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Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015  (Read 18746 times)

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #100 on: 15 May 2015, 03:37 »

You're assuming that Alice is correct because Alice says she's correct... Without bothering to try and explain the situation peacefully. Her immediate first resort after someone dared ask a legitimate question was to threaten physical violence and humiliation. (Because again, expressing concern over letting a firey demon walk around your city is a fair thing to do.)

You're looking at this strip in isolation. Alice already said that she had Gavia under control. Jeb's reaction to that was to disrespect her in such a way that made me think that this was an attempt to prove he is the town's alpha by picking a fight with her.

Besides: It doesn't matter if she's certain that's the only way to get through to him either: Using vast intellect to manipulate and push around weaker and stupider people is not an admirable trait. It's something bad guys do.

As I've already said above, Alice is not a nice person; Jeph's established that very clearly.

The fact that she is, optimistically, light-grey (what I consider a lawful neutral) does not mean that her ultimate motives are not good - she wants the town to be safe and peaceful. It's just that she doesn't feel the need to pursue that end through solely objectively nice means. Age, power and knowledge may have taught her contempt for the little mayfly lives over which she is self-appointed protector. Or, it's possible that she's just so emotionally detached from them that treating them like abstract psychology puzzles has become second nature to her.

It's quite possible that the strip will be partly about her learning to overcome this mindset.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2015, 03:42 by BenRG »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #101 on: 15 May 2015, 04:00 »

Just have Alice say something like "That was a miscommunication, she didn't intend to hurt anyone,"

But we don't really know that.  Gavia is now under Alice's thumb - that's what we know.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #102 on: 15 May 2015, 05:29 »

And with that, I think we've probably reached the agree-to-disagree point. Nobody's getting swayed here.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #103 on: 15 May 2015, 06:15 »

I think we have a cross between Discworld and Hancock going on here with Alice.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #104 on: 15 May 2015, 07:12 »

What I'm hearing is people giving Alice leeway because we know her better.

Which I mean, that's human, that's normal.

edit: my point does not invalidate Alice being correct or using the correct method. Or the incorrect one.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #105 on: 15 May 2015, 12:44 »

lawful neutral
Are you really lawful if you are the law?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #106 on: 15 May 2015, 12:46 »

lawful neutral

Are you really lawful if you are the law?

'Lawful' alignment is more of a case of favouring order over chaos.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #107 on: 15 May 2015, 13:31 »

My guess it she knows Jebediah fairly well, and he's one of those guys that occasionally needs reminding just whose 'Top Dog' around the place.

What I think Alice is really trying to do is stop anything happening before it starts by taking down the guy she knows is more likely to start anything than anyone else.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #108 on: 15 May 2015, 16:29 »

I think we have a cross between Discworld and Hancock going on here with Alice.
What does Herbie Hancock have to to with anything?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #109 on: 15 May 2015, 17:30 »

Hancock as in that terrible Will Smith movie?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #110 on: 15 May 2015, 17:44 »

lawful neutral
Are you really lawful if you are the law?

"You are the law" as in that terrible Sylvester Stalone movie?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #111 on: 15 May 2015, 17:50 »

As in the guy on the lower half of this:

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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #112 on: 15 May 2015, 23:17 »

Alice's face in the last panel looks as if she's hoping she gets to flex her muscles a bit...

You're looking at this strip in isolation. Alice already said that she had Gavia under control. Jeb's reaction to that was to disrespect her in such a way that made me think that this was an attempt to prove he is the town's alpha by picking a fight with her.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it quite that way before, but it does seem like that's what he's doing.

lawful neutral
Are you really lawful if you are the law?

How can you not be?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #113 on: 15 May 2015, 23:46 »

You're looking at this strip in isolation. Alice already said that she had Gavia under control. Jeb's reaction to that was to disrespect her in such a way that made me think that this was an attempt to prove he is the town's alpha by picking a fight with her.

