Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

The Domesticity of Marten, Faye, Claire and Pintsize

8 (9.6%)

The Talk, Phase 2

10 (12%)

Faye meets Keeper Hannelore

6 (7.2%)

Sam: "Come on! I need your help!"

1 (1.2%)

Dora Does Guilt-Trip

24 (28.9%)

Tai has no boudaries about employees' personal lives

13 (15.7%)

Clinton and Emily's "date" (because that's still happening, AFAIK)

21 (25.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Voting closed: 18 Feb 2015, 08:09

[valkygrrl]

I think CM_albion means more that, there seems to not be a very unified language that's appropriate across the board. When there's fifteen or more different possible pronouns that a person may or may not find acceptable to be referred by, it can be extremely daunting, especially for those who have little to no experience with appropriate language. It seems like having -so many- terms, with no real consensus on what's acceptable does more to hurt understanding and acceptance among others than it does to educate.

Let's see if I can still do this from memory

I me my mine
thou thee thy thine
ye you your
it its one
he him his
she her hers
we us our
they them their

And of course changes for tense.

Expect people to struggle with anything not on that list, which is to say anything that hasn't entered general usage. Also expect problems with the T words, second person informal has mostly dropped from the language.

[snarkyone]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 

You say potato, I say french fry!!.....

Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

[Aziraphale]

i must say, for all that i am a supporter of people being themselves, however that manifests, and will be until the day i die, this minefield of new terminology you have to memorize so as not to offend people gives me a headache sometimes.

kids these days with their newfangled mouth sounds why in my day we just had gay, straight, cis and trans and you'd like it maybe demisexual or genderqueer if you were a real special snowflake none of these fictives or otherkin you see running around in public like it's anthrocon all day long telling me I have to remember everyone's pronoun in the nominative, accusative, genitive and dative cases or they'll cry in a corner about how I'm erasing them with my linguistic hegemony well I got news for you, take one step across my lawn and I'll be after you with my pink pearl like Robert Rauschenberg with a Willem de Kooning on his easel!

This reminds me of an old history teacher who was in the habit of calling me "Mark," or occasionally "Brian" (neither of which is my name) because, as she would say every damn time, "You look like a Mark (or Brian)." It's not like she didn't know my name. It's not like it wasn't right there in front of her in black and white in her grade book. Remembering to call someone what they are, by the terminology with which they identify themselves, is as easy as remembering their name. It's also common courtesy.

But if that's asking too much... well, pleased to meet ya, Sparky.

I think CM_albion means more that, there seems to not be a very unified language that's appropriate across the board. When there's fifteen or more different possible pronouns that a person may or may not find acceptable to be referred by, it can be extremely daunting, especially for those who have little to no experience with appropriate language. It seems like having -so many- terms, with no real consensus on what's acceptable does more to hurt understanding and acceptance among others than it does to encourage education, acceptance, and understanding.

Think of it like a cliff face - sure, the determined are going to be all 'fuck you rock wall, Imma climb you like a mofo!', but for the vast, vast majority, they'll throw up their hands and take the path of least resistance -i in this case, they fall back on language that they know and are familiar with, and is easy to understand. Thus the importance of having bite-sized information to hand-feed the less-inclined masses. They're much more likely to make an effort, if they don't feel like it's an impossible endeavor to figure out what is the 'proper' word choice.

Language evolves as understanding evolves (and thank God for that). What I think can tend to complicate things is that it's not just the out-group (in this case, cis/het/etc. people) trying to keep up or figure this stuff out. As IICIH points out, the terminology evolves toward precision, which is always going to be not only more accurate, but probably also less hurtful, to the people on the receiving end of that terminology.

And sure, it's difficult. Hell, I've lost track of the number of proper descriptors for Americans of African descent that have been acceptable use just in my lifetime, and I'm not even that old. But if you care about people -- and while I'm aware I can come across like an asshole sometimes, I try to be kind and respectful to folks -- then you make the effort, regardless of the level of difficulty. Besides, like the rock climber in your metaphor, it gets a hell of a lot easier the more you do it.

[Kugai]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 

You say potato, I say french fry!!.....

Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

Fries with Tomato Sauce!

Frak!!!


NOW I'm frelling hungry again!!!


*Glowers menacingly*

[Omega Entity]

I think CM_albion means more that, there seems to not be a very unified language that's appropriate across the board. When there's fifteen or more different possible pronouns that a person may or may not find acceptable to be referred by, it can be extremely daunting, especially for those who have little to no experience with appropriate language. It seems like having -so many- terms, with no real consensus on what's acceptable does more to hurt understanding and acceptance among others than it does to educate.

