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He'll have words with the Praeses and find that he sorely underestimated them.

The Praeses will find they sorely underestimated the Earth dwellers.

Pate and the Praeses will reach a mutually beneficial deal since they have the same interests in mind.

Pate and Church will get sucked out an airlock because Ardent subconsciously programmed the spaceship's computer.

They'll be intercepted by the Mooninites who will book Alice and Gavia for crimes against the moon.

[Tova]

Those could be part of a ruse to conceal whatever enhancements he has.

[brasca]

Those could be part of a ruse to conceal whatever enhancements he has.

Considering how the glasses appeared to glow there was some speculation that he had something similar to Dale's from Questionable Content.  That's probably not the case and he just has tinted lenses, but it could just be a prop used to deceive people. 

[JimC]

I was just thinking, if I were Alice I'd hold something back, only operate at about 80% or something. Even though she's physically not on a level with Mr Church it might be useful to have something in reserve. Although it also occurs to me that its quite possible Mr Church knows as much about Alice as she does about him.

[Zebediah]

Comic's up.

Sedna is maintaining a positive attitude.

[brasca]

Well we know Sedna can heal fast and she thinks there's a way to defeat him.  Perhaps they have a weakness or vulnerability that Sedna could exploit if she put her mind to doing it.  Despite what they may say Alice and Sedna don't really hate each other enough to use such a tactic, but Church is different.  However, this would likely require time which they didn't have during their ill fated escape attempt and not likely to have later since Pate probably wants his spaceship ready to go as soon as possible.   

[BenRG]

It's interesting that Sedna says that Church chose to brutally murder Ellie rather than just disarm or immobilise. her. That strongly implies that Church is fully self-aware and independent. He has chosen to work for Pate. Maybe they have complimentary goals and/or attitudes but Pate has the resources, contacts and charisma to get things Church never could by force.

I'm suddenly getting a strongly similar feeling of how the Darth Vader/Emperor relationship was originally presented in the Original Trilogy - The Emperor being politically powerful but needing Vader to be his enforcer because, fundamentally, he was nowhere near as personally strong. One wonders if, when push comes to shove, Mr Pate will turn out to be as formidable foe as Darth Sideous!

What is more, we all know what Darth Vader's endgame was going to be. Once the Emperor was of no further use to him? In the end, there could be only one Top Dog in the Sith!

"Alice... join me. Together, we will finally end this war and rule this system together... as brother and sister. Alice... You will destroy Pate... He himself has forseen this... Alice... it is your destiny!"

[Kugai]

But does that mean that Church will eventually toss Pate down a long shaft into a Reactor?


I hope Sedna's right and they can deal with Church.

[pwhodges]

Re whether Pate might be enhanced or not: he makes it clear when talking to Ardent that he is not like Alice et al - though of course we can't really trust what he says when buttering up Ardent, I guess.

[plusorminus]

@BenRG, but wasn't Sideous confirmed as one of the most powerful Sith ever? Yeah, Vader was bad ass but he also couldn't exist outside the suit. Palps was weakened by the Force Lightning blast, but not as much as Anakin? I thought?

Anyway, I also find Sedna's word choice interesting. Considering that had Alice continued wailing on her, Gavia could have and likely would have ended up like Ellie, nanotech or no, Alice did stop when Ardent pleaded with her, and she stopped herself from killing Ardent when she thought he might be the Praeses' pawn. Considering that Sedna didn't know that Church was at the level of her and Alice on sight, for that statement to be factual, it means that Sedna learned something about Church off-panel. Because there is nothing in what we've seen of him that indicates he has anything near to Alice's restraint or Sedna's empathy.

And I am starting to love Sedna more and more. While I would have loved to see Ardent's initial reaction to the news of the recent events, this scene works really nicely. He understands the danger they're in, he understand's Pate's goal, and he understands that he is in the middle of this. Very nicely done. I also like seeing Ardent's continued character growth. But for some backsliding, he's gotten off the "We're on vacation!" lark completely. I think it was more or less gone after the Nightwalker took Gavia's nanotech, but I think with Ellie's death, he is understanding the stakes here. He's been sort of seen as a goofball cinnamon roll but I think we're gonna see Ardent as the one putting Church's head on a spike. Can't wait.

