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Poll

Well, Valentine's Day is Past! What now?

The Domesticity of Marten, Faye, Claire and Pintsize
- 8 (9.6%)
The Talk, Phase 2
- 10 (12%)
Faye meets Keeper Hannelore
- 6 (7.2%)
Sam: "Come on! I need your help!"
- 1 (1.2%)
Dora Does Guilt-Trip
- 24 (28.9%)
Tai has no boudaries about employees' personal lives
- 13 (15.7%)
Clinton and Emily's "date" (because that's still happening, AFAIK)
- 21 (25.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Voting closed: 18 Feb 2015, 08:09


Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 15   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)  (Read 90894 times)

cesariojpn

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #250 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:26 »

...so why can't we just respect Claire and Marten (and through them, all other real-life trans/cis couples) and allow them their privacy?

So what your saying is, Jeph has every right to "discuss" a topic/explore an issue via an open forum like a webcomic, and his fans don't have the same "speaking right" to discuss or explore similar issues? 

Thats.....not right.
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explicit

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #251 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:32 »

See, when people say the forums are well behaved it makes me want to act like a total dick. You did this to me.

Okay, let's see what we have to work with... um... okay, hey guys! Sometimes I think your opinions and my own don't match, but that's okay! ... Wait... that doesn't sound right... dammit...

Warning - After writing your stupid... whatever joke, someone else posted something that you want to respond to. Maybe you should have just do that instead adding the above.

Shut up red color words, you're not the boss of me.

Anyways:

...so why can't we just respect Claire and Marten (and through them, all other real-life trans/cis couples) and allow them their privacy?

So what your saying is, Jeph has every right to "discuss" a topic/explore an issue via an open forum like a webcomic, and his fans don't have the same "speaking right" to discuss or explore similar issues? 

Thats.....not right.

You're confusing not talking about their intimacy with not talking about their relationship. We don't talk about their bits because it shouldn't matter and makes many people in this forum uncomfortable.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #252 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:35 »

I really, desperately want to emphasize that Marten just said:

"I'm not being passively cool with things, I'm being actively happy with them."

This is about the most explicit, blunt, stated evidence of character growth that sums up this entire character arc.

As in Marten has grown as a character.

Revel!
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #253 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:36 »

...so why can't we just respect Claire and Marten (and through them, all other real-life trans/cis couples) and allow them their privacy?

So what your saying is, Jeph has every right to "discuss" a topic/explore an issue via an open forum like a webcomic, and his fans don't have the same "speaking right" to discuss or explore similar issues? 

Thats.....not right.

As far as I can tell, the 'disussion and exploration' basically boils down to:
  • A prurient and speculative interest in Claire's genitals;
  • Angry disbelief that Marten can be 'okay' with it, whatever it is;
  • An insistence that Marten is 'out of character' for having shown character growth in his approach to interpersonal interactions.
[edit]
What is really annoying about #3 is that the people who are offended by Marten not being fixed and static in personality are typically the same people who complain about Claire being under-developed as a character! Yeah... You can tell that I'm getting fed up with the whole scratched record, can't you?
[/edit]

I really, desperately want to emphasize that Marten just said:

"I'm not being passively cool with things, I'm being actively happy with them."

This is about the most explicit, blunt, stated evidence of character growth that sums up this entire character arc.

As in Marten has grown as a character.

Revel!

Exactly. Is that so hard to imagine?
« Last Edit: 18 Feb 2015, 01:49 by BenRG »
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Orkboy

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #254 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:39 »

It kind of feels like 'We're not going to talk about it, but we're talking about it' again and it feels like that vagueness is making it hard to read.

I mean, I'm breaking the rules talking about it, but..they're talking about it in comic aren't they? So, I guess I'll spoil it for warning to anyone who doesn't want to read it. And if the post gets deleted I'll understand.
(click to show/hide)

Or is it a problem on my end and I'm reading more into it then there is?

I think you're reading too much into it.  I think the conversation is more about how Claire was worried that Marten was in the "cool with trans, would feel weird dating a trans person" camp.  Based on the threads in Discuss, it's a big problem for trans people. 

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #255 on: 18 Feb 2015, 01:40 »

Add-on: and regardless of whether or not anyone thinks that we should be able to discuss their intimacy and naughty bits, everyone needs to realize that a lot of people here are offended by that kind of talk. It's just plain old common courtesy to not talk about it.
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Thrillho

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #256 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:20 »

...so why can't we just respect Claire and Marten (and through them, all other real-life trans/cis couples) and allow them their privacy?

So what your saying is, Jeph has every right to "discuss" a topic/explore an issue via an open forum like a webcomic, and his fans don't have the same "speaking right" to discuss or explore similar issues? 

Thats.....not right.

