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New Character! What would you like it to be?

A transforming vehiclebot with an attitude (because QC needs its own Ultracar);
Claire's professor of Library Science becomes an on-page character;
Claire's dad comes crawling back; does he have an ulterior motive?
A down-and-out keyboard player who may or may not be what Deathmøle has been looking for;
A muck-raking journalist drops into Coffee of Doom and finds the scandal pit he's always hoped to find;
One of the people May's embezzlement ruined stumbles back into her life;
A Scrappy Squad of Sam's school friends; Momo's life just got... interesting;
Sven wasn't always careful enough and now there's a 5-year-old boy in his life.
Other (please specify)

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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)  (Read 40245 times)

BenRG

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Imagine Jeph were to give you the chance to choose the back-story of a new character for the strip! What would you choose?

I tried to be as original as possible as no-one likes duplicated characters whose only difference is in their names in any story.

I have to admit that I don't have a clear choice myself. I am more than a little fascinated with the idea of one character having a negative history with May and her having to confront the human face of what she did in pursuit of her selfish dreams. It could be seriously character-building for her or, alternately, could just give her a regular and inescapable comedy character antagonist (the Sydney Yus to her Robin DeSanto).

However, after thinking about it, I'd really like for Claire's professor to be given a face, mainly so we can follow her senior year adventures and get more of a clear picture of how she's thinking about her future. I also think that an older, wilder and somewhat embarrassing stoner who has authority over her might also be a nice way to shake up the status quo with Tai's character too!

Okay, onto my prediction for this week's strips: I'm thinking that we're going to have the Augustus kids' attempts to help Brun this week; they're well-intentioned and maybe not particular effective, but at least they're trying! I think that Claire will get involved because she genuinely empathises with Brun's difficulties and wants to help her aside from her wanting to help our what she continues to believe is her brother's crush.
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Kugai

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #1 on: 11 Sep 2016, 14:48 »

The return of Vespa Avenger and Raven - and they are now Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #2 on: 11 Sep 2016, 15:27 »

I chose the Deathmøle option because, if Marten's story is to progress, Deathmøle is the most obvious vehicle.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #3 on: 11 Sep 2016, 16:57 »

I choose you pikachoo.

Nah, I despise the lil electric rat. Never got into the card game due to Magic the collecting at the time and only watched the first season or two due to my anime club showing episodes.

Now what I could see is a continuing education student added to the mix.
A regular foil for some of the cast members and a possible connection to some of our more awkward geeks in this circle.
I could see then being a facilitator for some of the cast depending on this persons background and connections.
 
So they are going to school to upgrade certifications or get the right diploma thanks to government regulations.
[ joke here is that they literally wrote the book on the subject but the professors are giving them a hard time because they are not doing it right.
Joke overdone would be  if their picture is inside the dust jacket of the book in question. ]
{yes this happened in real life - I am not as creative as the universe - yet }

So a little or a lot older than a good chunk of the cast.
Plays the part of a fish out of water in the modern post secondary system though eventually finds a measure of routine thanks to interaction and help from maybe clin-ton.
Has to be single of course or how are we ever to get any drama?
Well read, versed etc in bygone geek culture and is about to give up on keeping up on the newer stuff.
Too many games, anime series, rpg system changes but knows quite a few people in the industry due to connections in the past.
Your basic introverted geek approaching middle age.

What kind of "issues" should they have?
Well besides being an introvert I see them being highly creative with a mind like either DATA or a more affable and less prickish Holms.
Experienced in acting various expected parts in social situations, maybe due to being into Role Playing Games for a period of their life.
Hmm, lets add a chink in that facade and have them miss the all but the most blatant interpersonal social cues.
Hmm Dudely Doright crossed with the Right Honourable member of Parliment for kicking horse pass  David Broadfoot - everthing is just downhill from there :roll:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #4 on: 11 Sep 2016, 17:27 »

• It turns out that not all the members of Bubbles' squad were killed; out of nowhere her CO turns up with news that the others may secretly be POW's.
• Unexpectedly, Momo's old chassis wakes up and claims it's the real Momo.
• One of Hanners' old counting-things clients shows up at Coffee of Doom and tries to hire her to count top secret stuff for the CIA. But is he really from the CIA?
• The basement at Coffee of Doom suddenly becomes haunted by a mischievous ghost. Hilarity ensues.
• The landlord of Marten's/Faye's/Hanners' apartment building decides to evict them as he's converting the building into condos. After protracted shenanigans, our heroes are allowed to stay, but soon the building is overrun with investment bankers and other rich scum.
• We find out at last what's been keeping Emily too busy to see Clinton: she's been creating a new custom AI named Aloysius Bartolomew. Aloysius is either the world's champion Cribbage player, or a budding world overlord, or a non-English speaking sous-chef, or various other personalities, depending on the day of the week.
• Dale's mother decides to come visit. At first she's deeply suspicious of Marigold, but eventually she and May become disturbingly close friends.
• It turns out Chad was not the first. One of Clairemom's previous paramours comes back and challenges Chad to single combat.

