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Gloomy Tai at the library

33 (43.4%)

Dora trying to make up with her GF

14 (18.4%)

Hannelore seeking vengeance on Juicy

8 (10.5%)

Marigold seeking medical aid

2 (2.6%)

Pintsize having an existential crisis

11 (14.5%)

Faye learning that 'creepy' is a state of mind

8 (10.5%)

Total Members Voted: 71

Voting closed: 10 Mar 2015, 08:40

[FunkyTuba]

His slowly backing away, never breaking eye contact and locking himself in the office really doesn't strike me as a 'NOPE'. It's more like someone who just saw a big, dangerous animal about to strike and is slowly backing away from the danger.

Not trying to be pedantic or overly sarcastic here, but I don't understand the difference between the two.

Perhaps I'm not a good enough student of The Way of Nope to see the subtleties involved, please enlighten me?

[chaospersonified]

His slowly backing away, never breaking eye contact and locking himself in the office really doesn't strike me as a 'NOPE'. It's more like someone who just saw a big, dangerous animal about to strike and is slowly backing away from the danger.

Not trying to be pedantic or overly sarcastic here, but I don't understand the difference between the two.

Perhaps I'm not a good enough student of The Way of Nope to see the subtleties involved, please enlighten me?

I think it's the difference between fear of hurting himself or someone else, and not caring enough about his friends to try and help

[Neko_Ali]

Chaospersonified beat me to it but yeah. Basically the distinction I was making was that Marten's reaction seemed more instinctual reaction than him rationally decided he didn't want to be involved. The difference of "OH SHIT! A BEAR!" and "Not my circus, not my monkies. I'm out of here."

[Rghfrgl]

The difference of "OH SHIT! A BEAR!" and "Not my circus, not my monkies. I'm out of here."

THAT'S what Marten sees. The bear that put Faye in the hospital isn't done. He's going to strike out at Faye's loved ones to draw her out for the rematch.

[swapna]

That's not an Allosaurus, that's a Velociraptor and the Raptor is Claire.

(click to show/hide)

Global Moderator Comment

image removed for consistency

That... is kind of disturbing 
Can't stop looking o.O

[Oenone]

I want him to have noped  so hard, he somehow ends up in Amherst in front of Dora's new apartment, where she's crying by herself because that's safer than crying in front of people.

[Cattus]

I think it's pretty clear what just happened here.  Marten has recently gotten into a happy place with Claire.  While this has been happening, the relationships of his closest friends have gone into the crapper.  He is zoning out, suffering from WTF syndrome.  And to top it off, he's at the core of this all - best buds and roomie with Faye, ex-bf of Dora, good friend and minion of Tai.  He's just hoping that Hanners and Marigold don't come to blows.  Bad Karma all around.  How will things settle out in the end?  I suspect things will get worse before they get better.
But better they WILL get - I'm banking on it.  It's FigNewton's law of the conservation of feels.  Positive feels will eventually balance all the negative feels until we get to feels equilibrium - because of the ever increasing entropy of feels.

[chaospersonified]

I think it's pretty clear what just happened here.  Marten has recently gotten into a happy place with Claire.  While this has been happening, the relationships of his closest friends have gone into the crapper.  He is zoning out, suffering from WTF syndrome.  And to top it off, he's at the core of this all - best buds and roomie with Faye, ex-bf of Dora, good friend and minion of Tai.  He's just hoping that Hanners and Marigold don't come to blows.  Bad Karma all around.  How will things settle out in the end?  I suspect things will get worse before they get better.
But better they WILL get - I'm banking on it.  It's FigNewton's law of the conservation of feels.  Positive feels will eventually balance all the negative feels until we get to feels equilibrium - because of the ever increasing entropy of feels.

*blink blink* Hanners and Marigold weren't IN today's strip, though? And in the last strip, they didn't seem to have nearly the falling out everyone was predicting for them last week. Hanners was angry, then they were talking about farting, and all seemed okay between them. The scene shifted to Marten and Tai, then, so presumably, those two strips were just filler.

[TheEvilDog]

Here's the thing though, Marten has been in the exact same position that Tai now finds herself. Hindsight really is 20/20 and right now, Marten has crystal clear vision. He knows all the warning signs, they are plastered everywhere. There might as well be giant flashing lights with guards posted to divert people from the upcoming crash. From Marten's perspective, if he tried to offer any advice or help in any way, he'd just end up taking the controls of a runaway train that's about to fly off the tracks.

