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Faypocalypse Sven

9 (6.9%)

Claireten Snuggles

12 (9.2%)

Clintonhand Naughtyness

3 (2.3%)

Dora fires Faye - Drama and drunkenness ensues

50 (38.2%)

Clairemom and Martenmom accidentally meet

4 (3.1%)

Emily gets weirder (is that even possible?)

4 (3.1%)

Sven rescues Faye - Dora gets wrong end of stick

12 (9.2%)

The surprise return on Angus - Blood and mayhem ensue

5 (3.8%)

Purple Monkey Dishwasher

7 (5.3%)

Whatever it is, it'll be completely unexpected

22 (16.8%)

ALIENS!

3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[BenRG]

Not only that, but it's generally considered best practice for employers to not say anything about an employee's performance, only that they did work there. Otherwise, they're opened up to a lawsuit.

"I'm afraid that we do not give our detailed references for our former employees. However, if we did, his would rhyme with 'Mazy Loron'."
-- Catbert, the Evil Director of Human Resources
-- Dilbert

[Is it cold in here?]

There's a formulation of the Categorical Imperative which dictates that you must never treat humans as means to an end but always as ends in themselves.

Taken at face value, that would make Dora's action unethical, along with virtually every other management action in the world.

[Undrneath]

People are assuming that Faye got vacation days / sick days / personal days. As a small business, and a traditionally unstable one being the food service industry, Dora probably can't afford to pay for days off. I work for a corporate franchise and my vacation pay was eliminated over five years ago. Now if I want time off I have to save up for it or I won't be able to afford it.

[Markus Ramikin]

RF: I don't really wanna dig more into the unseemly things you're doing to words like "axiom" and "truth", so let's get back to the actual situation we were discussing, and see if we disagree about anything of substance.

You say that second-guessing, by which you mean introspection by which you mean Dora taking time to check, isn't a bad thing. Sure. I agree. Decisionmaking happens in conditions of uncertainty, with limited time, energy, patience, and intelligence. If you think about it later, maybe you'll see a way you could have done better. That can be useful.

You say that guilt can motivate you to look for better answers. Me, I earlier said,

"feel bad yes, feel guilty no. Her friend is in trouble and that's a bad thing, and yes, if Dora cares about her then she will feel accordingly.

That feeling of "this is a shitty situation and I wish I didn't have to fire Faye" is the relevant motivator, and I have no issue with that causing her to give more thought to the situation. But when I say guilt, I mean this:

But any feelings of "I shouldn't have done that" or "I'm a bad person because I did that", she doesn't deserve, she should know that she doesn't, and stand by her decision against anyone, including the little voices in her head.

(Assuming that in hindsight the reasons for firing Faye look sound to her, and according to her best judgement that decision remains the correct one.)
Whether or not we'd agree to define the word guilt this way, are we in disagreement about my actual meaning here?

Guilt is not a bad thing, in itself. I guess. It would be weird if most of humanity was wired for a pathological response.

We are. For more than one. The human brain is a horrible kludge. I'm sorry.

[Devlosirrus]

Not only that, but it's generally considered best practice for employers to not say anything about an employee's performance, only that they did work there. Otherwise, they're opened up to a lawsuit.

Not technically true.  Employers are free to say whatever they'd like to someone calling for a reference, they just need to have documents to back it up.  I've given several people extremely shitty references, with very specific examples of their shitty behavior.  However, before I did so, I made sure that I had signed disciplinary documents to prove it.  If you say something bad about someone and can't prove it, then you could be sued.

Weird thing to post about, I know.  This thread just has me feeling that managerial feel.

[Somnus Eternus]

Not only that, but it's generally considered best practice for employers to not say anything about an employee's performance, only that they did work there. Otherwise, they're opened up to a lawsuit.

Not technically true.  Employers are free to say whatever they'd like to someone calling for a reference, they just need to have documents to back it up.  I've given several people extremely shitty references, with very specific examples of their shitty behavior.  However, before I did so, I made sure that I had signed disciplinary documents to prove it.  If you say something bad about someone and can't prove it, then you could be sued.

