get back in control without the same level of temptation.  Whether such a decision would lead to her being on the bus permanently would be up to Jeph, of course; but it would give more space for Marten's relationship with Claire to develop, and help stem the perpetual increase in the number of characters that slows the story down more and more.

5 -

Global Moderator Comment

The discussion, though busy, has not quite got over-heated. Thank you all for that. But please remember that there will always be disagreement, and control the urge to try to answer every point and win every argument. Once you've said your thing, it's there and available for anyone to read and consider; there's no need to reiterate it unless presenting a new argument or distinctly different angle on it.

[tragic_pizza]

You know... other webcomic artists have killed off major characters.

It could happen.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I have a problem. It keeps me from getting laid, which is a different issue entirely, but still the problem itself is totally germane.

See, I'm really really bad at subtext when it is directed at me. Like, if you get all emo and passive-aggressively cry for help in Bob's direction, I'll probably notice, but if you do it in mine it's going to zip right by.

This is my problem. I don't hold it against someone that I didn't get their message. On the other hand, it's not my fault either. Because when they decided to send a subtext, instead of being upfront, they made a choice that the potential for me not to get the message was worth some other thing. Maybe not consciously, but it's just not my damned job to keep up with the motives of every other person on Earth so I can decode the secret messages.

You cannot define caring as infinite capacity for sacrifice. Because you can always sit in the armchair and determine that a person SHOULD HAVE seen the clues at point X. But Then that guy over there can point out how it should have been obvious before point X.

The fact is that Dora didn't know how bad things were because FAYE has actively dodged discussing it with anyone, preferring to hide in a bottle. Given the fact that Faye has a reputation (well earned) for violence and being prickly, it is not--in fact--unreasonable for her friends to wait for her to open up. For all Faye's talk of being an experienced person, Angus represents the very first time Faye's friends Marten and Dora have seen her go through a breakup. They are unaware of the extent of Faye's internal hurt because Faye is keeping it from them, and it is not actually their job to read the subtext.

Caring often has the secondary effect of catching the subtexts when you otherwise would not, but that's a bonus. It's not a feature and it's not an obligation. No one can live up to that. So, no. Dora was not obligated to notice what Faye wasn't telling her for the handful of days that have passed since Faye broke up with Angus.