No matter what happens now, someone is going to be hurt, someone is going to cry. By removing himself from the situation, Marten has made sure he can't be made a scapegoat by anyone if the crap does hit the fan.

[cesariojpn]

The issue of readers having unrealistic expectations of perfection has been brought up a couple of times in the past week. That's not why there are objections to the way certain characters are handling their business. When we consume fiction and react to fictional characters, we're (generally) not holding them to an unrealistic standard of perfection, but we do compare them to the real world, particularly when the characters are well-rounded, realistic, and relate-able.

To that end, we don't ask them to be perfect, but we do ask: are their actions, attitudes, and motives understandable? Reasonable? Sympathetic? That's what shapes our reactions to the characters and their role in the plot.

We can't ask fictional characters to not be perfect. Then again, we can't ask the creator of said characters to bend to the whim of the fandom. HOWEVER, said creator obviously cannot ignore the fandom that have genuine criticism and gripes about how a story or characters are progressing.

[aliensporebomb]

Marten had the look of post-breakup PTSD deja vu!  Poor guy! 

[Is it cold in here?]

One thing Marten could do is to give Tai the Cliff Notes on Dora's relationship history. Of course that might enrage Dora.

[chaospersonified]

One thing Marten could do is to give Tai the Cliff Notes on Dora's relationship history. Of course that might enrage Dora.

Which he knows, hence the back-away-slowly strategy.

Basically, I'm on his side here.  Nothing helpful Marten could say in this instance would do anything but anger someone. He probably could have said something to that effect, but that's at the risk of Tai jumping at him and begging him for more information and getting irritated if he didn't give it.

[Is it cold in here?]

Here's a funny interpretation.

We don't really see what's on the other side of the door.

Did Marten just lock himself in a closet?

[Pilchard123]

Didn't the raptor pic get removed from a previous thread?

[hedgie]

It did.  IIRC, it was posted with entirely innocent intentions, but its source, being a nasty cesspit made it a bit problematic.

[Zebediah]

Marten locked Tai in the office. Of course the latch is on her side so she can get out easily, but it will slow her down for a crucial second or two while he runs for the front door.

[Pilchard123]

She's obviously a student of the Havelock Vetinari school of door design.

[Is it cold in here?]

The mods are hypervigilant about some issues. If there's a complaint about the "clever girl" picture it will disappear again.

I'm not up on meme meanings but something disquieting came up when I researched it.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

The issue of readers having unrealistic expectations of perfection has been brought up a couple of times in the past week. That's not why there are objections to the way certain characters are handling their business. When we consume fiction and react to fictional characters, we're (generally) not holding them to an unrealistic standard of perfection, but we do compare them to the real world, particularly when the characters are well-rounded, realistic, and relate-able.

To that end, we don't ask them to be perfect, but we do ask: are their actions, attitudes, and motives understandable? Reasonable? Sympathetic? That's what shapes our reactions to the characters and their role in the plot.

We can't ask fictional characters to not be perfect. Then again, we can't ask the creator of said characters to bend to the whim of the fandom. HOWEVER, said creator obviously cannot ignore the fandom that have genuine criticism and gripes about how a story or characters are progressing.

Really? I see you point. Ignoring gripes and going in directions that upset fandom really killed George Lucas's career and made the Star Wars brand worth... 4 billion when sold to Disney.

Yeah. So a creator can definitely ignore the fandom.

MIDICHLORIANS MOFOS!

[grez]

The issue of readers having unrealistic expectations of perfection has been brought up a couple of times in the past week. That's not why there are objections to the way certain characters are handling their business. When we consume fiction and react to fictional characters, we're (generally) not holding them to an unrealistic standard of perfection, but we do compare them to the real world, particularly when the characters are well-rounded, realistic, and relate-able.

To that end, we don't ask them to be perfect, but we do ask: are their actions, attitudes, and motives understandable? Reasonable? Sympathetic? That's what shapes our reactions to the characters and their role in the plot.

We can't ask fictional characters to not be perfect. Then again, we can't ask the creator of said characters to bend to the whim of the fandom. HOWEVER, said creator obviously cannot ignore the fandom that have genuine criticism and gripes about how a story or characters are progressing.

Err... yes, yes they can. The criticism can be genuine and the gripes can be gripey, but the creator can ignore whatever the heck they want to. It may not be wise - it may even be stupid in some cases - but it's their right as creator to bend, break, mish, mash, and do whatever to their story.