(I could keep this up all day.)
« Last Edit: 11 Sep 2016, 17:33 by jheartney »
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hedgie

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #5 on: 11 Sep 2016, 18:17 »

• The landlord of Marten's/Faye's/Hanners' apartment building decides to evict them as he's converting the building into condos. After protracted shenanigans, our heroes are allowed to stay, but soon the building is overrun with investment bankers and other rich scum.

Unlikely unless Hannermom allows it.  And as ruthless as she is, things erm… wouldn't be pretty for any landlord who bothered her daughter.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #6 on: 11 Sep 2016, 19:46 »

Dora is such a boring mind.  Coffee is fascinating!

(How do they get it in that nebula?)
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #7 on: 11 Sep 2016, 20:12 »

Dora is such a boring mind.  Coffee is fascinating!

I have a friend who earned a degree in food science and wanted to become a chef.

Easiest way to ruin that dream? Get them to realise the chemical complexities of flavour and combinations. Sometimes, that level of understanding is just a little too much for something that is meant to be your source of income. For some, its more the passion than the science, where instinct is more intuitive than fact.

Dora is around coffee all day, its her bread and butter so to speak. She probably knows which combination of beans work best, how to roast the beans to bring out the flavour more. Maybe the Blue Mountain blend needs just a little longer getting roasted than the Kenyan. She probably knows which types of coffee works best for a machine and which one works better in a percolator.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #8 on: 11 Sep 2016, 21:10 »

Still not very simple.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #9 on: 11 Sep 2016, 22:04 »

Local VA starts a veterans survivors support group meeting weekly (Incidentally there's an enormous VA hospital not that far from the real Northhampton that actually does a LOT of this), and Bubbles starts going to it.

Robot fight club gets raided.  Faye and Bubbles are unemployed and, after squirming for a while about possible legal fallout, go legit as robot chassis repair contractors. Corpse Witch is either vindictive and petty, or calculatedly trying to plea bargain as doing volunteer work for hardship cases, but one way or another she ensures that May's parole violation comes to the attention of authorities. 

Momo investigates electric eels' potential as an alternative robot power supply.  Most of the other AI she knows back away from her slowly without making eye contact when they hear about this, and she has no idea what's wrong.

Hitomi - a new character in a KawaiiPC chassis like Momo's old one - gets a job at the library.

Brun becomes frustrated in her job hunt, flings her harpoon at a stop sign, misses it and pierces a police vehicle accidentally, and is so stressed out that she is unable to speak during her arrest and interrogation.  Clinton attempts to intercede on her behalf.

Tortura shows up - only now she's got a student ID in what is probably a fake name, and a visa in the same name, and is determined to study English literature - or maybe that's only how she plans to lay low until the people hunting for her give up.

Agent Turing seeks out Momo to get information about the local AI rights groups.  He's quit the government job and feels that his need for the  pursuit of justice is leading him in other directions.  He is apparently still terrified of Dora, however, and this causes Tai substantial confusion and worry.

Faye's transtemporal dinosaur-shaped coffee roaster appears at a time and place where Emily is the only one who sees it.  She identifies it as a thing that must be fully investigated and understood and takes it home.  Seven weeks later, during a storm, several people report catching glimpses of a giant Kaiju-type thing but nobody can confirm this. North Hampton is plagued with a mysterious torrential rain of coffee.  Mysterious men and women with dark suits, expensive sunglasses and cheap shoes appear and begin following Emily everywhere she goes.  Her mom notices them, and at some point confronts one.  "You guys again?  What did she do this time?"

Pintsize becomes upset because some artist in Boston has salvaged his Butt Rocket and is now passing it off as her own original work of art.  He confronts her, but she's delighted to meet him and wants to team up for their next project - his transformation into a dildo chassis!  It turns out her porn collection is both larger and weirder than his own and she has three exes who are all somewhat traumatized by having known her. Pintsize isn't quite sure how to react.  Will he move away from Marten and go to Boston to be with her?  Or will he call a lawyer to sue her?  Or will he run screaming from the scary woman who is finally into him but who may be too kinky for him?  And now Pintsize has to confront disturbing questions:  Too kinky?! What does that even mean?!  Wait, that would mean I have standards, wouldn't it?  My God, I never would have believed I had standards!  Cue existential identity crisis!