There is a difference between discussing the storyline developments and Marten's attitude towards them and unnecessary discussion of the finer details/mechanics of the sex they are having or not having/Claire's anatomy. This has been repeatedly explained as to the hurt it can cause to the actual trans* individuals who frequent this forum. This discussion has gone round and round in circles countless times and actual harm is being caused by these crass discussions. And if that doesn't work for you:
Moderator Comment The forum's rules are the forum's rules, and while the mods are always open to constructive criticism (there is a thread for that in Discuss) this is one issue on which we will not be budging. We are here to enforce those rules and maintain this forum as a safe place for all, and warnings and bans have been given out over this exact issue before now.
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Genbuthesaint

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #257 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:27 »

So anyone else hope Clinton or Marten's mom shows up in in the next few strips? I'm hoping Marten's mom shows up more, though his dads rock as well. Heck yeah! Two dads!
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #258 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:30 »

So anyone else hope Clinton or Martens mom shows up in in the next few strips? I'm hoping Martens mom shows up more, though his dads rock as well. Heck yeah! Two dads!

Claire and Marten arrive at the Augustus residence. Claire decides to show Marten her room. When they go upstairs, Mrs A steps out of her room in a negligee and squeaks in embarrassment. Marten, being Marten, is embarrassed but cool with it.

"Spitfire, who is it?" calls a voice that is so familiar that Marten and Claire forget all propriety. They peek in the room to see Jim and Veronica in the maternal Augustine bed.

TRAUMA COEFFICIENT: 250% AND RISING
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ASB84

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #259 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:32 »

As I've said before, I don't think people necessarily want negativity and drama with Marten and Claire - at least not this early - but there are those of us who are definitely hoping to see engaging storylines involving them that go beyond "look how cute they are together". If there is eventually a speed bump in their relationship, maybe it will be because Marten becomes too worried about saying or doing the wrong thing, or hurting Claire, and ends up being over-protective or treating her like she's fragile. That would be interesting, and well set up. That doesn't need to happen soon though (if at all), but again, I'd like to see them in arcs and adventures (as much "adventure" can be had in slice-of-life, that is) that are interesting, entertaining, amusing, and all that; more than just cutesy moments.

There can and should be cutesy moments of course, but if that's all there is, then frankly I'd find that a bit bland, boring, and off-putting after a while. Cut through the treacle and tell a few other stories along the way, is all I'm saying.

As for Clinton, I think it's been established that he's fine with their relationship and isn't going to interfere. While he's had his jerkass moments, I feel that Clinton has kind of gotten a bad rap. It actually reminds me a little of the situation with Dora; it seems like some people really want to see him humiliated and put in his place. I think his concern for Claire ultimately came from a good place, even if he handled it badly. A couple of strips have shown that she does appreciate the underlying sentiment, even if his approach annoys or embarrasses her. But, like Dora, he doesn't seem to be able to win with a portion of the audience that wants to see him "get his" every time he appears.

I guess I started to feel a bit sorry for him during the arc with Emily, where I felt Claire was bullying and being unnecessarily mean to him. His remark about being OK with her dating Marten as long as he was introduced to his "hot friends" was taken way out of context, I feel. His acceptance wasn't actually contingent on that, it was trying to play it cool while asking "So hey, since you've got someone now, I'd like to be set up". I think there's sympathetic backstory and likeable/relatable elements to Clinton's character, but it's tough for us to see that when we've seen his less admirable traits (even if some of them had admirable motivations).

Anyway, that conversation between Marten and Claire was good. It was more touching on a delicate topic without being tasteless or overstepping bounds, and it was a realistic discussion. It was also positive. Good stuff.

I'm also kind of hoping that everyone's reaction to Marten and Claire spending the night together is kind of downplayed. The punchline of people reacting with exuberant joy to Marten and Claire being together has been done to death at this point, so I'd rather not see it re-hashed again. It also comes off a little like it's shilling the relationship, which is unnecessary because we've seen it develop and have been shown the chemistry and dynamic between Marten and Claire. I'd rather see Tai make a sly, even slightly inappropriate remark that makes them blush, rather than throwing confetti and whatnot.
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Orkboy

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #260 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:39 »

I think part of the negative reactions to Clinton is that we didn't get a lot of character depth until we learned that part of his issues is trying to be a good brother for Claire after/during her transition.  While this did round him out a bit more, it also landed him squarely in a supporting role, and it takes a lot more to get an audience to change their feelings on a supporting character than it would for a main cast member because the audiences' feelings for the supporting character are based so heavily on how they interact with main characters.  We had a few negative and/or awkward interactions between Clinton and both Marten and Hanners, and until he does something to override those initial reactions, he'll always be "that guy that was kind of a jerk to Marten and Hanners."

hedgie

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #261 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:44 »

Don't forget Momo.  She had to give Clinton a rather large jolt in order for him to behave himself.  Aside from Claire, it seems as though her family doesn't exactly get the whole "boundries" bit.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #262 on: 18 Feb 2015, 02:52 »

Aside from Claire, it seems as though her family doesn't exactly get the whole "boundries" bit.