Really? His question of 'And what if you blink and she's got the town afire again' seems pretty legitimate. Especially since, earlier that day we saw Gavia nearly provoked into a torch-the-world rage by a few kids with sticks. (And if it hadn't been for someone on standby watching her, she would have torched the place.) If Alice looks away, it's totally plausible that Gavia could torch the place pretty badly.

Further, keep in mind that Alice apparently doesn't seem to visit the town very often. Since the comic started, we've only seen her go to the town twice, and both times were with reluctance. I highly doubt that she really knows everyone in the town perfectly well enough to know exactly what to say in order to manipulate them to do what she wants.



As a thought experiment, if I ever worry that a main character is acting badly, I try and imagine their actions from the perspective of the other character, as though the story was written with that side-character as the protagonist. If the side character is still in the wrong, the main character is probably fine. Let's try that with Jeb.

Scene one, Jeb, (A local farmhand or town worker of somekind,) is minding his own business when a demonic monster attacks the town, seeking an apparently harmless blue alien who's wandering around town. The monster torches a majority of the town, and is stopped only when a more powerful being who neither lives in the town nor regularly spends time with the townsfolk steps in. This being, who also seems to have total unquestionable control over the town, then takes away the monster.

Two weeks later, the monster and the being return to town. When our hero questions the idea of bringing in a deadly monster back to town, he's not given a rational explanation or common courtesy, he's told that he simply has to trust the being, and if he doesn't then the being is going to beat the crap out of him and then publicly humiliate him for worrying about the town.


Now, thinking about that, where would a Jeb-centered story go? It's a pretty basic hero's journey setup. He's laughably weaker to Alice and Gavia both to the point of it being not just underdog but the underdog TO the underdog. His attempts to preemptively save his town get shot down, and the all-powerful government body tells him that he's not allowed to question them. If this were a story about Jeb, Alice would be the villain.




Also, re-reading the comic... Alice says she's been 'Watching over the town' for a really long time.

Um... Watching over for what? Until Ardent and Gavia, what threats have needed an immortal demigod watching over the town for hundreds or thousands of years? (An immortal demigod who gets snippy and aggressive when a twenty-something male questions her.)
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #114 on: 16 May 2015, 00:49 »

Until Ardent and Gavia, what threats have needed an immortal demigod watching over the town for hundreds or thousands of years?

Well, we don't know yet; doesn't mean we won't find out in due course.  The story's still only just beginning.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #115 on: 16 May 2015, 07:51 »

Be fair, there's enough things that we've seen in that forest already that would at least need to be known about a bit, with the implications of even more.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #116 on: 16 May 2015, 07:54 »



How can you not be?

Now *that* is a discussion you and my paladin should have.

But the shortest and easiest distinction I can make without going off-topic is that creators of the law that neither believe in it nor enforce it with any consistency or creed would be one example.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #117 on: 16 May 2015, 07:58 »

How can you not be?
Because if the law is basically "do as I say because I say it", that doesn't seem like an actual code of laws.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #118 on: 17 May 2015, 13:47 »

Until Ardent and Gavia, what threats have needed an immortal demigod watching over the town for hundreds or thousands of years?

Well, we don't know yet; doesn't mean we won't find out in due course.  The story's still only just beginning.

It's obvious isn't it.  She wears overalls/dungarees, fixes wind turbines, herds the livestock.  She's a farmer of humans.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #119 on: 17 May 2015, 14:12 »

That makes a lot of sense.  :psyduck: Herding the humans, building a barbed-wire carnivorous plant fence, guarding over the humans. She's overseeing a farm that makes Soylent Green.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #120 on: 17 May 2015, 14:15 »

But then the title of the strip would be "Alice's Farm".

Or maybe "Alice's Restaurant."