DeathMole videos go viral on youtube; Agents are suddenly offering them stupid money to sign stupid contracts.  The band has serious disagreements about how to respond to all this.  Nigel St. Hubbins shows up to try to sign their drummer, because his more famous band's  more famous drummer recently got hit thirty-seven times by lightning in a freak accident.  But she doesn't want to sign with that band.  They ask him what they should do about their contract situation and he gives them the worst possible advice.  They all agree to throw him out but still don't agree on how to respond.

Wil Wheaton Guest Appearance.






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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #10 on: 11 Sep 2016, 23:13 »

Today's strip was odd. I find myself wondering how that conversation with Dora started in the first place. Did she ask? If she did, was it curiosity or was it a follow-up to something Clinton said? It certainly shows how much CoD has changed since Faye left - I couldn't see her letting him just stand there and exposit thus.

That said... yeah, the way that anything resembling linear logic breaks down once you start talking quantum is always a little unsettling. Dora is right to prefer not to think about it and stick to the facts that she does know. Sometimes, the search for knowledge is a double-edged blade, especially if it is impossible to explain the results in a way the layman can understand.

I have to say that I think someone was in a bad mood this morning at CoD. Notice that "anything else" in the coffee list on the blackboard is listed as "don't ask". :-P
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #11 on: 11 Sep 2016, 23:18 »

Tbh I don't think Faye would've cared enough to ask.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #12 on: 11 Sep 2016, 23:24 »

Dora is, of course, greatly oversimplifying it. Making an excellent cup of coffee is more complex than just beans+water. Sure, that's enough to make the kind of swill Marten will drink, but for a premium cup a lot more goes into it. From the beans you select, to the soil they are grown in, to the way you store them, to the temperature and time you roast them, to the purity and temperature of the water you use, to the cleanliness of the equipment, to the container you serve it in. All those factors and more play a part. Now for most baristas it's more a matter of art and intuition than calculated chemistry, but it is still far from simple.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #13 on: 12 Sep 2016, 01:12 »

The calculated chemistry of determining the shapes of molecules in solution is really, really interesting though.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275953662_Meta-Genetic_Algorithms_Molecules_and_Supercomputers_Poster


"Molecules can have different shapes, yet the same chemical formula. These shapes – conformers – have different energies. The molecule will tend to adopt the shape with the lowest energy. A molecule's shape determines how it fits with chemical receptors in cells, so determines some of its pharmaceutical properties. So it's really useful to know what that minimum-energy shape is. One problem: a molecule of length 12 has nearly 180,000 possible shapes. To calculate the energy of just one shape takes about an hour on the National Computing Infrastructure. At 20c an hour, that's $90,000. And a molecule of length 14 has over ten times as many... "
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #14 on: 12 Sep 2016, 02:10 »

OK, I *so* don't buy today's comic. To the point of being mildly angry.

There's no denying that there are many, many gaps in human knowledge, but technology does not work like that. Nor does science, really. The comparison to using fire only works on the surface. Let me try and explain why.

I can believe that AI could emerge without us really understanding why and how. The thing is, we still don't really know where to look for consciousness and we have only a fairly rudimentary understanding of how brains work. But, this is mainly due to neural patterns being very complex systems. We can't understand the big picture, because there's just so MUCH of it. We still understand a *lot* of the basic building blocks. We know the chemistry of the brain and many details of it. We understand the physics and chemistry behind neurons firing. We may not have mapped out everything that happens and so we do not *understand* some of what is happening, but we understand *what* is happening.

The thing is, with something like a power source, there's no real room for that. Assuming AI use electricity and not some kind of new, incredible energy beyond the understanding of current physics, we understand the building blocks of matter pretty well. We know what electrons do and how they flow, and there's only so many ways you can induce an electric current. If a battery uses a chemical process, we can trace the chemistry back to where the free electrons come from. If there's a physical process, there needs to be some sort of interaction between electromagnetic fields, and again, these may be complex to a person intimidated by physics, but not to someone who studies these things. The science behing electricity sources is more than a century old.

On top of that, engineering usually *follows* theoretical science, not the other way around. Usually the process is well understood way before we can make it viable. The first atomic bomb operated on a fairly simple principle. Take two particles of a certain kind and smash them together. The problem was to get the particles to *do* that, and that cost a lot of time, money and thinking.