Oh, it's a family-wide affliction alright! Remember Claire's faux pas? "I don't know, are you dumb?" and "I don't take orders from home-wreckers!" Tact and boundaries just aren't an Augustine Family thing. :lol:
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NilsO

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #263 on: 18 Feb 2015, 04:16 »

Oh, it's a family-wide affliction alright! Remember Claire's faux pas? "I don't know, are you dumb?" and "I don't take orders from home-wreckers!" Tact and boundaries just aren't an Augustine Family thing. :lol:
Yes, Claire has some less desirable traits, that can very well lead to conflicts with Marten's friends (or with Marten) in the future. Clinton may also contribute. In many ways, Claire and Clinton act as immature brats. They are QC's version of Gavia and Ardent.

Possible scenario: After Tai has finished squeeing, she might become tired of Claire and Marten fornicating on the copying machine. Also, it might be against library employment rules for co-workers to have a relationship. Claire will say something stupid, making Tai angry. Marten will try to defend Claire. Both of them will get fired. Shit happens.

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #264 on: 18 Feb 2015, 04:27 »

Possible scenario: After Tai has finished squeeing, she might become tired of Claire and Marten fornicating on the copying machine.

I can't be bothered to look it up, but Claire has already made her (sensible and mature) views on this kind of behaviour (or anything remotely approaching it) perfectly clear to Marten. "Once we go thorough those doors" etc.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #265 on: 18 Feb 2015, 04:29 »

So anyone else hope Clinton or Martens mom shows up in in the next few strips? I'm hoping Martens mom shows up more, though his dads rock as well. Heck yeah! Two dads!

Claire and Marten arrive at the Augustus residence. Claire decides to show Marten her room. When they go upstairs, Mrs A steps out of her room in a negligee and squeaks in embarrassment. Marten, being Marten, is embarrassed but cool with it.

"Spitfire, who is it?" calls a voice that is so familiar that Marten and Claire forget all propriety. They peek in the room to see Jim and Veronica in the maternal Augustine bed.

TRAUMA COEFFICIENT: 250% AND RISING

That also explains exactly why Drunk Veronica adressed Claire as Clarice (as in "it's ClaireMom's name").
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #266 on: 18 Feb 2015, 04:36 »

No-one should ever, ever, whether in a comic or in RL, find out or even try to find out anything about their parents' sex lives. Maybe that is why Marten is so laid-back - he has partaken of so much forbidden knowledge and is now completely unshockable.
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Omega Entity

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #267 on: 18 Feb 2015, 05:58 »

Am I the only one reading Marten's "I want to keep going" in regards to progressing with the relationship, as an indication that they haven't -actually- slept together? I mean it seems to me that Claire's trying to get confirmation that Marten's ready for 'the next step' and though it could be emotionally, it sounds to me like it's regarding the physical aspect. So, that said, I don't think they've actually done the deed, just had a bit of fun.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #268 on: 18 Feb 2015, 06:12 »

Keep in mind folks, the intimate moments between Marten and Claire have been no different than those between any other couple in the comic. There was lead up, a bit of clothes-on foreplay, some kissing and implication of more to come. Then a fade to black at the end of a strip, and the next day is post-coital cuddling. It has always been the same, and probably always will be. It's the things that Jeph doesn't show that we shouldn't be talking about. We don't discuss what Dora and Tai get up to. We didn't talk about what Faye and Angus liked to do. We don't speculate on what Claire and Marten do. That sort of thing is to intimate, to personal and not a place the comic goes to. The same respect should be had when discussing the comic.
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Khazgar

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #269 on: 18 Feb 2015, 06:13 »

For me, Claire made in clear in 2892 that they had done the deed by talking about "next time". I would interpret her question to Marten from today's comic as looking for reassurance from Marten as to his behaviour up to that point. She knows him well and didn't want to feel that Marten just fell into a relationship with her by chance as part of his passivity.

She is setting herself high standards in her first relationship - she wants to be sure that Marten actively wants what she does, I.e. a caring, sharing relationship on an equal footing. And once again Marten speaks from his heart and says exactly the right thing. I could really start feeling jealous...

I also think that Marten is talking about continuing and growing in the relationship. It's not only about sex!
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #270 on: 18 Feb 2015, 06:35 »

I'm with Khazgar on that part. I think Marten just means that he wants to keep going forward.

I love Claire's assertion too. Sounds like the kind of thing I'd say after such a conversation. Kyoot.
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MooskiNet

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #271 on: 18 Feb 2015, 06:56 »

Can't tell if he's just drawn better than usual this strip, or if Marten saying awesome things makes him better looking.