[Method of Madness]

Anakin's body was pretty much destroyed by lava, that's why he couldn't exist outside the suit. Palpatine got pretty badly electrocuted by his own lightning, but it was reflected off Mace's light saber so that...softened it? I don't know, it's not really clear.

[BenRG]

@BenRG, but wasn't Sideous confirmed as one of the most powerful Sith ever? Yeah, Vader was bad ass but he also couldn't exist outside the suit. Palps was weakened by the Force Lightning blast, but not as much as Anakin? I thought?

That doesn't matter; it is in a Sith Apprentice's nature to seek to destroy his or her Master when they have learned all they could and are strong enough to do so. Vader knew that he couldn't beat Palpatine one-on-one so he didn't even try. The EU (now known as 'Legends') records at least one occasion when he tried to train an apprentice to back up his attempted coup (as well as several occasions when he tried to salvage tools or learn abilities to give him an edge) and we all know what his game plan was for trying to get Luke on his side - Kill Palpatine and take over the Empire.

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. The point is that, until the climax of Return of the Jedi, we had no clue that The Emperor was powerful in his own right as a Force Adept. So, I'm wondering if Pate will turn out to have hidden depths. Maybe extrasensory or energy field manipulation based powers to offset Church being an ultra-strong and invulnerable living tank?

[Tevildo]

New here, first post. Whee. I like this comic; it's grown on me a lot since it first started.

I did want to say, I'm glad to see Sedna not severely disabled forever, or incapacitated by feelings of failure. Church's presence has a bit of a Hollywood vibe, so it's nice to see the usual set of cliches not being followed exactly.

Still crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into "Ardent Single-Handedly Saves The Day And Gets The Girl", though.

(And, err, not sure if this is the place for such comments. Hope I'm not goofing up already...)

[BenRG]

Welcome new person and, don't worry, those comments don't violate any unspoken rules.

Still crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into "Ardent Single-Handedly Saves The Day And Gets The Girl", though.

That presupposes that Ardent meets a girl with whom he's interested in a sustained relationship and isn't inspired to slap his face upon first meeting.

[pwhodges]

Ardent doesn't want to get "the girl" - he wants to get all the girls!

(Disclaimer - my avatar on my other main forum is currently Ardent from today's comic.)

[Tevildo]

Thanks for the welcome, y'all!

For the purposes of Hollywood cliche, plural is probably even worse than singular. And there's no rule that male hero types even have to be good at anything. Michael Crichton, as far as I could tell, habitually wrote goofball hero dudes who perforce succeeded because they were dudes.

Sorry, everyone. Pop culture has conditioned me to expect disappointment.

(And don't get me wrong, I do like the comic. But I will breath a sigh of relief when Church stops being a major player. Juggernaut-style male villains are a hard sell for me.)

(Also: if Ardent avenges Ellie's death, I swear I'm gonna just ragequit AG, geekery withdrawal be damned... )

[sitnspin]

Ardent doesn't want to get "the girl" - he wants to get all the girls!

(Disclaimer - my avatar on my other main forum is currently Ardent from today's comic.)

I can hardly fault him for that, I am of a similar mindset.

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome, new person!

Sedna did not punch the carriage as hard as Alice punched the bunker. Why? Because she couldn't? Because flying debris could have hurt bystanders?

The other noteworthy thing is that Alice was pulling her punches drastically when she beat up Gavia. Put that together with how much she was enjoying it and it reminds me of a cat torturing a mouse.

[Pogopotamus]

Re Church "choosing" to kill Ellie from a fair is fair perspective we have to remember that Ellie was most definitely trying to kill Church and did not know he was an android. She hit him in the head with a thick metal bar so hard it bent. That blow would have easily fatally crushed the skull of any human being.  And why was she trying to kill hiim? For stopping the violent destruction of his bosses property.  Ellie was trying to *kill* him for doing his job.