There is no conceivable way anything short of an alien technology operating on unknown physics would utilise something not analyse-able. Complex technology can't be done blindly, most of the difficult advances in technology are still ways to do something in a way that works within the material and energy limitations.

If there's an AI that creates something that current physics can't account for? Fine. But that would still not explain how this thing can be manufactured. If there's an AI that can create something, but can't convey the principle to scientists in English (or whatever)? Fine. The AI may be lying about any of the above? Fine. But you don't go and create a piece of efficient technology accidentally. That's certainly not how things work. Our understanding of physics may be limited, but we're not cavemen, and it's usually technology chasing science, not the other way around. And again, power sources are, in principle, simple things. Theoretical complexity is NOT the limiting factor behind limitations on power source capacity. Actual material and chemistry and weight and size constraints are.

On top of that, if an AI created a device that no science can adequately explain, there's ten different reasons why this special device would not be crammed into consumer electronics. If it truly operates on some principles indistinguishable from magic, they might explode and create a gateway to another dimension, for what we know. Or give people cancers. Or steal souls. Or whatever. If we rule out those possibilities with a high degree of confidence, then we OBVIOUSLY know, at least roughly, what the device does. And that takes us back to actual electromagnetic fields, which again, interact in well-understood ways.

And on top of *that*, if there was a device that only some select AI understood, or perhaps do not understand as well, its existence would have a much, much bigger impact on science and technology and pretty much everything. Starting with the Industrial Revolution, the only limiting factor on what we can globally do has been pretty much the level of available energy. Look at how difficult space exploration is just because we can't get around the very simple problem of fuel. If what is essentially a magic box of energy existed, that'd change a *lot*, in many respects. I know QC has some suspension-of-disbelief-stretching elements, but a special super-power-cell based on, for all intents and purposes, magic is what breaks my suspension of disbelief where Pintsize and May did not.

Oh, and regarding the coffee example - we may not be able to trace every, well, trace element in coffee that contributes to flavour, but that's a matter of practicality. We still know what the main contributions to the taste and scent are (that's pretty much how we can make artificial flavourings of just about anything), and we understand the chemistry of ingredients such as caffeine on the human body pretty well, too. Not knowing every single component in a brewed coffee is nowhere near the same ballpark as "we have a power cell and have no idea how it works". I'd buy a power cell that has some weird side effects that are difficult to map, but not this. And the comic says the AI do not *know* how the technology works, not that there are some fiddly, not well-understood bits. Again, you can't create a device by accident, unless your setting incorporates mad science (which is for all intents and purposes a form of magic).

There's, of course, also the possibility that Clinton just has limited knowledge about the subject or is exaggerating. I see no other explanation that hold much water. That, or I have to accept the poetic license of the world, which I'm prepared to do, but the comic that tries to be exposition-y and creates more issues than it solves kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #15 on: 12 Sep 2016, 02:46 »

I think that you're missing the point here, Oddtail. What Jeph seems to be doing is explicitly invoking Clarke's Law. This is technology but, functionally, it's magic and can do whatever the author wants it to do whenever he wants it.

He's justifying this in-universe by having Clinton explain that the QCverse's tech base is on an exponential upward curve where new materials and technologies are being exploited before the theoretical underpinnings have even been fully explored, let alone understood. Basically: "Ooh! Shiny! Let's sell it!"
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #16 on: 12 Sep 2016, 02:53 »

The problem is, I see very little evidence of this rapid progress in the comic's setting, and the existence of a magic power source is a bit too much to me, personally. Yes, even compared to sapient AIs. I think actually having magic in-universe would be less upsetting to me.

The thing is, it's not just that the world has technology that the real world does not. The world literally operates differently than real life does, in terms of how science and technology changes. A world without the... shall we say, "usual" way new technology is introduced would have a cascade of profound consequences that are difficult to dismiss. That makes a world that seems to be identical to early 21st century Earth in pretty much all practical respects difficult to believe.

I'm fine with a world that is not that internally consistent and adds elements that do not necessarily mesh together for the sake of the story or just because it's fun. I did survive reading the "Harry Potter" books ;). But if a world is not particularly logical, I think it's a bad idea to intentionally draw attention to it and try to handwave it in the way that today's comic does.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #17 on: 12 Sep 2016, 03:26 »

The problem is, I see very little evidence of this rapid progress in the comic's setting,

Orbital pizza delivery, rocket boots and time-travelling espresso machines are examples that jump to mind. The reason we don't see more über-tech is because, literally, things are moving too quickly. Only maverick and borderline-crazy geniuses like Raven and Dr Ellicott-Chatham are even approaching the right mindset to exploit some of these technologies. Additionally, humans are essentially conservative in nature and reluctant to let things change too much unless the advertising campaign is really slick (see the history of the Apple iPad, iPhone and iPod for more details). So long as the new tech remains a 'black box' hidden from most people, there would be few visible changes.