 :-D
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #121 on: 17 May 2015, 14:25 »

You can call a restaurant whatever you want!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #122 on: 17 May 2015, 14:41 »

Good point. I used to live in a city that had restaurants (good ones, even) that were named "Watts Grocery" and "George's Garage".
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #123 on: 17 May 2015, 14:42 »

But then the title of the strip would be "Alice's Farm".

Or maybe "Alice's Restaurant."

 :-D

Friendly reminder that it isn't "Alice's Grove" either, but "Alice Grove".
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #124 on: 17 May 2015, 19:07 »

Frankly, Alice is starting to remind me of that little boy in the Twilight Zone episode where he could read minds and everyone had to tiptoe around him or risk being "Sent to the cornfield."

I think possibly Gavia - more so than Ardent - will be the the one that helps Alice grow, if that's where this is going. Gavia has already pointed out the difference between letting kids roam free where she's from and why it seems weird to her in this world. Gavia has also proven introspective. She realizes that her plan of scaring the little locals in order to suss out Ardent's whereabouts was the wrong idea, she was frightened when she was going to fireball those weird cave animals, and she was pissed at the kids. I don't think Gavia is essentially evil so much as she is just impulsive. The difference between her and Ardent is that his impulsiveness (so far) is just relatively harmless and mildly obscene.

Alice is dangerous and she's openly condescending of the townsfolk. I would not be shocked if Gavia and Ardent were stranded there by the Praeses because they have gotten wind of a possible coup against Alice and they want to head that off at the pass.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #125 on: 17 May 2015, 19:17 »

It's obvious isn't it.  She wears overalls/dungarees, fixes wind turbines, herds the livestock.  She's a farmer of humans.

From what we've seen, the townsfolk are all simpletons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHJbSvidohg
Have a hard time thinking there's much interesting drama going on there. Going forward, it needs to be about Alice and wherever the two brats are from.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #126 on: 17 May 2015, 21:28 »

I was happy about this comic because I wanted to see what sort of things happen when somebody speaks back to Alice or hints that She Doesn't Know Best. And now I know.

It further establishes Alice's character as someone who is fundamentally not really that nice. When you've lived a long time, it can anger you when some short lived powerless little git question your judgement. I think part of Alice's problem is she rigidly sticks to lawful good principles and always gives people one chance after they make mistakes (note she wasn't mad at the other two guys with Jeb who seemed happy to take her word that Gavia was no threat and tried to stop Jeb sassing the witch), but deep down inside she loves flexing her muscles and is always secretly hoping people will be stupid enough to give her justification to do so. This would also explain why the townsfolk are so fucking terrified of Alice. The things Alice did when her judgement was questioned are probably legendary, and if she's as old as she claims they probably have a lot of legends about her.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #127 on: 18 May 2015, 01:26 »

There's an approximate quote I'm going to butcher here: "True strength lies in knowing when not to use it."

If Alice was really 'Strong' (at least by that definition,) she wouldn't need to go around threatening punks. From her perspective, she just threatened to beat the crap out of a toddler who was throwing a mild tantrum after getting stung by a bee. (Both in relative age, strength, and expected maturity.)

She shouldn't need threats at this point to emphasize her power. The fact that she uses them tells me that either:
A. She's a terrible person looking for an excuse to be cruel.
B. She's not particularly bright, or good at leadership.
C. She's not as powerful as everyone thinks and she claims.

We've seen evidence to the contrary for B and C.


Also, looking back, while it was framed as a "The nieve kids mistake innocuous things for threats and have to learn" moment, when Ardent and Gavia went into the forest, it was really Alice intentionally setting the both of them up for failure. Again, not something you should have to do if you're really as strong as she claims.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #128 on: 18 May 2015, 01:52 »

She shouldn't need threats at this point to emphasize her power. The fact that she uses them tells me that either:
A. She's a terrible person looking for an excuse to be cruel.
B. She's not particularly bright, or good at leadership.
C. She's not as powerful as everyone thinks and she claims.

We've seen evidence to the contrary for B and C.