[ASB84]

It's not about catering to the fanbase, though. It's about having characters that the audience becomes invested in and subsequently react to, in accordance with their own perceptions. I don't think anyone expects the cast of QC to always say or do the right thing - the strip would be pretty bland and boring if they did - but what the characters do still resonates with us the audience, and we evaluate the proceedings in accordance to what we each find understandable, reasonable, and sympathetic.

Sometimes there's multiple layers to that. Take Sven's recent appearance, for instance. It's understandable and reasonable that he'd develop romantic feelings for Faye, and we can sympathise with the fact that it causes him some confusion as he finds himself in unfamiliar territory. However, his attitude towards the situation, perception of himself as the protagonist of a romantic comedy, and expectations of Faye are not reasonable and do not make him sympathetic. Arguably understandable, given he's uncharacteristically out of his depth, but it fails on the other counts.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

John Grisham.

I should explain.

IMO, Grisham's protagonists have been uniformly detestable people. I was once trapped in a dull place with nothing to keep my sanity but a stack of his novels. I finished none of them.

I could argue that Grisham had failed in the characterization department. Except, best selling author, a multitude of film adaptations.

You simply can't argue that a characterization fails because you don't feel sympathy for the character's position. You can poll to find out if a supermajority finds the character wildly unrealistic or unreadable, but being unlikable is actually a valid way to be a character. Being addictively unlikabe is a kind of characterization super-combo finish.

I have never related to fictional Jerry Seinfeld, or Greg House, or Sherlock Holmes, or the Doctor, or Kara Thrace, or the Goddamn Batman. I'm not sure they are relatable characters. Each was (or is), in their own way, so the best at what they do, you expect something to go "snikt." They are watchable. Being watchable can cover for any amount of realism fail.

IMO, Marten had a watchable moment. Sven has been generally watchable. Every time he's skated close to relatability, he's done something to dance it back, but in a way the supported the humor of the comic. But all of that is opinion.

[cesariojpn]

The mods are hypervigilant about some issues. If there's a complaint about the "clever girl" picture it will disappear again.

I'm not up on meme meanings but something disquieting came up when I researched it.

Oh, you saw the ED and Know Your Meme articles about the strip, huh? Like the one that makes fun of the room myself.

You simply can't argue that a characterization fails because you don't feel sympathy for the character's position.

I point to Clariten as a counter-argument to this. The strips we've been given concerning Clariten have been devoid of info of why Marten has gone from a string of failed relationships with Females to him going out with a Transgendered person. It's pretty much "I like you, let's go out." Okay, WHY?!?!?! Is he just sick and tired of being the whipping boy with females that he thinks maybe going non-traditional would be a better shot at happiness? Is it because his childhood with Veronica exposing him to alternative lifestyles kinda gave him a more open mind when it comes to such things? Or some other obtuse reason?   

[ASB84]

You simply can't argue that a characterization fails because you don't feel sympathy for the character's position.

I never did.

I was talking about our reaction as readers, and the "What, do you expect (character) to be perfect?" argument that's come up a few times in the past week or so. I doubt anyone's holding the characters to that kind of standard, but our reactions from behind the fourth wall are still driven by how we perceive their words, actions, and motives. We may not always agree with their decisions and course of action, but we can understand it, see reason in it, sympathise with it.

Of course, that's stretching it out and breaking it down in a lengthier manner than we do when we're reading the comics. We make that analysis in an instant, deciding whether or not we agree with a character, and even if we don't, whether we can at least see their point of view. I'm not talking about the quality of the character, whether it succeeds or fails; in fact, if a character is eliciting a response from the audience, I think they're successful by default. I'm talking about our reactions to characters, how they push our buttons, whether we're cheering or jeering them, what we think of the things they're saying and doing when there's a grey area. Reactions to the events of the story and how it makes us feel, not whether we think the characters succeed or fail from a narrative point of view. That's another discussion entirely, as is whether or not the characters are entertaining (or as you said, watchable).

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I'm not sure I see the distinction. I don't claim there isn't one. I just don't see it.

Humans are emotional beasts. We like to lie to ourselves and each other, by claiming we are rational. But rationality is pretty much a post hoc analysis of our feelings--or a justification. I say pretty much because how we rationalize does set us up for what we feel next. But it seems scientifically solid to say the species is mostly feels. To be otherwise, you'd have to know the mind works like, believe it, and be ever vigilant about how the world view you construct with each thought will impact you emotionally.