Also, don't forget that Jeph has to continue to make the setting comprehensible to his readers. IRL, the sort of developments hinted at in various QC strips would lead to epochal-level changes in human society. However, Jeph doesn't want to waste too much time explaining why everyone has rocket boots and has coffee miraculously teleported to them from the future by their Espressosaur.

Why is Jeph reminding us of this now? I've got a feeling that he's setting the scene for some AI-involved and narrative-critical leap of technology that needs to receive an advance disclaimer. Like what? Given the direction last week's strips went and the fact that Bubbles can't respond in a human-like way when she's being tickled, maybe there is about to be an all-AI Firmware upgrade that will have consequences.

[Edit]
It's also worth remembering the time-frame we're talking about here. From various things Hannelore said, this sudden runaway technology curve is something like ten years old at the most. There is some indication that AI civil rights have been broadly implemented for the first time during the in-universe time frame of the strip (likely less than three years). There may not have been enough time for broader applications of some of these developments.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #18 on: 12 Sep 2016, 03:39 »

Today's strip was odd. I find myself wondering how that conversation with Dora started in the first place. Did she ask? If she did, was it curiosity or was it a follow-up to something Clinton said? It certainly shows how much CoD has changed since Faye left - I couldn't see her letting him just stand there and exposit thus.

Maybe it started with a question regarding the need to have one of those cardboard sleeves on cups that make it possible to hold hot liquids.  Clinton then stated that while his hand is sensitive it can automatically adjust to hold a cup that would normally be too hot for a normal hand to handle and the conversation just went from there.  I'm actually surprised that the the subject of coffee development has never come up with Hannelore. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #19 on: 12 Sep 2016, 03:48 »

BenRG: You make some good points, I guess I can sort of see new developments in technology being in the background... I still wonder, if technology can be implemented this easily and with basically no oversight, how does the QC-verse work otherwise? Do people still need driving licences? Are they allowed to carry firearms everywhere, with no limitations? Are some pharmacological substances controlled? If the world of QC is similar to ours in those and similar respects, I am... not really sure why. If you can carry things like artificial arms powered by space technology batteries, that implies that people in the QC-universe (not filthy rich people either, just regular people) have ready access to space technology. I can't imagine that not turning the world into either a post-scarcity utopia or a scary dystopia. Oh well.

On top of that, that has the side consequence that I can sort of understand the anti-AI prejudice... does it even qualify as prejudice? Since AIs (presumably) do not recharge their energy sources once per hour, and a single hand has the power source recharging timeline like a typical smartphone, that means AIs walk around with internal energy sources that might as well be large bombs, energy output-wise. I guess if real life had robots that, for all I know, may malfunction and leave a crater the size of a building, I'd be less worried about their citizen rights and more about the ramifications of *that*. I don't think it's prejudice, anymore, to be all "I'm surrounded by technology that I have no idea how it works and what it might do". Technology causes enough problems when it's based on *known* principles... EDIT: also, we've seen that at least some AI bodies are fairly easy to damage. So there's actual possibility of an AI being, say, hit by a car and destroying a nearby building or something, and since nobody knows how they are powered, including the AIs themselves, nobody knows what that may or may not lead to. After all, a complex power source that works "just because" would be impossible to reliably maintain, repair or monitor for signs of wear.

Granted, I'm probably overanalysing the comic, and many things that've happened in the comic before were probably ripe for such overanalysis... but this is the first time in recent memory where instead of leaving things unexplained, the comic puts the stuff I consider problematic on full display. It's one thing to have AI whose inner workings are vaguely hinted at and there might be some (unknown to the reader) reasons why things are the way they are, and another to explain a robotic hand that seems to be a fairly accessible thing in-universe, but raises the question as to why the world is not all space-y and such.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #20 on: 12 Sep 2016, 03:48 »

On top of that, if an AI created a device that no science can adequately explain, there's ten different reasons why this special device would not be crammed into consumer electronics.