Weird thing to post about, I know.  This thread just has me feeling that managerial feel.

For the most part, when I'd terminate I'd give vague, lukewarm-positive responses to any questions other employers asked me because I didn't see the point in screwing them out of another job.  I'd just never tell them whether we terminated or they did. 

Except when they'd get fired for something so beyond the pale, and then have the audacity to file for wrongful termination with the state (which happened twice, with two different employees).  Then I'd get out the employee file and had fun.

[Devlosirrus]

For the most part, when I'd terminate I'd give vague, lukewarm-positive responses to any questions other employers asked me because I didn't see the point in screwing them out of another job.  I'd just never tell them whether we terminated or they did. 

Except when they'd get fired for something so beyond the pale, and then have the audacity to file for wrongful termination with the state (which happened twice, with two different employees).  Then I'd get out the employee file and had fun.

Oh yeah, sure.  If it was a situation wherein they just didn't work out, then I'd certainly give a positive reference.  I've had to fire several employees who worked out perfectly at a different business down the street.  Some people just aren't suited for certain jobs, it's nothing to get mad about.  However, I have had some employees who were either constantly coming in hung over or otherwise impaired, had a piss-poor attitude and work ethic, or were stealing controlled substances, and I'm not nearly as forgiving with those kinds of infractions.  This was at an emergency vet clinic, bee tea dubs, so we took that kind of shit very seriously.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

RF: I don't really wanna dig more into the unseemly things you're doing to words like "axiom" and "truth", so let's get back to the actual situation we were discussing, and see if we disagree about anything of substance.

Don't go casting aspersions on the way I use words. Either point out what is wrong, in your opinion, or keep it civil. Calling my use "unseemly" isn't civil. If you feel I've impugned upon you honor or something, come out with it or call a mod.

(Assuming that in hindsight the reasons for firing Faye look sound to her, and according to her best judgement that decision remains the correct one.)
Whether or not we'd agree to define the word guilt this way, are we in disagreement about my actual meaning here?

At this point you appear to be waliking back you original declaration that Dora should declare "I'm not going to feel bad about this." In that case, no. But you seemed to want dig into the concepts, not argue the point. If you want to declare one of us is the winner, I'm not playing that game.

Guilt is not a bad thing, in itself. I guess. It would be weird if most of humanity was wired for a pathological response.

We are. For more than one. The human brain is a horrible kludge. I'm sorry.

Pathological: involving, caused by, or of the nature of a physical or mental disease.
Disease: a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

It would be weird if humanity were wired for mental disease. Kludged as it is, Kludged is the way it supposed to function.

[A Duck]

As BenRG said in the previous page, I think a timeskip might be in order really soon.

Faye's situation will not be resolved anytime soon, in comic time. A timeskip allows her to work out her issues without the  "Faye's alcohol problems" arc dragging for YEARS in real time. It would be really weird if Jeph resolved the whole thing in a few days, comic time, even if that took months or years real time.

And that also has the bonus of allowing Marten and Claire to live a happy relationship for some time, just as Dora has the same opportunity, without having any drama.

I can see the whole group falling apart due to Faye's problems, for a while at least.

With Alice Grove slowly taking off... I wonder how far we are from QC's end o_O

[drmike]

Except when they'd get fired for something so beyond the pale, and then have the audacity to file for wrongful termination with the state (which happened twice, with two different employees).  Then I'd get out the employee file and had fun.

Places I have worked, even if we had the documentation to prove it, we weren't allowed to give reason or explanation.  You may have been able to back it up but the former employee could still file a lawsuit and that would mean money being spent fighting it.

Just to mention, there appears to be an issue with the website.

Starting on the home page:  http://questionablecontent.net/

Click on the previous link you get Comic 2878.  It doesn't go back to 2879.

From 2879, click on the next link and you just get a reload.

if this has been reported previously, please excuse me but I don;t see a mention of it.

thanks
-drmike

[Echoweaver]

The question of a timeskip is an interesting one.

I don't think that a timeskip is required for Faye to combat alcoholism in the story. It would be required if we wanted pull the curtain on her fight against addiction. But days advance for people fighting alcoholism. They have jobs and friends too. And even senses of humor.

