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Turns up and tells Faye she'll fight her to protect Marten from her!

At the Library, insists on routing all conversation with Marten through Faye

Toe-curling unconvincing attempt at persuading Marten she has a 'more important' person too

Writes depressing music about abandonment that is later a hit for Deathmole

Pretends it never happened and then bursts into tears at random intervals

Turns up and is mean to Faye who (surprisingly) bursts into tears and confesses all her dark history

[anahata]

I guess a lot of this is from Jeph's own well-documented experience.
No, I don't think Faye's going to top herself, but there could still be some drama, upheaval, revelation or breakthough.

since she's survived, thanks to her friend, she can hopefully start to come to terms with both her pain, and an understanding of her father's death. Once she can let that go, then her healing can truly begin.

That's certainly what I would like to happen.

[BenRG]

No, I don't think Faye's going to top herself, but there could still be some drama, upheaval, revelation or breakthough.

Personally, I think that Faye isn't the only one who will have a revelation/breakthrough.

The thing is that Faye likes to project an air of strength and independence and her friends respect that. They respect that she wants to be able to deal with her own demons and confront her own problems in her own way and in her own time. What Faye is heading towards admitting here is that she can't do this on her own. She needs her friends help and in a lot more intensive way than the semi-detached moral support that they currently offer.

Faye wasn't ready to accept this before, making such close support difficult to offer. However, I do think that she's now approaching readiness to accept just how severe her need is for such help.

I've mentioned this a few weeks back when Hanners vented to Marigold. Hannelore cannot be the only one to give Faye the hands-on close support that she needs or she'll be overwhelmed herself. That means that Marten and Dora's lives will probably be interrupted a bit because of Faye's situation but, IMO at least, that is what she needs right now. Just until she's got enough of a foundation of her own to be able to confront the matter more independently.

[Shteevie]

I just wanted to pop in quick and give Jeph some major props for the continued improvement and display of skill in the more complex poses and view angles that he's using with his characters in the last few weeks. Many more frames are set not as profiles or as 100% forward poses, and the work looks really good. It adds believability, emotion, and a great deal of subtext to the comics and I think it makes them even more enjoyable to read. No one ever accused Jeph of not caring about his characters, but to continue to work on improvement this many years in shows a level of commitment not many artists show. Kudos, Jeph.

As to the storyline of late, it hits home for lots of us. Faye is going through stuff I personally had to deal with at a younger age, and it's comforting to see her have a Marten and a Hannelore to lean on. Whatever happens between her and Dora in the long run [not everything broken can be repaired], I do feel like there is an honesty and grace that is coming through in the writing and the portrayal of the characters.

Carry on, please!

[DSL]

My first thought on reading Faye's semi-wham line was this: She's being manipulative again. It's a trait of hers, especially toward Marten, and always around the theme of "Don't Leave Me."

Whether she has some emotional/psychological need that's filled by "Marty" being in her orbit or whether he's good for half the rent on what looks to be a pretty sweet apartment for the local market, she wants him in that orbit. Juuusst outside the atmosphere, mind, but in orbit nonetheless.

She's a fierce, protective friend; that's (IMO, of course) her endearing trait. She's also manipulative, a trait I find revolting in real-world humans (though props to Jeph for depicting it oh so well).

[Wildroses]

Gah. There are too many possibilities for that last line. Does Faye finally understand her Dad because he was an alcoholic or because he decided death was less painful alternative to life? Roll on Friday.

I'm inclined to think the latter as Faye and her mother's confusion about why he killed himself seemed genuine, but there is always the possibility of denial.

[Zebediah]

I have been there, Faye.  I'm not an alcoholic, but I have certainly been in the place where every possible road ahead looks like hopeless bullshit and the temptation to take the shortest road is strong.

Faye has something I didn't. She has Marten. She'll get through this.

[sluthy]

Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago, but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?

[dexeron]

Panel 4 today.  It's a minor thing, but that angle/pose really points out how Jeph's art style has improved over the years.  I know someone else already mentioned it above, but I wanted to echo that sentiment.

Also, I want to second the motion that yesterday's Claireface was one of the greatest Clairefaces of all time.

[Is it cold in here?]

I really hope the author doesn't have something awful in mind for 3000, hopefully the heavy handed foreshadowing rules out faye hurting herself.