Completely wrong.

A - A terrible person wouldn't do more than the bare minimum to help our her charges. It's pretty clear from the impromptu town meeting in volume 1 that she is a lot more active than that;

B - She's clearly a brilliant observer and deducer, given how she's come to reasonable conclusions about the wildlife and has learnt how to handle them;

C - After taking a lethal-force fire blast without a scratch, she punched her way through a personal forcefield.

Your problem, Mik, is that (by your own admission) you personally dislike (and feel threatened by) Alice's attitude to the degree that you have gained a personal investment in trying to prove publicly that she is a bad person. The rest of us don't have that investment or as strong emotions.

She's just got a violent nature. Additionally, she knows the right way to manipulate people's minds to get what she wants without actually having to use physical force. She's quite similar to the darker interpretation of Batman - Using plans and knowledge to defeat her adversaries and control her allies. It isn't nice and she's a pretty grey anti-hero if that's her way of doing things.

I agree with Wildroses that this story may be (at least in part) about her being taught by experience a better way of doing things.

I'll finish off with something Jeph said: "QC is fundamentally about a group of people who like each other. Alice Grove is about a group of people who don't like each other at all and it's refreshing in a way."
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #129 on: 18 May 2015, 09:58 »

Again, I'm saying that those three options are what I get just from how she handled Jeb. And, also again, I wasn't referring solely to physical strength. You're either missing or ignoring two key parts of my statement.

EDIT: Also, I feel I should point out that I'm not making these statements because I don't like Alice, these statements are a part of why I don't like Alice.

EDIT #2: Also, just because the characters don't like each other doesn't mean they shouldn't be likeable. That's not a good excuse. Nobody liked each other in The Avengers, but I still liked all of them.
« Last Edit: 18 May 2015, 10:27 by mikmaxs »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #130 on: 18 May 2015, 11:19 »

EDIT #2: Also, just because the characters don't like each other doesn't mean they shouldn't be likeable. That's not a good excuse. Nobody liked each other in The Avengers, but I still liked all of them.
Why on earth should characters in fiction be likeable?
There are a lot of celebrated works of literature/ other art where the characters are really unlikeable.
I have to admit that I usually like books/ films etc. more when there is at leats one character I can somewhat identify with (which doesn't mean they have to be likeable either), but I know a lot of people for whom even that's very different. Stories can become much more interesting if characters are not likeable.

Also, while Alice is certainly not universally likeable, I still like her -- not in the sense that I think we'd be best friends if we met, but she's an interesting and strong character.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #131 on: 18 May 2015, 14:38 »

Unless I'm forgetting a post, I'm pretty sure mik never said they didn't like Alice Grove, just that they didn't like Alice Grove*.

*I'm assuming that's her last name until canonically told it's not.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #132 on: 18 May 2015, 15:31 »

Oh, I never meant to imply mikmaxs said they didn't like the comic; I just disagree with the implication of the quote cited by me that an author needs an excuse to make his characters unlikeable; or that unlikeable characters are in themselves a deficit in a story.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #133 on: 18 May 2015, 17:00 »

Fair enough. I dunno, I think when I think of a character as "likable" I think of it as a character whose actions make some sort sense, even if I don't agree with those actions. I can relate to why they do those actions, even if I wouldn't ever do them. I may not like them, but I consider them likable because I get them, get why somebody would like them.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #134 on: 18 May 2015, 19:22 »

All right, is Alice more likable now or not?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #135 on: 18 May 2015, 20:13 »

Oh gosh. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jeb's not complaining.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #136 on: 18 May 2015, 21:28 »

Alice knows her people


Jeb's cute when he blushes.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #137 on: 18 May 2015, 23:11 »

I think I should say here that most of my criticisms of Alice Grove only work (At least in my opinion,) because Alice Grove is a comedy, which is heavily working against the drama and characters. It's hard to tell a dramatic story when you're constantly telling jokes. It's hard to laugh when the main character is a jerk. (Unless the story constantly gives them their comeuppance, which you can't do when your main character is Superwoman in a world of paper people.)