There's more to the moral calculus here than "innocent Ellie got killed by the murder bot". If you are trying to eat the bear and the bear eats you that's what happens sometimes. 

Also Sedna hardly seems to be a position to be pontificating about "choice". Recall that just a little bit ago she was peppering human bystanders to Alice with live ammo. If Gavia had not had a shield they would all be dead from bullet wounds.

[Neko_Ali]

Regardless of how you want to dress it up, if he has any free agency at all, he chose to kill Ellie, and enjoyed the chance to do so, by his look.

Ellie attacked Church, after he badly injured her friend. Since the surprise attack happened immediately after Church crushed Sedna's shoulder, she must have seen it happen. It's a fair assumption to think that she knows how tough Sedna is. Even if she didn't know Church was super human, anyone who could do that to Sedna was clearly a threat, so yes, she went for deadly force. or what she thought was deadly anyway.  It's not like she could call the non-existent police. Also, as far as Pate being her boss... He's only somewhat so. He's her backer. There is a difference. Ellie attacked Church to defend her injured friend. Church killed Ellie because he could. He wasn't even in danger from her. Big difference between the two.

Sedna was shooting at people who were invading her homestead without an announcement. And yes, Sedna is exactly in the position to talk about choice. All three enhanced people can easily kill someone or not. Nor are normal people any great danger to them if any at all. So killing is very much a choice. Alice and Sedna are not nice people. They've never claimed to be either. They've certainly never pretended there is no blood on their hands. Killing Ellie was still a choice Church made. And it's not like they are even pretending they are on a moral high ground here. Sedna straight up says she wants to kill Church for killing her friend. Not 'bring him to justice' or any flowery terms. "He's a monster, I'm going to put him on a spike."

[TinPenguin]

Alice and Sedna are not nice people.

For reference:

[Method of Madness]

Sedna did not punch the carriage as hard as Alice punched the bunker. Why?

She didn't have to.

[USS Martenclaire]

Alice and Sedna are not nice people.

For reference:

I wonder if there's something to the eye colours here. Sedna's being red, Alice with blue and Mr Church's "Evil David Bowie" thing. Perhaps whatever traits Alice and Sedna have, they were merged in an experiment with Church, explaining his on and off behaviour.

[TinPenguin]

Alice has also displayed the red-eyed aggression trait, when trying to rescue Gavia from the Night Walker.

[BenRG]

There was, many moons ago, an abortive TV superhero story. One of the gimmicks was that, as the protagonist's powers boosted to higher and higher levels, his eye colour changed with red being the penultimate stage before "oops, you've just overloaded your endocrine system and exploded".

I'm wondering if the red eyes are signs that the Super-Soldiers are utilising some 'turbo boost' augmentation to massively increase their strength, reaction times and energy reserves. If that is the case, it implies that all three we've seen so far use some common technologies and may be the product of the same research program and maybe even the same clone factory.

[Neko_Ali]

Red eyes is a common trope in cartoons and comics to show that someone is about to go psycho on you. Some characters eyes are always like that. Sometimes it's a personality flip where they normally have another color, but when they get angry or whatever happens to turn them into killing machines they go red.

It is in fact a TV Trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedEyesTakeWarning

[derech]

Yeah, but.   Who (if anyone) from Alice, Sedna, Gavia and Ardent does Pate actually require though?   Is it only Alice, because for all his lack of needing sleep and apparently useful violent tendencies, Church is incapable of actually punching through a mass of something like reinforced bunker material?   Only Ardent because of his abilities, and Alice is made to do the punching to keep them from knowing Church's true capabilities?  None of them, they just happened to be there so got used?   Back where they came from Pate certainly acted like he went to the bunker then because he needed something from them and that guess is Alice's strength.    Weird immortal strength.     