I mean, I know that happens in real life, I just never expected to experience it with a webcomic.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #272 on: 18 Feb 2015, 07:04 »

Can't tell if he's just drawn better than usual this strip, or if Marten saying awesome things makes him better looking.

I mean, I know that happens in real life, I just never expected to experience it with a webcomic.

I've said this before about Claire. I think that Jeph sometimes draws from a character's perspective. We occasionally see Claire through Marten's eyes and Marten through Claire's eyes. Their feelings for eachother make them look all the better.
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eschaton

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #273 on: 18 Feb 2015, 08:35 »

Once again, I guess I had a totally different reaction to this comic than most people.  I found it basically a worthless throwaway that doesn't advance plot or characterization. 

It's odd, because Jeph said he was moving away from dialogue-heavy strips.  Marten gets a ton of dialogue in this strip.  But it's basically just a long-winded way of saying "I'm really into you."   The strip does not seriously have exposition about Marten's feelings more broadly.  He could have said he was exposed to a lot of trans people through his mother as a child, and he never thought about it seriously - until he met Claire and it all changed.  Because he sees her as a person first - a person he's crazy about.  Instead he talks mush. 

This just feels like a retread of their first talk.  Claire asks if he's okay, Marten reassures her, and she is beaming at the end.  I'm immune to Marten/Claire squee, but I can't even see what's squee worthy in this strip.  It's frankly the lamest I've seen in months. 
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #274 on: 18 Feb 2015, 09:11 »

I just thought of this, the fact that Claire may cause some issues between Marten and Claire.  Not because Marten has issues with Claire being trans but Claire, this being her first boyfriend, subconsciously thinking Marten is just humoring her.  So far Claire is approaching this right by talking out her concerns, hopefully that continues.  (The reason this came to me is one of my best friends is trans and she said she ended up screwing up a good relationship due to worrying about her partner being weirded out by her being trans despite him repeatedly tell her he was cool with it.  Eventually the constant worrying drove a wedge between them.)

BTW I think they are a cute couple so I hope this works they both deserve happiness.

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #275 on: 18 Feb 2015, 10:16 »

I'm immune to Marten/Claire squee, but I can't even see what's squee worthy in this strip.  It's frankly the lamest I've seen in months.

Yup, me too. I'm not a fan of trashy romance novels, and I'm not a fan of this 'oh-they-are-soo-perfect-with-each-other-stuff' *squee*. I think it's fine that there are couples that are good with each other, but you don't need to show every boring step.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #276 on: 18 Feb 2015, 10:25 »

TBH, I don't really ship characters and I'm not one for squeeing, but I will offer this one piece of advice - if something seems to be too good to be true, then it probably is.

Make that how you will.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #277 on: 18 Feb 2015, 11:21 »

Yup, me too. I'm not a fan of trashy romance novels, and I'm not a fan of this 'oh-they-are-soo-perfect-with-each-other-stuff' *squee*. I think it's fine that there are couples that are good with each other, but you don't need to show every boring step.

Just to be clear, from a human dynamic standpoint, what Marten said to Claire is 100% defensible.  From a strip/story standpoint, however, it didn't need to be said, because we already inferred as much already from how Marten was acting around Claire.  Each update should ideally do something to advance one of the core plot elements in the series, or let you know more about the person.  Throwaway humorous strips are fine as well, since they are entertaining.  I find the "squee" strips (particularly ice cream kisses) nauseating, but I can understand why some people like them.  But again this isn't a squee strip - this is supposed to be a discussion about feelings - and it comes across as a nothingburger. 

Unless...as Isyrion intimated, the real purpose of the strip is to highlight that Claire is insecure, and to foreshadow her insecurity eventually causing conflict.  That could end up interesting...eventually.   Although it would be a retread of sorts, given Dora was damn insecure herself. 
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #278 on: 18 Feb 2015, 11:23 »

Once again, I guess I had a totally different reaction to this comic than most people.  I found it basically a worthless throwaway that doesn't advance plot or characterization. 

It's odd, because Jeph said he was moving away from dialogue-heavy strips.  Marten gets a ton of dialogue in this strip.  But it's basically just a long-winded way of saying "I'm really into you."   The strip does not seriously have exposition about Marten's feelings more broadly.  He could have said he was exposed to a lot of trans people through his mother as a child, and he never thought about it seriously - until he met Claire and it all changed.  Because he sees her as a person first - a person he's crazy about.  Instead he talks mush. 

This just feels like a retread of their first talk.  Claire asks if he's okay, Marten reassures her, and she is beaming at the end.  I'm immune to Marten/Claire squee, but I can't even see what's squee worthy in this strip.  It's frankly the lamest I've seen in months.