It really depends on the story Jeph wants to write. Of course.

[MooskiNet]

Except when they'd get fired for something so beyond the pale, and then have the audacity to file for wrongful termination with the state (which happened twice, with two different employees).  Then I'd get out the employee file and had fun.

Places I have worked, even if we had the documentation to prove it, we weren't allowed to give reason or explanation.  You may have been able to back it up but the former employee could still file a lawsuit and that would mean money being spent fighting it.

Just to mention, there appears to be an issue with the website.

Starting on the home page:  http://questionablecontent.net/

Click on the previous link you get Comic 2878.  It doesn't go back to 2879.

From 2879, click on the next link and you just get a reload.

if this has been reported previously, please excuse me but I don;t see a mention of it.

thanks
-drmike

I think today's panel doesn't count as an update in terms of comic numbers.  My guess is when tomorrow's comic goes up, the next comic will go straight from 2879 to that one.

Same thing happened with the Marten/Claire christmas panel.

[Natswash]

A nice visit from the Walky-verse

I really don't want a timeskip. I'm just philosophically opposed, I could see the therapist coming back. We haven't seen her for a while and this is the kind of issue their supposed to help with

[pwhodges]

Even with my previous knowledge, I am aghast at what this discussion is revealing of employment law and practice in the US.

[TheEvilDog]

A nice visit from the Walky-verse

I really don't want a timeskip. I'm just philosophically opposed, I could see the therapist coming back. We haven't seen her for a while and this is the kind of issue their supposed to help with

A time skip might be somewhat unavoidable for this type of storyline, to have Faye reach the bottom and stay there for a time and then have to claw back through rehab and therapy might take a little too long, especially when there are other characters to consider.

[Svennerson]

I must disagree there, sorry - I don't think messing up chances with future employers and cutting off her money so that she can't make rent is 'helping' in any way. Why would you want her to hit rock bottom instead of assuming getting fired is hitting rock bottom while still making sure she can pay her therapist?

It was pointed out earlier in this thread by people who have experience with alcoholic family/friends that you need to ABSOLUTELY cut them off from ANY method of alcohol.  If she has money to pay her therapist, she would spend it on booze instead.  If she only has enough money for rent, she would pay for booze instead.  Even without money, she would have a singleminded focus on finding ways to mooch alcohol off of friends.  Giving her money right now for any purpose is a terrible.  Frikkin.  Idea.

Alternative possibility: Dora talks it over with Tai, Tai talks it over with management (who she likely has blackmail of because she's Tai like that), Marten gets a temporary raise so that he can shoulder the rent and be in charge of money for the home, giving him the tools to cut Faye off (to a degree).  Boss Dora is keeping her workplace safe, Friend Dora isn't abandoning Faye, Faye is forced to sober up and confront her problems, the new assertiveness Marten's beginning to develop can be tested and utilized, and Tai continues to be a boss.

[jheartney]

WRT timeskipping, I'll just note that time compression is a venerable and legitimate tool of narrative storytelling. Faye can go off to rehab for a month or two (real time) and come back well on the way to recovery. I think Jeph has already done a fair bit of compressing in having her drop this far since the Angus breakup in just a couple of days QC time. We'll see how long it takes to get her into treatment from the current crisis. I'm hoping we don't need too many horrific scenes of Faye destroying her relationships with all friends and family as happens with actual alcoholics.

[jheartney]

Alternative possibility: Dora talks it over with Tai, Tai talks it over with management (who she likely has blackmail of because she's Tai like that), Marten gets a temporary raise so that he can shoulder the rent and be in charge of money for the home, giving him the tools to cut Faye off (to a degree).  Boss Dora is keeping her workplace safe, Friend Dora isn't abandoning Faye, Faye is forced to sober up and confront her problems, the new assertiveness Marten's beginning to develop can be tested and utilized, and Tai continues to be a boss.

Or Claire takes this opportunity to fly the nest, and moves in while Faye crashes on the couch. Or Pintsize gets a job (comedy gold possibilities there).

 i do hope Dora phones Marten and gives him a heads-up. Best for everybody, including Faye.