As for tonight's comic: It... doesn't really hurt, but I don't think any more of Alice either. It just cements her character as a bit of an all-controlling bully. 'Do what I say without question, I'll boost your reputation and get you laid. Dare to question me in the slightest and I'll beat the crap out of your helpless self to humiliate you.' It's better than just the stick without the carrot, but not by much.

At least for my money, there's very little that Alice can do in a single comic, or even a half dozen comics, that will make me forget that she threatened someone who was totally helpless against her for being worried for the safety of himself and his town.


If the comic IS going to be an arc about her learning and growing, it better get started soon because we're 9 months in and I haven't really seen any start of her learning yet.


Oh, I never meant to imply mikmaxs said they didn't like the comic; I just disagree with the implication of the quote cited by me that an author needs an excuse to make his characters unlikeable; or that unlikeable characters are in themselves a deficit in a story.

I'd like to expand on this a bit, since it's an important part of storytelling in general.

First off: When I say 'Likeable' I mean 'A character that I enjoy watching.' (Or reading about, or hearing, etc.) A lot of characters are not likeable in that I would hate to be around them in real life, (Jayne Cobb from Firefly comes to mind, for example,) but they are still caught under 'Likeable' the way I'm going to use the word here. Meanwhile, characters that are interesting or driving don't have to be 'Likeable' to be good. (Later seasons of Walter White from Breaking Bad come to mind.)

Characters don't need to be likeable to be good characters, and compelling and interesting stories can be written around them. Empathy is nigh-universally required to one extend or another, but likeability isn't. However, it is incredibly difficult to write an unlikeable character with a goal so that they are still interesting and compelling, since if I don't like a character, it becomes difficult to care if they succeed or not.

It's also extremely hard to write characters who have no explicit or clear goals, because if they aren't doing anything of substance it is hard to care what they are doing. Without a goal, it's very easy for a character to become dull and boring.

Alice is currently doing both. Unlike Gavia or Ardent who both have somewhat of a goal goal, (Get home and/or Meet the natives to have fun,) she just wants not to do anything. Her ideal day involves Gavia and Ardent not doing anything while she doesn't do anything either. She's also not particularly likeable, for reasons I've gone over before.

For these reasons, I simply can't care about anything she is doing, and when she does something bad it becomes a lot more noticeable and detractive to her character.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #138 on: 18 May 2015, 23:55 »

As I said before, Alice knows her people. I mean terrifyingly well. As in, she knows who has a crush on whom just by reading their body language! That's what happened here by the way. The reason why Alice needs to intervene with Shelley's family is because Jeb isn't normally the sort that they would want to court their daughter.

Mik, seriously, when have we ever seen Alice 'doing nothing'? The first time we saw her, she was hard at work for the community and, apart from food and sleep, we haven't seen her stop yet!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #139 on: 19 May 2015, 00:00 »

As I said before, Alice knows her people. I mean terrifyingly well. As in, she knows who has a crush on whom just by reading their body language! That's what happened here by the way. The reason why Alice needs to intervene with Shelley's family is because Jeb isn't normally the sort that they would want to court their daughter.

Mik, seriously, when have we ever seen Alice 'doing nothing'? The first time we saw her, she was hard at work for the community and, apart from food and sleep, we haven't seen her stop yet!
Doing nothing out of the ordinary. She's working her day job as far as she's concerned. She hasn't tried anything even remotely challenging, she has no long-term goals she's working for other than 'Town maintenance', and she's not got any driving motivations. She's totally content with her lot in life. Obviously she's doing something in the literal sense of the words, but it's not anything major or important as far as she's concerned. If this story were about a plumber, we'd be watching him fix pipes for three hours as routine repairs for an apartment building with no real difficulty.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #140 on: 19 May 2015, 00:03 »

After millennia on the job, I think that you'd be hard-pressed to describe anything as being not just another day!