But pretty clearly Pate is not giving them any information he doesn't need to.  Like he doesn't really answer Alice about her contention Church could do the punching, just agrees with her sort of.   Alice and Sedna didn't seem to be too concerned with where Church was before starting out to destroy that vehicle, but as others have pointed out, Church just ...  phase shifted in or something.   Like he did pretty much every time we've seen him, not there then bamf whoosh.   Clearly Pate thinks that sort of thing can take care of every problem these rather unwilling helpers might cause.     

There are a lot of rhetorical questions nobody has the answers to yet.

[sitnspin]

I think he just used Alice to prove that he had the power to make her do something she didn't want to do. It was purely a dominance display, putting her in her place. He's a smug little shit.


Also, welcome new person.

[brasca]

Re Church "choosing" to kill Ellie from a fair is fair perspective we have to remember that Ellie was most definitely trying to kill Church and did not know he was an android. She hit him in the head with a thick metal bar so hard it bent. That blow would have easily fatally crushed the skull of any human being.  And why was she trying to kill hiim? For stopping the violent destruction of his bosses property.  Ellie was trying to *kill* him for doing his job.

There's more to the moral calculus here than "innocent Ellie got killed by the murder bot". If you are trying to eat the bear and the bear eats you that's what happens sometimes. 

Also Sedna hardly seems to be a position to be pontificating about "choice". Recall that just a little bit ago she was peppering human bystanders to Alice with live ammo. If Gavia had not had a shield they would all be dead from bullet wounds.

Ellie knows Sedna well enough to conclude she isn't an ordinary human and if Church could do that to her shoulder she'd have to use deadly force just to get him off her so she could get away.  Maybe she wouldn't have done that if she truly knew what she was dealing with, but she didn't, however, I think she acted because Sedna helped her out enough times that she was returning the favor.  Now while I can agree with your reasoning that Sedna destroyed Church's boss' property and Ellie was interfering consider what glimpse we got of Ellie's corpse in the aftermath and all the blood on Church's clothes he used excessive force.  Even if stopping her by deadly force is a part of his programming he could've easily snapped her neck and that would be that.  We didn't get to see what happened in between Ellie's ill-fated rescue followed by Alice's.  Sedna could've begged him to stop and he just continued to brutally kill her which has shaped the opinion she now holds of Church. 

Admittedly when the immortals are in the mood to kill they get those sadistic grins and red eyes, but they can be talked out of it.  Alice ceased her beatdown of Gavia when Ardent pleaded with her and while it took the threat of force to stop Sedna she really wasn't serious about killing Ardent and Gavia and just wanted to irritate Alice.  That doesn't excuse her recklessness which could've got them killed in the crossfire, but I think being an immortal super soldier altered their moral compasses.  Outliving most everyone you know will do that and quite possibly when they or their territory is attacked they go berserk and may not think all that clearly beyond their attack.  Perhaps that's what happened with Church because the only one who can control him is Pate and either he wasn't close enough to the scene to stop him or didn't care to intervene.  Perhaps we will find that he is the most simple minded of the immortals and is only as bad as the person controlling him.   

New here, first post. Whee. I like this comic; it's grown on me a lot since it first started.

I did want to say, I'm glad to see Sedna not severely disabled forever, or incapacitated by feelings of failure. Church's presence has a bit of a Hollywood vibe, so it's nice to see the usual set of cliches not being followed exactly.

Still crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into "Ardent Single-Handedly Saves The Day And Gets The Girl", though.

(And, err, not sure if this is the place for such comments. Hope I'm not goofing up already...)

 

Welcome to the board Tevildo.  I'm hoping that Gavia may save the day since she really hasn't had much to do except cope with her loss.  I'm not entirely sure how or even if there is enough time since Pate is eager enough to get to the space habitat, but some of the posters have theorized that Church is programmed to obey Pate.  Now if someone intelligent can get close enough to crack the code they could take control.  Gavia seems the most likely since Pate could underestimate her.  We don't see her with Ardent and Sedna so perhaps Pate is keeping her close in case he needs to fulfill his threat.  This could be his undoing if Sedna reveals that immortals like her have a weakness she can exploit if she's close enough to activate it.  Moreover, Gavia could further lull Pate into a false sense of security if she pretends to go along with his plans.  In addition to her animosity with Ardent she has every reason to want revenge on the Praeses so it might not take too much convincing for Pate to think he has a willing collaborator. 