That sounds exhausting.

So, when you say quality of the character, that sounds like an emotional judgment. When you compare that to "our reactions" that sounds like the same thing. Or feels like it. I'm admitting my biases may blind me to line that separates those two evaluations.

When I talk about a supermajority, I mean things like the uncanny valley. We wouldn't even know it existed, IMO, if some people weren't a little less sensitive to its slope. They make a thing and it looks fine to them, but a supermajority of us find it feels wrong. Too lifelike, but not lifelike enough. It's not a well defined edge, but a zone where most of us humans are having similar reactions. So, while I can see how that might sound like a discussion of an objective property, or way of evaluating a character, it all subjective. It's just a widely shared subjective view point.

And that was way too much text to say the same thing I said in the first line.

[Gladstone]

I point to Clariten as a counter-argument to this. The strips we've been given concerning Clariten have been devoid of info of why Marten has gone from a string of failed relationships with Females to him going out with a Transgendered person. It's pretty much "I like you, let's go out." Okay, WHY?!?!?! Is he just sick and tired of being the whipping boy with females that he thinks maybe going non-traditional would be a better shot at happiness? Is it because his childhood with Veronica exposing him to alternative lifestyles kinda gave him a more open mind when it comes to such things? Or some other obtuse reason?   

Oh, right, because Marten realizing he likes Claire as a person and doesn't consider her trans status to be a deal-breaker or a barrier to a potential relationship with her is completely impossible and unrealistic, amiright?  It has to Mean Something, because there's NO POSSIBLE WAY Marten would want to go out with a trans woman unless he realized that he has absolutely no hope of ever dating another cis woman again.  Time to settle for second-best!  Level up!  Or level down!  Or something ridiculous like that!

*headdesk*

Edit: Neko_Ali said it better below.  Read that comment instead.

Also, comic.  Marten could've just said in the first place that he didn't want to get involved; that would've saved us several pages of discussion.  Harrumph.

[Neko_Ali]

I point to Clariten as a counter-argument to this. The strips we've been given concerning Clariten have been devoid of info of why Marten has gone from a string of failed relationships with Females to him going out with a Transgendered person. It's pretty much "I like you, let's go out." Okay, WHY?!?!?! Is he just sick and tired of being the whipping boy with females that he thinks maybe going non-traditional would be a better shot at happiness? Is it because his childhood with Veronica exposing him to alternative lifestyles kinda gave him a more open mind when it comes to such things? Or some other obtuse reason?   

This sounds more like projection to me. There has been absolutely no indication in comic that Marten is dating Claire because she's trans. He has never shown any indication of thinking of her as anything other than another girl in hs life. Putting forth the idea that there are (cis) females and trans females is a rather touchy thing. They work together, they hang out together, they went on a road trip and shared a room together. Mutual attraction developed. For some people, for whatever reason, knowing someone is trans is just a non-issue. Look at his initial reaction when Claire told him. It was basically. "Oh, okay cool. Let's head inside."

[wlewisiii]

You should have kept up with the Nope Marten...

[jwhouk]

I think projection is the number one cause of issues on this forum - but that may just be me... 

EDIT: Poor Marten. This time, make like Ardent and RUN.

[Aziraphale]

cesariojpn, for as long as I've been on these boards -- not as long as a lot of people, certainly, but long enough -- you've had a bug up your ass over Claire, and all the more so since she and Marten got together. What is your issue, exactly? Despite all evidence to the contrary (in the comic, in comments and information from other forum members, and a shit-ton of information available out in the world at large), you keep insisting that there's something "off" about Claire, and that there must, by extension, be some deep Freudian thing going on with Marten for being able to befriend and subsequently fall for someone, rather than finding them somehow squicky.

So it bears asking: What is so inexplicable to you that someone could fall in love with a trans* person? Put differently, what is your major malfunction?

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I point to Clariten as a counter-argument to this. The strips we've been given concerning Clariten have been devoid of info of why Marten has gone from a string of failed relationships with Females to him going out with a Transgendered person. It's pretty much "I like you, let's go out." Okay, WHY?!?!?! Is he just sick and tired of being the whipping boy with females that he thinks maybe going non-traditional would be a better shot at happiness? Is it because his childhood with Veronica exposing him to alternative lifestyles kinda gave him a more open mind when it comes to such things? Or some other obtuse reason?   

Why?

Why not.