I kinda feel similarly. Marten has seemed pretty actively attracted to Claire all along. The only part where he seemed a little more passive is during the afterglow when he responded to Claire's exclamation that it was amazing with a simple, "yeah." But like every thing he's done since the scritchening has shown a lot of physical attraction and initiative while their scenes together have shown a lot of great chemistry. So maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, or it's just Claire asking for uh... elucidation of something that was pretty :claireface: all along.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #279 on: 18 Feb 2015, 11:44 »

My reaction to this strip was more or less the same as to the post on Jeph's tumblr... "wow, he must have been getting an absolute deluge of questions on this topic." The amount of exposure to the variety of (everything) that one gets even with just regular exposure to webcomics in this vein and occasional forum perusals is drastically different than someone who is only immersed in mass market media, similar to how someone whose radio is turned to a politically active (or even aware) station or who follows even a single political blog will have a view of the world completely different from someone who is only exposed to the bare minimum and mostly follows pop culture.

The creator of a work like QC is going to be immersed in questions and discussions (and demands, rants) that can overwhelm the perspective of a reader who is fairly blasé about the issues and is more interested in the funny, conflict, or storytelling. This feels more like an exorcism of the response he's getting so as to be able to cleanly cut to a new story than anything required for the story itself.

Of course, I could be wrong and all of this could just be an extended setup for a dramatic freakout the next time he's alone and not being confronted by a catastrophe. While unnecessary, it wouldn't strain credulity to see that become a vector for internal conflict; it might be too low-hanging a fruit, though, since that particular SL from setup to resolution (positive, so as not to turn readers away from Marten as a person) practically writes itself with the existing cast.
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miados

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #280 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:03 »

I had a date with a girl like claire once. And by that i mean the mtf aspect. She was and is a very lovely, sweet, and great girl who I am still friends with even if it isn't super close. I like to think if she asked me something like that I would have said something similar, but i would have thought longer of how to say it and not as good. I am not good at being a human. I never got out of the buggy beta version of being a human.

I think marten is being great with claire. Anyone who is living with that worries about how people will treat them and with how some people are they have every right to worry and because of that they need to be reassured which I think is part of why claire has asked more than once about him being ok with her.

I hope things go well for these two. I also love how it seemed (at least to me) that claire had feelings towards marten before the hook up started. I love when there seems to be feelings for the couple before they become one. I hate when some comics (not this one so far) just force couples for the sake of the story. I mean the characters make the story not the other way around.

I'm gonna shut up now. before I ramble to much and say something stupid.
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eschaton

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #281 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:07 »

My reaction to this strip was more or less the same as to the post on Jeph's tumblr... "wow, he must have been getting an absolute deluge of questions on this topic." The amount of exposure to the variety of (everything) that one gets even with just regular exposure to webcomics in this vein and occasional forum perusals is drastically different than someone who is only immersed in mass market media, similar to how someone whose radio is turned to a politically active (or even aware) station or who follows even a single political blog will have a view of the world completely different from someone who is only exposed to the bare minimum and mostly follows pop culture.

The creator of a work like QC is going to be immersed in questions and discussions (and demands, rants) that can overwhelm the perspective of a reader who is fairly blasé about the issues and is more interested in the funny, conflict, or storytelling. This feels more like an exorcism of the response he's getting so as to be able to cleanly cut to a new story than anything required for the story itself.

Wow, that's really sad if true.  And it shows a huge limitation of serial-format stories in the digital age.  Think about how terrible many of the classics would have been if each chapter was submitted to the public in turn, and the dialogue and plotting changed slightly in response.  It might make for popular stories, but it wouldn't make for superior ones. 

I'd like to think that Jeph is paying no heed to the collective voice of the internet (or the forum even) when plotting out the strip.  It's okay if he gets the seeds of particular ideas from individuals - that's how creativity works.  But ultimately he needs to be telling his story - and not the story the audience is clamoring for him to tell - in order to have the strip reach its full potential. 
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #282 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:08 »

Okay, I'm getting the gist that the people who are obsessed with Claire's "plumbing" are curious about trans people. While this is not polite (and not necessarily appropriate for a PG, upbeat, slice-of-life comic), it is human.

A great set of comics to quench that curiosity (and learn the finer points of how to behave around non-cis/non-hetero/sexually "atypical" people) can be found at discordcomics.com. There's currently a great rewrite/parody of Shades of Grey going down (Shades of A), and links to another group of comics called Khaos Komix which have really great tell-all stories about two trans characters. Some of them are NWS, but they are labeled as such when you come upon them.