*shudder*, that would be harder to read than the recent Gunnerkrigg Court episodes.

Besides what you pointed out, another reason for hope is something Faye's therapist observed. Faye's got a core of inner strength to draw on. That doesn't fix depression but it does mean the depression has to leach away all of her will power before it can finish its job.

[Patternsix]

I totally get what Faye is doing and why.
(yes I know it is a comic still I can't help by sympathize with this characters as if they were real)
(no I don't have many real world friends most of my friends are tethered to me by an invisible thread through the interweb)

For me Drugs (Marijuana) and Alcohol provide a safe place where I like to hide from the world when I get scared at the idea that I'm not the kid I still think I am, but an actual Adult.

The whole Faye story arc is really hitting close to home.

Thankfully I reserve my "Holy $#!+ I'm an Adult" freak-outs to the weekends and never allow it to flow into my professional life.  I don't know what I would do if the two blurred and my hiding place was taken into the workplace.

The last panel about her Dad was what brought an actual tear to my eye as I recalled my own childhood of my own Father and his struggle with Alcohol.  Thankfully he sobered up before he died and I actually saw the man my Mother fell in love with was a kind gentle loving man who I wish I could one day become.

So Damn you Jeph I do love you man but damn you for touching me a little too close to home.

I don't know how some people would feel but maybe offer up some helpful info for anyone who might need help with Drugs or Alcohol .. I don't mean for you to step on a soapbox or anything but seriously man I feel like you are knocking on my window trying to get my attention.

[themacnut]

Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago, but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?

Faye was not at all thrilled with the prospect of taking antidepressants, which was why Dr. Corinne didn't prescribe them. I strongly suspect Faye didn't want to take them because she felt she'd just be replacing one chemical dependency (alcohol) for another. If I'm right, then there's little reason to think she'll feel any differently now.

[A Duck]

Corinne almost prescribed Faye antidepressants eight IRL years ago, but went the natural route instead. Who knows if they would've helped, or if she'll consider them now?

Faye was not at all thrilled with the prospect of taking antidepressants, which was why Dr. Corinne didn't prescribe them. I strongly suspect Faye didn't want to take them because she felt she'd just be replacing one chemical dependency (alcohol) for another. If I'm right, then there's little reason to think she'll feel any differently now.

IIRC, Faye also completely stopped seeing Corinne after a while. If she kept coming back, maybe she would be taking anti-depressants at this point.

[Siriku]

Faye's storyline has hit home for me as I have an addiction (that isn't alcohol or drugs, but is still quite life altering and affects my relationships in a really negative way). Every single paragraph, especially wondering what is left at the end, is something I think about on a daily basis.

The answer to that, I think, is friends, and distractions. Time lowers the chances of relapse, although as a recent relapse after a long period of time (last night in fact, so waking up to this comic specifically was quite significant) has shown me, doesn't negate it entirely. But I think with Marten around, Faye will shape up as time goes on. She's got the required level of fight and sass.

[TomMacaulay]

Constant reader but never expected to post,

I'm British and we have a slightly different way of looking at drinking: I'm always a little aghast at how easily the term 'alcoholism' is bandied about in the States. This being said, panels 2 and 4 are perhaps the best short description of such I have read in many years- uncannily accurate (with maybe a side order of panic attacks but that might just be me).

Please carry on the good work.

[gprimr1]

Perhaps a bit Mccab, but I've always wondered at the idea of alcohol making people not care or feel better. One of the reasons I don't drink much anymore is alcohol just amplified whatever I was feeling inside. It never cancelled out the depressive feeings, just made them 10x worse.

[Method of Madness]

Same, which is why I don't drink unless I'm happy for the most part.

(Also, Mccab = macabre, right?)

[chaospersonified]

Perhaps a bit Mccab, but I've always wondered at the idea of alcohol making people not care or feel better. One of the reasons I don't drink much anymore
is alcohol just amplified whatever I was feeling inside. It never cancelled out the depressive feeings, just made them 10x worse.

It does both, in my experience, depending on the quantity I drink, and how I already feel going in. If it's just me and a bottle of whiskey, alone with my thoughts, it's terrible, but give me things to do, something to write on, or a people to talk to, I'm suddenly a happy drunk. The depression hits in the morning, when you're left alone again with the sense you're lesser than other people because you needed alcohol to be happy for a few hours.