Not quite convinced, consider the work that's been done on genetic algorithms and evolved circuits - eg Thompson http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.50.9691&rep=rep1&type=pdf .  There's a possible line of development there.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #21 on: 12 Sep 2016, 07:00 »

No WTF Macchiato?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #22 on: 12 Sep 2016, 07:24 »

I have to accept the poetic license of the world, which I'm prepared to do, but the comic that tries to be exposition-y and creates more issues than it solves kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah, I tried to say something similar a few days ago and nobody much liked that either. It's a bit of a failure of world-building, with the caveat that Jeph is obviously more interested in funny storylines than in world-building. If the storylines are funny enough, we don't care about how unlikely they are.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #23 on: 12 Sep 2016, 07:52 »

Honestly, I think the issue is that we understand how a lot of these things work, we just don't understand why they work.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #24 on: 12 Sep 2016, 09:25 »

Re: that last one on morituri's list - already been done.

Sent from my Nextbook
« Last Edit: 12 Sep 2016, 09:32 by jwhouk »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #25 on: 12 Sep 2016, 11:27 »

On top of that, if an AI created a device that no science can adequately explain, there's ten different reasons why this special device would not be crammed into consumer electronics.

Not quite convinced, consider the work that's been done on genetic algorithms and evolved circuits - eg Thompson http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.50.9691&rep=rep1&type=pdf .  There's a possible line of development there.

Thanks for the link, JimC! Good reading!

My former coworkers at Nokia told me that story. When they reached the punchline in the end, and told the bit about how removing totally disconnect parts of the circuitry made it malfunction, I recall being impressed at first and a bit skeptical later. After all, it would have been very much in character for them trying to put a fast one by a math guy largely ignorant about EE. Not unlike other rookie tricks: "remember to lube the muffler bearings" or "you go fetch the keys to the trebuchet shooting range".
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #26 on: 12 Sep 2016, 13:17 »

I just want to point out that we, in real life, can also create consciousness without knowing how it works.  It usually takes about nine months, followed by a decade or two of training the resulting neural net to full personhood.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #27 on: 12 Sep 2016, 14:20 »

The hand of power :-D

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #28 on: 12 Sep 2016, 14:57 »

Quote
"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

Mentat fuel that stuff is.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #29 on: 12 Sep 2016, 15:26 »

I don't think it's prejudice, anymore, to be all "I'm surrounded by technology that I have no idea how it works and what it might do".
Since we are all surrounded by people of whom it is equally true that we don't know how they work, and what they might do, I think it would qualify as prejudice if we applied different standards to AI sentient beings.

The issue of battery-safety is a real one though, and has come up with proposed technologies (sodium sulphur batteries, for example) in our world. However, it's important not to apply different, neophobic standards to new technologies from those we apply to ones we live with every day. I'm pretty sure that if someone proposed today a transport technology involving motor-cars driving around under unreliable guidance, with a tankful of highly inflammable, and in some circumstances explosive, liquid fuel, we would declare it too unsafe to be allowed.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #30 on: 12 Sep 2016, 16:13 »

If you think worldbuilding is more important than story, then maybe QC is not the comic for you.

But with regards to this particular story, of the existence of a battery technology in the QCverse which is not fully understood - for all the words written to attack this idea, I have to say that my impression was that this kind of thing surely does occur. Off the top of my head, I don't think that the mechanism of asprin was perfectly understood when it was first produced. Maybe someone knows better than me?

So, I decided to ask the All Knowing Oracle, and amusingly enough, found this recent article.

Researchers Might Have Accidentally Made Batteries Last 400 Times Longer

In particular:

Quote
Instead of lithium, researchers at UC Irvine have used gold nanowires to store electricity, and have found that their system is able to far outlast traditional lithium battery construction. The Irvine team's system cycled through 200,000 recharges without significant corrosion or decline.

However, they don't exactly know why. The original idea of the experiment was to make a solid-state battery: one that uses an electrolyte gel, rather than liquid, to help hold charge. Liquid batteries, like the common lithium variety, are extremely combustible and sensitive to temperature. The Irvine team was experimenting by substituting a much thicker gel.

"We started to cycle the devices, and then realized that they weren't going to die," said Reginald Penner, a lead author of the paper. "We don't understand the mechanism of that yet."

To switch tracks, there is a particularly awesome film called Primer which is about a couple of inventors who accidentally invent time travel. They invent it and start to exploit it, but it certainly could not be said that they fully understood it before they built it. They didn't even know what they'd invented at first.

This is not some kind of artistic-license bullshit. History abounds with accidental inventions. Penicillin being the most famous example. Primer, for mine, is actually the most immersive and realistic-feeling depiction of time-travel invention that I've ever seen.

... engineering usually *follows* theoretical science, not the other way around. Usually the process is well understood way before we can make it viable. The first atomic bomb operated on a fairly simple principle. Take two particles of a certain kind and smash them together. The problem was to get the particles to *do* that, and that cost a lot of time, money and thinking.

