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Reconciliation and Relocation!

More Claire Floof!

Hanners Floof!

DORA Floof!

Steve eats Cereal!

Spathe Ham, Waffles, and Specials!

Something Completely Different!

[Thrudd]

The absence of evidence that something does not exist is not evidence that it exists.

You're absolutely right.
But this is a made-up universe, upon which we can only transfer our 'own world' realities, until we are presented with something that actively stands contrary to what we know.

What we know is, computers store data which they are fed, and unless pre-programmed to do so, will not lose that data...
And logically, what sense does it make to program a Combat AI to have the capacity to *forget* what it's squad mates look like?

(Mind you, that might deny the old oxymoron... "Military Intelligence"   )

There is no evidence that memory loss *does* happen, so that's all we can go with.

In theory but I occasionally have to work with computerized control systems as well as ye old relay logic control interlocks.
Guess what, they do loose data. Sometimes it is just a bad memory cell on a control module or media degradation or just a stray cosmic ray flipping a bit or two [Murphy at play].
So there is that.

Then there is assumptions in general - you know what that word implies right?
A good analyst looks at the evidence first before building a model, not the other way around.

And again, I reiterate, that the absence of evidence that something does not exist is not evidence that it exists.

So with respect to the memory loss and the volatility of memories in an AI we have at the moment exactly ONE data point.

(click to show/hide)

Insert cheeky comments regarding inductive reasoning and creativity

One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. - TWAIN

or I can just throw in an xkdc reference 

[JoeCovenant]

In theory...

Theory is all this is working on.

but I occasionally have to work with computerized control systems as well as ye old relay logic control interlocks.
Guess what, they do loose data. Sometimes it is just a bad memory cell on a control module or media degradation or just a stray cosmic ray flipping a bit or two [Murphy at play].
So there is that.

Which I have stated more than once now, I not only accept, but agree with.

Then there is assumptions in general - you know what that word implies right?

Is this "insult the newb" day , or what??? I find that comment quite insulting.

A good analyst looks at the evidence first before building a model, not the other way around.
And again, I reiterate, that the absence of evidence that something does not exist is not evidence that it exists.

I think you might mean "absence of evidence that something does not exist, is not evidence that it DOES NOT exist"... no?

But that has exactly what to do with any comment I have made?
I have not argued that lack of evidence of anything.
I have argued the only evidence we have is real life versus comic reality... and comic reality has done nothing to counter that.
But until such time as the issue is actually addressed 'in comic', what else have we to draw from?
I would imagine this is why the rules of 'canon' exist... and an absence of evidence that something exists, does not make anything enter comic canon.

But... one last time... (as I am beginning to get annoyed at the casual swipes at my intelligence).

My concern is simply that Bubbles entire trauma did not need to be 'bolstered' by the (to my mind) silly statement that she cannot remember the faces of her squad.
I DEEPLY hope it comes out that those very memories have been deliberately purged by someone... otherwise it is simply not believable.  The suggestion that ANY person, AI or otherwise, would so easily forget the faces of their colleagues... ESPECIALLY those they were in combat with... flies in the face of 'real-life' experience.

I shan't go into too much personal detail here, but I had a great deal of experience when I was younger, discussing 'Living History' matters with WWII veterans. All of them at some point said the same thing. They never forgot those experiences, and can recall their 'lads' as if it were yesterday. My grandfather was one of those, and he was shot in the face (and survived, thankfully).

Even on a personal level. my memory is hardly photographic, but I can plainly see the faces of almost all the kids in my primary seven class... that's over 40 years ago.
If an AI can't retain memories longer than that, for people who are particularly important to them (particularly in the military), is that an acceptable tolerance?
(Particularly when such persons have been created to feel emotions.)

So with respect to the memory loss and the volatility of memories in an AI we have at the moment exactly ONE data point.

Yes... and that is the VERY CRUX of the problem I have with it.
That ONE data point came out of nowhere and counters any physical and intuitive proofs we have IRL.
As the youngsters say these days... End. Of.

[sitnspin]

And logically, what sense does it make to program a Combat AI to have the capacity to *forget* what it's squad mates look like?

AI in the QCverse are not programmed to do anything. They are emergent, same as biological intelligences. Bubbles chose a career in the military. She was not designed to be a soldier, it was a deliberate personal choice on her part.

Besides, it's already been heavily implied that her memory of them was erased, not that she just forgot. That's part of the tragedy of the situation. She had her memory of them and the circumstances around the trauma she wanted to forget erased, but she's still left with the emotional impact of those memories.

[blt]

And logically, what sense does it make to program a Combat AI to have the capacity to *forget* what it's squad mates look like?