That's the morning after, though; that's hell on just about everyone. While you're drunk, it just comes down to your brain's chemistry, I think. Are you a happy, angry, mopey drunk, and you seem to be a sad one.

[chaospersonified]

Alcohol is literally a depressant, it just slows down the things that make some people sad, and offers an escape from the daily reality of neurotic overthinking for those of us with that issue.

[emilygrrl]

Gah. There are too many possibilities for that last line. Does Faye finally understand her Dad because he was an alcoholic or because he decided death was less painful alternative to life? Roll on Friday.

I'm inclined to think the latter as Faye and her mother's confusion about why he killed himself seemed genuine, but there is always the possibility of denial.

I got the impression it was both. I think she just realized her dad was an alcoholic (remember him sneaking around with his drinks? His shared "secret" with Faye?), and simultaneously realized why he committed suicide.

...as for Faye's mom, she may have been aware that her husband had a problem with drinking (hence her discouraging him from doing so), but have genuinely not realized he was an alcoholic. Either that, or was in denial.

[Legasher]

I'm sorry for posting before lurking for a while, but I only found this forum because I wanted to find an explanation. I found all the posts from the day she fell of the wagon saying "This fits an alcoholic/this doesn't" but it still, after this many comics, feels like a leap to calling her that. She is solving her issue with Angus with alcohol, which is bad, but it's not the only way she solves her problems is it? She can enjoy herself with her friends without it, even though she enjoys it. She got fired from her job for using it as a coping mechanism only days after the breakup, the very first time she had ever had an alcohol related incident at Coffee of Doom. I can fully understand that having done so was bad, but for that one incident to say "clearly you have a problem," seems way off. In this case, Faye says she feels like more of a failure for drinking. Isn't that unnecessary? I've struggled with suicide and depression since I was a kid. About two years ago I had a "breakup" with the church I was immensely involved with in which I've said the exact same lines as Faye about thinking I was stronger than I was and knowing the fault was mine and not theirs.  Last year I got arrested and charged with an alcohol related misdemeanor. But for all the failure I feel, I don't let myself consider drinking a failure, because it's not my only coping mechanism, and it makes it a lot easier to enjoy being around people at all, when I might wander the Pit alone in my apartment without it. I can and have (and have legally been forced to) gone many months without it without feeling like I need it - I just can't go out as much because the social anxiety is too much.

Faye wants to stop the wheel a bit. She's just been through a really hard life event, which also led to an immensely depressing feeling of failure. She needs to learn to cope with this another way, but why is coping with it the wrong way once enough to label her as something for the rest of her life? She's handled alcohol normally plenty of times, why can't she learn to do so again? I understand that addiction is a disease and that addicts can't learn to use it correctly, the question I can't get over is: Besides the past two weeks in comic time, what evidence do we have that this is an Addiction, rather than an Unfortunate Event caused by a poor choice?

Honestly, I was at lunch at work when I read this strip and started crying at the last panel because that's the worst realization when you realize that you understand, and sometimes even agree with someone you know having killed themselves. This one hits really close to home, so I can't really help but see this from her side. I need help understanding the other side.

[emilygrrl]

I'm sorry for posting before lurking for a while, but I only found this forum because I wanted to find an explanation. I found all the posts from the day she fell of the wagon saying "This fits an alcoholic/this doesn't" but it still, after this many comics, feels like a leap to calling her that. She is solving her issue with Angus with alcohol, which is bad, but it's not the only way she solves her problems is it? She can enjoy herself with her friends without it, even though she enjoys it. She got fired from her job for using it as a coping mechanism only days after the breakup, the very first time she had ever had an alcohol related incident at Coffee of Doom. I can fully understand that having done so was bad, but for that one incident to say "clearly you have a problem," seems way off. In this case, Faye says she feels like more of a failure for drinking. Isn't that unnecessary? I've struggled with suicide and depression since I was a kid. About two years ago I had a "breakup" with the church I was immensely involved with in which I've said the exact same lines as Faye about thinking I was stronger than I was and knowing the fault was mine and not theirs.  Last year I got arrested and charged with an alcohol related misdemeanor. But for all the failure I feel, I don't let myself consider drinking a failure, because it's not my only coping mechanism, and it makes it a lot easier to enjoy being around people at all, when I might wander the Pit alone in my apartment without it. I can and have (and have legally been forced to) gone many months without it without feeling like I need it - I just can't go out as much because the social anxiety is too much.