[davedig]

Anyone have that Christmas picture? I miss it.

[MooskiNet]

Anyone have that Christmas picture? I miss it.

I have it, not sure if it's kosher to post it.  Mods?

[cesium133]

Anyone have that Christmas picture? I miss it.

I have it, not sure if it's kosher to post it.  Mods?

Kosher? No, that's the Hanukkah picture.

[MooskiNet]

Anyone have that Christmas picture? I miss it.

I have it, not sure if it's kosher to post it.  Mods?

Kosher? No, that's the Hanukkah picture.

(click to show/hide)

[TieDyeKat]

In my state, the only thing a former employer can be asked is "would you rehire this person?" -- any answer past that can end in a lawsuit.

For unemployment, a termination by the company means automatic unemployment, unless the company fights against paying it on the grounds that the employee was WRONGFULLY terminated.  Unless the former employee can prove the reasons were unjust, unemployment is delayed six weeks.

If you walk off the job or voluntarily resign, unemployment benefits are rare if non-existent.

Health care, however, has changed.  An individual terminated from their position has several possibilities of receiving health care coverage.  They can choose to continue their coverage under COBRA (see here: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/cobraemployee.pdf) or apply to the Health Care Marketplace.  If they have not been able to secure another position where health care is offered, they may be placed into state Medicaid or they may be given state-sponsored insurance or vouchers (thanks, Obama!).  Mental health care coverage is included.  For any interim period between termination and new coverage, the state will cover up to 90 days worth of medical bills.

However, if one chooses not to engage or enroll in a health benefits package, they can receive a tax penalty.

[TheEvilDog]

I don't know if someone has said it already, but from what I keep hearing about how employment in the US, I'm so glad I live in Europe. It's not perfect but wow.

[jwhouk]

I'm not too keen on working in America, either, so there's that.

10 pages by Wednesday. If this wouldn't have been filler, I can only imagine how many posts I'd have to sift through...

[Neko_Ali]

We honestly don't know how far Faye has slid into alcoholism, if she is an alcoholic. She is certainly showing a lot of warning signs of being. Not every person needs to hit rock bottom, living on the streets, begging or worse for their next fifth of rotgut before they realize how bad it is. Having something Very Bad like this happening as a direct result of her drinking problem may be enough to shock Faye into realizing where she is headed. Or maybe not. Tellingly, when she was caught, she didn't offer up some lame excuse or brush it off. By her expression and body language she knew she screwed up big time. We haven't seen the aftermath of 'Go home, you're fired' yet, but she didn't immediately blow up at Dora. Being sympathetic and understanding of her, and letting her do what she wants has only let Faye stuff herself into the bottle. Having it slammed in her face like this might be enough to wake her up. Or Marten could come home from date night to find Faye passed out and surrounded by empties. It could really go either way right now.

[sluthy]

Faye knows. She knows what she's doing and that it's wrong, but #2872 basically implies she just doesn't care anymore. Whether or not this is also alcoholism, it's definitely depression first and foremost. Maybe that word 'fired' was a sobering slap, maybe not.

Is it confirmed that Angus has already left? Pintsize said "it's not too late", so maybe he hasn't moved out yet?  I strongly suspect any emotional intervention will have to involve him, just so both of them can have closure.

[hedgie]

Having been to the "just don't care" stage many times before, it can be even worse than having suicidal impulses.  That's often what happens when you start to "get better", as if the mind just shuts-down to prevent direct self-harm, but by doing so, often means doing things like Faye is doing.

[Method of Madness]

Anyone have that Christmas picture? I miss it.

I have it, not sure if it's kosher to post it.  Mods?

I don't see why not.

[MooskiNet]

Cool.  Here 'tis.

(click to show/hide)

[Smallest]

Re: timeskip, something like what (if I remember correctly) happened with Sven's storyline could happen. Faye could continue to exist, but for however long not be part of the story. During this time, Dora and Sven's thing, Marten and Claire, Hannelore in general, etc could be explored. We've had characters have pretty long breaks before without it being conspicuous. Faye's plot not being quickly resolvable doesn't mean everyone has to get a skip.