AI in the QCverse are not programmed to do anything. They are emergent, same as biological intelligences.

This, and Jeph's comment that they are born and develop in a "creche" until they bootstrap themselves into full intelligence, should really be all there is to say on this debate.  They don't behave like any real world analogue and the answer is Sci-fi handwaving.

I DEEPLY hope it comes out that those very memories have been deliberately purged by someone...

Bubbles asks.
CW provides.
In a way.

[Tova]

Hey Joe, I am sorry about the snark. I can act like a bit of a dickhead sometimes.

I didn't mean to take a swipe at your intelligence though. Honestly, I was actually shooting for 'stubborn bastard.' ... I hope you're laughing now, or I'm really in the shit.

On a more serious note...

I DEEPLY hope it comes out that those very memories have been deliberately purged by someone... otherwise it is simply not believable.  The suggestion that ANY person, AI or otherwise, would so easily forget the faces of their colleagues... ESPECIALLY those they were in combat with... flies in the face of 'real-life' experience.

I shan't go into too much personal detail here, but I had a great deal of experience when I was younger, discussing 'Living History' matters with WWII veterans. All of them at some point said the same thing. They never forgot those experiences, and can recall their 'lads' as if it were yesterday. My grandfather was one of those, and he was shot in the face (and survived, thankfully).

Good point. On the general topic of total recall we may still differ (though I'm not sure one way or the other, just leaning), but here I believe you are 100% correct.

I suspect, though, that the answer is that this was collateral damage to the purging that CW carried out.

Just to reiterate my thoughts on AIs and total recall... I don't believe that AIs 'forgetting' something in the general case means that they have volatile memory necessarily - although they might. But it's more likely that it means that the memory temporarily cannot be brought into the conscious mind.

I think that there probably are real-world analogies for this in current AI and non-AI software, and thus I don't think that an AI without total recall would contradict what we currently know about computers. As an example in the realm of AIs, google 'catastrophic forgetting'. I'm not at all saying that this is the precise mechanism that might be at play in QC AIs, merely that it is conceivable that an AI might forget something.

[JoeCovenant]

Hey Joe, I am sorry about the snark. I can act like a bit of a dickhead sometimes.

I didn't mean to take a swipe at your intelligence though. Honestly, I was actually shooting for 'stubborn bastard.' ... I hope you're laughing now, or I'm really in the shit.

On a more serious note...

I DEEPLY hope it comes out that those very memories have been deliberately purged by someone... otherwise it is simply not believable.  The suggestion that ANY person, AI or otherwise, would so easily forget the faces of their colleagues... ESPECIALLY those they were in combat with... flies in the face of 'real-life' experience.

I shan't go into too much personal detail here, but I had a great deal of experience when I was younger, discussing 'Living History' matters with WWII veterans. All of them at some point said the same thing. They never forgot those experiences, and can recall their 'lads' as if it were yesterday. My grandfather was one of those, and he was shot in the face (and survived, thankfully).

Good point. On the general topic of total recall we may still differ (though I'm not sure one way or the other, just leaning), but here I believe you are 100% correct.

I suspect, though, that the answer is that this was collateral damage to the purging that CW carried out.

Tova...
No more need be said.
It takes a person of enormous magnitude to make the post you just have.

Stubborn? Moi?? NEVVEERRR!!!  (Well... evidence might point to the contrary, but no-one cares about evidence do they??)   

As regards the second part.... I think that's actually all I've been wanting to say, but kept getting sidelined trying to 'support' my belief, but after putting out a bit clumsily, what that actual belief was.

Cheers m'man.

[Is it cold in here?]

Here's another wrinkle. It didn't happen to any of the WW2 veterans mentioned up-thread, but humans are capable of traumatic amnesia. QC AIs work astonishingly like carbon-based intelligences.

That's not what happened to Bubbles but it's a road to understanding how a computer might forget something.

Here's another line of reasoning, related. QC AIs have the same emotions we do including painful ones. They don't all go tragically insane. If they combined perfect recall with having emotion attached to memories then they would go tragically insane.

I can't imagine a life form with the psychological strength to endure perfect recollection of every painful thing that ever happened to them.

[JoeCovenant]

Here's another wrinkle. It didn't happen to any of the WW2 veterans mentioned up-thread, but humans are capable of traumatic amnesia. QC AIs work astonishingly like carbon-based intelligences.

That's not what happened to Bubbles but it's a road to understanding how a computer might forget something.

Here's another line of reasoning, related. QC AIs have the same emotions we do including painful ones. They don't all go tragically insane. If they combined perfect recall with having emotion attached to memories then they would go tragically insane.

I can't imagine a life form with the psychological strength to endure perfect recollection of every painful thing that ever happened to them.