Consider this:

1. A person who identifies as straight probably never thought about that in any detail. Society doesn't challenge straightness. If this person has had prior relationships, they are overwhelming likely to have had relationships with people who are biologically the opposite sex.

2. A person who identifies as straight can accept a transperson's gender without questioning it. I have never (no really) questioned a transperson's gender. The biggest issue I have, so far is one person who has been fairly random in they way the self refer so I'm not clear on whether this person is trans, CD, or gender queer. And I don't care, but it does lead to some pronoun mixing in my head which is a first for me.

3. SYLOGISM TIME!!!!!!!!! Should a person who meets conditions 1 and 2 enter a relationship with a transperson, that relationship overwhelmingly likely be after having a string of failed relationships with people who are biologically the opposite sex. (This bars the minority who have had a string of relationship that all ended in the death of their partner.)

It is, in fact, utterly unremarkable that Marten's first relationship with a transwoman follows a string of failed relationships with ciswomen. It's nearly tautological, akin to saying wet things are wet.

[Gladstone]

EDIT: Poor Marten. This time, make like Ardent and RUN.

Bad idea.  There's always a bigger fish.  Has George Lucas taught us nothing?

[Is it cold in here?]

Global Moderator Comment

There are many excellent reasons, scientific and humane both, to treat trans women as simply women. There are only bad reasons to do otherwise outside a doctor's examining room. In addition, there is a formal forum rule on the subject more specific than the general civility rule.

[TheEvilDog]

Aaaaaaaand now he's caught.
Aaaaaaaand Tai might end up disappointed.
Aaaaaaaand for some reason, I keep writing Asssssss.

[DonInKansas]

Marten is going to find Hannelore and ask for a lift to her dad's space station so that he can nope this from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[cesium133]

I keep writing Asssssss.

Buuuuuttts!

[ASB84]

I'm not sure I see the distinction. I don't claim there isn't one. I just don't see it.

Determining whether or not a character succeeds or fails from a narrative point of view is a more academic discussion. Reacting to the plot and talking about what the characters are doing is a more casual, "water cooler" type of conversation. That's how I'd sum up the distinction.

As I said, I'm not saying that a character's actions being understandable, sympathetic, or reasonable indicate a better quality of character. Of course, I would say that a well-written character will engage us, and as we watch the story unfold, our feelings and reactions are governed by the aforementioned criteria. It is, as I said, something that we decide almost instantly upon reading dialogue and seeing the action take place. It's only when we discuss it later, put those thoughts and opinions into words, that it becomes a lengthier breakdown.

When fiction has engaged us, it plays out before us or in our minds as though the events are actually taking place. We're focusing on the experience rather than the inner workings, though we may well have an awareness of them. Characters stimulate us and provoke reactions: "Man, he's a jerk. I want to see him get his comeuppance!", "I know she's technically the villain, but her backstory is pretty tragic, I actually feel kind of sorry for her", "He may technically be the hero, but he sure doesn't act like one!", "I don't agree with their methods, but you can understand how it got to this point", "Their intentions are good, but their actions are short-sighted"...and so on.

So, take Marten backing out of the room. One reaction is "Whoa, that wasn't cool, he just cut and run when a friend of his needed help and support." A counterpoint raised to that was essentially "Well, it's not fair to criticise him for that, what, do you expect him to be perfect?" My counterpoint to that is that no, we're not expecting perfection; however, we do recognise these scenarios, we have our own ideas of what's appropriate and what isn't, what we make of what we see, and how understandable, reasonable, and sympathetic it is to us...which may or may not gel with how agreeable we find the characters to be. In other words, "That wasn't the best thing to do, but I understand why he did it".

It has nothing to do with the construction of the character, whether it's failing or not. That's meta-level stuff. I'm talking about following along with the events in-universe, observing what's going on from behind the fourth wall as if it's actually happening, and having a reaction and opinion on the events that are taking place. That's the distinction.

[mary tyler murder]

Ugh, back to Tai being a rotten, selfish, emotionally abusive gutterdyke.

I know it's the character, she's just an awful person, as a character.

...I know, I know:

I can't say she's emotionally abusive. I'll take my ban now.

Moderator Comment

As you wish

Global Moderator Comment

So say we all.

[Tova]

And there Marten is, helping out the best he can. The backing away thing was, as so many people pointed out, purely for comedy. Marten isn't suddenly some kind of dickhead. And yet so many people who admitted it was uncharacteristic of Marten were so ready to believe it.