Let's see if I can still do this from memory

I me my mine
thou thee thy thine
ye you your
it its one
he him his
she her hers
we us our
they them their

And of course changes for tense.

Expect people to struggle with anything not on that list, which is to say anything that hasn't entered general usage. Also expect problems with the T words, second person informal has mostly dropped from the language.

I was referring more to the 'Ne, Ve, Ze, Zie, Xe' type deals, not the adaptation of pronouns that are already commonly in use.

Language evolves as understanding evolves (and thank God for that). What I think can tend to complicate things is that it's not just the out-group (in this case, cis/het/etc. people) trying to keep up or figure this stuff out. As IICIH points out, the terminology evolves toward precision, which is always going to be not only more accurate, but probably also less hurtful, to the people on the receiving end of that terminology.

And sure, it's difficult. Hell, I've lost track of the number of proper descriptors for Americans of African descent that have been acceptable use just in my lifetime, and I'm not even that old. But if you care about people -- and while I'm aware I can come across like an asshole sometimes, I try to be kind and respectful to folks -- then you make the effort, regardless of the level of difficulty. Besides, like the rock climber in your metaphor, it gets a hell of a lot easier the more you do it.

Oh, I certainly try, and i will adapt if asked. I was simply trying to elaborate on what CM might have been trying to get at. I don't think they meant any kind of disrespect, but only that it can get a bit overwhelming at times. I myself tend to overthink things, and then worry that I said something wrong and then the person hates me. But I digress.

[cesium133]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 

You say potato, I say french fry!!.....

Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

Fries with Tomato Sauce!

Frak!!!


NOW I'm frelling hungry again!!!


*Glowers menacingly*

mmm... poutine...


No, not you, Vladimir!

[snarkyone]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 
You say potato, I say french fry!!.....
Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

Fries with Tomato Sauce!
Frak!!!
NOW I'm frelling hungry again!!!
*Glowers menacingly*

mmm... poutine...

I see now that I am trouble.   While this does not deter me, I will be more mindful in the future about my powers of suggestion.   
*cough*  Buy my Etsy stuff *cough*   

[Kugai]

[valkygrrl]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 

You say potato, I say french fry!!.....

Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

Fries with Tomato Sauce!

Frak!!!


NOW I'm frelling hungry again!!!


*Glowers menacingly*

I will cook you a meal in exchange for one unmelted lugwrench

[ReindeerFlotilla]

It's a relatively quick and easy way to communicate that you're not an enemy and that you care enough to pick up some vocabulary.

Actually, I can't disagree with this more. I think activists often get into recursive communications scenarios that they don't escape for extended periods. They reach a point, through talking amongst themselves for long periods, that they don't realize that the wider world doesn't have a clue what their jargon means.

And, face it. It is jargon. It shortens complicated phrases to easily packaged sylables. And that's actually a good thing. But the comfort generated by talking, writing, and otherwise communicating in closed circumstances makes them feel that jargon is universal, when--often, mind you--their own movements are divided over the appropriateness of the jargon.

If CM_albion had been inspired by the interjection of xe or zir or something, I'd not object to these responses. But they are actually responding, it seems, to cis. That's a different ballgame. Or, rather--to use their own words--a different minefield. You never know what part of what movement you're dealing with so you can't honestly know what jargon is going to step on toes and what jargon is got to please the French judge. Figuring it out is a lot of work for someone who is just trying to figure out "how do I not be an asshole in this situation."

I might have more sympathy for the opposing viewpoint, if people who were sensitive to the failures of the general public, vis-a-vis this jargon, were equally sensitive to jargon not related to their personal cause. But, in general, they aren't. I rather don't like people holding others to standard they refuse to meet themselves.

I'm not hating on the jargon. It has value, as it certainly reduces typing. e.g. the expansion of "cis" to non jargon is not "normal," it is "people whose physical sex is aligned with cultural definition of their chosen gender identity." That's a lot more letters than cis. But for a rank n00b that's not super helpful. There are two bits of near jargon in the definition of the jargon--the idea the physical sex and gender aren't the same thing, and that gender is just an identity.

Faced with how deep the rabbit hole actually goes, it is hardly surprising that the civilians balk--especially given some of rather vitriolic responses they get for not instantly embracing the jargon. Let's not forget about the previously mentioned minefield.