But isn't it true that it's our most painful memories which are the clearest?
(I'm POSITIVE I've read that somewhere before...)

ETA: This isn't what I previously read, but it's the first thing I found... http://www.livescience.com/49071-why-painful-memories-linger.html

As opposed to, say, the memory of physical pain, (which we can remember but not... not sure how to put it... clearly recall?)

Either way...
I suppose that taking 'human' experience, which I agree 'can' sit on both sides of the memory scale, and translating that to AI experience (which is fictional and differs for each iteration of universes they inhabit - but let's stick with this one..   ) then I can certainly concede that IF AI brains are a perfect mirror of human brains (and putting aside my belief that they can't/shouldn't be ) then such traumatic amnesia is possible... for specific instances... but surely not seen as the 'norm'?

But... for such amnesia to wipe out ALL memories, of every day spent with said colleagues... well, I guess that's where the stubborn bugger side of me rises.
 

(ETA again... Why isn't Bubbles in therapy!?!?!?)

[Storel]

I suppose that taking 'human' experience, which I agree 'can' sit on both sides of the memory scale, and translating that to AI experience (which is fictional and differs for each iteration of universes they inhabit - but let's stick with this one..   ) then I can certainly concede that IF AI brains are a perfect mirror of human brains (and putting aside my belief that they can't/shouldn't be ) then such traumatic amnesia is possible... for specific instances... but surely not seen as the 'norm'?

But... for such amnesia to wipe out ALL memories, of every day spent with said colleagues... well, I guess that's where the stubborn bugger side of me rises.

Wasn't that the whole point of what Corpse Witch's "operation" was supposed to do to Bubbles's memories? IIRC correctly, Bubbles said that after the memories were edited she still had an overall "outline" of what happened, but all the details that were driving her crazy were gone. So now that the memories turn out to be permanently gone -- well, nothing has changed for Bubbles: she still has the "big picture", but none of the fine details. As I understand it, Bubbles didn't lose any memories accidentally, it was all because of what Corpse Witch did.

[Is it cold in here?]

But... for such amnesia to wipe out ALL memories, of every day spent with said colleagues... well, I guess that's where the stubborn bugger side of me rises.
 

(ETA again... Why isn't Bubbles in therapy!?!?!?)

Lots of good question, thank you Joe.

There was a hint that Bubbles tried therapy and gave up. It's where she yelled at Faye for trying to help and said "Better minds than yours have tried". Maybe she's better prepared to make a go of it now.

As far as the scope of traumatic amnesia goes, it's not unheard of for a PTSD therapist to say something like "some of my clients have told me they don't remember anything from their childhood".

And it turns out I'm using the phrase "traumatic amnesia" wrong. I'm not sure what to Google for to find the phenomenon I'm describing.

[Gyrre]

I suppose that taking 'human' experience, which I agree 'can' sit on both sides of the memory scale, and translating that to AI experience (which is fictional and differs for each iteration of universes they inhabit - but let's stick with this one..   ) then I can certainly concede that IF AI brains are a perfect mirror of human brains (and putting aside my belief that they can't/shouldn't be ) then such traumatic amnesia is possible... for specific instances... but surely not seen as the 'norm'?

But... for such amnesia to wipe out ALL memories, of every day spent with said colleagues... well, I guess that's where the stubborn bugger side of me rises.

Wasn't that the whole point of what Corpse Witch's "operation" was supposed to do to Bubbles's memories? IIRC correctly, Bubbles said that after the memories were edited she still had an overall "outline" of what happened, but all the details that were driving her crazy were gone. So now that the memories turn out to be permanently gone -- well, nothing has changed for Bubbles: she still has the "big picture", but none of the fine details. As I understand it, Bubbles didn't lose any memories accidentally, it was all because of what Corpse Witch did.

Technically it was still accidental. Corpsewitch botched the process and deleted the memories instead of merely partitioning them.

[Neko_Ali]

Well, that's what she said when faced with an angry Bubbles. It's possible that CW was never capable of portioning the memories, or for some reason deliberately deleted instead of locking them away. Then she told Bubbles they were locked away and could only be recovered if Bubbles served her.

[JoeCovenant]

I suppose that taking 'human' experience, which I agree 'can' sit on both sides of the memory scale, and translating that to AI experience (which is fictional and differs for each iteration of universes they inhabit - but let's stick with this one..   ) then I can certainly concede that IF AI brains are a perfect mirror of human brains (and putting aside my belief that they can't/shouldn't be ) then such traumatic amnesia is possible... for specific instances... but surely not seen as the 'norm'?