[EDIT]
Just an additional thought: I don't think that this is just a job to Alice, even though she's been doing it long enough that it has become something close to a reflexive behaviour to her. My proof? Why tell Jeb about Shelly? This isn't a carrot or even a sugar lump for being a good boy. She's already got what she wants and, if she's as detached and oppressive as some want to believe, she has no particular reason to care about reinforcing the lesson in such a manner. However, she pauses and, not only points Jeb in the right direction but actually makes it clear she's going to make it her business to smooth the road.

This is just how Alice is. The comparison with Sir Terry Pratchet's character Esme 'Granny' Weatherwax is very clear. Both are somewhat antisocial and make a big show of being misanthropes. However, when it comes down to it, they both care for their charges on a deep and personal level and never miss a chance to help when it is presented. Please note the latter clause 'when it is presented' - Neither Granny nor Alice strike me as the sorts to go busy-bodying about, looking for opportunities to interfere. However, if they are in the right place and time, they'll take action. We have yet to see something similar to an event in one Discworld novel, where Granny actually challenges Death over the fate of a baby, using her own life as a stake (Death cheats on her behalf, but that's just Him). It will be interesting to see if Jeph chooses to put in a scene like that.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2015, 02:59 by BenRG »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #141 on: 19 May 2015, 02:42 »

I think I should say here that most of my criticisms of Alice Grove only work (At least in my opinion,) because Alice Grove is a comedy, which is heavily working against the drama and characters. It's hard to tell a dramatic story when you're constantly telling jokes. It's hard to laugh when the main character is a jerk. (Unless the story constantly gives them their comeuppance, which you can't do when your main character is Superwoman in a world of paper people.)
Yeah, that I agree with, although I don't see Alice as a jerk. But yes, in a comedy, her character (and others as well) feels out of place and exaggerated. I, for my part, wish Alice Grove would go more into the serious, story-driven direction instead of the one with the bad butt and tail jokes -- I've commented on this before.

Quote
First off: When I say 'Likeable' I mean 'A character that I enjoy watching.' (Or reading about, or hearing, etc.) A lot of characters are not likeable in that I would hate to be around them in real life, (Jayne Cobb from Firefly comes to mind, for example,) but they are still caught under 'Likeable' the way I'm going to use the word here. Meanwhile, characters that are interesting or driving don't have to be 'Likeable' to be good. (Later seasons of Walter White from Breaking Bad come to mind.)
Ah, fair enough -- I apparently understood you wrong. As I said, I also way prefer stories where I can relate to the characters somewhat,or where I enjoy watching them, even if I don't like them; and for me this is kind of the case with Alice. But then I could never watch Breaking Bad, for example, because the character is someone I absolutely can't relate to. I guess that's personal taste.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #142 on: 19 May 2015, 06:16 »

Alice does understand how people tick. Jeb is not going to be brooding on how to get revenge on mean old Alice for squashing him so thoroughly as Alice has given him something far more interesting to think about. Go on date with pretty girl who likes you is a far better prospect than get revenge on dangerous village witch.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #143 on: 19 May 2015, 12:37 »

Some thoughts, in order of them crossing my mind:

1) I'm not so sure Alice Grove is a comedy

2) The pace only feels glacial. Go back and read the whole thing again, then consider Alice has been there millennia. Whatever few weeks or months we've witnessed in-comic time are nothing to her. (Think Ents (considering the aroboreal themes here, it's probably pretty darn appropos)) ANY change to her routine, like bringing aliens to town instead of smiting them herself and being done with them, will be much faster change to her than we think. I'd recommend re-setting your expectations accordingly.

3) With a only twice-a-week update schedule, we're even more exposed to time compression. Have patience with Jeph and let him tell this story the way he needs to.