Usually, yes. In that example, sure.

But - critically - not always.

To cut a long story short (too late), Jeph's scenario is not nearly as outrageous as you are trying to make out.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #31 on: 12 Sep 2016, 16:28 »

I don't think it's prejudice, anymore, to be all "I'm surrounded by technology that I have no idea how it works and what it might do".
Since we are all surrounded by people of whom it is equally true that we don't know how they work, and what they might do, I think it would qualify as prejudice if we applied different standards to AI sentient beings.

The issue of battery-safety is a real one though, and has come up with proposed technologies (sodium sulphur batteries, for example) in our world. However, it's important not to apply different, neophobic standards to new technologies from those we apply to ones we live with every day. I'm pretty sure that if someone proposed today a transport technology involving motor-cars driving around under unreliable guidance, with a tankful of highly inflammable, and in some circumstances explosive, liquid fuel, we would declare it too unsafe to be allowed.

But the comic explicitly stated that it's not just potentially unsafe batteries. It's batteries that no-one actually has any idea how they operate. This has no parallel in the real world. It's not neophobic to be worried about untested technology of unproven safety. In a world with safety belts in cars, with emission limits on factories and with strict limits on how much radiation and in what way one may receive during a medical procedure, something no-one actually knows the mechanics of would never be something most people would be comfortable around, and rightly so. It's not about the risk, it's about the unknown.

Regarding the prejudice thing, if AI in QC-verse are discriminated against based on unfair assumptions as to what they might do, it's prejudice. If there's something inherently worrying about the way their power sources operate or might operate, and someone stays away from them based on that, I don't see how that is prejudice. The closest real-life parallel would be staying away from a person who behaves erratically, or from a person who seems to have some sort of visible "mysterious" sickness. Real-life people may do all sorts of things, but they do not tend to literally explode, which might happen to an AI (note: not necessarily literally explode, I mean it as a catch-all term for something happening that is unsafe and can't be easily predicted or prevented). But if a person, for any physical or behavioural reason, gave other people an idea that they are a complete wildcard and something might happen completely unexpectedly that involves them, avoiding that person would not be something I think of as prejudice.

And I completely disagree with the "we don't know how people work" argument. I may not know what a specific person may do, they may do all sorts of random stuff, but general patterns of human behaviour are pretty clear in most situations. Granted, AI in QC behave in a similarly predictable way, because they for the most part seem to behave like humans, but again - if they existed in real life, I'd be more worried about the physical threat their bodies may be posing, regardless of the AI's actual intent.

To put it another way, one may chuckle at the "untested particle accelerators strapped to our backs" line from the original Ghostbusters movie. But if in real life, a large number of people walked around with those strapped to them, staying clear from people equipped with a potentially dangerous "magical" technology would not be presumptuous, it would be reasonable. And if AIs are powered by something that works in an unexplained way, they are pretty much that.

Even ignoring the more sci-fi flavour of AI from QC... realistically, a wide adoption of an unverified and unsafe technology would be difficult to accept. To give one example, cars, including their engines, have to meet certain, fairly strict, safety standards. A technology that is neither regulated nor well researched could not possibly be certified to be safe. I don't think it would be either easy to implement, or to make people agree with, a car that does not meet the usual standards, or a car based on a possibly unreliable technology. I see AIs as similar, not because they are AI, but because they apparently need to be powered by something that is not reasonably guaranteed to be safe.
« Last Edit: 12 Sep 2016, 16:34 by oddtail »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #32 on: 12 Sep 2016, 16:55 »

I'm reasonably sure that before gold nanowire batteries start appearing in consumer devices, there will be lots and lots of safety testing, not to mention vigorous investigation of what the mechanism of their longevity is. Too many class-liability lawyers waiting to pounce for it to be any other way.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #33 on: 12 Sep 2016, 16:57 »

If you think worldbuilding is more important than story, then maybe QC is not the comic for you.

Note the rest of my comment: "with the caveat that Jeph is obviously more interested in funny storylines than in world-building. If the storylines are funny enough, we don't care about how unlikely they are."
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #34 on: 12 Sep 2016, 17:16 »

Over analyzing is a fun game.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #35 on: 12 Sep 2016, 17:16 »

Of course, a fictional depiction of a commercialised invention that is not perfectly safe would be completely unbelieveable.  :roll:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #36 on: 12 Sep 2016, 19:26 »

There certainly aren't batteries that catch fire in our own timeline, no sir.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #37 on: 12 Sep 2016, 19:58 »

Over analyzing is a fun game.