I'm loving how "boring" and "normal" Marten's and Claire's relationship is. Sometimes that's just how it goes down in real life—regardless of the type of people involved. It's sweet and feels good to read—especially considering all the drama with Faye.
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TheCallMeFez

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #283 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:11 »

Seems to me that she was just looking for some....
Claire-ity 
:clairedoge:



I'll show myself out
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cesium133

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #284 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:12 »

Wow, that's really sad if true.  And it shows a huge limitation of serial-format stories in the digital age.  Think about how terrible many of the classics would have been if each chapter was submitted to the public in turn, and the dialogue and plotting changed slightly in response.  It might make for popular stories, but it wouldn't make for superior ones. 
I may be misreading this (I don't think the coffee is working so well today), but many of the classics were published that way.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #285 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:25 »

I may be misreading this (I don't think the coffee is working so well today), but many of the classics were published that way.

Of course some books were originally serialized.  That in and of itself isn't a problem, it's just a marketing gimmick.  The only serious feedback an author at the time would have regarding serials, however, is how well the sold, which would let him know if they should stay the course, veer off in a different direction, or just wrap it up entirely.  But even if you decided a curveball was needed, it was up to you to decide what that would be, not your fans. 

The internet is different, because you have basically instant critique thrown back at you as an author.  Indeed, the amount of criticism on the internet may surpass original content by at least an order of magnitude.  If you give in to the critique - if you give the fans what they want rather than what you have planned - you're on a slippery slope towards a "market study" view of storytelling.  You're producing a product. 
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #286 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:33 »

This entry from Jeph's Twitter feed is probably not good news for everyone, based on the comments I've seen (especially this evening).
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #287 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:36 »

*Emergency Cuteness Buffers Online*
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #288 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:37 »

The internet is different, because you have basically instant critique thrown back at you as an author.  Indeed, the amount of criticism on the internet may surpass original content by at least an order of magnitude.  If you give in to the critique - if you give the fans what they want rather than what you have planned - you're on a slippery slope towards a "market study" view of storytelling.  You're producing a product.

Literature has always been a product to a greater or lesser extent.  Hell, part of the reason that Sherlock Holmes was brought back from the dead was over pressure from Doyle's fanbase over Holmes' "death" in "The Final Problem."  Even back in the late 1800s, fandoms were pretty rabid (with fan-fiction, and pretty vehement feedback to stories they didn't like - or worse, stories they did.)  It might not have been as instantaneous, but authors were quite aware of the reactions to their stories, even those that were being serialized, and it absolutely influenced the actions of some authors.


Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your use of deductive reasoning.  You might have missed a vital clue!
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Neko_Ali

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #289 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:52 »

This entry from Jeph's Twitter feed is probably not good news for everyone, based on the comments I've seen (especially this evening).

My squee is ready.
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bhtooefr

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #290 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:53 »

Prepare forum... prepare forum for ludicrous squee! Fasten all seatbelts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!
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Cyril

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #291 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:56 »

Wow, that's really sad if true.  And it shows a huge limitation of serial-format stories in the digital age.  Think about how terrible many of the classics would have been if each chapter was submitted to the public in turn, and the dialogue and plotting changed slightly in response.  It might make for popular stories, but it wouldn't make for superior ones. 

I'd like to think that Jeph is paying no heed to the collective voice of the internet (or the forum even) when plotting out the strip.  It's okay if he gets the seeds of particular ideas from individuals - that's how creativity works.  But ultimately he needs to be telling his story - and not the story the audience is clamoring for him to tell - in order to have the strip reach its full potential.

I don't think it'd be possible to take no heed at all, but any creator who has a personal creative vision is going to follow that over the reactions from fans. I didn't mean to imply that JJ or any other specific person (living or dead) is actually taking a strong cue from their feedback, but it's almost inevitable that it's going to color how long and hard you push on certain points to make sure they are received as intended.

To put it another way, some of the most serialized and 'plugged in' authors these days are going to almost certainly use that feedback to adjust the degree to which character traits are shown if they feel that they aren't being interpreted as the author intends (scriptwriting is probably the most obvious, and egregious, example), but a confident author isn't going to change the character entirely because of the same feedback.
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brew

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #292 on: 18 Feb 2015, 12:57 »


I'm loving how "boring" and "normal" Marten's and Claire's relationship is. Sometimes that's just how it goes down in real life—regardless of the type of people involved.

I don't mind how the relationship is, but I don't like strips being written to show this. You could take away these strips and we'd still get it. It just feels like a waste.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #293 on: 18 Feb 2015, 13:12 »

Tomorrow is strip 2900. Either Marten is proposing to Claire, or Jim to Veronica, or Tai to Dora, or the other way around.

(click to show/hide)
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #294 on: 18 Feb 2015, 13:21 »

...so why can't we just respect Claire and Marten (and through them, all other real-life trans/cis couples) and allow them their privacy?

So what your saying is, Jeph has every right to "discuss" a topic/explore an issue via an open forum like a webcomic, and his fans don't have the same "speaking right" to discuss or explore similar issues? 

Thats.....not right.

That is not what's happening.