Faye wants to stop the wheel a bit. She's just been through a really hard life event, which also led to an immensely depressing feeling of failure. She needs to learn to cope with this another way, but why is coping with it the wrong way once enough to label her as something for the rest of her life? She's handled alcohol normally plenty of times, why can't she learn to do so again? I understand that addiction is a disease and that addicts can't learn to use it correctly, the question I can't get over is: Besides the past two weeks in comic time, what evidence do we have that this is an Addiction, rather than an Unfortunate Event caused by a poor choice?

Honestly, I was at lunch at work when I read this strip and started crying at the last panel because that's the worst realization when you realize that you understand, and sometimes even agree with someone you know having killed themselves. This one hits really close to home, so I can't really help but see this from her side. I need help understanding the other side.

I think this week's storyline put that debate to bed.

The fundamental difference is in how easy it is to stop.

Alcohol was problematic for me, in that I suffer from depression, and alcohol triggers that badly, even half a glass of wine once left me feeling suicidal for a week. However, I never felt a need to drink. I only drank once in a while, and once I made the decision to quit, it was easy for me not to go back to drinking. Ergo, I am not an alcoholic.

My wife, on the other hand, long before we met, drank daily, attempted multiple times to stop (even relapsed after rehab one time), and couldn't — in the end, she always had to come back to the drink. It took another stint in rehab (this time a supportive and female-only rehab) and AA to keep her sober. She's now 8 years sober, and I am so fucking proud of her for that, because I know what a challenge that is for her, even today.

Faye's story reflects my wife's. Her behaviour this week just proved it. Yeah, she's definitely an alcoholic.

[Neko_Ali]

This is not the first time Faye has been shown drinking to cope with stress. In fact, drinking and violence are her primary ways to deal with stress most times. She's always been seen as a 'hard drinker' to her friends. Nor is this the first time she's been drinking at work 'Emergency bourbon'. All of that put together wouldn't say that is an alcoholic. Probably that she drinks to much, but she is young and in a college town, so that's not unusual. It may well have contributed to how bad she crashed when she did have to go to the hospital. Being a habitual drinker her tolerance to alcohol is likely quite high. So she would have to drink a lot to make the noises in her head stop for a while. In any case, it is a horrible and self destructive way to avoid problems for a while, on all counts.

What really pushed it over the edge for many people was her behavior after the breakup. Trying to stay drunk constantly. Lying to friends about how much she is drinking. Hiding and sneaking drinks at work. And now a craving, a need to drink not to feel going, but to avoid feeling bad for a little while. Those are all signs of addiction.

[Zebediah]

The thing that most  points to Faye being an alcoholic is her inability to stop. To give some contrast: I am not an alcoholic. I can drink as much, or as little, as I choose, and lately I choose for that to be very little. When I was Faye's age I drank way more than was good for me, but was always able to stop - it's just that at times I chose not to stop.

Faye can't seem to make that choice. She decided to stop, then relapsed quickly. She knows she needs to stop, but can't. This is no longer about trying to use alcohol to escape her problems - alcohol has become the problem that is destroying her life. That's the definition of an alcoholic.

[Is it cold in here?]

They could be wrong, of course, but her friends have been alarmed before this.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1108
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=981

BTW, over in RELATE there's a thread about alcoholism that is getting less traffic than it deserves. Discussions and experiences posted in the WCDT will be harder for people to find later. I haven't done a topic split since the posts here are so relevant to the comic.

[AprilArcus]

see also http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=808

[Method of Madness]

Wow, I always forget how early Angus showed up. It took him what, three or four real life years to go from "that guy" to "boyfling". About the same amount of time as it took for him to go from "boyfling" to "ex", actually.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

It's easy to miss when Angus first shows up. He's very much like a background character. Sometimes I wonder if he's a background character who got a radical promotion.

[Method of Madness]

I hope we see him again.