4) I said it in a previous MCDT and I'll say it again... we still know virtually nothing about Alice's challenges, limitations, long-term goals, or her motivations, we don't even know if they're present or not present.
As such, projecting your expectations into criticisms of her will show you a lot more about yourself than about her as a character or this story as a whole :D
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #144 on: 19 May 2015, 13:55 »

As a response to that, FunkyTuba:
1, if Alice Grove isn't a comedy, then Jeph needs to STOP TELLING JOKES. I will believe that it's not a comedy when it stops acting like one.

For 2-4, I have only one response for the lot: You write a story with your limitations in mind. When you write a book, you don't rely on pictures and sounds to tell the story. When you write a movie, you don't rely on words to carry you through. When you write a twice-weekly updating webcomic, you don't use the update schedule as an excuse for bad pacing.

A slow update schedule would work with QC, because the plot is minimal compared to the character interactions and humor, but if you want to have a heavy plot, you need to either update more quickly (which isn't an option) or write it in such a way that things don't move at a glacial pace. (Alternately, Jeph could only update once a month with a lot more content per update). We should know something about our character once we're nine months in.

For example, JL8: It's a webcomic that updates maaaybe once a week, but more likely once or twice a month. (It's a loose schedule.) E ery update moves the plot along pretty far, though, and it never lets humor get in the way of plot. It tells jokes occasionally, but not as a staple. (I don't think there's been any major funny moments in a few months, in fact.) JL8 has all the same limitations as Alice Grove, but actually deals with them effectively.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #145 on: 19 May 2015, 14:04 »

I don't know how to respond other than to say that I'm happy with what Jeph's providing (for free) and as such I look forward to him telling Alice's story his way.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #146 on: 19 May 2015, 14:46 »

I don't know how to respond other than to say that I'm happy with what Jeph's providing (for free) and as such I look forward to him telling Alice's story his way.
Not exactly for free. He only started Alice Grove after reaching a stretch goal on Kickstarter. Admittedly it's a one-time payment, and not everyone who reads Alice Grove had to pay, but not totally for free.

That being said, I don't like the 'It's free' excuse to dismiss criticisms. The point of criticisms is so that 1, people can share opinions and 2, so that creators (Both the creator of the content and other creators,) can learn and improve. My opinions are not the only way to write a story, not by a longshot, but at least as far as I can tell they have solid logic behind them and are somewhat applicable. Following my advice won't ever guarantee a perfect story, and going against it won't guarantee a bad one, but I think that my criticisms are legitimate and potentially helpful to anyone looking to write a similar work.

Also, I'm not saying that Alice Grove is bad, just that it could be better. I'm still interested in Ardent and Gavia's dilemma, and at least for the time being I'm still curious about what's going on with the Praeses. That being said, I'd enjoy it a lot more if the pacing and comedy weren't crippling the plot.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #147 on: 19 May 2015, 15:09 »

The pacing is a fair criticism (it doesn't take away my enjoyment of the comic but your mileage may vary), but I don't think it's fair to say the comedy is crippling the plot. Then again, I do think it's a comedy, or at least that comedy is one of the genres, just like QC.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #148 on: 19 May 2015, 15:13 »

The pacing is a fair criticism (it doesn't take away my enjoyment of the comic but your mileage may vary), but I don't think it's fair to say the comedy is crippling the plot. Then again, I do think it's a comedy, or at least that comedy is one of the genres, just like QC.
The comedy thing is a lot more YMMV than the pacing, I'd agree. I feel like the comedy works better in QC though, because the plot isn't nearly as complex. (Also, again YMMV, but I feel like deep character studies don't work as well when you're constantly telling jokes. I wouldn't have near as much of an issue with Alice's being a bully if it wasn't saturated in punchlines.)
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Re: Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015
« Reply #149 on: 19 May 2015, 15:15 »

I don't think AG is that much more complex than QC, it just takes place in an unfamiliar setting so it seems so.
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