But... for such amnesia to wipe out ALL memories, of every day spent with said colleagues... well, I guess that's where the stubborn bugger side of me rises.

Wasn't that the whole point of what Corpse Witch's "operation" was supposed to do to Bubbles's memories? IIRC correctly, Bubbles said that after the memories were edited she still had an overall "outline" of what happened, but all the details that were driving her crazy were gone. So now that the memories turn out to be permanently gone -- well, nothing has changed for Bubbles: she still has the "big picture", but none of the fine details. As I understand it, Bubbles didn't lose any memories accidentally, it was all because of what Corpse Witch did.

Well, now we're back into the territory of "Bubbles memories are those of a machine which can be manipulated like files..."
Which I was being beaten over the head for daring to suggest further up the thread! 

However... I can't say I ever thought that Bubbles' sequestered memories were of every single interaction she ever had with her squadmates?
Simply that one attack... which she described very well... while having no memory of it... which started this whoooole shebang!

[JoeCovenant]

Well, that's what she said when faced with an angry Bubbles. It's possible that CW was never capable of portioning the memories, or for some reason deliberately deleted instead of locking them away. Then she told Bubbles they were locked away and could only be recovered if Bubbles served her.

Possibly.

But even Spookybot thought that CW was 'capable' of doing so...

[Tova]

There was a hint that Bubbles tried therapy and gave up. It's where she yelled at Faye for trying to help and said "Better minds than yours have tried". Maybe she's better prepared to make a go of it now.

As far as the scope of traumatic amnesia goes, it's not unheard of for a PTSD therapist to say something like "some of my clients have told me they don't remember anything from their childhood".

And it turns out I'm using the phrase "traumatic amnesia" wrong. I'm not sure what to Google for to find the phenomenon I'm describing.

Maybe what you're thinking of is dissociative amnesia.

Of specific relevance to this discussion is the following extract (emphasis in italics is mine):

In generalized amnesia, patients forget their identify and life history—eg, who they are, where they went, to whom they spoke, and what they did, said, thought, experienced, and felt. Some patients can no longer access well-learned skills and lose formerly known information about the world. Generalized dissociative amnesia is rare; it is more common among combat veterans, people who have been sexually assaulted, and people experiencing extreme stress or conflict. Onset is usually sudden.

[TheEvilDog]

[sitnspin]

Maybe what you're thinking of is dissociative amnesia.

Of specific relevance to this discussion is the following extract (emphasis in italics is mine):

In generalized amnesia, patients forget their identify and life history—eg, who they are, where they went, to whom they spoke, and what they did, said, thought, experienced, and felt. Some patients can no longer access well-learned skills and lose formerly known information about the world. Generalized dissociative amnesia is rare; it is more common among combat veterans, people who have been sexually assaulted, and people experiencing extreme stress or conflict. Onset is usually sudden.

That feels eerily familiar. I have a substantial amount of memory loss myself. Food for thought.

[Tova]

You don't have to read, Monsieur Chien Méchant. :-p

[Morituri]

It gets worse, you know... 

Bubbles waking up from CW meddling in her head was in an emotional state that could easily be tricked into long-ish term service to Corpse Witch.

I can't help thinking Corpse Witch would find an AI in that exact emotional state to be a wonderful resource;  Something to be saved, something that might be used more than once.  And CW has (or had) access to a complete shop for constructing fighting robot chassis.

So now I find myself wondering whether there's a copy of Bubbles' mind in that state, which CW might have intended to load into another body if Bubbles should ever be removed from her service.

Indeed, I find myself wondering whether Bubbles is even really the same AI who did the military service she partially remembers, or a copy.

Mostly I find myself wondering this because I'm imagining the mind-screw storyline in which Bubbles discovers and meets the original Bubbles whom she's a copy of, or the subsequent Bubbles who's a copy of her.

[Is it cold in here?]

That makes total compelling sense. It would be SOP to make a backup before working on a computer.

Arrogant Architeuthis questioned Corpse Witch about the existence of backups and it would have been clearly in CW's self-interest to hand them over if they'd existed.

So, either Corpse Witch lied under torture or she failed to follow normal maintenance procedures. Either possibility is odd.

[JoeCovenant]

That makes total compelling sense. It would be SOP to make a backup before working on a computer.

Arrogant Architeuthis questioned Corpse Witch about the existence of backups and it would have been clearly in CW's self-interest to hand them over if they'd existed.

So, either Corpse Witch lied under torture or she failed to follow normal maintenance procedures. Either possibility is odd.

As odd as Bubbles' selective memory??

DON'T HIT ME !!!!!!

 

[Tova]

It seems unsurprising to me that CW is a bit fly-by-night and thus wouldn't bother with standard operating procedure.