Jeph has been approaching everything trans-related with taste and respect. Jeph, the mods, and the community are only asking for the same from the fans.
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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #295 on: 18 Feb 2015, 13:40 »

That is not what's happening.

Jeph has been approaching everything trans-related with taste and respect. Jeph, the mods, and the community are only asking for the same from the fans.

But the strip can't escape the unsightly issues that come with such things. It's better to educate than just sweep it under the rug.
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eschaton

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #296 on: 18 Feb 2015, 13:41 »

I don't mind how the relationship is, but I don't like strips being written to show this. You could take away these strips and we'd still get it. It just feels like a waste.

If we're going to have filler, I'd rather have Steve eating cereal, or Pintsize doing something zany.  At least it would make me chuckle for a second. 
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ReindeerFlotilla

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #297 on: 18 Feb 2015, 13:51 »

Dennis Miller once said, "We all like to think we're beautiful and unique snowflakes, but when we're alone we all do the same stupid shit."

He was just talking about the condition of being human, at that moment. I think it applies to the condition of being human. Strip a work of references to its time, and you find it applies as much now as did when it was written. Kids these days has a storied history dating back to ancient Greece (the popular quote on the subject actually dates to 1907, but if you look up the context, it stands as a summary of a number of Greek educators complaining about how kids used to be more studious and respectful).

If the kids have always been... well... kids, it follows that the fans have always been fans. The internet only allows more fans to connect more rapidly. It's not that it's changed what we are. It's just allowed us to be alone together with millions of like minded souls. Our same stupid shit is amplified, but it isn't fundamentally different.

Now, about Claire's sex tackle, there are three points that I think bear mention. First, all animals may be equal, but some animals are more equal than others. This here is Jeph's house. If he wants to draw on the walls in marker, he can do that. You have to ask permission. If he says "no," that it. You just to get to watch him draw on the walls, but you get no marker for yourself. If you want a marker, get your own house. You can then discuss the content of Claire's pants to your heart's content. Invite like minded friends! Enjoy the power of denying them access to the markers!

Second, there's nothing necessarily prurient about genitals. That's just a social construct. Like gender or heterosexuality. We have (and by "we" I mean us, including me) some exceptionally dangerous post-Victorian hangups about this whole sex thing. That these hang ups exist is at the root of the discomfort the subject of Claire's anatomy invokes. I propose to do exactly nothing about that aspect. I'm not going to erase nigh 200 years of puritan thought with a pithy comment in webcomic fandom. But I can shine the harsh light on it. Getting bent out of shape about the existence of vaginas and pene costs lives. For some bizarre reason, we tend to think that other people's bit are our business. I mean that in a narrow sense. If we only kept to our own business, it would be a lonely world. But there's a difference between knowledge and ownership of business. I might ask what kind of peanut butter you use. That's really none of my business, unless I mean to eat some of it. But it's not a gross violation of anything, either. Genitals are like that. Most people have them, and you aren't going to eat the vast majority of them. (Also, some people are violently allergic to them.) Knowledge doesn't imply action.

But the flipside of the puritan hang up is the fact that majority confuses knowledge with action. The majority thinks, "I know this thing, so I must do something about it." "Or I know this thing and I find it distasteful, so I must punish those who gave me this information, even though I asked for." To quote another wise man, "a person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals, and you know it."

So, the board policy is the best policy among no great options. But it's important, IMO, to remember that the side-eye given to people with potentially justifiable curiosity is actually a symptom of the underlying pathology that make the policy necessary.

Third--I have said this before, but it deserves repeating until it stops being true--nothing in QC has served as even a useful hint about the configuration of the junction between Claire's legs. Everything is wholly consistent with whatever interpretation you choose to be your headcanon. In/out/none. Whatever you want, the comic supports.

It's possible that Jeph knows the answer (I happen to agree with Christopher Nolan; if you don't intend to tell the audience, you still need to tell yourself. Otherwise you risk injecting nonsense into the story). It's also possible he doesn't. But, so far, nothing in the comic has given a clue, one way or any other.

If a definitive clue ever does drop, the forum rules make this exactly not the place to discuss it. I understand the temptation. When Claire took her pants off, my first thought was that a definitive clue had dropped. Further reflection convinced me that nothing had changed, but there was a moment. And in that moment, I wanted to run my thoughts by a group of people who had the necessary background to vet them. But I didn't, because the rules say that's not cool.

Item's one, two, and three come together at that point. There's nothing definitive. Even if there had been, humanity isn't ready for a rational discussion on the subject for a variety of reasons. Even if humanity was ready, it's Jeph's house and in Jeph's house we do not talk about Fight Club--er the specifics of people's pants cargo. It's not cool. It's not cool when the n00bs do it, it's not cool when the trolls do it, and it's not cool when vets point to the marks on Jeph's walls and try to use them as justification for their own impromptu impressionist phase.