All of that said, I rather lack sympathy for any complaints about cis relevant to WCDT. It's something CLaire said in a context that makes perfect sense, and no one is required to do anything but google to figureout what she's talking about. So there's no need to face any minefields of offended people to understand the term long enough to fill any context gaps in the comic.

Edit: Also--and I'm not joking here, just to be clear--I find "Americans of African decent" incredibly offensive. That may seem random, but I expect it will make my point for me.

[snarkyone]

NOW I'm frelling hungry again!!!
*Glowers menacingly*

I skipped this but I must stop and give it the credit it deserves.   Someone that used Frell... well lets just say there aren't enough Farscape fans and I think that could be the friction some people are wanting in Clariten.   Claire is actually a Nebari and Marten is a silly Delvian.   Stick them in a peacekeeper prison and watch the sparks fly!!!!   

[snarkyone]

I will cook you a meal in exchange for one unmelted lugwrench

Would warped allen wrenches suffice?

[CM_albion]

I think CM_albion means more that, there seems to not be a very unified language that's appropriate across the board. When there's fifteen or more different possible pronouns that a person may or may not find acceptable to be referred by, it can be extremely daunting, especially for those who have little to no experience with appropriate language. It seems like having -so many- terms, with no real consensus on what's acceptable does more to hurt understanding and acceptance among others than it does to educate.

this is what i meant yes.

I...was not expecting the amount of aggression people responded to my comment with. or the presumptions that i was against the terminology. i must admit it was a little upsetting.

i had no idea that simply mentioning that i occasionally have trouble keeping track of language when the shifting social norms to a more accepting and open stance so as not to accidentally offend people by using the wrong word at the wrong time is something as this is something i am very self conscious of as i as a person get very paranoid about the notion i might hurt someones feelings with my actions because i partially on the autism spectrum and have extreme difficulty gauging the body language of others and how they react to what i say or do and then not realize i did something wrong until its too late and we're increasingly living in a diverse and wonderful world full of colourful expressive people able and willing to be themselves that i support fully with all my heart would cause trouble.

maybe i should have just typed all that from the beginning. i am so sorry if what i said genuinely upset someone

[snarkyone]

this is what i meant yes.
I...was not expecting the amount of aggression people responded to my comment with. or the presumptions that i was against the terminology. i must admit it was a little upsetting.
i had no idea that simply mentioning that i occasionally have trouble keeping track of language when the shifting social norms to a more accepting and open stance so as not to accidentally offend people by using the wrong word at the wrong time is something as this is something i am very self conscious of as i as a person get very paranoid about the notion i might hurt someones feelings with my actions because i partially on the autism spectrum and have extreme difficulty gauging the body language of others and how they react to what i say or do and then not realize i did something wrong until its too late and we're increasingly living in a diverse and wonderful world full of colourful expressive people able and willing to be themselves that i support fully with all my heart would cause trouble.
maybe i should have just typed all that from the beginning. i am so sorry if what i said genuinely upset someone

NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

[Is it cold in here?]

Oh, I understand entirely. This business of consciously working hard to do the right thing in an unfamiliar situation, and getting treated as an enemy over simple mistakes? But every time I start to gripe to myself about the work, I remember how much easier I have it than the people I'm talking about.

Besides, "biologically male" is way more confusing than MAAB(*). Jargon can actually be easier.

(*)Male Assigned At Birth. It means that the delivery room doctor put "male" on the birth certificate.

[snarkyone]

Oh, I understand entirely. This business of consciously working hard to do the right thing in an unfamiliar situation, and getting treated as an enemy over simple mistakes? But every time I start to gripe to myself about the work, I remember how much easier I have it than the people I'm talking about.

Besides, "biologically male" is way more confusing than MAAB(*). Jargon can actually be easier.

(*)Male Assigned At Birth. It means that the delivery room doctor put "male" on the birth certificate.

Queen Mab? 

What's she got to do with it?

[valkygrrl]

I will cook you a meal in exchange for one unmelted lugwrench

Would warped allen wrenches suffice?

For you or Kugai? Only one of you has been trying to corner the unmelted lugwrench market.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Oh, I understand entirely. This business of consciously working hard to do the right thing in an unfamiliar situation, and getting treated as an enemy over simple mistakes? But every time I start to gripe to myself about the work, I remember how much easier I have it than the people I'm talking about.