Over analyzing is what we do here. :D
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #38 on: 12 Sep 2016, 19:58 »

There's a battery that's lasted over a century and a half and nobody's really sure how it's managed to do that.


https://youtu.be/UtQGYz4f3YQ
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #39 on: 12 Sep 2016, 20:12 »

It is time! To talk about Edison's alkaline storage battery? Which nobody really understands?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #40 on: 12 Sep 2016, 21:07 »

Over-analysis aside (has anyone analysed our tendency to over-analyse yet?), if some aspect of the story breaks your willing suspension of disbelief, I guess there are no words that are ever going to change that.

On the other hand, it doesn't really need to be justified either. Trying to rationalise it is merely inviting debate. "That broke my suspension of disbelief" would have done. But, I suppose, where is the fun in that?  :mrgreen:

While I'm here:

If you think worldbuilding is more important than story, then maybe QC is not the comic for you.

Note the rest of my comment: "with the caveat that Jeph is obviously more interested in funny storylines than in world-building. If the storylines are funny enough, we don't care about how unlikely they are."

That comment wasn't aimed at you, obviously. It was more of a general remark/observation.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #41 on: 12 Sep 2016, 21:37 »

I chose the Deathmøle option because, if Marten's story is to progress, Deathmøle is the most obvious vehicle.

Query: What if the keyboardist also happens to turn into a vehicle?

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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #42 on: 12 Sep 2016, 23:27 »

If Jeph isn't just pulling our legs and Claire is on her fifth Mocha, then I strongly suspect that she's going to have visibly blurred edges and betalkingextraquicklyandinahigher-pitchevoice right now.

It's interesting that Clinton specifically says that Claire has a hard time differentiating 'helping' from 'manipulating'. One can't help but wonder how long this has been the case and why it came about. More fall-out from the example in life given to them by their absentee father? Was he manipulative and accidentally gave young Claire the idea that this was the way to work with people?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #43 on: 12 Sep 2016, 23:38 »

Possible.

Or, perhaps, it's the opposite? Perhaps their father had no kind of hands on in their home life? This might, then, give her the idea that interfering might be the path to making things better despite how often it fails?

Claire is a difficult character for people other than the author to deal with. Frankly we are best served by letting that author to do so.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #44 on: 13 Sep 2016, 00:21 »

If Jeph isn't just pulling our legs and Claire is on her fifth Mocha, then I strongly suspect that she's going to have visibly blurred edges and betalkingextraquicklyandinahigher-pitchevoice right now.

From only five cups of coffee? Five cups is not that excessive.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #45 on: 13 Sep 2016, 03:33 »

It's interesting that Clinton specifically says that Claire has a hard time differentiating 'helping' from 'manipulating'. One can't help but wonder how long this has been the case and why it came about. More fall-out from the example in life given to them by their absentee father? Was he manipulative and accidentally gave young Claire the idea that this was the way to work with people?

Claire clearly got her manipulative tendencies from her mother, a.k.a. Ms. "Let's invite this boy my daughter likes over for breakfast without warning her."
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #46 on: 13 Sep 2016, 04:05 »

If Jeph isn't just pulling our legs and Claire is on her fifth Mocha, then I strongly suspect that she's going to have visibly blurred edges and betalkingextraquicklyandinahigher-pitchevoice right now.

From only five cups of coffee? Five cups is not that excessive.

Not entirely sure since cappuccino is as exotic as I've been with my coffee consumption and it also depends on the blend.  I had one cup of a Sumatran blend that allowed me to bend time once. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #47 on: 13 Sep 2016, 04:28 »

If Jeph isn't just pulling our legs and Claire is on her fifth Mocha, then I strongly suspect that she's going to have visibly blurred edges and betalkingextraquicklyandinahigher-pitchevoice right now.

From only five cups of coffee? Five cups is not that excessive.

Not entirely sure since cappuccino is as exotic as I've been with my coffee consumption and it also depends on the blend.  I had one cup of a Sumatran blend that allowed me to bend time once. 

Sumatran, huh? I guess that's another one of those beautiful mysteries we are comfortable selling but will never truly understand. ;)

Time and good coffee are truly incomprehensible in their grandeur and grace.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3306 - 3310 (12th to 16th September 2016)
« Reply #48 on: 13 Sep 2016, 06:25 »

If Jeph isn't just pulling our legs and Claire is on her fifth Mocha, then I strongly suspect that she's going to have visibly blurred edges and betalkingextraquicklyandinahigher-pitchevoice right now.

From only five cups of coffee? Five cups is not that excessive.

It depends on the time frame and octane of the shots she's getting. And any tolerance that she's built up.
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