/rant

Zebediah

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #298 on: 18 Feb 2015, 14:25 »

That is not what's happening.

Jeph has been approaching everything trans-related with taste and respect. Jeph, the mods, and the community are only asking for the same from the fans.

But the strip can't escape the unsightly issues that come with such things. It's better to educate than just sweep it under the rug.

Here. Also here.

If that's "sweeping it under the rug" then it's an awfully goddamned big rug.
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WanderNotAimless

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Re: WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
« Reply #299 on: 18 Feb 2015, 14:27 »

Dennis Miller once said, "We all like to think we're beautiful and unique snowflakes, but when we're alone we all do the same stupid shit."

He was just talking about the condition of being human, at that moment. I think it applies to the condition of being human. Strip a work of references to its time, and you find it applies as much now as did when it was written. Kids these days has a storied history dating back to ancient Greece (the popular quote on the subject actually dates to 1907, but if you look up the context, it stands as a summary of a number of Greek educators complaining about how kids used to be more studious and respectful).

If the kids have always been... well... kids, it follows that the fans have always been fans. The internet only allows more fans to connect more rapidly. It's not that it's changed what we are. It's just allowed us to be alone together with millions of like minded souls. Our same stupid shit is amplified, but it isn't fundamentally different.

Now, about Claire's sex tackle, there are three points that I think bear mention. First, all animals may be equal, but some animals are more equal than others. This here is Jeph's house. If he wants to draw on the walls in marker, he can do that. You have to ask permission. If he says "no," that it. You just to get to watch him draw on the walls, but you get no marker for yourself. If you want a marker, get your own house. You can then discuss the content of Claire's pants to your heart's content. Invite like minded friends! Enjoy the power of denying them access to the markers!

Second, there's nothing necessarily prurient about genitals. That's just a social construct. Like gender or heterosexuality. We have (and by "we" I mean us, including me) some exceptionally dangerous post-Victorian hangups about this whole sex thing. That these hang ups exist is at the root of the discomfort the subject of Claire's anatomy invokes. I propose to do exactly nothing about that aspect. I'm not going to erase nigh 200 years of puritan thought with a pithy comment in webcomic fandom. But I can shine the harsh light on it. Getting bent out of shape about the existence of vaginas and pene costs lives. For some bizarre reason, we tend to think that other people's bit are our business. I mean that in a narrow sense. If we only kept to our own business, it would be a lonely world. But there's a difference between knowledge and ownership of business. I might ask what kind of peanut butter you use. That's really none of my business, unless I mean to eat some of it. But it's not a gross violation of anything, either. Genitals are like that. Most people have them, and you aren't going to eat the vast majority of them. (Also, some people are violently allergic to them.) Knowledge doesn't imply action.

But the flipside of the puritan hang up is the fact that majority confuses knowledge with action. The majority thinks, "I know this thing, so I must do something about it." "Or I know this thing and I find it distasteful, so I must punish those who gave me this information, even though I asked for." To quote another wise man, "a person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals, and you know it."

So, the board policy is the best policy among no great options. But it's important, IMO, to remember that the side-eye given to people with potentially justifiable curiosity is actually a symptom of the underlying pathology that make the policy necessary.

Third--I have said this before, but it deserves repeating until it stops being true--nothing in QC has served as even a useful hint about the configuration of the junction between Claire's legs. Everything is wholly consistent with whatever interpretation you choose to be your headcanon. In/out/none. Whatever you want, the comic supports.

It's possible that Jeph knows the answer (I happen to agree with Christopher Nolan; if you don't intend to tell the audience, you still need to tell yourself. Otherwise you risk injecting nonsense into the story). It's also possible he doesn't. But, so far, nothing in the comic has given a clue, one way or any other.

If a definitive clue ever does drop, the forum rules make this exactly not the place to discuss it. I understand the temptation. When Claire took her pants off, my first thought was that a definitive clue had dropped. Further reflection convinced me that nothing had changed, but there was a moment. And in that moment, I wanted to run my thoughts by a group of people who had the necessary background to vet them. But I didn't, because the rules say that's not cool.

Item's one, two, and three come together at that point. There's nothing definitive. Even if there had been, humanity isn't ready for a rational discussion on the subject for a variety of reasons. Even if humanity was ready, it's Jeph's house and in Jeph's house we do not talk about Fight Club--er the specifics of people's pants cargo. It's not cool. It's not cool when the n00bs do it, it's not cool when the trolls do it, and it's not cool when vets point to the marks on Jeph's walls and try to use them as justification for their own impromptu impressionist phase.

/rant

I like this post. I can't say I agree with all of it, but I like it and respect it.

On a different note, which brought me to the thread originally: Are Marten and Emily the only friends who know about Claire being trans? I remember she told Marten at the lake house some time ago and then Emily at the library more recently. Is that as far as it has gone that we are aware of?
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