[jheartney]

Comic up.

Alice can sense radioactivity by sniffing. If she's a product of the bio-enhancement side, pre-Blink, they've given her capabilities beyond just weaponry. She's like a Pak Protector without the knobby knees.

[BenRG]

In the third Terminator movie, the T-X unit could do DNA sequencing by licking blood. So, a multi-purpose air quality sensor mounted in the nasal cavity isn't so unthinkable.

I'm just hoping that whatever Ardent turned that torch into isn't too powerful. I mean, death by sunburn in a cavern is a really, really embarrassing way to go!

[brasca]

Considering that Ardent may subconsciously influence what he upgrades that's not out of the realm of possibilities.

And I'm going to assume Alice is telling the truth about not detecting any radiation since Church could have that ability too and would warn Pate.  Even if he doesn't if the bunker is toxic it could kill potentially kill anyone baseline or enhanced if they entered it. 

Needless to say if they find the Holy Grail down there he'll probably have someone else take the first step. 

[Kugai]

Let the light show you the way

Hope Jeph has a good week off and look forward to seeing what is in The Bunker.

[Method of Madness]

In the third Terminator movie

What are you talking about? Everyone knows there were only two.

[Tova]

He's just being his usual creative self.

He'll be talking about a Matrix sequel next.

[Tevildo]

I do like the idea of Gavia (eventually) playing a major role in getting them out of this. It seems like a natural progression for her character.

Re: radiation. Was that mentioned earlier? On seeing Alice sniff a bit and proclaim "No sign of contamination", my first impulse was to wonder what the bunker might be contaminated with, aside from obvious things like radioactive fallout.

Nanotech, maybe? Really, really nasty nanotech?

[brasca]

I would think the radioactivity would diminish over the millennia, but this could be an advanced form of it or perhaps whatever is down there was buried under tons of concrete because it's just highly toxic waste.  Pate isn't completely certain what's down there. 

[BenRG]

I don't think that Alice was looking for radiation at all. It's more likely that she was looking for chemical contaminants. After five millennia a lot of synthetic materials could have decayed into poisonous particulate end-products that makes asbestos seem like nothing by comparison. Then there is the possibility of accumulated vaporised hydrocarbons from fuel and lubricants which could fill sealed chambers like a toxic fog.

[cesium133]

Or she could be looking for contaminants that could indicate that someone else has been in there sometime in the past 5000 years.

[Zebediah]

Or it's a code phrase and she wasn't talking to Pate at all, but signalling Sedna.

[JimC]

It's more likely that she was looking for chemical contaminants.

I was just thinking water and mud leaking in from outside.

But TBH I find it difficult to believe in anything mechanical being of any value after 5000 years. Unless of course its somehow maintained. One could hypothesise self renewing nano machines with a care and maintenance function.

[BenRG]

Pate has factored that in; that's why he has Ardent down there.

FWIW, I'm beginning to lean towards this being a 'converging agenda' scenario. Ardent and Gavia were sent to force those on Earth to directly open contact with the Praeses; Pate wants to see them for his own reasons but it is a useful coincidence. I've got the feeling that the Praeses are going to find that Pate is no-one's pawn and that the Pate is going to find that it is a lot harder to dictate terms to a multi-millennia old non-human semi hive-intelligence than it is to a small group of post-humans.

As for our heroes? Alice is going to get Gavia and Sedna fixed up and then they will flee the orbital habitat in an escape pod before the shooting starts. After that, it is a matter of finding the beings responsible for the Blink and getting them to intervene before the Great War starts anew. I'm guessing that the big twist will be that the Night Walker wiped out the Architects; just enough information is left over in the ruined moonbase for Alice to reconstruct their plans going forward and it falls to her... to the woman bred to be a weapon of total war... to find a way to become a maker of peace.