[jwhouk]

(reads new strip)

(stands up)

(applauds)

[CaptainFish]

Woo! Go Faye!

Now it's just time for the follow-through, but that baseline resolve is a lot of the battle, I imagine.

[Kugai]

Way to go Faye!

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

This strip also pushes the question of why Faye's dad killed himself back into the "Jeph isn't going to tell us" box.

[chaospersonified]

This strip also pushes the question of why Faye's dad killed himself back into the "Jeph isn't going to tell us" box.

It's not important. It's a thing that happened, and it informs Faye's character, and the characters of the few she's let know.

Pretty sure it's rare to get information about why someone killed themselves years later anyway; call it realism if it helps

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Also, Faye doesn't know. He left no note and didn't tell anyone that we know of. Without some serious Dues Ex we're not going to find out soon.

[Near Lurker]

Literally, almost - it would pretty much take either some kind of time window or a visit from Pluto.

[MrNumbers]

Heart attack averted.

[jwhouk]

She may have an idea, though, that depression runs in the family. She knows mom had it.

[Timemaster]

So much for my predictions for the rest of this week and the next...

I have to admit something: the only thing right now that impresses me more than the QC episodes of the last days is this forum and the insightful postings of it´s members concerning addiction and alcoholism. I´ve never been addicted to substances, so it is quite difficult for me to really relate to Faye´s problems. But in the past days I´ve read so much about this topic here, written by people who have been there, who have struggeled (and are still struggeling) with substance abuse. And by doing so I´ve learned more about it in the past few days than in my entire 46 years before.

So I wish to express my respect to everyone here. Thank you very much.

On the other hand I kinda feel that there is only very little I can contribute to this discussion. You are expressing thoughts so insightful, that everything I could come up with has mostly already been said before, and much better than I would ever be able to, not beeing a native english speaker. But that´s OK for me, I am enjoying reading the discussion here right now very much.

So Jeph wrapped up a lot of the stuff I was expecting next week in the last two episodes. Staight to the point, no pussyfooting around the issue. Very well done. And now there will be a week of guest comics. I wonder if Jeph will pick up the conversation between Faye and Marten after his vacation or if he will get straight to the conseqences Faye´s decision wil have on her life? There is a whole lot of possibilities how Jeph can handle this situation and were he can take us from here.
Also he has drawn impressingly good portraits of Faye´s face in the past episodes. Someone said it before, he has shown her from various different angles, using perspective to underline her emotions. It´s not only showing her from different sides, it actually looks like as if she is moving her head as she speaks. This expresses her uncertaincy and emotional turmoil and makes the things she says even more intense. Very good work. Just take a look at the small reflections of light in her glasses.

One week. One goddamn f***ing week!
How are we supposed to hold up for so long?

TM

[BenRG]

I'm more and more convinced that this arc has been very autobiographical and personal to Jeph. I'm fairly sure that Faye here is saying something that he said or at least thought, maybe around the time of the hand incident.

That said, this isn't over and dealing with this will need much more than Faye's usual anger at the world.

[Indrium]

Well, first post. Can I admit that I cried?

I've been reading since at least 1500 posts ago. I just spent 15 minutes trying to find the exact strip, but can't. I'd know it if I saw it.

Not exactly the same context with alcohol, but the emotions here are spot on. I've been there so hard. Thanks Jeph. It's really cathartic to read this kind of thing.

Man I read the text and started crying again. So powerful. Holy shit.

Thank you.

[chaospersonified]

Also, Faye doesn't know. He left no note and didn't tell anyone that we know of. Without some serious Dues Ex we're not going to find out soon.

Is what I was saying.

Faye's mom might come up to show support, maybe she could provide information. Maybe there was a reason she was so against Faye's dad drinking, maybe Faye was treated to more milkshakes towards the end than she recalls, but I'd be seriously surprised if any new information surfaced after so long

[ZoeB]

Anger is an energy. It can be transmuted into unreasonable compassion, unreasonable determination, unreasonable patience and charity, and an indomitable determination to never give up, never give in.

Without such transmutation, it can end in becoming bitter and twisted. Self-destructive.

Faye is not her father. She's angrier. But knows the trick of transmutation.

 

[Thrillho]

Loving the PiL reference there.

[swapna]

Lookit Faye, all motivated and insightful!