Besides, "biologically male" is way more confusing than MAAB(*). Jargon can actually be easier.

(*)Male Assigned At Birth. It means that the delivery room doctor put "male" on the birth certificate.

That's very noble of you, but it doesn't actually invalidate your experience. As the meme goes, if you aren't allowed to be upset because someone has it worse than you, logically you aren't allowed to be happy because, somewhere, someone has it better than you.

I'm not disagreeing over the technical terms. My disagreement, and I should have specified that, is with "relatively quick and easy." Only compared to mastering the piano, or getting pilot's license.

The fact is that the jargon tends to be rather recursive packaging of difficult concepts. It's great when dealing with people who are familiar with the concepts, because they really don't need you unpack all of that stuff, anyway. But outside that context, it is (to use another of my least favorite words) problematic.

(Though, that one is on my shit list because it seems to mean different things to different people. Here I mean "constituting or presenting a problem.")

[snarkyone]

For you or Kugai? Only one of you has been trying to corner the unmelted lugwrench market.

For me of course.   No more unmelted Lugwrench's.  I cornered the market long ago and they all get shipped to a garage in Buffalo next to the souls.

[valkygrrl]

For you or Kugai? Only one of you has been trying to corner the unmelted lugwrench market.

For me of course.   No more unmelted Lugwrench's.  I cornered the market long ago and they all get shipped to a garage in Buffalo next to the souls.

For you milady I shall prepare a feast. 

[snarkyone]

For you milady I shall prepare a feast.

[TRVA123]

I've also posted this in the Trans* thread, as I'm not sure exactly where to post this;

There is a publication looking for speculative fiction written by trans* authors! They say they will pay for the story, but they don't say how much.

http://topsidepress.com/news/cfs-short-speculative-fiction-by-transgender-writers/

[Aziraphale]

Edit: Also--and I'm not joking here, just to be clear--I find "Americans of African decent" incredibly offensive. That may seem random, but I expect it will make my point for me.

Please accept my apologies; if I'd thought I'd offend ANYone by saying that, I wouldn't have said it.

I think CM_albion means more that, there seems to not be a very unified language that's appropriate across the board. When there's fifteen or more different possible pronouns that a person may or may not find acceptable to be referred by, it can be extremely daunting, especially for those who have little to no experience with appropriate language. It seems like having -so many- terms, with no real consensus on what's acceptable does more to hurt understanding and acceptance among others than it does to educate.

this is what i meant yes.

I...was not expecting the amount of aggression people responded to my comment with. or the presumptions that i was against the terminology. i must admit it was a little upsetting.

i had no idea that simply mentioning that i occasionally have trouble keeping track of language when the shifting social norms to a more accepting and open stance so as not to accidentally offend people by using the wrong word at the wrong time is something as this is something i am very self conscious of as i as a person get very paranoid about the notion i might hurt someones feelings with my actions because i partially on the autism spectrum and have extreme difficulty gauging the body language of others and how they react to what i say or do and then not realize i did something wrong until its too late and we're increasingly living in a diverse and wonderful world full of colourful expressive people able and willing to be themselves that i support fully with all my heart would cause trouble.

maybe i should have just typed all that from the beginning. i am so sorry if what i said genuinely upset someone

My apologies to you as well, then. The way I took it (and, apparently, not the way you meant it at all) was what I hear a lot of from people who can't be bothered to keep up with the terminology (versus having difficulty keeping up). Like you, I get paranoid over the language I use because I try to A: use it properly, and B: avoid causing offense (which I've failed at twice today  ).

[snarkyone]

(which I've failed at twice today  ).

We all have bad days Aziraphale, no worries.

[jwhouk]

FYI:

@jakedebacher basically I wouldn't ask mods to change anything about that place, I just need to not go there.

"That place" wasn't here, on second read. It was the infamous QC subReddit.

[explicit]

"You tried your best and you failed miserably, the lesson is, never try." Homer Simpson

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Edit: Also--and I'm not joking here, just to be clear--I find "Americans of African decent" incredibly offensive. That may seem random, but I expect it will make my point for me.

Please accept my apologies; if I'd thought I'd offend ANYone by saying that, I wouldn't have said it.

Accepted. I wouldn't have mentioned except that it is true and it was perfectly in line with my point. You don't hear about it much, because I think people like me are tired of the fight. But I'm not from Africa. I don't know from Africa. I'm from Texas. There's a lot of people like me who are really tired of being "qualified" Americans.