I will shout in rage if Alice ends up, battered and on her last reserves of strength, in front of a holographic avatar of the collective of the sentient AIs that informs her that the equation has changed; the simple fact of her existence has changed it forever. She can end this crisis but she must choose which method she uses:

• DESTROY - Annihilate all post-humans and all advanced technology, including herself, Sedna, Gavia and Ardent and leave the humans in peace to remake their civilisation on their own terms;
• CONTROL - Use nano-tech to become a controlling hub for all of humanity and its children, preventing war by being the single eternal and infinite mind underlying them all; 'Alice' would cease to exist but her hopes, fears, dreams and beliefs would be the framework around which the new order is created and organised;
• SYNTHESIS - Merge all humans and post-humans into a single homogenous group sharing eachother's characteristics and being interlinked together on a fundamental level; the war will end because there would be no more differences to fight over and, to a greater or lesser extent, all will be one.

[Thrudd]

I would think the radioactivity would diminish over the millennia, but this could be an advanced form of it or perhaps whatever is down there was buried under tons of concrete because it's just highly toxic waste.  Pate isn't completely certain what's down there.

Just a reminder on the subject of Radioactivity and it diminishing over time.
- Yes it is true
- Yes some isotopes can go from kill you outright in minutes to meh in a decade or less
- Plutonium - weapons grade - has a half life of less than 25,000 years - so after 5,000 they are all still viable
- BUT some have a half life of millennia
- Then there is that little toy called a breeder reactor that if automated could produce long lived isotopes and be active for a stupid long period of time.

[brasca]

Or it's a code phrase and she wasn't talking to Pate at all, but signalling Sedna.

I hope they had enough time to think that up, but I'm not entirely sure when and how.  Church may have exceptionally good hearing and could detect whispering from long distances and even if he doesn't do they really want to take that risk?  If they intend to communicate secretly passing notes would be the best way to go for now and only when they aren't being watched by Church or Pate.  We don't know what transpired since Pate's ultimatum and Alice breaking through the concrete.  Maybe Pate was feeling overconfident enough to let Alice attend to Sedna's wounds alone while he chatted with Ardent after sobering up, but after that he had Ardent and Sedna stay in that cabin while Alice breached the bunker.  Gavia is noticeably absent, but if I had to guess Pate probably had her close by as an incentive for Alice to not do anything contrary to his plan as well as keep Ardent from escaping.  As such this makes plotting behind Pate's back difficult.   

[retrosteve]

Also none of them wear glasses, Pate does. I think this would imply that being non-baseline carries with it a basic level of feature correction before whatever augmentation is added.

In fact, Pate wears glowing glasses, which like Dale's I took to be a kind of computer display.

[Storel]

I will shout in rage if Alice ends up, battered and on her last reserves of strength, in front of a holographic avatar of the collective of the sentient AIs that informs her that the equation has changed; the simple fact of her existence has changed it forever. She can end this crisis but she must choose which method she uses:

• DESTROY - Annihilate all post-humans and all advanced technology, including herself, Sedna, Gavia and Ardent and leave the humans in peace to remake their civilisation on their own terms;
• CONTROL - Use nano-tech to become a controlling hub for all of humanity and its children, preventing war by being the single eternal and infinite mind underlying them all; 'Alice' would cease to exist but her hopes, fears, dreams and beliefs would be the framework around which the new order is created and organised;
• SYNTHESIS - Merge all humans and post-humans into a single homogenous group sharing eachother's characteristics and being interlinked together on a fundamental level; the war will end because there would be no more differences to fight over and, to a greater or lesser extent, all will be one.

That's an... oddly specific scenario to arouse your rage, plus it sounds (to me) more interesting than enraging. Was that taken wholesale from some anime?

[BenRG]

It's taken from the controversial end of Mass Effect 3. I guess that I really don't want Alice Grove to climax with a 'no matter what you do, you will lose in some way' scenario.

[ChaoSera]

I really don't think Jeph has to rip off ME3 to have his comic come to an ending.