So, as others have said, it's an interesting and maybe autobiographical monologue. I kind of expected something like this after yesterday's 'I know how my dad felt'-pseudo-wham!-line, but I didn't expect it to sound like a motivational speaker. It takes a little from the impact, I think, because these are not 'dramatic' moments, actually. Why would Faye string Marten along, and have him worry for her complete speech instead of telling him beforehand? It's the most important information, really, and it changes the tone of the whole conversation. Usually, I don't mind if dialogue gets switched around for drama, but this feels.. forced? Like the ending of a 'very special episode' of an American children's or teenager's TV series?

[Method of Madness]

The Talk 2: Talk Harder

Also, I'm happy that Faye's ready to start really living.

[WareWolf]

And that's how you handle relapse. Good on ya, Faye.

[cabbagehut]

I have to admit something: the only thing right now that impresses me more than the QC episodes of the last days is this forum and the insightful postings of it´s members concerning addiction and alcoholism. I´ve never been addicted to substances, so it is quite difficult for me to really relate to Faye´s problems. But in the past days I´ve read so much about this topic here, written by people who have been there, who have struggeled (and are still struggeling) with substance abuse. And by doing so I´ve learned more about it in the past few days than in my entire 46 years before.

So I wish to express my respect to everyone here. Thank you very much.

The same for me.  I've only ever been on the very outside of substance troubles, and I mostly just transfer what I know about domestic violence and abusive relationships over to how I think of it. 

For example, a person in an abusive relationship isn't in a "normal" circumstance and might behave in ways that don't make sense to me.  A person addicted to a substance isn't in a "normal" circumstance and might behave in ways that don't make sense to me.  Blaming people, trying to force them to be in a "normal" situation, yelling, threatening, etc., don't change their situations.  Both of them only have the chance to get out when they choose to/have the right opportunity, and even then, they'll often return to the not-so-great situation.  I was told (I used to work on a rape and abuse crisis line) that it takes an average of seven attempts to leave an abusive relationship for good, and even then, there is a pretty decent chance that the violence can escalate and the victim will be harmed, stalked, or even killed, which is one of the many major reasons that people don't leave.  It's dangerous to leave.  It's hard to leave someone, it's hard to quit using a substance, and facing yourself, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy or shame can be powerful.

I can't purport to know what's it's like to be in that scenario, so my job is to be sympathetic and offer as much assistance as I can, but avoid telling people what to do, even if I think I know what's best.  That's been my modus operandi for talking about both of these scenarios, even though they aren't that similar and I don't fully understand either.

Seeing the posts on this forum help me understand better.  I want to thank all the people who talked about their own struggles, even if they were difficult or painful to discuss.  I think that it's better to try to get these things out in the open and for many people to realize that they are not alone, and that others struggle with something similar.  I think these discussions do make a difference, and I am grateful that others are willing to help us get there.

[94ssd]

Pro help is the best long term option, but I think there no chance of her seeking the best if she doesn't grab the lifeline Marten just threw her.

Before jumping to judgments, and I know this comic has never really focused on money (because how boring would that be), but it's important to keep this in mind when thinking about this and more importantly about real life people with substance abuse issues...

Professional help may be the best long term option, but for a LOT of people it is simply financially impossible. Outpatient addiction treatment in the U.S. has an average cost of $10,000 a month. That jumps to $28,000 if you're talking about a live-in facility. Often only covered partially by insurance if at all. If someone can afford to feed their addiction but couldn't possibly afford addiction therapy, they're going to choose the former.

And before you say "well they'll save money by getting sober." someone living to paycheck to paycheck doesn't actually have the means to think about spending a lot of money now to save more in the distant future.

It's obviously a broken system, badly in need of being fixed. But it's something to think about if you ever think "well maybe that person should get real help."

[hedgie]

They also have to want to get better.  One of the coffee shops that I worked at, there was one guy was only fired after he refused rehab.  The bosses were more than happy to pay for it, even though they didn't have to, but he still wouldn't go.

[Akima]

And that's how you handle relapse. Good on ya, Faye.

Yes. Life isn't about how you get knocked down; it's about how you get up again. Over and over and over again.

They also have to want to get better.

This always key. If people do not want to change themselves, all attempts to do it for them are ultimately futile.