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

With Alice Grove slowly taking off... I wonder how far we are from QC's end o_O

Does anyone besides Jeph actually know how well Alice Grove is doing? It's early days, and not everyone who is a QC fan will be an AG fan, so it will have to build its own fanbase.

[jwhouk]

All hands, brace for impact...

[Method of Madness]

The Great Schism indeed

[jwhouk]

Image is not showing up at the moment on the website... Jeph's comment is not making me optimistic.

Comic is up...

Oh ####.

[sluthy]

Welp, that didn't go well. Somehow I doubt Dora's even worried about giving Marten any heads-up anymore, she's done.

Although she should call Marten anyway for his sake: "Hey, you might want to start saving some pennies - from now on, the rent is all you. And wear some flame-retardant when you go home tonight..."

[Em]

Faye noooooo.
Dora noooooo.
Noooooooooo.
NOOOOOOOO.

[Method of Madness]

Oh nooooo, and also I missed my 12,345th post.

[TheEvilDog]

Oh crap.

(The comic, not MoM missing his 12345th post)

[Neko_Ali]

Whelp. Looks like Faye when for Option B. Denial and lashing out. Crash and burn time.

[sluthy]

Are there customers in the store? Are Penny or Hanners on shift? Because that exchange was out in the shop and I can't imagine either of them keeping their voices down.

[TheEvilDog]

I'm getting the feeling that this is Dora and Faye opening up in the morning.

[Zebediah]

So, how many more ways can Faye fuck up this week?

 

[mustang6172]

I thought Dora encouraged insubordination.

[hedgie]

Wow.  That hit hard.

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Holy hell. Judging by that "screw you", we're probably going on a full-on self destructive rampage here. Will there be an apartment left to return to when Marten gets back from Movie Night?

So, how many more ways can Faye fuck up this week?

 

How many things does Faye have, and how many friends does she still have? That many ways.

[DSL]

I thought Dora encouraged insubordination.

Good point, that. Go back over the entirety of the strip and Dora definitely has set the tone in the shop that might have allowed Faye to think this is OK. Though she's gone "hell-boss" -- at least in Faye's opinion -- before, Dora's strategic mistake was to let things ride, even contribute to the situation, before allowing things to build to the point where she's looking for an excuse, any excuse, to push the button. I've been on both ends of this (reflecting no credit on myself, believe me) and it's not fun to watch it happen, either from the outside or in.

[Smallest]

I thought Dora encouraged insubordination.

Good point, that. Go back over the entirety of the strip and Dora definitely has set the tone in the shop that might have allowed Faye to think this is OK. Though she's gone "hell-boss" -- at least in Faye's opinion -- before, Dora's strategic mistake was to let things ride, even contribute to the situation, before allowing things to build to the point where she's looking for an excuse, any excuse, to push the button. I've been on both ends of this (reflecting no credit on myself, believe me) and it's not fun to watch it happen, either from the outside or in.

There's the silly insubordination of tricking new workers into cleaning the awful bathroom after Dora told you to, and there's ignoring your boss having told you not to drink at work.

[Natswash]

I thought Dora encouraged insubordination.

Good point, that. Go back over the entirety of the strip and Dora definitely has set the tone in the shop that might have allowed Faye to think this is OK. Though she's gone "hell-boss" -- at least in Faye's opinion -- before, Dora's strategic mistake was to let things ride, even contribute to the situation, before allowing things to build to the point where she's looking for an excuse, any excuse, to push the button. I've been on both ends of this (reflecting no credit on myself, believe me) and it's not fun to watch it happen, either from the outside or in.

I think that Dora does encourage witty banter and discussion about assignments, insubordination not so much

But the real worry, does saying "Screw this place, I'm out!" count as quitting? Or is Dora firing first, first legally?

[Is it cold in here?]

Oh ####.

I could not have put it better.

This is worst-case stuff, Faye pulling lines from the self-destruction playbook.

This may be about the heaviest drama since The Talk.