That isn't the point, and I'm not holding it against you. The point is, there's literally nothing you could have said there that someone like me couldn't have found offensive. The only way to win is not to play. Except, if you refuse to play, everyone loses. So maybe, just maybe, it is incumbent upon me, as the oppressed party, to not give you a hard time for failing to beat the Kobayashi Maru.

Just sayin'

[Kugai]

*Burp*

[SubaruStephen]

You say tomato, I say bruschetta!! 
You say potato, I say french fry!!.....
Shit, my snark turned to hunger.... brb.

Fries with Tomato Sauce!
Frak!!!
NOW
I'm frelling hungry again!!!
*Glowers menacingly*

I will cook you a meal in exchange for one unmelted lugwrench

So lug wrenches are currency here? Like cigarettes in prison?

I'm rich!

[Aziraphale]

Edit: Also--and I'm not joking here, just to be clear--I find "Americans of African decent" incredibly offensive. That may seem random, but I expect it will make my point for me.

Please accept my apologies; if I'd thought I'd offend ANYone by saying that, I wouldn't have said it.

Accepted. I wouldn't have mentioned except that it is true and it was perfectly in line with my point. You don't hear about it much, because I think people like me are tired of the fight. But I'm not from Africa. I don't know from Africa. I'm from Texas. There's a lot of people like me who are really tired of being "qualified" Americans.

That isn't the point, and I'm not holding it against you. The point is, there's literally nothing you could have said there that someone like me couldn't have found offensive. The only way to win is not to play. Except, if you refuse to play, everyone loses. So maybe, just maybe, it is incumbent upon me, as the oppressed party, to not give you a hard time for failing to beat the Kobayashi Maru.

Just sayin'

Point well taken. And thank you.

Typically I just use black 'cause that's what the black people I know use, but some people take offense at -- as in, have completely gone off on me over -- that, too.

Rather off-topic, but it is Thursday, correct? Is there a comic this evening, or are we going to get more Yeti jokes from Yelling Bird?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Technically, you couldn't be more on topic.

[jwhouk]

It's also freaking cold and there's a ton of snow on the ground in the Pioneer Valley at the moment.

[explicit]

Moving on, I'm pretty sure it's just late. He was just using his twitter. (I was gonna comment on that whole thing, but it's probably better served in the "is this racist?" thread, being a good kid this time.)

[explicit]

And right on queue, comic's up

[TRVA123]

this is better, much more classic QC!

[tragic_pizza]

Last panel Claire is the Best Claire.

[jwhouk]

First one to find a nominee for the video that Emily was watching gets a fabulous no-prize.

[hedgie]

Okay, who *hasn't* howled at a wolf video or a werewolf film?  Show of hands, please.

[jwhouk]

Okay, who *hasn't* howled at a wolf video or a werewolf film?  Show of hands, please.

(crickets)

[DrClef]

First one to find a nominee for the video that Emily was watching gets a fabulous no-prize.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKYotRZNiZ0

[explicit]

First one to find a nominee for the video that Emily was watching gets a fabulous no-prize.

I mostly just thought this was cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxXOMwhl9_g

[DrClef]

... All right. I actually like #2901.

Hopefully we see more of this and less of 2900.

[Aziraphale]

Explicit: was that guy mauled by the wolves at some point? Or am I thinking of the guy with the bears?

[explicit]

Grizzly man was eaten by bears I believe, this is something else. I hadn't watched it before, but it seemed really cool. I mean FUCK he's eating a deer with a bunch of wolves!

[AprilArcus]

are these new backgrounds?

[Gladstone]

are these new backgrounds?

New angles on these, probably.

Edit: And panel 1 shows up in the last panel of 2366.

[Aziraphale]

... All right. I actually like #2901.

Hopefully we see more of this and less of 2900.

Today feels kinda like a coda, which might mean that we start seeing some new developments, or the picking up of one of the loose plot threads, Monday.

are these new backgrounds?

The first four seem to be. The fifth looks kinda familiar. [edit: Gladstone identified the fifth]

[explicit]

Jesus! How do people pull these up so quickly! I've read through QC 3 times, but you can be damned sure I don't remember the backgrounds!

[snarkyone]

This one wins.

[Gladstone]

Those steps are pretty familiar, is all.  They show up again in 2427.  So they're almost to the library, but I really hope we're not in for a week of Tai squeeing over them yet again.  Like Aziraphale says, please be coda.