Who was it that said that the character haters were fond of basing their rants off limited data? Here is a classic example.

Ptptpttttth.jpg

Edit: oh, so we're going to move on to hating Tai now. Dear God.

[TheEvilDog]

I keep writing Asssssss.

Buuuuuttts!

Oh no! I have contracted the Butts Disease!
This was something of a sprung surprise, of that I can not lie.

[mary tyler murder]

There is a fine line between being cool with your friend dating your ex, and getting involved with their problems to the point that you are vicariously experiencing everything you hated about that relationship.

Actually, it's not a fine line at all, it's more of a canyon.

Yes, there is that. However, there is also the aspect of friendship that involves gritting your teeth and dealing with vicarious pain because, damn it, your friend is hurting and maybe, just maybe, you can make things better.

Remember: Tai didn't ask for help; Marten effectively offered it, sight unseen.

No, you're just failing to read the parts you don't want to read.

If you're playing "effectivelies" then she effectively demanded it by greeting Marten with a "bleh", and as every narcissist with a nasty attitude has demonstrated everywhere in the world since time immemorial, if he *hadn't* given into her demand she would have been a massive cunt to all and sundry the entire rest of the day.

I know there's this weird rule that some people are entitled to bleed other people emotionally dry, it's just, you know, a bullshit rule, believed in by bullshit people.

Still, Marten showed a little spirit for once. Here's hoping his learning curve continues on its upswing.

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

Marten is pretty much Tai's best friend.  She admitted a good while back that she really didn't have any deep friendships before meeting him, just casual acquaintances  and sex partners.  So she's going to ask him for help, even though she does realise it puts him in a bit of an awkward position.  The other people in her life either have limited experiences in dealing with relationships, or are dealing with their own problems.  Perhaps someone in her family could help, but so far we know nothing of them, or how she gets along with them.

[ElvisRevenge]

I just read Marten's dialogue in Bob Belcher's voice and it was toooooooo perrrrrrrfeeeeeeeect.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Still not seeing the distinction.

I had a friend from highschool who didn't like Fight Club because Disassociative Personality Disorder doesn't work like that. I don't really dig Big Bang Theory because the nerds aren't really realistic. Just caractures.

Whether a character succeeds or fails from a narative point of view is still a subjective assessment that's based on a reaction no different from "what that character did was uncool." How you feel about what see happens before you find the words to define that feeling. Whether that word is "unrealistic" or "uncool" is really just whim based on how you feel about analyzing the character or the narrative in that moment. That's why one person can come to the thread with a character response and another with a perspective on the framework of the story in which the event took place. Same coin, different sides. Could be twenty-five cents, or it could be a quarter of a dollar.

[jeph]

There is a fine line between being cool with your friend dating your ex, and getting involved with their problems to the point that you are vicariously experiencing everything you hated about that relationship.

Actually, it's not a fine line at all, it's more of a canyon.

Yes, there is that. However, there is also the aspect of friendship that involves gritting your teeth and dealing with vicarious pain because, damn it, your friend is hurting and maybe, just maybe, you can make things better.

Remember: Tai didn't ask for help; Marten effectively offered it, sight unseen.

No, you're just failing to read the parts you don't want to read.

If you're playing "effectivelies" then she effectively demanded it by greeting Marten with a "bleh", and as every narcissist with a nasty attitude has demonstrated everywhere in the world since time immemorial, if he *hadn't* given into her demand she would have been a massive cunt to all and sundry the entire rest of the day.

I know there's this weird rule that some people are entitled to bleed other people emotionally dry, it's just, you know, a bullshit rule, believed in by bullshit people.

Still, Marten showed a little spirit for once. Here's hoping his learning curve continues on its upswing.

Hey asshole quit throwing around words like "cunt" and "gutterdyke" on my website

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Sometimes you want to feed the troll, even though you shouldn't. Sometimes you want to call a mod. Sometimes you want to do both.

Then this happens and you just want to lead with a slow clap into a standing ovation.

[Gladstone]

I could use a cigarette right about now, and I don't even smoke.

[jwhouk]

EDIT: Poor Marten. This time, make like Ardent and RUN.

Bad idea.  There's always a bigger fish.  Has George Lucas taught us nothing?

Or, in Ardent and Gavia's case, bigger birds.

[jwhouk]

I'll take my ban now.
As you wish

It might be, it could be, IT IS!

I was wondering why I saw Jeph's avatar on here.

It's never a good thing to see Jeph's avatar on here.